The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Tifabelle]

Or they could share a room with two single beds.

That's originally how I imagined it anyways.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Or they could share a room with two single beds.

Then why share a room at all? If they have enough space to waste an entire room for spare tires and a cot, I'm sure they could have just split the rooms to begin with and Cloud could sleep with all his shit. Then at least Tifa wouldn't have to listen to him snore.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's.... possible too, but I find that a bit hard to believe seeing as how FFVII isn't the 1930's of the United States according to television family sitcoms, and I doubt there's an abundance of beds that allow for such a wasteful use of space and furniture.

If they did that, that would be completely nonsensical. Why bother?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Cloud has a *cot* in his office. Along with a spare tire and various tools.

A cot, huh? It kind of looks like a bed Cloud would sleep in every night, to me.

And unless you believe Tifa's a creepy stalker who watches Cloud sleep all the way until morning, then I think the only... logical explanation is to go by the fact they probably share a bed. Which is not unusual in the least. Unless you try to make it be.

Yeah.. I guess you're right then.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's a cot. A small one person size bed. It's not even a twin, ffs. It looks like a cot a Japanese salaryman would have in their office for the nights they end up staying at work in the office. Which is surprisingly often.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Look at the kids' by comparison. I mean, I know they're kids, but Cloud's office bed doesn't even have a blanket. It's a white sheet.

Also, no closet, no chest of drawers (kids have one). Where are his clothes? Where are his belongings? Hell, does he change his underwear? I'm pretty sure Fenrir has no underwear compartment.

EDIT: actually, it does have blinds.

 

[Zee]

You're saying that aside from being the only threat to his Meteor plans, he also noticed that not only was she friendly with Cloud, but she was the closest to Cloud? That would mean that Sephiroth took special notice of her above AVALANCHE prior to the shishkabob incident.

Sephiroth was listening in on the dream message between Aeris and Cloud which gave him all he needed to know which was Cloud was protective over her + harming her made him feel like shit = it would be neat to force Cloud to kill her himself, thus getting rid of an obstacle and mentally breaking his adversary.

Also if Cloud has a bed in his room/office that's probably where he sleeps. They probably slept on a lot worse than shitty cots tbh I don't see why it matters

edit: idk to me it makes sense that the parental figures (with limited funds since they're still living in a slum really) would spend the money they had on the children, one of whom was sick and dying and worry about their own comforts second.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How is Cloud and Tifa spending money on one bed to sleep in, in their bedroom, taking away money to spend on Denzel? If anything, it'd be much more wasteful and ridiculous to buy TWO beds to put in one bedroom and sleep in them.

Likewise Cloud having another bedroom and sleeping in it would be just as pointless. Why would a cot in an office that has absolutely no trappings of any sort of liveable bedroom for a family serve as a Cloud's bed, when there's a perfectly good bed in the bedroom belonging to the adults?

An office. No clothes. No furniture. Tools. A tire. An old cot with only a white sheet on it. That's all that room is. How does that logically equate to Cloud's bedroom? Lots of Japanese men who have offices also have a cot in there just in case they stay late and don't want to come home and disturb the small household. It serves as a back up.

And it matters because it's another piece of the Cloud and Tifa relationship and family. Only a bizarre 1940's sitcom getting around FCC regulations, would have two lovers sleep in separate beds or in two different rooms. It just doesn't make sense in the context.

And it also matters in the sense of how Tifa asked Cloud if he loved her. Are we to believe she stood in the doorway and watched him in his office sleep for several hours into the morning, or that she was laying next to him and watching him, while she herself was in the bed next to him. Which makes more narrative sense?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

so honest question:

why couldn't tifa have been uncomfortable with getting a bed for two people and just gotten a single person bed when cloud got the tiny-ass cot? maybe she just was worried about them as a couple and didn't buy one for two grown adults.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over.

I'm going to assume it's officially used as an office, which is what it looks like, considering it has nothing, not even a chair, to make it look liveable.

 

[Makoeyes987]

so honest question:

why couldn't tifa have been uncomfortable with getting a bed for two people and just gotten a single person bed when cloud got the tiny-ass cot? maybe she just was worried about them as a couple and didn't buy one for two grown adults.

