The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[aerbear]

Actually, she asked for an unambiguous quote stating Cloud romantically loved Aerith or the equivalent. I'll let her judge if it meets her criteria, but from where I sit, it says neither that she can be a romantic interest or that he can love Aerith without ambiguity.

We'll just have to see what she says.

Even for the things she has said and done to our faces and on this very forum?

Yes.

The high affection scene is not on the FTOIL page. The FTOIL page is version unspecific.

My bad, then.
The quotes saying the HA version depicts a different emotion should've been what I said.

And Bolding doesn't work?

 

[Wolfmania]

You hate Cloud as well?

This response's epic levels are over 9000.

Nicely done!

 

[Ⓐaron]

Because a lot of people seem to be forgetting the rules, let me remind everyone that they are still in effect. It is still against the rules to make a post in this thread that is irrelevant to the love triangle debate. We'll let it slide occasionally if it is a direct response to misconceptions people have about the way the board works or something else along those lines (see the posts from Aki and myself along those lines recently) but on the whole, if it does not directly relate to the love triangle debate, it is not allowed.

I would also like to point out that Fairheartstrife was not warned (not infracted; she did not receive points) for using emoticons, but was warned for the tone of her posts, which multiple users complained about. The warning message she received was pretty clear about this (part of the message was "Please be more civil and less sarcastic"), so I am not sure why she was confused. She is not the only person to be thus warned recently; she is merely the only one who complained about it. We were letting the rules go for awhile and not warning people when they got a bit snarky with one another, but since people have started complaining again we're no longer being so lenient. If you can't be nice to people you disagree with, please don't respond to them.

It's also worth pointing out, although this is probably obvious, that her post doing nothing but complaining about her warning was also directly against the rules of this thread, precisely because it does not relate to the love triangle debate at all.

If you are confused about the rules, read the opening posts again, where they are laid out pretty clearly. We have not been giving people infraction points recently, but that's probably going to stop pretty soon because we're sick of having to deal with new reported posts every time we log in. The rules really aren't that complicated or difficult to follow, so there's no excuse for people slipping up so often.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Rena]

Actually, I thought the quote was more about how she was portrayed in AC/C in general, that she was more independent, didn't need to rely on a man, but who was at the same time not emotionally hurt- and the discussion on whether or not she was clingy was an afterthought.

I never thought AC/C or Case of Tifa portrayed her as clingly, just worried, supportive, and stern. FFVII you might have a better chance arguing that, but Cloud was much more clingy on her than vice versa, it might have something to do with her entire town and almost everyone she loves dying. Twice. And the mental fuckery of Sephiroth.
That's true but not completely. Tifa and Cloud do have issues communicating, but in the end, they always do. They take a roundabout way of it, but they will always have a moment where they open up to each other. Every significant Cloud/Tifa moment is about them communicating to each other. The childhood promise, the Lifestream event, and the Highwind scene, all have undertones of them discussing their feelings either of or to each other. This happens in CoT and finally AC/C.

I think the issues with martyr is that it carries a connotation that she was willing to give up or let herself burden everything. But she wasn't, Tifa did shoulder a lot of the problems, but she actively tried to make things better. She tried to understand Cloud, tried to get Cloud to understand her, and tried to make things a better place. She didn't just let him lay the emotional baggage everywhere, she gave him space to be himself and when things looked bad, she went to confront him about it.

Tifa's doing a balancing trick to be sure. But one that seems to have produced results.

I'm not saying it isn't a hurdle, but it's a hurdle they always surpass.
Because Clouds trips were less about Aerith and their relationship to her, than him trying to relive the guilt he keeps pouring on himself. It wasn't healthy, and I seriously doubt Aerith would have wanted it. His memories of Aerith were tinged with negative thoughts.

This ends by the end of AC/C when he places the Zack's sword in the church. It shows that rather having negative connotations of their death's, instead it's a fond memory of their lives and what they accomplished. Hence the sword is now being upkept and we see clear signs of water, which washed away all the taint in the world, and in Cloud.

EDIT

I am so glad I was here to see this.

The pinnacle of the LTD. Truly a moment worth waiting for.

