The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Makoeyes987]

I'm so fucking fed up with having to come up in here and repeat myself. Infractions will now be handed out generously as well as thread bans.

If you can't play by the rules, then this is a waste of time. There will be no offhanded insulting, bringing up other forums, meta-discussion, or any more off topic posting here. I've been lenient enough but apparently the minute I am, shit flares up as usual.

Consider this back to square one. Debate the LTD civilly, 100% on topic, and without anymore off handed nontopic posting, period. I don't want it anywhere in the post at all. The LTD is all that will be discussed here to the letter.

From this point on, the rules will be enforced to the letter. Do not test me or expect anymore leniency. Adhere to the rules or suffer the inevitable consequence. Thank you, now carry on.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

From now on, I'm merely going to copy/paste this answer in instead of answering each of your questions individually, because the same answer applies to most things you guys bring up.

No, you won't. Not only is that spammy, but it's disrespectful to the point of being borderline trolling. You're not going to do it or you'll be moderated, if I have to do it myself.

We think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.

Except the Highwind scene wasn't labeled as such. You saying that will not make it true. That part of the above paragraph I quoted that's in bold? That's called a lie.

And it's only logical that SE wouldn't show his picture after his demise unless it happened in the game.

And it isn't logical that SE would show only the high affection Highwind scene in the 10th AU's story summary unless it happened? Or that only it would be included on the Impressive Scenes page unless it happened? That it alone would be in the Memorial Album script? On the "For the One I Love" page?

So being shown as an important scene in ONE book out of how many books in the Compilation means it's canon?

The 10th AU, the U20 Scenario, and the Memorial Album are more than one book. Right now, you're being like Gimli in the "Return of the King" movie when Legolas took down that mumakil and all the Haradrim on it: "That still only counts as one!"

No, Tifa calls it "your room" in CoT - not "your office" - when she tells him to go "drink in your room". Sounds like he sleeps there to me.

Tifa tells him to go drink in another room. She does not say "your room." There is no possessive particle. You know this. You've been told this countless times.

And, yes, the narrative voice of the story itself refers to the room only as "Cloud's office" on one occasion, and "the room Cloud used as an office" on another. Never "Cloud's room."

Without saying who. Furthermore, the sensai of one of our CloudxAerith forum members says that it makes no sense to use the word "koibito" without saying who the relationship is with.

The word "koibito" on its own does not indicate that a relationship is established, and one can identify someone as a koibito without having to say whose they are.

In any case, Nomura did use the word that way, so, uh ... what?

There's a whole bunch of people who frankly think your evidence is full of crap - it's not just me.

And plenty of people still deny evolution. Doesn't mean they aren't still wrong.

I'm so fucking fed up with having to come up in here and repeat myself. Infractions will now be handed out generously as well as thread bans.

Just an idea: while being willfully ignorant shouldn't be a moderatable offense, ignoring people's comments and straight up lying in a debate should be.

 

[Vendel]

No, it's what you conveniently want to see. The actual context is Cloud surrounded by flowers that represent Aerith. Nomura even said they went to film that part in Hawaii because there were large fields of yellow and white flowers like the ones in Aerith's church. So Cloud is surrounded by Aerith - Tifa is nothing more than a sideline, so to speak.

I'm not sure how Cloud can be surrounded by Aerith. She isn't there. And isn't the last scenes of the movie Cloud with Denzel at Zack's grave site and Zack's sword in the church?

Also wouldn't a "C/A ending" kind of defeat the purpose of having Aerith and Zack walk into the light at the end of the movie?

 

[Dashell]

Wait, wait...I missed this on my first read:

Bwuahahahahahaha. Okay, first, can I get a source on the flowers being the reason they filmed in Hawaii? Pretty sure that had fuckall to do with it.
.

In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87

That's pretty close anyway

 

[Master Bates]

@CR, I was gone for 3 days (almost) while replaying my FFT so I didn't have time to reply to you but I will because I don't want you to feel ignored. I originally had a teal deer present for you but it disappeared all of a sudden. Didn't know how it happened so meh... sucks to be me, I guess. Fucking hell. But seeing as most peeps here had already answered you, I'll just make this one brief (well, I'll try).

I was talking about the feelings of love there. But okay. You saw it that way, fine by me.

But the Simba/Mufasa example was used to demonstrate that the C/A quote (she lives on in his consciousness) is not automatically romantic. And you even used S/M to reinforce your C/A romance, which just hurts your case.

I asked you how you got that, then you ask of me another thing.
Answer what I ask you first then ask of me what you want.

No. You first made the implications of romance out of sorrow and grief without further substantiating it. I am asking you now.

So now we ignore and misinterpret things?

I will not beat around the Obama bush and will say, either willfully or inadvertently, yes. Zack and the "she lives on in his consciousness" quote are two of the many instances for each case, respectively.

Tell me this then: because Cloud and Tifa are living together in CoT, then the story canon is the HW scene? Is that it? Without SE ever saying that it IS the story canon?

No, that is not exactly it. If you had been paying attention to Ryu, Tres, Que, et al, then you will know why. I don't feel like parroting them right now.

SE made up for it by making Aerith able to appear to Cloud.

Which means jackshit.

I think you meant symbolism here. If you really meant an idiom, show me what idiom was used and how it was used.

And this here is why I miss Hitobito. As Ryu (thanks btw, now I don't have to dig for Hito's post about this) have already explained to you about the original Japanese idiom, I assume you already know what I mean here.

Are you taking it literally? That's just great, because I'm not. I think in one of my next posts, I put in "spiritual" there so no one would claim that Aerith lives inside Cloud's physical body.
This just makes your statement insulting. If you keep doing that, I'm withdrawing from my debate with you.

Excuuuuuuuuuse me, princess? Just where in this part of my previous post did it sound insulting? Because I never believed Aerith is a parasite, I was asking you if that was what you meant because damn hell I seriously don't know what you were trying to convey here. I am utterly lost. It was either literal or figurative and anyone with a sane mind should know that the said quote was figurative. The metaphysics of the FFVII world disagrees with your continuing "spiritual" bond, thus it could simply mean Aerith will never be forgotten.

And I dunno... if you find this insulting then you are free to withdraw because then I can revert to playing with my FFT AND watching Vendel having a blast in the LTD.

But honestly CR, I wasn't even thinking of insulting you. Like I said, I like you and I like you more than the other Cleriths (will not be mentioning names) despite how I find some of your points and tactics questionable because then I can just give you the excuse of not having played the game, not having read all of the novellas, and therefore not having the grasp of the entire context of the narrative.

Simple questions can be answered in a simple way as well.

I will reply however the fuck I want.

SIDE COMMENT (just so I can respond to some of the new posts):

From the insistent "No Canon Couple", ending with:

Only in your opinion, which proves nothing. In my opinion, the ending clearly focuses on CloudxAerith.

Am I seriously expected to believe this shit?

EDIT:

You just contradicted yourself - one happens and the other does not? Sorry, but the LA version has happened several times while I've played the game.

I'm sorry but your game is not the canon storyline. So is mine during my first playthrough where Yuffie and Vincent weren't in my party.

Putting one in the summary means that it CAN happen, not that it DOES happen. If SE wanted the HA version to happen all the time, then they would have made it non-optional.

Putting one in the summary means it DID happen.

To the rest of the post:

 

[Dashell]

Except the Highwind scene wasn't labeled as such. You saying that will not make it true. That part of the above paragraph I quoted that's in bold? That's called a lie.

She's talking about the Deviation on the separate page, but at any rate didn't you say Terra's scene also had this?

 

[Lady Lifestream]

(Just to have said it, I'll be absent for - well - eleven days or so. ...And, yes, I'll come back xD [I can already hear the "Ohnoes" ;P]
So, this will be my last post for roughly two weeks.)

Claim: The Low Scene was said to be apathetic.
In fact, the conversation is said to be apathetic - and, as said above, apathetic can also mean "no interest involved".

Claim: The High Affection Scene is canon because it was mentioned in some playthroughs/story books.
And almost every version had a mention that the scene can have a different version.

Claim: Cloud and Tifa are confirmed to be in love because the love page lists them, and Cloud and Aerith aren't canon though the love page lists them.
Again.
Both scenes are said to be optional.

Claim: Aerith's death was portrayed above the High Affection Scene at the "Impressive Scenes" section.
Oh.
Well, then I was wrong, I'm sorry.
False information.