What indication is there that she would choose to give Cloud a tiny, uncomfortable, cot with not even a blanket, than have him sleep in the bed with her, when she apparently loves him so much and wants to start a family with him and be with him? Why would she want to sleep alone when before under the Highwind she was more than happy to sleep next to him, and do the whole "words aren't the only way to convey feelings?"

How would that make any sense within the narrative and context of their relationship from FFVII to ACC?

 

[Roger]

Why in God's name are we talking about what Tifa was comfortable buying. Have you watched AC lately. Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are all wearing Cloudy Wolf jewelry. They had money to burn. Cloud used money for a giant motorcycle behind Tifa. Why is it such a gigantic problem to think Cloud would use some of that money to buy something a human bring could feasibly sleep on? Seriously, what the hell guys?

 

[Shademp]

Or they could share a room with two single beds.

That's originally how I imagined it anyways.

Same here and to me this makes sense.

The lack of physical intimacy between Cloud and Tifa makes me interpret that neither character is especially fond of touch and that personal space is very important.
We've never seen the two even hug each other. Tifa leaned on Cloud's shoulder under the Highwind. The most touch has involved life-and-death situations, like the FMV in the bottom of the Northern Crater where Cloud saves Tifa, and one or two instances in ACC. THAT'S IT.
Ok, Tifa seemingly touched Cloud's knees...when he was a vegetable in the Mideel hospital!

Granted, it might be that the two just aren't comfortable with *public* displays of affection, but not even the novellas has a sentence saying "then Cloud & Tifa held each other" when the two are alone. I can't base my thinking on what they *might* be doing when neither the games nor the novellas are watching.

So to me, Cloud & Tifa remain one of the must unconvincing lovers I have ever seen depicted in any story. I am not disputing the canon of their relationship, but I can't picture these two being comfortable with sleeping in the same bed every night. I can't motivate exactly why, but in a psychological light their traumatized past may be the cause for them needing so much personal space.

If dealt with in a tongue-in-cheek manner, I would appreciate the final chronological Compilation title to show them learning more how to act as a real couple. Wow, what a tear-jerker that would be.

*humorously pictures Cloud and Tifa in a couple counseling session*

EDIT: I realise now that this comment does not address which is more likely; that they'd have two single beds in the same room or sleep in two completely different rooms. Honestly, I do not know. Even though they are a distant couple, them sleeping in two completely different rooms feels a bit too distant, even when it comes to Cloud & Tifa.

 

[Kobato]

Why in God's name are we talking about what Tifa was comfortable buying. Have you watched AC lately. Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are all wearing Cloudy Wolf jewelry. They had money to burn. Cloud used money for a giant motorcycle behind Tifa. Why is it such a gigantic problem to think Cloud would use some of that money to buy something a human bring could feasibly sleep on? Seriously, what the hell guys?

Weeeell Cloud stole his first motorbike from the Shrin- ra. Maybe he thought that they had some great stuff, and stole some more ?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

What indication is there that she would choose to give Cloud a tiny, uncomfortable, cot with not even a blanket, than have him sleep in the bed with her, when she apparently loves him so much and wants to start a family with him and be with him? Why would she want to sleep alone when before under the Highwind she was more than happy to sleep next to him, and do the whole "words aren't the only way to convey feelings?"

How would that make any sense within the narrative and context of their relationship from FFVII to ACC?

Why would she ask him if he loves her? Why would she feel worried about him at all in CoT? Because she worries about their relationship because Cloud keeps everything bottled up.

Yes, they did have sex or whatever under the Highwind. Having sex once isn't going to solve everyone's insecurities about a relationship and can, in fact, make someone more worried about it. You can be a couple without sleeping in the same bed and you can be a couple even when you're having problems. IDK why this seems so black and white to you (either they're sleeping together and a couple or they're not sleeping together and not a couple) when ACC didn't portray their relationship as that simplistic in the least.

 

[Roger]

Why would she ask him if he loves her? Why would she feel worried about him at all in CoT? Because she worries about their relationship because Cloud keeps everything bottled up.

Yes, they did have sex or whatever under the Highwind. Having sex once isn't going to solve everyone's insecurities about a relationship and can, in fact, make someone more worried about it. You can be a couple without sleeping in the same bed and you can be a couple even when you're having problems. IDK why this seems so black and white to you (either they're sleeping together and a couple or they're not sleeping together and not a couple) when ACC didn't portray their relationship as that simplistic in the least.