You know what? I actually like your posts ‘cause instead of automatically trying to disprove my point of view, you let me have a pick on yours and so far, you’re probably the one that’s gotten me thinking more about other possibilities.

Not saying I love Cloti, I think I never will but maybe I’ll get to see the “good” side of it.

AGREED. Cloud made a douche move in AC/C and I was so happy when Tifa finally ragged him out for it. The fact that she waited for him was both admirable and also annoying because I might still feel that he just doesn't deserve her after everything. But point is, he does realize he screwed up and by the end of the movie, he atones for it and will most likely never do that again. especially because tifa will so leave his ass the next time he tries it.

I still don't feel martyr is a correct term to use. :T Tifa does get offended. You can tell she is when she snaps at him in AC/C, It's just that she had kept it bottled up, putting up with it because she has faith in Cloud, despite her doubts. Also, because it wasn't just herself to consider; it was the kids she was thinking about, too. If it's one thing about Tifa I love, it's her selflessness when it comes to those dear to her. Tifa can't abandon the kids, she can't give up hope because she doesn't want them to feel like all hope is lost, especially in the time with geostigma and hardships of AC/C.

Without the kids there, I think it's very possible Tifa would have left. She does express this desire in CoT at the beginning before Cloud tells her he wants to stay with her. But do correct me if I'm wrong; my CoT memory is fuzzy.

I’ll try to give it a thought and try not to be so opinionated about her character. I promise.

I don't think she's trying to force him into letting her come. I think it was just her way of letting him know he has to stop thinking he's all alone. But that's just an opinion.

Yeah, maybe…I just pointed this out to try to prove my point that Cloud has a hard time getting his “family” involved in his own personal world and because Ryu keeps saying that the line in FFVII’s ending really meant “WE” [I think WE can meet her there] instead of “I think I meet her there” which I absolutely believe it’s not true.

If he meant “WE” since the beginning (FFVII)…then why is he not sharing it now with Tifa?

Now that, I agree with. I just don't believe people would rather get frustrated over pixels than report insulting posts, or ask nicely for it to stop. Some of us don't even realize that sarcasm is taken so seriously. Just point out what's wrong if something's wrong. I just don't understand... have some of you never been on a lot of Forums or...

Blame it on the heat of the moment. We all get frustrated every now and then, what makes the difference is actually recognizing you don’t always act the good way while on the heat.

Also I lol when others say "you people". It's like we're different races or something... Time to grow up. xD

I do not intend for it to be taken that way. I’m not form the USA so if I’m doing something wrong, I’d appreciate you let me know.

Actually there have been irl cases of such. And of people who have had cancer or other serious illness and died from it without ever telling their loved ones.

That doesn't justify the stupidity of it. But it's not unheard of.

Yeah, it happens…however, I guess we both agree it’s not the smartest of choices.

You hate Tifa based on Cloud's actions though. idgi. Even if you think Cloud's an asshole for ditching his family (which is also an incorrect assessment btw), I don't see why this reflects poorly on Tifa. Because she doesn't leave his ass?

Because she just stays there waiting for things to turn the way she wants them to be while hurting on the process; especially because these things she wants to change always come from Cloud.

guuuuurl.

u.u

Based on AC/C?

How do you feel about Aerith?

I like the fact that Aerith is an outspoken person, however there were times in the original game where I also felt she was kind of pushy.

What I like about this, even though she might be pushy and impulsive, I get the feeling it works better for Cloud. After all, they grew close pretty quickly and he actually let her in, in comparison to Tifa’s quiet ways which seem to crash with Cloud’s introverted personality.

I don’t know if you want me to post all my opinions about her but if you do, let me know.

You keep using that word, but I don't think you know what it means. Cloud may be masochistic and self-flagellating, but "passive-aggressive" is hardly accurate.

Trust me, I know what passive-aggressive means and not by looking for definitions on a dictionary.

The patients show childlike, submissive and apparently defeated attitudes in positions imposing stress and requiring responsibility. They attempt at times to gain control of people by emotional manipulation rather than entering into adult negotiations and relationships.

Isn’t this exactly what Cloud did?
Running away from his family, avoiding confrontation and not dealing with the situation as a responsible adult would but instead, he acted like a child who just went off and hide from the problem.