Claim: Aerith's date isn't default/canon because it's said to be open to the player's choice and because Tifa's date was used in Cloud's profile.
First, it is at least said to be:
* the usual choice if the player plays the game "normally"
* default
And if you count Dismantled, then she even says that she remembers the date. And now please no saying "Dismantled is too old to be canon" because FFVII is even older. The only thing that would count is the mention of SE not saying anything about it later, but I don't think something becomes un-canon because it's never mentioned later.

Claim: Tifa really adresses the stars instead of the planet.
Thank you for the information^^

Claim: LL's own personal non-evidenced thoughts about the game do not fit into this topic.
Hell.
I was asked to do this, and I first refused.
When I was asked again and again, then I provided an answer with an extra warning that said that this is my own view of things.
Of course it has nothing to do with a debate that involves only facts and no other matters, but I was asked to do this and I wanted to provide that in hope that one will never ask me again.

Claim: Sharing of romantic feelings happened for sure and the Love-Page doesn't say anything against it.
Again.
There is a link to a side that says that you can get both versions and that no one is preferred/canon/default/the one that will always happen in the game's canonity.

Claim: Cloud still holds romantic feelings for Tifa since their childhood and that was said to be true in the lifestream.
Is it the same in the original quote?

Claim: SE didn't say that mutual feelings of romance were shared in the High Version.
They say that if Tifa's affection is high, then they will convey feelings of desire for each other.

Claim: LL misquotes several quotes; therefore, they are equivocal.
While it's true that I am too lazy to research the exact version of the Highwind quotes, they still remain to be equivocal.

Claim: Nomura only said that players can speculate about the stuff they did not already cover.
Okay, then - did he already state CloTi?
In your opinion, yes, because you say that he did already prove that with the Highwind quotes.
Okay, then why does he say he hasn't got any clue if Cloud and Tifa were together in a romantic relationship after FFVII? SE did already make it canon, right? And it's blatantly obvious to most of the players? So why hasn't he got any clue?

Claim: Tifa is said to be someones beloved.
Wasn't there a discussion about using official translated quotes or not? In fact, this was translated as 'sweetheart'. No big difference, but still.

Claim: It was said that Tifa belongs to Cloud.
No. It was said it was sure they would be together at the same place.

Claim: It was said that Cloud and Tifa have a future together.
And I guess this necessarily indicates romance? I thought there should be only quotes used that indicate romance going on between them for sure.

Claim: If LL just prefers C/A without any evidence, it doesn't make sense that she tries to deny C/T.
I want to make sure that the canon couple is up to the player's choice, not anything else.
If you can tell me that Cloud loves Tifa to the present time for sure, then I will agree that this love is canon.
However, I haven't seen anything stating that for sure, so unless you got something more, the choice will be up to the player, meaning there is no canon couple to be decided.

Claim: LL said that the Love page doesn't count for the HA scene.
No, LL has said that both - the Aerith date and the High Affection Scene - are romantic.
While both scenes are up to the players choice at the love page, the date was at least said to be default and the usual choice.
The High Affection Scene wasn't said to be default/canon/the usual choice.

Claim: LL contradicted herself in saying that C/A actions could have revealed romance without words and then saying that, if nothing is stated, it didn't happen.
Nono, this was no contradiction.
The claim was that Cloud and Aerith didn't say anything about romance towards each other.
My claim is that they could have done this through actions maybe.
However, there is no quote and no game line stating such, so if there is nothing stated, it didn't happen.
This is no contradiction, this is just a possibility with no evidence that likely didn't happen.

Claim: LL has misremembered "turned down" instead of "toned down".
No, LL has made a failure.
You would wonder, but LL actually knows it's said to be "toned down" but has just written wrongly.

Claim: Rinoa and Squall are childhood friends.
...No?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87

That's pretty close anyway

Yes, I remember that. However, it wasn't THE reason they filmed the live action shots or chose Hawaii. It was a lovely happenstance. The quote I responded to made it sound like THAT'S the reason for the location choice, and it's not. Of course there must have been a shitstorm after I went to bed because a ton of posts are mia. But thank you for providing the quote as I still haven't delved into the abyss beneath my bed for my FFVII obsessive crap.

LL--together in the same place?? Are you being serious? "I knew one thing for sure, Cloud would be with Tifa. Everyone would be where they belong." (paraphrasing Nojima) You truthfully and seriously interpret that to mean they would be in the same place?

The claim was that Cloud and Aerith didn't say anything about romance towards each other.
My claim is that they could have done this through actions maybe.
However, there is no quote and no game line stating such, so if there is nothing stated, it didn't happen.
This is no contradiction, this is just a possibility with no evidence that likely didn't happen.

Soooo... according to what you just said: C/A didn't happen. Uhm...kay. Thanks.

 

[Marle]

(Just to have said it, I'll be absent for - well - eleven days or so. ...And, yes, I'll come back xD [I can already hear the "Ohnoes" ;P]
So, this will be my last post for roughly two weeks.)

Aww, okies. We will miss debating with you here! Come back soon!

Claim: Aerith's date isn't default/canon because it's said to be open to the player's choice and because Tifa's date was used in Cloud's profile.
First, it is at least said to be:
* the usual choice if the player plays the game "normally"
* default
And if you count Dismantled, then she even says that she remembers the date. And now please no saying "Dismantled is too old to be canon" because FFVII is even older. The only thing that would count is the mention of SE not saying anything about it later, but I don't think something becomes un-canon because it's never mentioned later.

I think Aerith's date makes sense, story-wise, too. It helps add to her character, especially since her time is so limited. So her date being canon doesn't bother me at all and heck, I'm totally down to believe it. I'm pretty sure you can get her date and the HA HW scene (correct me if I'm wrong but I could swear I've done this in one of my play throughs before). And to me, both those events just fit into the story so much better than Barret's date/Yuffie's date and the LA HW scene.

Even if the HA HW scene didn't have all those quotes backing it up, how can a night of rejection/apathy fit into the greater scheme of things? It just...doesn't make sense and it paints Cloud in this douche bag light that I dislike so much. Not to mention, makes Tifa seem really stupid. :T

Claim: Sharing of romantic feelings happened for sure and the Love-Page doesn't say anything against it.
Again.
There is a link to a side that says that you can get both versions and that no one is preferred/canon/default/the one that will always happen in the game's canonity.

There is? I know you'll be gone for a while, but could anyone get a quote for that? I'm just curious. I thought I'd scrutinized that page beyond oblivion already. :T

Claim: LL contradicted herself in saying that C/A actions could have revealed romance without words and then saying that, if nothing is stated, it didn't happen.
Nono, this was no contradiction.
The claim was that Cloud and Aerith didn't say anything about romance towards each other.
My claim is that they could have done this through actions maybe.
However, there is no quote and no game line stating such, so if there is nothing stated, it didn't happen.
This is no contradiction, this is just a possibility with no evidence that likely didn't happen.

So, it's your opinion?

Claim: Rinoa and Squall are childhood friends.
...No?

My bad. I meant Selphie/Irvine.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

She's talking about the Deviation on the separate page, but at any rate didn't you say Terra's scene also had this?

I know where the Deviation is mentioned -- she literally just said it's on the "For the One I Love" page:

We think the FTOIL page actually said that who Cloud loves is up to player choice. There was a picture of both CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa under a title saying that love develops between the protagonists. Both the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa pictures were labeled as having Divergences. They are the ONLY pictures on the page labeled as having Divergences.

To your question: no, Terra's scene didn't have a Deviation included, but the scene itself is completely optional. Shadow living or dying on the Floating Continent has a Deviation, though, but his survival is shown throughout the rest of the story summary, and in the Impressive Scenes section for FFVI (Terra's scene shows up here too).

Claim: The High Affection Scene is canon because it was mentioned in some playthroughs/story books.
And almost every version had a mention that the scene can have a different version.

Actually, it's not nearly every mention.

Here are the mentions:

-In Tifa's UO profile
-In the UO's Story Playback
-In the U20's Story Playback

The non-mentions:

-The U10's Story Playback
-The Impressive Scenes section
-The "For the One I Love" page
-The Memorial Album script

So, you be wrong.

Claim: Cloud and Tifa are confirmed to be in love because the love page lists them, and Cloud and Aerith aren't canon though the love page lists them.
Again.
Both scenes are said to be optional.

Aerith's name isn't anywhere on the page, and the caption beneath the screenshot of her didn't deem it important to mention her, while it did find it important to say that the scene was up to player control. Read the writing on the page itself.

