I didn't reply with one post because it will only confuse me. And it prevents those to whom I'm replying to to mix up my argument with one to that of the other.
But, oh well. Might as well do it. :p
Multiquoting is kinda standard. I, for one, tend to reply to several people at once. Our system preserves the information on who is quoted and the post quoted.
First off, we were pertaining to CoT, I believe. And yes, he could have told her that or that 'he needed to find forgiveness'. Tifa is left guessing what Cloud wants to do, a little info might have helped her calm her senses.
Again, you're using pertaining incorrectly. People don't actively pertain to things. It's not an action they perform. It's more a state they exist in. The material strength of a sword pertains to its durability, but one does not 'pertain' to said material strength when determining the durability. One refers.
Tifa's line shows that she knows how Aerith's death, and probably Zack's as well, is affecting Cloud. So yes, it shows that she has a clue to what Cloud was thinking about. But she didn't know what Cloud exactly wanted from Aerith-her forgiveness.
I don't really know what you were pertaining to when you said that Cloud found Tifa lying next to his blanket. Where was that? AC/ACC? Didn't Cloud find Tifa in Aerith's flowerbed?
I think MA meant what Tifa found next to his blanket, but the flowerbed's close enough.
It was my opinion of his line at the end of AC/ACC, which happens after CoT. His line saying, "I know... I'm not alone... Not anymore."
This somehow implies that he has felt alone before or in the events of AC/ACC.
He has. Because he was making himself BE alone. Not that he wanted to be, but he felt he must be. This is a man who loved his family, who was happy with them, and that fact was tearing him up inside.
Ryu, I'm not replying to you regarding your reply to what I posted for Feferi, please understand. I believe Feferi would be able to defend his/her argument well. You may both have different replies to what I have said, and it would be very annoying if I had to repeat myself to two people. Thank you. Btw, sorry for the mix-up with the script and the 10th Ani Ulti.
Just so long as you do respond to her points, since I don't think my points were significantly different from hers. I still plan on adding my own salient points to your responses to other people and other people to you. The more brains connecting and offering ideas the better.
Which means? I'm not really familiar with those terms. Anyway, I tried submitting two replies I think to the same post, the other being marked as Spam I guess.
It means the system is stupid sometimes. We deal with it.
I wasn't using it for argument and I didn't plan on doing so. As I've said in my very first comment on your article, I was merely asking for info.
Then consider that it is argumentatively pointless part of the information provided.
Okay then. What a weird dating mechanism for Yuffie.
It's a dating mini game. As a rule, they are full of wierd, arbitrary, and often downright stupid mechanisms and other elements. See also- the Galge genre as a whole.
On second thought, don't.
Oh ok. I thought Cloud said that he heard Tifa calling him back in from the Lifestream? He nods afterwards, his hand to his face. Why the need to nod if you know the person you're talking to isn't facing you and you're not even looking?
Same reason you nod on the phone? People do it sometimes. And yes, Cloud does confirm he heard Tifa calling him. His wording "Yeah, I heard it too." implicitly confirms he was actually calling Tifa.
I forgot what we were talking about here. Wasn't it the ellipses?
Well, with this, I get it and I agree already.
No, not the ellipses specifically, though it does pertain to them, specifically your question of why he paused. I suggested it was because once again, he could find no words, as he spoke of earlier about having so many things he wanted to tell Tifa, just like when they were kids, but still not having the words to tell her.
I thought that the page number (232) on the photo lead to this:
"Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania"
Oh well.
No. I think that has been cited incorrectly. Where did you get that particlar citation from?
It might be a genuine citation from the UO, but the U20 story page is a transcription of the High Highwind and called one of the four notable scenes of the game.
Others are the opening mission, Pres ShinRa's death, and Aerith's death.
EDIT:
Doesn't Cloud's lines as he held Aerith's lifeless body count as something romantic? He acted all dramatic and stuff while Sephiroth was standing there behind him when the man could've killed him.
No. They show he was greatly affected by the murder, but so was everyone else. Moreover, add anyone else in there, even Zack, even Yuffie, the lines 'read' the same. You'd need prior evidence to show this as romantic. Heck, look at Aria's death in FF3 (Oh yeah, spoilers for the 1st third of a game you might never play with a character who's in the party about 30 minutes) and Onion Knight/ Luneth's reaction to that.
Which affected Tifa in a way that she felt insecure or unsure of what Cloud wanted?
Again, I'm not saying what he did was the best idea. Just that he did it with good intentions.
Like I said, wasn't it important for him to at least inform Tifa, his love interest? It could have helped her understand Cloud better.