 

[Marle]

Yeah, maybe…I just pointed this out to try to prove my point that Cloud has a hard time getting his “family” involved in his own personal world and because Ryu keeps saying that the line in FFVII’s ending really meant “WE” [I think WE can meet her there] instead of “I think I meet her there” which I absolutely believe it’s not true.

I he meant “WE” since the beginning (FFVII)…then why is he not sharing it now with Tifa?

That's Ryu's argument so I won't be commenting on it.

Because she just stays there waiting for things to turn the way she wants them to be while hurting on the process; especially because these things she wants to change always come from Cloud.

I have a question for you, just out of curiosity; do you feel that had Aerith's and Tifa's roles been switched, Cloud wouldn't have done what he did to Tifa in AC/C to Aerith, also? I'm genuinely curious about what you think.

Isn’t this exactly what Cloud did?
Running away from his family, avoiding confrontation and not dealing with the situation as a responsible adult would but instead, he acted like a child who just went off and hide from the problem.

Now, I may not be an LTD guru, but you just touched on something I am pretty knowledgeable about, seeing as how I'm spending four years in university studying it.

I've worked with many different patients with varying degrees of illness, many severe, many fatal. And let me tell you right now; running away and hiding from the problem is actually a lot more common in fully grown and mature adults than you'd think. They deem this as a way of coping. To them, it protects their loved ones. They do not wish to be a burden and it pains them to know they are.

I'm going to get a bit personal here but, this idea has affected myself, hitting really close to home with my sick mother. I've experienced it first hand and I've worked with families and clients who were also going through it. Terminal illness is a difficult process to go through with so many aspects to it that it's simply unfair to go in that room and judge my client for being 'childish' because the way they cope, to me, is incorrect.

If every nurse thought that way, this world would just seem a little sadder.

In short, distance, although not the greatest decision to make, is perfectly normal when it concerns someone who is very sick. Many people on their deathbeds tell me that they don't want to see their family, especially with how they look. It doesn't mean that they don't love them, miss them or wish to be with them; quite the opposite. They are miserable because of this decision. It's sad, because it pains them this way, too and it's clear that the distance isn't healthy for either person involved.

So, in a way, I understand Cloud's motives and intentions; he does it for what he thinks is the best, but it does only cause more hurt for both parties involved instead of doing what he wants it to.

 

[Rena]

A complete non sequitor. Unless by 'button' you mean asshole, which is strange, I don't mind saying.

What about badass?

5 years of ecoterrorism doesn't say enough about her personality?

What about her inner motivations?

Then you are using those terms incredibly incorrectly.

Just because you say it's incorrect, does not make it incorrect.

Yeah, That's not passive aggressive OR masochistic.

Then what is it? Being so over-considerate that you end up neglecting other people's feelings?

Cloud is myopic, not self centered. He's thinking of other when he does what he does- he just fails to realize he's doing the wrong thing for those people.

How in heaven those that justify the fact that in reality, he's still doing the wrong thing?

As mentioned, this is a function of the site. You should have one now.

Thank you, just got it. I'll make sure I use it.

We don't. But we do recognize that one can make anyone who's been emotionally hurt by someone seem clingy, and that a conscious decision to make sure that was not the case

I still find it suspicious that they feel the need to clear that up.

By Cloud. When he left, doing the dumbest thing he could thinking it was the only good option.


A number of reasons suggest themselves, including the idea that Cloud did not want to ruin her respectful moment with his search for forgiveness, that he simply thought he should seek atonement on his own and not worry his family with the burden. Another is that that sentence is so out of character for Cloud it's just plain silly.

Still hurting people in the process with his masochistic ways.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Yo, this wasn't addressed to me but I am bored and it was there so... yeah. Gonna speak up after all.

What about her inner motivations?

REVENGE!!! Her motivation is BLOODY VENGEANCE against Shinra. This is not a mystery, she pretty well tells us this is why she got into AVALANCHE in the first place.

Just because you say it's incorrect, does not make it incorrect.

The fact that it is incorrect makes it incorrect.

Then what is it? Being so over-considerate that you end up neglecting other people's feelings?