And, again, no the page does not speak of an optional outcome for the Highwind scene. Don't just parrot Anastar on this. She's lying. Don't let somebody else make you look bad.

Claim: Aerith's date isn't default/canon because it's said to be open to the player's choice and because Tifa's date was used in Cloud's profile.

That's not the claim, but thanks for misrepresenting what I said.

I mentioned Tifa's date being in Cloud's profile because it's ironic given how much a screenshot of Aerith's date gets harped over for being on the "For the One I Love" page.

Anyway, the reason there's doubt about who Cloud's canon date was is because SE is altogether inconsistent on the matter. As you mentioned, one of the stories in the Kaitai Shinsho says it was Aerith. Also, the Aerith version of the date is referenced by Aerith's card in the Final Fantasy Art Museum trading card collection as though it took place, given that its quotes from Aerith includes her "No, Cloud... I'm searching for you..." line, along with the parenthetical notation, "(Said to Cloud during their first and last date)" -- so Aerith's date looks pretty tightly sealed up, right?

But then, a screenshot of Tifa's date is featured in Cloud's U10 profile alongside the statement that Cloud was oblivious to Tifa and Aerith's feelings for him, while yet another screenshot of the date is included in Tifa's profile from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character guide, along with the caption: "She is shy when it comes to love. She's getting better at plainly expressing her feelings to Cloud, though, and can do so more easily now."

Added to that, there's no screenshot of or reference to Aerith's date in either the 10th Anniversary Ultimania's profiles or its Story Playback section, and none of the profiles from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character make reference to the event either -- not even in Cloud or Aerith's profiles.

Meanwhile, then you have the "For the One I Love" page's focus on the player's choices determining the outcome of the date, as well as the U20 Scenario's further focus on the date mechanics instead of a particular outcome.

Finally, the script from the Memorial Album -- in both its 1999 and 2003 editions -- included Aerith, Tifa and Yuffie's dates, with Tifa's getting slightly more attention, as the only one featured in the scene where Cait Sith's theft of the Keystone is discovered.

So, SE is pretty nuetral in their treatment of the date scene. At any rate, the most recent mentionings have been, and their overall position is decidedly so.

And if you count Dismantled, then she even says that she remembers the date. And now please no saying "Dismantled is too old to be canon" because FFVII is even older. The only thing that would count is the mention of SE not saying anything about it later, but I don't think something becomes un-canon because it's never mentioned later.

It does raise concerns, though. Even that FFVII Snowboarding game got mentioned in the 10th AU. SE has even taken the time in one of the U20 Ultimanias to say that Last Order and DoC Lost Episode aren't part of the Compilation, but they haven't taken time to include mention of the stories in the Kaitai Shinsho ever again.

As I said above, I don't have any opposition to the stories being canon (I even think it fits the story best that Aerith's date is canon), but it's hard to pin down SE's position on the matter.

Claim: Tifa really adresses the stars instead of the planet.
Thank you for the information^^

No problem.

Claim: Cloud still holds romantic feelings for Tifa since their childhood and that was said to be true in the lifestream.
Is it the same in the original quote?

In Japanese? Cloud's subconscious told Tifa that Cloud would definitely be delighted to hear about Tifa's feelings.

Claim: LL misquotes several quotes; therefore, they are equivocal.
While it's true that I am too lazy to research the exact version of the Highwind quotes, they still remain to be equivocal.

Do more than say this. Show us why the 10th AU's story summary is equivocal when the entire book doesn't mention the date mechanics. Show us why the Memorial Album script is equivocal. Show us why the Impressive Scenes page is equivocal.

Don't just claim it, show it.

Claim: Nomura only said that players can speculate about the stuff they did not already cover.
Okay, then - did he already state CloTi?
In your opinion, yes, because you say that he did already prove that with the Highwind quotes.
Okay, then why does he say he hasn't got any clue if Cloud and Tifa were together in a romantic relationship after FFVII? SE did already make it canon, right? And it's blatantly obvious to most of the players? So why hasn't he got any clue?

Nomura was not the writer, so I don't know why you keep coming back to him. In any case, a quote from before the Compilation got into full swing (one that doesn't even jibe with his later statement that Tifa is someone's koibito in AC/C) is not somehow definitive, forever and ever proof that the matter could never change.

For all we know, at the time he said that, the canon outcome to the Highwind scene had not yet been decided. You have to remember that it was before the Reunion Files and the FFVII Ultimanias.

Anyway, nobody said it was blatantly obvious on its own, in the absence of all the newer materials.

Claim: Tifa is said to be someones beloved.
Wasn't there a discussion about using official translated quotes or not? In fact, this was translated as 'sweetheart'. No big difference, but still.

The official translations in the Reunion Files aren't always perfect (e.g. Cloud's referred to as a "rookie SOLDIER" when he killed Seph in Nibelheim instead of a "rookie soldier"; examining the original Japanese on the page reveals the error), so it's necessary to go beyond them at times. "Koibito" has a specific meaning, so it's good that it was checked into.

 

[Dashell]

To your question: no, Terra's scene didn't have a Deviation included, but the scene itself is completely optional. Shadow living or dying on the Floating Continent has a Deviation, though, but his survival is shown throughout the rest of the story summary, and in the Impressive Scenes section for FFVI (Terra's scene shows up here too).

Ah okay, that last part is what I must have been thinking of.

The non-mentions:

-The U10's Story Playback
-The Impressive Scenes section
-The "For the One I Love" page
-The Memorial Album script

Don't forget the CC Ultimania, the art cards, and I if I wanted to be really difficult you could throw in the creator interview in the beginning of the U10

 

[ClerithRaven]

@CR, I was gone for 3 days (almost) while replaying my FFT so I didn't have time to reply to you but I will because I don't want you to feel ignored. I originally had a teal deer present for you but it disappeared all of a sudden. Didn't know how it happened so meh... sucks to be me, I guess. Fucking hell. But seeing as most peeps here had already answered you, I'll just make this one brief (well, I'll try).

Err. Will what you say differ from their replies? If nothing much is different, I might not reply to the rest and you can refer to my reply to them.

But the Simba/Mufasa example was used to demonstrate that the C/A quote (she lives on in his consciousness) is not automatically romantic. And you even used S/M to reinforce your C/A romance, which just hurts your case.

You (general) started with it, so I used Simba and Mufasa's case to show that living on in one's consciousness necessitates a deep love for said person. But, you focused on them being father and son rather than why I stated it.

And as I have said, you saw it that way, fine by me.

No. You first made the implications of romance out of sorrow and grief without further substantiating it. I am asking you now.

I asked a question and you replied with another question.
You could've answered me then asked me.
That's all I'm saying.

I will not beat around the Obama bush and will say, either willfully or inadvertently, yes. Zack and the "she lives on in his consciousness" quote are two of the many instances for each case, respectively.

And how, pray tell, did I misinterpret those?

No, that is not exactly it. If you had been paying attention to Ryu, Tres, Que, et al, then you will know why. I don't feel like parroting them right now.

Good. Because I do not need multiple posts saying the same thing.
It just adds to what I have to read and reply too, which is time-consuming.

Which means jackshit.

Ah. Yes. Of course.

And this here is why I miss Hitobito. As Ryu (thanks btw, now I don't have to dig for Hito's post about this) have already explained to you about the original Japanese idiom, I assume you already know what I mean here.

I think I asked Ryu for said phrase, and I can't check into it now. I haven't read the rest of the posts. I will when I get home back in the province.

Excuuuuuuuuuse me, princess?

Oh great. This is not an insult?

Just where in this part of my previous post did it sound insulting? Because I never believed Aerith is a parasite, I was asking you if that was what you meant because damn hell I seriously don't know what you were trying to convey here. I am utterly lost. It was either literal or figurative and anyone with a sane mind should know that the said quote was figurative. The metaphysics of the FFVII world disagrees with your continuing "spiritual" bond, thus it could simply mean Aerith will never be forgotten.

Your question was rude in itself.
And what did I say that makes YOU feel lost about it?
Did I ever say anything that makes YOU think I was talking about said quote literally?

And I dunno... if you find this insulting then you are free to withdraw because then I can revert to playing with my FFT AND watching Vendel having a blast in the LTD.

Ever heard of three strikes?