Cloud left and was dying quickly and painfully in ACC, I really wouldn't use that as a guideline of what their every day life looks like.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Cloud left and was dying quickly and painfully in ACC, I really wouldn't use that as a guideline of what their every day life looks like.

CoT tells us though that Cloud is frequently away on deliveries, frequently enough that even though Tifa is worried about him at the beginning of the story, she can rationalize it as a delivery he's on. She also acknowledges that they do have various problems. This combined with the fact Tifa already has a hard time talking about some things to Cloud, says to me that she wouldn't just go get a bed for the two of them without consulting him. I doubt she'd be presumptive enough to be like 'we slept together under the Highwind, of COURSE he wants to sleep together with me now.'

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I want to briefly address this:

Tifa and Marlene were cleaning the room that was now Cloud’s office

I find it very odd if this is Cloud's room, that it's refered to, for the second time in the text, simply as Cloud's office. It would be a lot shorter to just say Tifa and Marlene were cleaning Cloud's room. Or if they wanted to be a lot more specific and mention the office, Cloud's room that was now his office. It seems to suggest that room was used after Cloud started up Strife Delivery.

I mean aside from the fact that it simply doesn't look liveable, (no chair, no wardrobe/shelves or anything to put his clothes in (he certainly didn't take those items with him to the church), it does seem like the writer means for Cloud to sleep elsewhere despite it having a cot.

CoT tells us though that Cloud is frequently away on deliveries, frequently enough that even though Tifa is worried about him at the beginning of the story, she can rationalize it as a delivery he's on.

My uncle is married with kids and is very, very frequently away on the road as he drives a bus across the country. His family life is fine, tbh. Families where the husband is away are not all doom and gloom. That's his job.
And it was after all Tifa who encouraged Cloud to actually start delivering seriously, not just on the side to modify his bike.

Not that you said this, but I get the feeling people think Cloud just preferred being away from his family, which isn't true. Or that his being away was what led to problems.

Tifa thought it was wonderful how Cloud, who wasn’t very sociable, was doing a job that connected people through his delivery service

 

[Ryushikaze]

Chalk mine up as another one where the father travels a lot for business. He even rents a small apartment in Colorado he's in the state so much on business.

And yeah, things are tough all over, but Money isn't one of the problems the 7th Heaven crew faces, given their phones, jewelry, wooden beds, etc.

As for their troubles not leading them to get a shared bed, recall that the troubles did not begin immediately. They began well after the group moved in and Cloud began getting anxious about his newfound peaceful life and began to feel guilty about it.
Right at the start, Cloud was rather chipper, and if not necessarily sociable, he was socializing.

And yeah, there's no way Cloud preferred being away from the family. They made him happy and even happier. If he was away, I'm still saying it's because he felt he must be. Throwing himself into his work to avoid his worries, or as penance for his perceived transgressions.

And Ace, the novella's rather clear he got the bike in trade. The SHM stole their stuff, natch, but Cloud went through legitimate channels this time.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Serious question: If Cloud and Tifa aren't sleeping in a bed together, how do you choreograph that scene in CoT?

 

[Roger]

CoT tells us though that Cloud is frequently away on deliveries, frequently enough that even though Tifa is worried about him at the beginning of the story, she can rationalize it as a delivery he's on. She also acknowledges that they do have various problems. This combined with the fact Tifa already has a hard time talking about some things to Cloud, says to me that she wouldn't just go get a bed for the two of them without consulting him. I doubt she'd be presumptive enough to be like 'we slept together under the Highwind, of COURSE he wants to sleep together with me now.'

Again, why exactly do you think that for them to have one bed, Tifa would need to be the one to buy it without Cloud being in on it?

Maybe Cloud came onto her, why the heck not?

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”
Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.
“Because I have you this time.”

“You’ve always had me.”
“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

This kind of tells me that Cloud was still interested. I dunno, maybe he meant as a business partner instead of friend but.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Serious question: If Cloud and Tifa aren't sleeping in a bed together, how do you choreograph that scene in CoT?

Tifa having a question for him, maybe just outside of the room, and thinking about how to say it, and when she finally thinks of what she wants to say, she pops into the room and notices he's asleep, but asks anyways.