I've done this personally, making shit worse while trying to prevent people from having to deal with said shit. And its not at all uncommon in fiction. Off hand, Spider-man seems a good example. Lots of folks real and imaginary alike screw things up by trying to leave their loved ones out of whatever is wrong. Its almost always portrayed as a mistake, but people MAKE those, ya know?

How in heaven those that justify the fact that in reality, he's still doing the wrong thing?

They don't. They EXPLAIN why he was doing things the way he did. You're not supposed to be on his side about his douchey running away behavior, you're supposed to cheer when Tifa lays into him about how big of a fatalistic asshat he's being.

I still find it suspicious that they feel the need to clear that up.

Can't argue with your position exactly, but it seems rather silly to contradict what they said because it "seems suspicious". Either way, it stands that they have told us Tifa was specifically intended to be NOT CLINGY, ya know?

Still hurting people in the process with his masochistic ways.

I do not think you know what a masochist actually is, nor do you use masochistic at all correctly.

 

[Anastar]

Tres

Just for shits and giggles, can you even provide so much as an official quote from anywhere saying Cloud fell in love with Aerith in a past tense setting? That's possibly the funniest thing about all this.

Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) ~ CoLW, by Nojima

You know full well the word used there was "koibito" and that being someone's koibito means only that they desire you. It literally says nothing about your feelings as the koibito.

According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.

I know very little about Japanese, but Vilaeth always told us that "koibito" meant the feelings were mutual. And even a simple translator tool says that it means mutual - here's the translation of koibito from Google translations:
http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#ja|en|%E6%81%8B%E4%BA%BA

The first three definitions are: lover, sweetheart, paramour (lover) - all mean mutual love

That's the definition I always heard Cloti's use - including Vilaeth and Ryu - before CoLWhite got published.

Ryu

Trouble is, the two people realizing mutual romantic feelings under the stars is completely optional. SE even says it's optional, and has never declared a default or canon outcome for that scene except in your imagination.

And multiple story summaries. And a script of the story. And a small collection of important scenes from the story.

I do not see SE agreeing with your opinion. To be fair, I don't see SE agreeing with my opinion, either.

IMO, SE leaves it up to the player to decide which interpretation the player agrees with. SE says which interpretations are possible, but then the player gets to decide which interpretation they agree with.

YOU accept one version as canon, but it is not canon according to the standards of a great many people outside of TLS.

Do I really need to repeat the point about there being a great many people who don't accept evolution? Spoiler: they're still wrong.

And do I really need to repeat the point that this does NOT mean that you're correct?

Here's a Clerith friend explaining what I just said in different words:

Why do you think we Cleriths focus so much on the outcome of that scene? Cloud having a separate room? Tifa wanting to know if Cloud loves her in COT? Them not showing any signs of intimacy despite claims of them having sex on top of a rock?

The separate room thing has never been substantiated.

The master bedroom shared by Cloud and Tifa has never been substantiated, either.

Yeah, that's totally Cloud's bedroom. Where he keeps all his ... nothing. Not even a drawer for an extra change of clothes.

Actually, there is. See what I have labeled as "cabinet" in the following picture?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsRoom1.png

That pic's lightened, but you can find the original here:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555669.png

At any rate, that thing in the corner that I labeled as "CABINET" looks like it has drawers to me. Then there's an open trunk right in front of it where he could put clothes.

When you stop to think that he was living in Aerith's Church without a bed or change of clothes or shower or kitchen for several months IIRC, then why do you think he'd be so fussy about the furnishings in his room?

Also notice the MIRROR - no need for that in an office. Then all the boxes, probably for him to store his personal stuff. Then you have the bed. Yes, I call it a bed instead of a cot because it's so similar to the bed in Marlene's room in FFVII:

The headboard's a different style, but it looks like a single mattress - just like Cloud's bed. Of course, Marlene has a bedspread, but something tells me that Cloud wouldn't care about that.

Oh, and look at the beds in Marlene and Denzel's room!

Once again, only a single mattress with no boxspring. Just like Cloud's bed. Only difference is that they have a bedspread, but I really don't think Cloud would care about that.