But honestly CR, I wasn't even thinking of insulting you. Like I said, I like you and I like you more than the other Cleriths (will not be mentioning names) despite how I find some of your points and tactics questionable because then I can just give you the excuse of not having played the game, not having read all of the novellas, and therefore not having the grasp of the entire context of the narrative.

I appreciate you liking me despite you questioning my points and tactics.
Seriously. I just present my points. I don't have tactics. I don't have standards. I just speak out for what I support. It's as simple as that.
Ah. Context again.

I will reply however the fuck I want.

And here I thought if I was polite, people would do the same.
Silly me.


x-x-x-x-x

This is all I have time for now. I'll reply to everyone else when I get more time. Like LL, it may take a week or two. Hopefully I could drop by for a short while sometimes in between.
You go on and enjoy yourselves.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

You (general) started with it,

I'm pretty sure I, in general, started it. As a rebuttal to the Clerith assertion that 'lives in him' is romantic. I have no qualms with it being of deep affection or even guilt, but the phrasing is not implicitly romantic. Ala, S/M.

so I used Simba and Mufasa's case to show that living on in one's consciousness necessitates a deep love for said person

While I agree that there's affection and love, I do not agree that it is romantic, again. You using Simba/Mufasa only goes to reinforce that, actually. It's a very bad Clerith example.

But, you focused on them being father and son rather than why I stated it.

Because they are father and son, and yet the statement that Mufasa lives on in Simba's heart is true. The point is, that S/M negate any inherent/implicit claim that the phrasing is romantic. It's not.

Oh great. This is not an insult?

No, it isn't. Condescending, yeah probably. Fucktard. That's an insult I don't think it was meant to be insulting, but since I wasn't the one saying it, I'll let you two hash it out...

I don't have standards.

In a debate you kinda need them. Consistent ones, at that.

I just speak out for what I support. It's as simple as that.

And we appreciate you for it.

Ah. Context again.

Context. Always.

And here I thought if I was polite, people would do the same.
Silly me.

This is perception. A lot of people find me abrasive (shocking, I know) but none of my recent comments have been in a realm that I would consider impolite, and none I've read recently are there either. Some debaters (especially those having hashed this out a billion times) are more aggressive than others. It's not being impolite to respond in a different manner than addressed. It is exceedingly impolite to ignore or slander an argument or flat out lie or name-call. However, if you feel insulted or that we're being rude, please address a Mod. If it's a Mod being a jackass, tell Mako. He loves to smack everyone around now and again.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I'll address just this:

Oh great. This is not an insult?

LOL, calm down, CR. It isn't. MB used the most infamous line from (even more infamous) The Legend of Zelda cartoon. It's humorous. XD

And for reference:

*roars in laughter*



OK, as you were.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay, getting straight to the point..
I'm not going to call anybody out. Somebody should have picked up on it, they didn't. That isn't my problem.

Yes, actually, it is. If you want to complain about it, complain about it and report posts.

This doesn't mean anything. No offense, but it really doesn't prove anything.

It proves that it's not people reading something into the scene. It proves that the creators themselves see the scene as risque.

Yes, because the scene is there and it can happen. It just isn't canon.

The scene is there and it DOES happen. Just as Shadow CAN live and CAN die but he DOES live.

It would help.

Why does it matter if it's in a love triangle or not?
You brought this up as a salient factor on why such silly standards are required I want to know why it matters.

It's a thought. You like to analyze things quite a bit, so I am too.

And the Nojima quote, which was relevant before, isn't anymore? Okay. I agree.

You've got to be quite a lot wittier to pull off that one, kiddo, but kudos on showing how you're willing to sacrifice context to score a cheap point. Now then, without trying to be clever, please, do answer how your speculation about Katou's authorship writing the scene or only part of the scene is at all relevant to the fact that it's identified as the risque scene. Katou wasn't brought up until after it was established that the scene was risque.

That part of the interview. And okay.

Yeah, I don't expect they thought people whould try and hem and haw and waffle endlessly about the things they rather clearly said.

I don't believe that translation. And it's ironic you'd ignore this quote, of all of them.

Like in my previous post, that you don't 'believe' that translation is a mark against you, not the accuracy of the translation. And we are not ignoring that quote. We're noting that A: Nomura's opinion can change, B: He's fed us lines of shit on other occasions, including bald faced lies, and C: The quote doesn't actually say what you keep insisting it does.

We talk badly about this entire thread to vent. Look at it. It's so biased. I know that you know this. We're getting laughed at, spat on, insulted, sworn at. Over what?

You are not being spat on. You are not being insulted- apart from Anastar being caught in double standards and lies, and yes, you're being sworn at. People swear, Virginia, and there's nothing in the rules against saying fuck in this thread or any others. But you know what? Even if we were doing all of the things you claim? You could try reporting it, or you could try bringing it up in this thread instead of acting the wilting flower here and then calling people bitches elsewhere.

You will find a way to call it lacking. You know this. Our arguments are never good enough, because you don't like them.

Have you ever considered the converse? Your arguments are not liked because they are simply bad arguments?

Mmkay.

You have. And continue to do so with your arguing against a translation meticulously backed by a dictionary using vague 'people I know' as a source.

I'm saying that Cloud cares for Tifa. That wasn't me paraphrasing anything.

Which does absolutely nothing to respond to or argue against the point that I was making was that sharing is used in an active sense, in a way synonymous with confirm, not in the passive sense of 'both having.'

Certain places don't mention a different version, yes. But in the "For the one I love" page, which this site has translated and put as a win for Cloud/Tifa, it also had information to go to another page, where it's specified there that there are two versions.

Yes. And that sidebar says that when certain conditions X are met, event Y happens. Do you know what we're told on the FTOIL page? The Cloud and Tifa share mutual feelings of romance underneath the highwind. It does not say in the high version. It does not say the low version. It simply says that is what occurs, with no mention of AV points or versions. That another page mentions that different versions exist does not matter because that being mentioned doesn't change that mutual confirmation of romantic feelings without words is stated to happen without respect to a version.
Now, the sidebar on p232 does say that if the AV is high, feelings will be shared earnestly, but unless this means that no feelings are shared in the low version, it has no effect on which version those feelings must be shared in.
What the FTOIL page tells us is a conclusion. You're trying to say that we can't be sure that the conclusion happened because another page makes mention of two outcomes for this scene.
But once again, this is completely analogous to Shadow's potential demise or his living and how he is officially revealed as alive by inclusion in a story summary. It's analogous to how Tidus can either be left a dream or made real again at the end of 10-2, and how one particular version of that is made official by a story summary. You are willing to follow this same logic to the conclusion in those cases, even though those cases are ALSO noted deviations.

I know that this has been said to you, and you'll call this irrelevant. But, you see, some of the people on here on your side are saying that we'll continue to see what we want to see and ignore "the obvious." But the obvious says that showing the versions were specified on that page says nothing about which is canon.

What the obvious says is that saying that a particular conclusion occurs makes the fact of variability leading to that conclusion or another one rather irrelevant.

Just because it wasn't stated in the description, like it was for the Cloud/Aerith date picture, means nothing. The option is plainly made. It doesn't have to continue to be plainly made every time it's mentioned.

And so too is the option plainly made for Shadow's life and death. And so also is the conclusion. With far less repitition and fanfare than the high Highwind scene.

I'm getting a point across. I said "I know that options we can make in video games can have canon outcomes." That, and Kotor, is me elaborating that I know full well.

It's also elaborating that your standards change when the subject isn't FF7.

It's supposed to be a sort of tie-in to the movies. It's supposed to give background to what's in the movies. That's what I meant, not that it's relevant to the films. Within the Old Republic stories, it's canon.[/quote]

But it's also irrelevant to what comes after them.

Bastila and Revan canonically "fall in love", which can only happen if Revan is male.

And your future relevance for the Exile being female? Because that's something that's simply been declared so and made official and has no future relevance to canon SW events.

I'm not denying the things you list are are canon, by the way, I'm also noting that these things were not declared canon BECAUSE they had to influence future events as you claim is required for the canonization of deviations. They were simply laid out, matter of fact, in story summaries, comic books, and the like. For example, the light side ending of KOTOR 2 is never officially declared canon, and in fact, Leland Chee, organizer of the Holocron, says they've avoided saying anything concrete about the ending, and indeed, that's the last official word on the subject. But like with the High Highwind scene, we don't need direct and blatant confirmation on the subject. We know from other sources that certain events actually happen. We know these events happen only in one ending, and thus we know that ending is official. This is the same way we can determine which one of the highwind scenes happened. We know the outcome. Not a future event affected by the scene, but something that happens in only one version of the deviation.