As for their troubles not leading them to get a shared bed, recall that the troubles did not begin immediately. They began well after the group moved in and Cloud began getting anxious about his newfound peaceful life and began to feel guilty about it.
Right at the start, Cloud was rather chipper, and if not necessarily sociable, he was socializing.

you would think that sort of stuff would be important enough for Cloud to be the one to bring up getting a shared bed and Tifa remembering this conversation as one of the 'good times' in CoT.

As such, we don't really have anything that says they slept in the same bed beyond circumstantial evidence.

 

[ForceStealer]

And yeah, things are tough all over, but Money isn't one of the problems the 7th Heaven crew faces, given their phones, jewelry, wooden beds, etc.

Well I certainly hope not. I spent an assload of time accumulating my 24,000,000 gil.

As for choreographing that scene without a shared bed, it could be the I Love Lucy strategy of the two twin beds - similar to the kids' room.

 

[Roger]

Tifa having a question for him, maybe just outside of the room, and thinking about how to say it, and when she finally thinks of what she wants to say, she pops into the room and notices he's asleep, but asks anyways.

Which CoT very specifically makes clear is not how that scene went down

you would think that sort of stuff would be important enough for Cloud to be the one to bring up getting a shared bed and Tifa remembering this conversation as one of the 'good times' in CoT.

The start of Cloud and Tifa's sexual relationship was given all the attention SE was comfortable giving it back in FFVII. Cloud and Tifa being more then friends is something of given, the tenure where someone else was sleeping in Tifa's bed is what bared noting.

As such, we don't really have anything that says they slept in the same bed beyond circumstantial evidence.[/QUOTE]


Yes, we only know that Cloud's room was turned into an office as opposed to what was before, that the cot that was in there doesn't have so much as a matress, as opposed to anything and everything else in their full-furnished lives, that from wherever Cloud was sleeping Tifa was able to be close enough to him to monitor his breathing efficiently enough to tell when sleep started without him either questioning or noticing her presence and more importantly, Cloud is comfortable enough to go back right to sleep while she's still musing on stuff without feeling the need to tell her leave or that he's going to sleep or anything, and Tifa feels free to stay in the room throughout the night without feeling she's intruding if she wanted.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tifa having a question for him, maybe just outside of the room, and thinking about how to say it, and when she finally thinks of what she wants to say, she pops into the room and notices he's asleep, but asks anyways.

But the novella specifies she waited until she made sure he was asleep. That's the action in the scene. No movement. Just waiting and watching. And talking.

you would think that sort of stuff would be important enough for Cloud to be the one to bring up getting a shared bed and Tifa remembering this conversation as one of the 'good times' in CoT.

Considering that all the details of building the thing were boiled down to 'Barret gave orders loudly and Cloud corrected them' it well could have happened and Noj just didn't give enough of a shit to go into them. He did have to cover two years in what, 40 pages?

As such, we don't really have anything that says they slept in the same bed beyond circumstantial evidence.

This is entirely true.
We do, however, have evidence that the room we see in AC/C with the bed is not Cloud's sleeping quarters, but his office. It's called that on several occasions. Never his bedroom. The closest we've ever heard to this is 'go drink in your room,' but I don't put much stock in this, since my mother has said the same to my father in the past and they do share a bed. We have evidence that Cloud is absolutely and entirely comfortable with Tifa being in his room watching him sleep, so much so he does not so much as raise an eyebrow at it, and can fall back to sleep immediately. We have it on 'word of writer' that Cloud and Tifa have a future together, and where they belong is with each other.
I spoke of logic leaps earlier. I ask you this- is it a large leap in logic for a man and a woman, even those who are somewhat introverted, to share a bed when they are in a relationship?

We may only have circumstantial evidence that they share a bed, but the evidence required for something need only suffice to the level of what is being asserted. A grown man and woman in a relationship sharing a bed not only isn't an extraordinary claim, it's actually generally presumed.

Well I certainly hope not. I spent an assload of time accumulating my 24,000,000 gil.

They rent out Costa Del Sol for added income. It all makes sense now.

As for choreographing that scene without a shared bed, it could be the I Love Lucy strategy of the two twin beds - similar to the kids' room.

I actually can see Barret having bought all the beds the gang currently owns in one sweep. A giant bed of some sort for Marlene "I got a king sized. Didn't have any four poster beds in, tho." the twins for Cloud and Tifa "Whattaya mean too small? They're tall enough for ya!" and the cot for himself. Because he's insane. And then logic prevails and Marlene gets a small bed and C and T take the big bed.