And look, they only have ONE cabinet for the two of them. Not much bigger than the one in Cloud's room. Of course, he also has the trunk and boxes to keep stuff in. Oh, and look! They don't have a nightstand either - just like Cloud.

And we're back to Cloud and Tifa having sex on pointy rocks, are we? Nevermind that screenshot from just a few posts ago that shows them surrounded by fucking grass.

It shows the ROCKS surrounded by fucking grass:

And that photoshop of Tifa kissing Cloud is hilarious, since it never happens. No wonder Cloti's tend to be so full of misinformation.

Anyway - Cloud and Tifa are on ROCKS, not grass. Furthermore, sex between them is a pure assumption. "Without words" does NOT have to mean sex.

For that matter, it seems to me that they confirm feelings at this point without words:

Cloud "............It's almost dawn..."
Tifa "H, huh...?"
(He lifts his head further, just enough so that he can look at her.)
Cloud "Sorry. Did I wake you...? It's almost dawn, Tifa."
(She lifts her head off his shoulder and looks around sleepily.)
Tifa "Umm... G, good morning... Cloud." "Give me a little longer... Just a little bit longer..."
(She rests his head on his shoulder again.)
Tifa "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..."
(He nods)
Cloud "Yeah... okay."
(He lowers his head again.)
Cloud "This is probably the last time we'll have together......"
(The scene fades to black.)

Looks to me like they're confirming their feelings without words right there. Maybe that's all SE was talking about. No kiss, no hug, no sex - just sitting together without words.

Note: thanks to Kaleta for pointing this out!

Repeating Shroudy's dishonest bullshit while giving it your thumbs up makes you just as dishonest.

Then I'm proud, since I think Shroudy's very honest as well as brilliant. So it's an honor to be compared to him. Thank you.

Nope, it isn't enough now that someone has informed me that Shadow doesn't actually appear in the game after the death scene. I was assuming that he was seen in the game. If he doesn't appear in the game, then I don't accept a picture of him in a story summary as evidence that he survives.

What the hell are you even talking about? If the player chooses to have him survive the Floating Continent, he appears again. He can be recruited back onto the team.

Well, according to Gym Leader Devil, the only indication that Shadow comes back is in the story summary. See my post on this page: http://thelifestream.net/forums/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=33841

And here's the text of that post:
====================

And once again, I point out that I'm asking for the same standard, not different standards. If Shadow is shown again later after the death scene, then we have good reason to think that he survived. Something happened which validates the outcome.

FFVI has no sequels, no followup, no nothing aside from the game itself and the Ultimanias. So how is Shadow's canonical survival different from the HW scene's outcome again? Special pleading should not be used in your response, if you bother to respond at all. Tell me seriously, what's the difference?!

I've seen nothing to validate which of the optional HW scenes happened. Everything that happened in FFVII after the HW scene, everything that happened in the novella's, everything that happened in AC/ACC, and everything that happened in DoC is possible regardless of which version of the HW scene a player got.]

So, based on what I said above, unless I am very wrong you must now claim Shadow's death is entirely up to the player's choice as well. Because it has LESS validation than Cloti, being as it does not have an entire compilation to draw upon. Yet you have shown no such issues with his survival being canonized by the Ultimania. Again, sounds like special pleading, asking Cloti (focused on the HA HW scene, as if its the be all end all of Cloti proofz) to be held to different standards. And as for you not seeing it, it is obvious to me at this point that you wouldn't see it if the creators hired skywriters to tell you "Cloud and Tifa are a ROMANTIC couple!"

If Shadow's survival is based entirely on what's presented in the Ultimania, then I was misinformed. I was told that Shadow appeared later on in the game.

====================
So when GLD informed me that we only know that Shadow comes back from what's in the Ultimania's, I changed my mind.

The story summary shows the event where he's recruited back onto the team. It shows him with the team as they confront Kefka for the final battle. The story summary also favors the sequence of events involved with recruiting Relm back onto the team when Shadow has survived the earlier sequence (this changes if Shadow didn't make it).

If Shadow's survival is optional in the game, and whether or not Shadow is recruited back into the team depends on his survival, then NO - I don't see it as canon.