Not even Tifa understands his mindset, and she's supposed to be his love interest, so I see why we're having a hard time understanding him.
She's still the person who understands him best and all to well. Remember, he's "closed his heart off" even to her here. This is some serious lockdown Cloud's going on. Especially since it was for her he opened it up in the first place.
I think Nojima himself stated that CoT was written on the premise that won't go well with Cloud and Tifa. Given that, I find it confusing how he could be happy with the children and Tifa, whom he has a strained relationship with, and feel alone.
He stated that them having problems was part of the premise, yes. He also stated that them working through them was also part of it, and joked about not trying to shove his views on love and marriage into the work, before laughing to indicate he thought he failed.
You are viewing the strained relationship as the predicate here, and though it's the premise, that's a backwards view. It's because he is happy with them that he feels guilty over his past failures- he doesn't deserve this happiness. It is because Cloud feels guilty and undeserving that he becomes withdrawn, trying to solve his problems without burdening his family- why impose on those you don't deserve?- but this causes them to be anxious, worried, and yes, sometimes irritated with him. This causes the relationships to be 'troubled.' If Cloud didn't have Geostigma- the main game changer, he might have worked through these issues on his own, and never had to leave.
Cloud's relationship with Tifa becomes strained because of his withdrawl due to his guilt over his growing happiness. It is not that he is happy their despite their strained relationship, but their relationship becomes strained despite and indirectly because of that happiness.
And before the events of AC/ACC, Cloud wasn't aware of Aerith and Zack's presence. So at the end, when he realized that both Aerith and Zack are with him too, he also realized that they are always with him even in spirit. It doesn't mean that only his live friends could help, right?
But the both of them are leaving. They are asking if he will be alright as they walk away. They are asking because they can't always be there to help. They have taught him he is not alone, he hasn't been alone, but like Yoda and Obi-Wan only better looking, they can't actually be with him.
Also, technically, the phrase 'in spirit' in the context of support means when you actually cannot be with or aid someone at all but still would support them. Not that they can help him as ghosts.
In any case, 'You'll be okay' when leaving- especially when dead people leave into undefined glowing whiteness- does not translate narratively into 'we'll always be with you.' In fact, it's quite the opposite. It's a finality, indicating a permanent or nearly so seperation.
If we look at it that way, it would have been better for SE to state that the city of Edge was his promised Land, or that 7th Heaven was, since those were the where Cloud and his friends seem to gather together. We can't really say when he realized or made the Church his promised land. It was stated that the place he woke up was where his Promised Land was.
Actually, we can say when. The promised land is defined as a place where you find your happiness- this is in its most basic form without extra mumbo jumbo- for Cloud, the church is this when he wakes up. Why? We are told it is because he sees his friends and his family- he sees them as he wakes up, finally free of the guiltwolf that's been following him all movie. That is why it is his promised land. It was not his promised land earlier because he could not be happy without burden before.
Well, when we look at it this way, it makes sense.
Funny how Cloud landed in the Church after the explosion, and Aerith made the calls to lead those afflicted with Geostigma there. Makes it seem that she planned where Cloud would land on.
Just saying. :p
It's unlikely he actually landed there- for one, we didn't see him flying out of the blast at the end of his fight with Beta and Gamma, and for two I'm pretty sure he was facing the direction of the church when he got sploded, and so would have flown in the opposite direction. More likely is the gang finding his body, trying to treat him, and then getting a ring about the healing water in the church from Aerith's undead robo-calls.
Oooh. That one.
Well, seeing as how Sephiroth waited for Cloud to make him do it, and later on, killed Aerith in front of Cloud, taking in consideration Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death with Sephy watching it, wouldn't it seem that Sephiroth knew how much it would pain Cloud?
No. Or rather, he did it not because killing Aerith specifically would pain Cloud, but because having Cloud eliminate his biggest threat and one of Cloud's friends beside would show Cloud how powerless he is, that he was just a puppet, that THAT would pain Cloud, and set him up perfectly to be torn down. And even then, he didn't consider doing this act until Aerith made herself notable as a threat to his plans. That's why Henova stepped in to finish the job when control failed. It was all about the murder. Fucking with Cloud was priority 2 at that moment. Then when he thought he was good to go, Priority 1 again.
Well, SE sure does make it hard for people to make a concrete image of 7th Heaven.
They've shown us the exterior, a significant portion of the first floor, the stairs upwards, two rooms a half stair, and a hallway. From this, we can make several educated guesses about the remainder of the building, assuming it's no wider than we've seen and no taller than two floors.
But yes, a schematic would be nice. I want to know where their toilets are, dammit.