And it redirects, right above the picture, to a page where the two versions of the Highwind scene are explained. Only the HA version is on the FTOIL page.

No. Neither version is on the FTOIL page. The FTOIL page is itself version agnostic.

Like we've said, only the HA one is called romantic. Nothing about which one happened. Doesn't matter anyways. Nothing they talked about there started them in a relationship, so it can't be chalked up that this proves they become "involved" or will become "involved", or that they're, as a couple, canon.

What they talked about their was their mutual romantic feelings which the conveyed without words. This was their moment of confession and confirmation, as it was for Ingus and Sarah, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, Aldebert and Beartrix, and Tidus and Yuna, and it's the moment of confession for whomever goes on the date with Cloud, even though at that point he's officially oblivious. That you say 'nothing they talked about there started them in a relationship' is rather question begging in that context, given it's a mutual confession.

I knew you were going to do that!

It's not like it's hard to predict.

And I've covered your flat refusal to accept the word of a completely neutral dictionary regarding the meaning of the word tachiba and how that word being used means the sentence refers to roles and not personality traits here. You are still attempting to replace the very simple meaning of a word with another meaning entirely based on unspecified 'native Japanese speakers' you have not sourced in any way, and casually dismissing a completely objective source- a dictionary. And that's if you even READ the text of the picture provided.

(Just to have said it, I'll be absent for - well - eleven days or so. ...And, yes, I'll come back xD [I can already hear the "Ohnoes" ;P]
So, this will be my last post for roughly two weeks.)

Claim: The Low Scene was said to be apathetic.
In fact, the conversation is said to be apathetic - and, as said above, apathetic can also mean "no interest involved".

Yes. And this is rather nonsense, when you think of a 'disinterested conversation' as if the conversation itself was not paying attention. And even this slightly nonsensical reading still procludes the confirmation of feelings of any sort.

Claim: The High Affection Scene is canon because it was mentioned in some playthroughs/story books.
And almost every version had a mention that the scene can have a different version.

Tres covered this. Over half the mentions do not mention a different version. Those that do tend to mention the same events occuring as those that do not. If we have an equal number of statements that say "If X then Y" and "Y happened" and one that says "If W, then Z" we do not conclude that W is just as likely to have happened as X. Indeed, we conclude the opposite, that X did happen because Y DID happen.

Claim: Cloud and Tifa are confirmed to be in love because the love page lists them, and Cloud and Aerith aren't canon though the love page lists them.
Again.
Both scenes are said to be optional.

But the love page does not list them. It lists THE DATE. The text is concerned with THE DATE.
The love page, contrariwise, is concerned with the mutual confirmation of feelings between Cloud and Tifa. It's not the pictures, it's the words.
And no, both scenes are not said to be optional. All the dates are said to be up to Cloud's actions, but that confirmation of feelings IS NOT.

Claim: Aerith's death was portrayed above the High Affection Scene at the "Impressive Scenes" section.
Oh.
Well, then I was wrong, I'm sorry.
False information.

Where'd you get that it wasn't listed there from? Anyone can field this one, if they want.
Also, I'm hearing claims of a page like the important scenes page that has the date but not the highwind scene? Could someone please provide a citation, scan, or preferably both for this page?

Claim: Aerith's date isn't default/canon because it's said to be open to the player's choice and because Tifa's date was used in Cloud's profile.
First, it is at least said to be:
* the usual choice if the player plays the game "normally"
* default
And if you count Dismantled, then she even says that she remembers the date. And now please no saying "Dismantled is too old to be canon" because FFVII is even older. The only thing that would count is the mention of SE not saying anything about it later, but I don't think something becomes un-canon because it's never mentioned later.

The problem is, it's more complicated than that because SE doesn't seem to want to officiate any version. It's not because Dismantled is too old to be canon but because we have so many other sources saying materially different things, like Including Tifa's date in her profile and Clouds, and using her date as an example of Cloud being oblivious to both her and Aerith's feelings.

Claim: LL's own personal non-evidenced thoughts about the game do not fit into this topic.
Hell.
I was asked to do this, and I first refused.
When I was asked again and again, then I provided an answer with an extra warning that said that this is my own view of things.
Of course it has nothing to do with a debate that involves only facts and no other matters, but I was asked to do this and I wanted to provide that in hope that one will never ask me again.

We don't mind your opinion being shared. We don't mind your speculation being shared either. We just want emperical validation for the narrative. We're here to determine an official outcome as best we can, and personal viewpoints have a place in that, they just have to fit in with the synthesis of facts as best as possible.

Claim: Sharing of romantic feelings happened for sure and the Love-Page doesn't say anything against it.
Again.
There is a link to a side that says that you can get both versions and that no one is preferred/canon/default/the one that will always happen in the game's canonity.

And, as mentioned, neither that page nor the FTOIL page mentions anything about romance happening only in one version. It simply states that it happens. If you wish to bring in future evidence for this claim, a case precluding one version becomes apparent.

Claim: Cloud still holds romantic feelings for Tifa since their childhood and that was said to be true in the lifestream.
Is it the same in the original quote?

It's actually even more certain in the original quote, as Tres covered. Specifically, I think it means 'definitely, or with almost 100% certainty'

Claim: SE didn't say that mutual feelings of romance were shared in the High Version.
They say that if Tifa's affection is high, then they will convey feelings of desire for each other.

Assuming this is in response to me, you are correct, but the FTOIL page DOES NOT specify any version. This is a point I wish to hammer home because it's important for understanding that having a conclusion lets us validate and invalidate mutually contradictory divergances.

Claim: LL misquotes several quotes; therefore, they are equivocal.
While it's true that I am too lazy to research the exact version of the Highwind quotes, they still remain to be equivocal.

Like Tres said, show this. Do more than say it is so.

Claim: Nomura only said that players can speculate about the stuff they did not already cover.
Okay, then - did he already state CloTi?
In your opinion, yes, because you say that he did already prove that with the Highwind quotes.
Okay, then why does he say he hasn't got any clue if Cloud and Tifa were together in a romantic relationship after FFVII? SE did already make it canon, right? And it's blatantly obvious to most of the players? So why hasn't he got any clue?

For the same reason he wass absolutely certain Kairi and Namine have nothing in common. Nomura can and will play things close to the chest at times, and then clarify them later, as with KH2.
And even if he didn't know THEN about their relationship, this predates most all the quotes on the subject. Including the later koibito quote. His earlier statements are superceded by the preponderance of more recent information where he has- granting arguendo that he actually didn't know- changed his mind.
Nojima's been rather consistent about it, though. To him, the first thing cemented about AC was that Cloud and Tifa were together and this stayed true even after the film was changed from a woman (Tifa) using some children to deliver a message to a man (Cloud) and to what we know today.

Claim: Tifa is said to be someones beloved.
Wasn't there a discussion about using official translated quotes or not? In fact, this was translated as 'sweetheart'. No big difference, but still.

In this case, we are using the prime source to better understand the translation. The prime source uses koibito, which has only two definitions in common with the english word sweetheart- someone's sweetheart, and 'sweethearts' AKA, beloved and lover.
The prime source uses tachiba, which means roles in the world. The english uses character, which has one definition in line with tachiba- someone's role 'In his character as a Judge, not his character as a father.' It does not refer to personality traits, but roles fulfilled, this is how she has multiple dimensions of character. To some she is like a mom, to others she is like an ally, and to someone, she's like a lover or beloved. None of these are specified, but we can rationally deduce which people would view Tifa in such a light in relation to Advent Children.

Claim: It was said that Tifa belongs to Cloud.
No. It was said it was sure they would be together at the same place.

No, it was said they would be together, and that everyone would be home where they belonged. It's also said that at the end of AC/C, Cloud realizes where he is meant to live, after which he resumes living with Tifa. Add that to the future together and bob's your uncle.

Claim: It was said that Cloud and Tifa have a future together.
And I guess this necessarily indicates romance? I thought there should be only quotes used that indicate romance going on between them for sure.

On it's own, it merely indicates a shared future. But I'm not trying to convince you with a silver bullet quote. I'm crafting a strong brick wall synthesis of evidence. Their future elucidates and informs on other quotes. Like Tifa being left by a man does, like her wearing the pants does, etc. etc. etc.