In Cot, Marlene was mentioned to be sleeping with Tifa, not Tifa and Cloud. And I don't remember reading something that pertains to Cloud and Tifa sleeping together in one bed to in one room.
She was mentioned to sleep with Tifa up to a week after they built the place. That tells us nothing much. And once again- pedantically, we have. The whole 'even if she waited until morning' scene suggests that Cloud and Tifa share the room, since he is completely nonplussed at her watching him sleep and talking to him, and comfortable enough to fall right back asleep with her still watching him.
Exactly. All assumption. All opinions. Nothing concrete is ever mentioned about 7th Heaven's lay-out. Haha.
I don't think Cloud was the type who'd chose a comfy bed anyways. I mean, I didn't see any bed in the Church where Cloud moved into after he left 7th Heaven.
Cloud moved into the church as an act of penance and redemption. He was in an exile and a quarantine. The point was atonement, not comfort. He went there for absolution and possibly the end. Comfort would be exactly antithetical to the point of going there.
And how lovely was it that Aerith helped him cure Denzel?
Quite nice of her, though entirely irrelevant in the long run without a whole boatload of supporting evidence or massive suppositions. Of course, if she DID send him to Cloud to take care of, she coulda done something about FATAL WASTING DISEASE quicker. She didn't- so yes, Cloud actually was wrong, as Aerith was unable to affect the living world at that time- but if she did, she's a lazy ass Messianic mother figure.
Hahaha. Too bad.
We'll just have to re-re-re-re-visit this at a la-a-la-la-later date.
Oh! This one:
Yeah. I guess I did. Sorry about that.
'Saright.
It's tiresome.
But it's so relevant to the topic it actually serves as a foundation for it. Cloud's overall mindset is, in the long and short, much of what this is about. WHO Cloud is and how he reacts to things, his motivations, and all that.
But guilt was part of the reason he left, as stated in U20. What else could be the reason for Cloud staying in Aerith's Church? He could have easily stayed somewhere with a suitable bed, couldn't he? And why did he have to leave Tifa?
He left Tifa because of the Disease. Despite all his prior guilt and feeling undeserving, he did not leave. He left because he thought the disease was the next phase of his punishment, maybe even for failing to take care of Denzel. So, as his disease was his punishment for his sins, he needed to be absolved of his sins, to be forgiven, so he went to the person he felt held the power to do so. He did not bring a bed because when you seek penance, you show your penitence by sacrifice.
Why did he want to die when he had Tifa, his love interest. Tifa was very much alive, and willing to help him even if she wasn't sure what Cloud wanted, needed even. Why give up when your supposed love interest is there with you in the living world? And if he did give up, why stay away from those who love you? Wouldn't it hurt them more if he died without spending time with them?
Cloud NEVER fucking wanted to die. I HATE this brainbug. If Cloud WANTED to die, Advent Children would have been eight minutes long since he would have let the SHM gank his ass.
I don't really understand this. Sorry. So I'm gonna reply based from my understanding.
I was pointing out the fact that Tifa knew how much Cloud was affected with Aerith's death. Tifa knew how close Cloud was to Aerith. Which in turn. gave her complicated feelings toward the dead flower girl.
But the complicated feelings don't arise from that Closeness they had- Tifa was just as close or closer to Aerith, but from how Tifa's best friend is also the reason why her man feels like shit. She remembers Aerith fondly, as a friend, but she has to deal with her as one of the reasons why Cloud cannot allow himself to accept his happiness.
No, she didn't know. Marlene had asked her "Does Cloud live here?" And she answered "I guess he does". She had no clue whatsoever that Cloud had been living there in the Church. They only decided to visit, and was surprised to find Cloud's things there.
Neither of you is technically correct on this. But mostly because Cloud had only just moved in. She confirmed what she'd suspected when they visited.
'Not anymore' denotes that he had been feeling alone until that moment.
Cloud had BEEN alone. He'd MADE himself alone. Both literally and previously emotionally. He kept his loved ones at an emotional distance. He did not want to be alone. He forced himself to be, because of his own inner demons.
Aerith told him everything's all right. This may be because Cloud had been feeling alone and useless/powerless to help anyone. His line (maybe) was to show he agree with Aerith's last line. Aerith already knew, and Zack did as well-they didn't need to realize it. It was Cloud who had realized that he was not alone anymore.
Yes, and so Zack and Aerith can leave in the whitespace of the beyond, knowing full well that Cloud has learned his lesson and can accept the assistance of those who have been around him. They don't wait for his answer. She asks 'You'll be okay, right' and leaves, which definitely adds an implied 'without us' to the question. Cloud isn't answering Aerith, even. He's affirming to himself. We hear his thoughts.
Which adds to the strain to whatever relationship they have.
Relationships do not exist without strain. Strain is not indicative of a bad or failed relationship. But one one period.
Isn't it possible that Tifa went into Cloud's room? There was no mention when they retired to their bed. And didn't Marlene sleep with Tifa? That conversation had no mention of waiting for Marlene to fall asleep, meaning Marlene wasn't there, or was in another room. Oh well, just assumptions really.
Tifa waited and made sure Cloud was asleep. She can't do this without observing him. Since we don't see any movement description, she was waiting in the room he fell asleep in. Cloud fell asleep while Tifa waited.
And Marlene slept with Tifa for a short period. Not long term.
True. He had been visiting there without telling anyone, even Tifa. Which was why he acted like a kid who knew he was in for a scolding when he was about to tell Tifa that.
As mentioned, that was about the job, not the church.
He did flinch when she found out about the church, but only because he hadn't been taking her, which is what she was upset about.
Yes, Aerith was a hindrance to Sephiroth's plan. She was also someone very dear to Cloud (that, as Cait Sith predicted he would lose), which would affect Cloud more.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
You do NOT quote Cait Sith's predictions as proof. For one, he is DESCRIBED as an unreliable fortune teller. For two, that prediction could mean ANYTHING, including his mind. It might mean nothing and just act as a ruse to get him on the team. For three- NONE of his other predictions come true, and again, this one does only because it's so vague it's infalsifiable. You'll get something good, but lose something else, too!
And like you said, killing two birds with one stone: 1. show Cloud that Sephiroth can control him; and 2. cause him great deal of pain
No. 1. Kill the biggest threat to his plans, and . Break him by showing him he's a controllable puppet by having him kill his friend. When 2 failed, Sephiroth stepped in to ensure 1 and salvage 2.
We can only assume why Sephiroth did it the way he did. I don't remember anyone giving a quote as to why Sephiroth acted in that manner. But we do see how devastated Cloud was with Aerith's death. His reaction had meaningful lines with it, do they not? I didn't hear him say those ind of things when Zack died.
Apples and Oranges. Cloud was a drug addled half-vegetable when Zack died and he STILL screamed his heart out. Comparitively, Aerith's death lines aren't quite so compelling.
Also, it's her death and Sephiroth's speech that are the notable things, there.
Maybe because SE wanted to portray that Aerith's death had a greater impact on Cloud compared to Zack's death. Cloud easily visits Zack's grave, but he can't do the same with Aerith's grave. Everytime the Forbidden City was put in the topic, his emotions seem to stir.
Zack's grave is ~30 minutes away. Aerith's is ~5-6 hours. At least. OTOH, he does visit a memorial for both.
And Zack doesn't get shoved into a corner, IMO. Cloud visits his grave, showing how his friend is still important for him.
She means by the fandom rather than narrative. Zack IS important to him. And that needs to be taken into account. Compare and contrast Zack and Aerith, their demises, and the way both affect him post mortem.
Thanks for the clarification guys. But I guess what I meant was in terms of shipping. Zack's death is made to seem like nothing in comparison to Aerith's death just because of shipper logic. I think AC/C did a fine job of showing us how Cloud views both deaths. I just dislike it when Zack's death is tossed aside so easily for shipper reasons. That's all I was implying. Should have been clearer, I guess.
Quite often in this discussion- the whole of it, not merely this thread or forum- I have had to remind those with whom I was talking of Zack's very existence, including in AC/C's last sequence, as they have had a tendency to ignore him when convenient.
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying but my point is he'd have been equally devastated had it been someone like Tifa. His lines would have been just as meaningful if it were her carcass in his arms. So no, I don't see it as romantic. I just see it as painful, raw and emotional because one of his dear friends died before him, killed by his enemy. His speech was beautiful (even though I prefer the AerTi moment over it
). I just don't see it as highly romantic. To each their own, though.
If there be romance in it, it would not be because of the words themselves, but because of a previously established romantic attachment. Had Red died and not Aerith, no one would be accusing Cloud of bestiality.
He was sort of still mind fucked.
And his shrieking cry of agony, I think, had plenty of emotion in it (Sakurai, of course). But that's just me.
The VA thinks it was pretty 'soul rending' so no, not just you.
Hey, it's Cloud Strife we're talking about here. He's not known for being good at communicating with those around him. And he's pretty sensitive.
Anyway.. Cloud probably felt like he didn't deserve his family.
This quote pretty much explains why he act the way he does.