Claim: If LL just prefers C/A without any evidence, it doesn't make sense that she tries to deny C/T.
I want to make sure that the canon couple is up to the player's choice, not anything else.
If you can tell me that Cloud loves Tifa to the present time for sure, then I will agree that this love is canon.
However, I haven't seen anything stating that for sure, so unless you got something more, the choice will be up to the player, meaning there is no canon couple to be decided.

The Lifestream sequence is is when Tifa realized the feelings Cloud had been holding from childhood. So, yes, they continue to the present time.
And even without this, there's still no choice the player CAN make to select Aerith. At most you can choose to not do much of anything with Tifa, but this is far from the same as choosing Aerith. We're dealing with a Four state system, not a two state.

Claim: LL said that the Love page doesn't count for the HA scene.
No, LL has said that both - the Aerith date and the High Affection Scene - are romantic.

And the Tifa date and the Yuffie date. And the barret 'date' is about romance too, though not in a positive sense.

While both scenes are up to the players choice at the love page, the date was at least said to be default and the usual choice.
The High Affection Scene wasn't said to be default/canon/the usual choice.

But they aren't up to the player's choice at the love page.
Also, default and canon are not the same thing.
And the High Highwind scene has been included in story summaries AND as one of the four most important scenes in the game. As far as the creators concerned, the High Highwind is the narrative where any or all of the four dates can happen.

Claim: LL contradicted herself in saying that C/A actions could have revealed romance without words and then saying that, if nothing is stated, it didn't happen.
Nono, this was no contradiction.
The claim was that Cloud and Aerith didn't say anything about romance towards each other.
My claim is that they could have done this through actions maybe.
However, there is no quote and no game line stating such, so if there is nothing stated, it didn't happen.
This is no contradiction, this is just a possibility with no evidence that likely didn't happen.

Claims require evidence sufficient to establish their propositions. Anything COULD be. Showing that COULD is actually IS requires evidence. Without evidence, COULD is actually more like 'unlikely.'


One thing that needs to be empahsized is that time and time again, Cloud and Tifa are linked in character commentary, creator commentary, ultimania quotes, and even in the Crisis Core Keyword collection. Literally, 'Cloud and Tifa' is a keyword. Zack and Aerith don't even get that.
Cloud and Tifa realize feelings, confirm feelings, live together, form a family together, raise kids together, reach a commune together have a future together and belong together. We are hammered time and again with them being linked.

Regardless of anything else, they are and will be TOGETHER. Aerith, by contrast, is mentioned as leaving together with Zack for a place where she and he both Belong. The evidence for C/A needs to get over both the hurdle of Cloud and Tifa being inexorably linked, and Aerith being in the lifestream where she belongs, leaving for this place after Cloud realizes where he does.

I mean, we have a quote that says the first Time cloud opened his heart to someone was with Tifa and that the situation in AC/C is so dire he's closed it 'even to her.' so she's both the first person he opens it up to and the last person he closes it off to.
Where's the equivalent evidence for C/A and C/A alone? The consciousness quote can't be a literal one and Clerith lives on in all her friends according to her own profile.
If you want to CLAIM equivalency in the likelihood of both pairings, please, SHOW the equivalency. Don't merely assert it.

I'll address just this:


LOL, calm down, CR. It isn't. MB used the most infamous line from (even more infamous) The Legend of Zelda cartoon. It's humorous. XD

And for the record, it's not an insult in the show either, but an expression of indignation by the main character when he feels slighted. I'm pretty sure MB meant it in jest.
Regardless, CR, report it.
I'll get the U10 page out shortly. Did not get around to uploading it last weekend.

 

[Dashell]

Hey Ryu, I know what impressive scenes they're talking about. The Historical Compendium for FFVII has "impressive scenes" and it has both Aerith and Tifa's date, but no Highwind scene. THIS is also the one lacking Aerith's death.

http://www.square-enix.co.jp/dissidia_012/ffhc/

EDIT
Oh, never mind, I guess this was in reference to a page in the 10th AU that shows some sense from the game that doesn't even say they're impressive or important but for some reason it's totally assumed that these are the most important scenes. But since Square needs to spoon feed us, I'm going to say, "How do we know these scenes are important? How do we know Square didn't just pick them at random?"


oh well, way to shoot myself in the foot

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hey Ryu, I know what impressive scenes they're talking about. The Historical Compendium for FFVII has "impressive scenes" and it has both Aerith and Tifa's date, but no Highwind scene. THIS is also the one lacking Aerith's death.

http://www.square-enix.co.jp/dissidia_012/ffhc/

EDIT
Oh, never mind, I guess this was in reference to a page in the 10th AU that shows some sense from the game that doesn't even say they're impressive or important but for some reason it's totally assumed that these are the most important scenes. But since Square needs to spoon feed us, I'm going to say, "How do we know these scenes are important? How do we know Square didn't just pick them at random?"

You mean the page with the pictures that skips disc 2 in its entirety?
The page that says nothing about the images at all?


Also, so, picture from the U10 uploaded. Apologies for low picture quality.

Spoiler: clickyclick

If someone with a working scanner wants to get a higher resolution shot of the relevant 'compilation check' sectionfeel free. I do not have access to the DoC book off hand. If you could provide the page, it would be appreciated.

In any case, links to what you need to keep in mind.
胸 に きざまれて

 

[Kefka]

Now then, without trying to be clever, please, do answer how your speculation about Katou's authorship writing the scene or only part of the scene is at all relevant to the fact that it's identified as the risque scene.

I thought that the obly thing described as risque was Tifa's line. I honestly don't see how it could be taken that anything sexual happened that night. If Square wanted us to believe that they had relations, they are very capable of doing so. They've done it before.
Don Corneo's mansion, for example, and the Honeybee Inn, are both clearly sexual in nature. In fact, in other Square games, e.g. Xenogears, sexual relations have been clearly implied.
So I don't see at all how this scene could be considered risque. The only thing suggestive would be Tifa's line...

(I'm sorry if I misunderstood this statement, this is my first time debating.)

 

[Celes Chere]

Tifa's line is pretty suggestive, but so is them spending the whole night together, the screen fading to black, and the fact that they change the original script which was Cloud and Tifa coming out of the chocobo stables all flustered. For me, I'm on the fence about whether or not they have had sex. I think it certainly is heavily implied but 100%? Not so sure. I at least think that something intimate happened, otherwise Tifa wouldn't have been so embarrassed the next morning.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I thought that the obly thing described as risque was Tifa's line. I honestly don't see how it could be taken that anything sexual happened that night. If Square wanted us to believe that they had relations, they are very capable of doing so. They've done it before.
Don Corneo's mansion, for example, and the Honeybee Inn, are both clearly sexual in nature. In fact, in other Square games, e.g. Xenogears, sexual relations have been clearly implied.
So I don't see at all how this scene could be considered risque. The only thing suggestive would be Tifa's line...

(I'm sorry if I misunderstood this statement, this is my first time debating.)

As a mom, I have to look at your age and simply say: "I am not having this discussion with you." Sorry. I'll gladly discuss most everything else with you though. ^^

 

[Ryushikaze]

I thought that the obly thing described as risque was Tifa's line. I honestly don't see how it could be taken that anything sexual happened that night. If Square wanted us to believe that they had relations, they are very capable of doing so. They've done it before.
Don Corneo's mansion, for example, and the Honeybee Inn, are both clearly sexual in nature. In fact, in other Square games, e.g. Xenogears, sexual relations have been clearly implied.
So I don't see at all how this scene could be considered risque. The only thing suggestive would be Tifa's line...

(I'm sorry if I misunderstood this statement, this is my first time debating.)

The line 'Words aren't the only way to show how you feel' is in its own a very innocent line. But it's not simply on its own, nor is it an innocent line.
Since the line itself contains no inherent naughtiness, it must be insinuating naughtiness.
Add into this the pan and fade upwards almost immediately afterwards, followed by the pan and fade, and the fact that it's 'without words' and you have a recipe for heavy petting at the absolute least. Plus, as mentioned, the scene is a less explicit version of a roll in the hay in a literal haypile.
But like with FHS that is the most I will say on the subject, given your age.
I will however say good show on catching my slipup, but it being the 'risque dialogue scene' as opposed to the 'risque scene' doesn't change all that much in the long run.