"The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"
Yes. Because Cloud is happy, he feels guilty. In other words, Cloud feels guilt over that happiness. His family makes him happy. He feels guilty because he has a family that makes him happy.
Huh, and I thought Marlene(and Denzel) got their own room later.
They did. Kinda impossible to miss.
Tifa and Marlene didn't share the same bed forever, you know.
Honestly.. I would find it weird if someone just walked into my room and started talking when I was sleeping.
At the very least, you would question what the hell they were doing there.
Yeah... He was probably cheating with Aerith's ghost.
No, but.. Obviously Cloud wasn't over her death yet. And she was his recent failure.
No one was entirely over her yet. Ribbons abound in AC/C.
Cloud felt culpability in addition to grief.
Cloud appeared as a cold Ex-SOLDIER in the beginning of FF7. And then you're slowly starting to realize that he
do care about things. (<--I think getting to know Aerith triggers that) And when she dies, he gets devastated. This may sound cheesy, but Aerith kind of showed him a new world. Eh, but sure! Her death scene can be seen as romantic, it just makes the plot twist even better.
Not sure it's getting to know Aerith that TRIGGERS it. Helps it along, sure, but you realize he does give more damn than he lets on pretty quick. Even the act is putting on an act.
Wow. So many people to reply to. Tsk. It'd be fun to just skip, y'know?
Wait a minute. I wasn't even aiming for a debate. But it turns out this way. Wow.
And I think it's safe to assume that most of those replying to my post for Ryu are shippers of CloudxTifa, so I'm left alone to reply to all of you regarding my posts.
You'll find the majority of people are 'shippers' of C/T by default, really. The evidence is rather conclusory at this point.
Ryu, this is why I don't like threads. Everyone joins in. It was fun talking with just you though, oh and Vendel.
I'll be replying to the posts when I get enough time. They're just too many for me right now.
Reply to you all on Wednesday!
By contrast, I prefer threads where I can big blockquote and respond to things.
Incidentally, it is friday.
Also incidentally, I have no home internet til Monday, so if you respond before then, I may not see it.
Only important part to me. This always grinds my gears.
Incorrect. Sephiroth did not kill Aeris because she was very dear to Cloud. He makes no such statement at any point and it's actually fairly easy to understand his motives as he spells it out.
Aeris poses a threat to his plans. "We must stop that girl soon," he says. Please also note that Sephiroth always refers to Aeris as "that girl" or something similar. I don't think I remember him ever using her name. "..I will become one with the Planet, as will this girl" etc, etc. He doesn't pick her because he thinks she's somehow special to Cloud or himself. As he says, "she's thinking of interfering".
That's it.
The reason he involves Cloud is because by forcing him to do Sephiroth's bidding, he demonstrates once and for all that Sephiroth is right -- that Cloud has no will of his own. That he is a puppet. This is a thread that's been made blatantly obvious in AUs. Practically Cloud's entire story in Dissidia and Tactics and almost everything else. Aeris dying by Cloud's hand cements Sephiroth's dominance over Cloud once and for all. THIS is Sephiroth's motive for wanting Cloud to kill Aeris at his command.
He was knocked off his pedestal when Cloud, a mere shit soldier, beat him in Nibelheim. His vendetta against Cloud is all about winning the biggest dick contest.
Had Sephiroth wanted Cloud to simply feel great pain, he would not reply with "What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?"when Cloud asks "WHAT ABOUT MY PAIN?"
He would not dismiss Cloud's pain. That'd be counterproductive. He would not tell the guy to basically forget about his painful feelings. He would let him wallow in his pain. But Sephiroth doesn't want him to feel. He wants Cloud reduced to nothing. Sephiroth doesn't give a shit about what Cloud feels for Aeris, only what he feels about Sephiroth. Sephiroth wants him to know he is a puppet, a mere extension of Sephiroth's will. Inferior, at the command of his superior.
Sephiroth: "I want to take you back to your real self. The one who gave me the Black Materia that day..."
Quite. Sephiroth wants Cloud to feel POWERLESS, to feel he can do nothing, but also that he's controllable. If making him kill Aerith was for any reason apart from just showing him he can be controlled, it was because he had promised to protect her. But really, it was to get her dead first and Cloud broken second.
I would like to help, but I'm not very good at debating. )=
/ I sucksucksucksucksucksucksucksucksucksucksucksucksucksucksuck.
Only way to get better is to try.
And Aerith is a Cetra. She was praying and basically trying to summon Holy to thwart Sephiroth's diabolical plan to destroy the planet. Killing her was going to make Sephy's life a whole lot easier. He also knew she was someone dear to Cloud. Killing two birds with one stone. 