Tifa's line is pretty suggestive, but so is them spending the whole night together, the screen fading to black, and the fact that they change the original script which was Cloud and Tifa coming out of the chocobo stables all flustered. For me, I'm on the fence about whether or not they have had sex. I think it certainly is heavily implied but 100%? Not so sure. I at least think that something intimate happened, otherwise Tifa wouldn't have been so embarrassed the next morning.

Regardless, some action occured, and it was without words, and it confirmed feelings of romance. That's a suggestive scenario.

 

[Kefka]

As a mom, I have to look at your age and simply say: "I am not having this discussion with you." Sorry. I'll gladly discuss most everything else with you though. ^^

It's fine. I only really brought it up because it seemed relevant. I understand your reasoning.

 

[Vendel]

Tifa's line is pretty suggestive, but so is them spending the whole night together, the screen fading to black,

Ah yes the suggestive fade to black. Or as Tv Tropes would put it, a SexyDiscretionShot.

 

[Master Bates]

You (general) started with it, so I used Simba and Mufasa's case to show that living on in one's consciousness necessitates a deep love for said person. But, you focused on them being father and son rather than why I stated it.

And as I have said, you saw it that way, fine by me.

It was used as a comparison. Either the quote was filial or it was romantic. That's how comparisons work.

I asked a question and you replied with another question.
You could've answered me then asked me.
That's all I'm saying.

I did reply with a "how" but you did not give me any substantial answer. You first made the claim, you substantiate it.

And how, pray tell, did I misinterpret those?

Like Aerith renting a space within Cloud's anatomy?

Good. Because I do not need multiple posts saying the same thing.
It just adds to what I have to read and reply too, which is time-consuming.

But it would be good if they were properly addressed.

Ah. Yes. Of course.

I think I asked Ryu for said phrase, and I can't check into it now. I haven't read the rest of the posts. I will when I get home back in the province.

Sure.

Oh great. This is not an insult?

Legend of Zelda reference.

Your question was rude in itself.
And what did I say that makes YOU feel lost about it?
Did I ever say anything that makes YOU think I was talking about said quote literally?

Actually, it wasn't rude and because your initial point is pseudo-literal then you suddenly pull a 180 degree, I just don't understand anymore.

Ever heard of three strikes?

Batter out?

I appreciate you liking me despite you questioning my points and tactics.

But of course.

Seriously. I just present my points.

We all do.

I don't have tactics.

I think not having one is.

I don't have standards.

Arbitrary.

I just speak out for what I support. It's as simple as that.
Ah. Context again.

Context without standards?

And here I thought if I was polite, people would do the same.
Silly me.

Can't I say the word "fuck" anymore? Besides, it's not like the word "fuck" was directed at you.

<-------- I'm addicted to this thing here.

Re: Tifa's line in the HA HW scene.

I first played the game when I was still 11 years old and I seriously thought they knocked each other's boots then. My mind must have been already tainted by that time. I mean, just how do you show someone how you feel without words?

 

[Anastar]

Vendel

Chantara wrote: Maybe the fact that Cloud can still see, talk, and touch Aerith has something to do with it,

None of which happens in the OG or in the two years in between that and AC. Nor do we have any evidence it happens after ACC where we are shown and told she goes back to the LS (with that pesky Zack).

So again how is that "leaving it up to the players"? Nothing you or I have described is under player control.

Oh, you mean you want confirmation that Cloud can still see and communicate with Aerith before you believe it? Funny - I'm wanting confirmation that Cloud loves Tifa before I believe it.

It is only theoretically possible that Cloud loves Tifa because we know it's possible to get the HA version, even though it's optional. We also know that it's theoretically possible for Cloud to still be able to see and communicate with Aerith after AC for several reasons:

1) Since Sephiroth exists, Aerith must exist. There was no doubt about that one. ~Nojima, pg. 9, Reunion Files

Are you saying that Sephiroth can no longer exist? A dead man who's been resurrected at least three times to fight battles with Cloud? A dead man who said in CoL: Black that he will always exist in Cloud's consciousness?

The man knew that if one could hold onto some core of their spirit, then one could remain a separate entity, independent from the planet's system. Cloud. The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. I'm still thinking of you. And I'll show you the proof of that as well. ~Case of Lifestream: Black 1; by Nojima

2) Sephiroth made Cloud a core of his spirit so that he could continue to exist. So did Aerith. That was told to us by Nomura in Distance:

The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview

So Sephiroth continues to exist because he lives on in Cloud. If Sephiroth exists, Aerith exists. Aerith lives on in Cloud, too.

3) We saw Aerith in Calling after she and Zack went back to the Lifestream, so we know Aerith's not limited to the Lifestream.

4) The presence of Aerith was suggested in Reminiscence during Cloud's phone call with Tifa. That was the only phone call where you could hear Cloud's voice only, which suggests that someone was listening in to his phone call. The most likely person to be listening in is Aerith.

Therefore, Cloud is able to continue seeing and communicating with Aerith. That is just as theoretically possible as it is for Cloud to love Tifa. It was not shown that Cloud loves Tifa in any non-optional scene in FFVII after the HW scene, during the novella's, during AC/ACC, or during DoC. Therefore, the idea that Cloud loves Tifa is merely your interpretation of the story.

It is my interpretation that Cloud can still see Aerith because she lives on inside of him.

Looks like we're on equal footing.

Chantara wrote: Feelings can change in two years. I can't see how Tifa asking if Cloud loves her is proof that Cloud loves her. If anything, it's proof that she doesn't know whether Cloud loves her - in which case, the HA version didn't happen and the LA version did.

Except again I feel the need to point out it has been put out there that if the feelings are mutual (as they have been stated to be) then you said the LA means they confirm mutual romantic disinterest.

So no matter what scene happened according to you Tifa and Cloud would know each others feelings. So why the sudden shift when I point out that Tifa is worried if Cloud loves her?

Shouldn't she know he doesn't if the LA happened? So why worry about it? Unless the HA one happened then she would have reason to worry about Cloud becoming distant.

In the first place, it's never said that Tifa is worried about whether Cloud loves her. That's merely your assumption. Maybe she's just curious.

In the second place, your objection is negated by what you said here: "Shouldn't she know he doesn't if the LA happened?" Yes, but she should also know that he does if the HA happened.

She should know his feelings regardless of which version happened, and therefore should have no reason to ask regardless of which version happened. The contradiction is as strong for your version as for my version.

Chantara wrote: Actually, it is dripping with ambiguity

No, it isn't. You swap the names with any generic male and female ones (or just show this to someone who doesn't know who these characters are) then this statement would suddenly become very clear now wouldn't it?

I imagine if it said something similar about C/A you wouldn't find it ambiguous at all. Sadly for them nothing like that exist. Whereas C/T have like a bakers dozen.

It'd be helpful to know which quote you're talking about before I answer.

Chantara wrote: No, what you're suggesting is that I interpret it your way on the second play through.

No what I am suggesting is that instead of falling in love with Aerith and creating your own story around her. You should have paid more attention to the actual game the second time around.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

Thing is, there is no one way to interpret the Love Triangle in the game. It's your opinion that there's only one way to interpret it, but that doesn't make it fact. For all you know, the way I interpret the Love Triangle is the correct way to interpret it, and you're the one inventing stories about Tifa.

Chantara wrote: That's one big difference between us. I say there's more than one way to interpret the game, and you insist there's only one possible way to interpret it.

Except we are not talking about "the game". We are talking about one aspect of it. Or to be more precise, just one aspect of that aspect. Who Cloud loves in the end. And there is only one "interpretation" for that.

We disagree.

And for the record the Ultimanis pretty much wring out any room for interpretation for the vast majority of the game. I just choose to interpret them as knowing what they are talking about.

Oh - is that why Nomura said after the release of AC that he has no idea whether Cloud and Tifa were involved in a romantic relationship in the two years after FFVII? Is that why Nojima wrote in CoL:White that Cloud is Aerith's lover/sweetheart? Is that why the DoC Game Manual says that Aerith will be engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life? Is that why Tifa's profile in the 10th AU calls Aerith a "love rival" of Tifa's? Is that why Cloud thinks of Aerith first and second after Sephiroth asks him what he cherishes most? Is that why the Reunion Files says that Cloud is no longer alone at the end of AC after finding Aerith again?

Chantara wrote: -It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital.

And what point are you making with this exactly? That Cloud doesn't think about his family? Or that he only thinks about them as an afterthought to Aerith? Because I hope that isn't what you are trying to say.

Neither one. I'm giving reasons why I think Cloud still loves Aerith instead of Tifa. There's even more reasons in my last answer.

Chantara wrote: -Nomura: I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day.

Look I managed to connect the dots. Cloud's feelings are comparable to the other game characters and the viewers.

No, you conveniently made it say what you wanted it to say. What it really says is that Cloud carries his own undying feelings for Aerith even today - and the phraseology suggests that part of Cloud's feeling might be love, since other characters feel love for Aerith.

Chantara wrote: Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world... The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

-Then Nomura further says he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC.

Doesn't look so clear to me.

So I guess you were trying to say Cloud doesn't worry about his family? Sorry Marlene and Denzel. Only Aerith matters. You just have the tough luck of being saddled with Tifa. That woman who although he will be with her for the rest of his life like a partner and he will raise you like a father is neither of those things nor wants to be. Only flowers are on his mind.

Are you trying to avoid replying to what I said, or are you trying to put words in my mouth so that nobody will notice that you're not replying to what I said?

What I gave you were two (MORE) examples of things said by SE which say that 1) Tifa is aware that Cloud still loves Aerith, and 2) Cloud may not be romantically interested in Tifa.

Chantara wrote: At any rate, I was talking about why Tifa's worried about a "real" family, when no one else is. Your answer was in general about "family", not "real family" - which seems to be what Tifa's worried about.

So when Cloud says in the movie he doesn't think he is fit to save his family he needed to add in "real" so we know who he is talking about?

"I don’t think I’m fit to save anyone. Not my real family, who are you Denzel and Marlene not my family of friends who is the rest of Avalanche that is not you Marlene or Denzel. . . no one."

Not the point. The point is that the only person we hear talking about and worrying about a "real family" is Tifa.

Chantara wrote: Do I have to bow and scrape before you, too? Sorry, but I will be saying it again - especially since I didn't meet all of my family members until I was about 10.

Bow and scrape? No, but you could at least be consistent. You can't claim they are not family to go against this Denzel point. Then claim they are to refute a different point. It's horribly dishonest.

Where did I say they were not family? I said that just because Denzel didn't know they were family doesn't mean they're not family.

Chantara wrote: Actually, he is. Barret's the one who came up with the idea of "family":

He probably told them to adopt Denzel also right? Or was he the one that needed to do it since he is supposed to be the father of the 7th heaven family?

I never said that. I said that Barret's the one who came up with the idea of "family". (And he was, according to the translation I have.) However, I don't see how your translation changes my point.

Barret lifted his artificial right arm up that had a machine gun attached to it. He kept walking without looking back. It was the back of a figure who had no other way to live than to fight. I wonder just what kind of life he will find. I prayed that he would be able to stay far away from war. Not just take. I prayed he would be able to prove that he could give, too.

“I’ll be a nice child of this family!” Marlene said.
Hearing those words, Cloud and Tifa looked at each other. A child of this family?
“I’ll take care of Cloud and Tifa!”
Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky.
“Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”

Even if it's Marlene saying it, why would she call herself part of a family that Barret didn't belong to? Marlene and Barret have been family for years - I doubt that she would suddenly just leave him out of it.

Then Barret says, "Unite the family's strength and keep at it." Would he tell Marlene to unite the family strength if he wasn't part of that family? If Barret says "family" and he includes Marlene in that family, then he's obviously part of that family, too.

Chantara wrote: Make sure you be a nice child of this family!

And where did you get this translation? Because Barret doesn't say that. Not in the one we have on this site nor the one Q posted.

Actually, the translation I have is the first translation of the revised CoT that appeared on TLS, which was done by Danna.

Chantara wrote: It seems very unlikely to me that Barret would tell Marlene to be a nice child "of this family"

It is unlikely because he didn't say it.

See my response above which answers your question.

Chantara wrote: And you think that matters to Marlene? Denzel talked about his own sins in his own story - he felt guilty for letting that lady die whom he was living with at the time Meteor fell.

I am just curious as to how Marlene fits into this "family only made up of friends" as you claim Tifa said it was. Does it not apply to her? Or does it just apply to Cloud?

Tifa does say it's a family of friends. However, that's Tifa thinking the family is made up of friends, not Marlene.

Do you mean how does Tifa see Marlene fitting into the family of friends? I think it's obvious that she would see Marlene as Barret's daughter. Since Barret's her friend and part of the family, his daughter should be part of the family, too.

Chantara wrote: And why is Tifa the only one worried about a "real" family? You gave me a bunch of quotes where Cloud is talking about the family, but Tifa's the only one worrying about a "real" family.

You're right Cloud must not care.

"I guess that only works on 'real' families"

*Cloud nods in agreement*

"You're right Tifa, you three friends I was living with are not my top priority."

I'll respond when you find a real quote from the story to support what you're saying.

Chantara wrote: Sounds to me like she calls them a family of friends:

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family.

Funny how the entire thing is talking about past events. It's almost like it's playing out exactly like I said.

Then what friends do you think she's talking about?

Chantara wrote: It isn't until later that she starts talking about a "real" family.

Later as in "every mention of family after this paragraph".[/QUOTE]And every time she says it, she's wondering IF they've become a real family. In fact, the first time Tifa wonders that is after Cloud brings Denzel home.

Chantara wrote: With no clarification as to what their relationship is at the time, so it could just as easily be as friends as it could be as lovers.

Un, no. Not "just as easily".

Yes, just as easily.

Chantara wrote: There's nothing in the story to make it definite what their relationship with one another is.

You seem to be living in "possible" and not "probable" or "likely" land. Don't you find that exhausting?

You should know, since you're living there, too.

I mean realizing feelings, living together and raising children is so easy to understand and requires pretty much zero explanation. Whereas "friends" requires vast amounts.

No, it doesn't. Especially when Cloud calls Tifa his "nakama" in Dissidia 012. Which, by the way, means "FRIEND as close as family".

Chantara wrote: Barret's the first to suggest it, then Tifa calls it a family of friends, then Marlene invites Cloud into the family - yet you think it's Cloud's family?

Let's see. Doesn't matter, you're wrong, doesn't matter and yes.

Then I repeat: Barret's the first to suggest it (actually Marlene, but same difference), then Tifa calls it a family of friends, then Marlene invites Cloud into the family. That clearly means it's not Cloud's idea.

Chantara wrote: I'm talking about how it started because it wasn't Cloud's idea. He didn't "decide to make a family with Tifa". He was invited to be part of it.

No, Cloud decided to be with Tifa first. The family was a package deal. And they both accepted it and even added to it later.

I suggest you re-read CoT, since that's not how it happens at all.

Chantara wrote: And isn't that the room that Tifa means when she tells Cloud to go "drink in your room"? Sounds like my mother telling me to "go to your room" when I was a kid - so it must be his bedroom, too.

When my wife tells me to go drink in my room she means the garage. So it must be his office.[/QUOTE]

Chantara wrote: Pure assumption. If there's a bed there, that's probably where he sleeps.

My brother slept in the living room while work was done on his place. Was that his bedroom?[/QUOTE]If there's a bed in "Cloud's room", then it's most likely his bedroom. We never see a room that's called "Cloud and Tifa's room". When Rude and Reno bring Cloud and Tifa back to the Seventh Heaven, they take them to Denzel and Marlene's room. Why not take them to their bedroom? Probably because they don't have one.

Chantara wrote: That's why there's a quote of Nomura saying it along with a source for it.

Well I hope it's something you haven't shown me yet. Because nothing you have posted says that.[/QUOTE]Sesc posted it here a week ago: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7360&page=61

Sesc found the source for the quote and it comes from here: http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

The interview took place in November, 2005, so it was after Advent Children's release date is September, 2005.

Specifically, Nomura says that he has no idea whether Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC.

Chantara wrote: For all we know, Tifa walked into Cloud's bedroom while he was asleep before asking him that,

Yes Tifa walks into his room to ask him a question she should already know the answer to and then stands there while he goes back to sleep. Great character portrayal there SE. You turned Tifa into Edward.

What makes you think Tifa wants an answer?

Chantara wrote: It says nothing about Cloud and Tifa sleeping in the same bed.

Because it shouldn't have to.

"Cloud who is sleeping right next to me, do you love me"

It does have to if it wants us to know that they're sleeping with one another. So far, the only bed we've seen is the bed in Cloud's room and the beds in Denzel and Marlene's room. If you think Cloud and Tifa are sleeping with one another, then your imagination's overactive since there's absolutely nothing to suggest it.