Sorry, I don't consider a story summary to be enough evidence. It needs to happen in the actual game or movie or novella before I believe it.

And I find your need to constantly find evidence outside of the Compilation to prove your point ridiculous. Try using evidence from the Compilation for a change.

You use a retconned scene from the original version of AC (with a spectre that was said to be "nothing with any presence in reality" in the first place) for your claim that Cloud's visiting Aerith's ghost (which was said to have gone back to the Lifestream in the first place), so don't even try going there.

1) Retcons aren't always made to "correct mistakes". For example, Zack originally met Aerith while selling flowers. Later, it was retconned into Zack falling into Aerith's Church like Cloud. That wasn't to "correct a mistake". It was done because SE thought it'd be neat to have Cloud and Zack meet Aerith the same way. Safe & Sound isn't so much of a "retcon" as it is "we need a new and different ending for ACC".

2) From the TLS timeline:
· AC – The Forgotten Capital
She appeared to Cloud from the spiritual world, trying to ease his painful sense of sin and guilt.

If Aerith appeared to Cloud from the spiritual world, then she was in the Lifestream at the time she appeared to him. After all, "the spiritual world" is the Lifestream.

Not to mention that a paragraph later you're using a quote from Nomura in an interview. Pretty sure he isn't part of the Compilation.

At least he worked on FFVII, AC/ACC, and other parts of the Compilation. That's more than I can say for the FFVI Ultimania. <_<

And that an interview with him isn't from a game, movie or novella. Same for Ultimania quotes.

Oh, you've decided I'm right? Then all your Ultimania quotes get thrown out. By the way, my quote about:

Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend). ~CoL White, by Nojima

is from a novella, and "koibito" can mean a mutual love.

Your double standards know no bounds, do they?

Same to you.

Nomura wrote a good part of FFVII as well as AC/ACC.

Care to substantiate that claim? Nomura's only ever been credited with the idea of killing off Aerith (and even then, he wasn't said to have written the scene). Nojima's always been called the writer by the other core creators of FFVII.

Sure:

"When Nomura joined Visual Works on the project, way back in 2003, the CG movie had been originally planned and announced as a 20-minute short. "It consisted of no action sequences and only featured Cloud and Tifa," remembered Nomura. "It was a good piece in itself, but as an entertainment piece or product, 20 minutes is too short and the story wasn't enough." So Nomura came up with a more intricate plot himself, and had scenario writer Kazushige Nojima-- who also worked on FFVII, VIII, and X with Nomura-- flesh out the scenes. "The new story turned out to be approximately an hour and since then we kept adding scenes and episodes. But the 20-minute piece is still the base of what we have now." (Anime Insider's October Issue, 2005)

Therefore, the Divergence is actually listed on the FTOIL page ...

No. It's not. It simply isn't on the page. Stop lying.

... since it gives you the page number where the Divergence is discussed. The Divergence is actually part of the information provided about the scene.

In a different context entirely. On the page in question, it's very specific.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]LMAO. I call this denial.

But the page number is given at the top of the picture, so it is clearly intended as information that should be included - not ignored.

And, as always, you're ignoring that every scene of romantic confession discussed on the page mentions the page number where said scene takes place in the respective games' story summaries. This isn't something exclusive to the FFVII scenes.[/QUOTE]And you're ignorning that FFVII is the ONLY game specified on the FTOIL page to have a divergence.

Depends entirely on your interpretation. I think Cloud declares romance for Aerith several times during the game, and that Cloud's love and devotion for Aerith is more than clear in AC/ACC.

Yeah ... you say Cloud declares his love despite him not saying any such thing, but then you say SE hasn't declared an outcome for the Highwind scene despite them having done that very thing several times.

But he doesn't say any such thing to Tifa, either. The Ultimania's say that he does during the HA HW scene, but we never see it.

If it only happens during the HA HW scene, then it's optional.

Now - I've said that SE hasn't declared an official outcome for the HW scene. By that, I mean that SE has not specified either the HA or the LA version of the scene as canon. Instead, they say it's optional.

IF they were going to canonize one version, they would do it in game or in movie. Saying something only in the Ultimania, and especially if all your evidence is in the JP Ultimania only, then you guys are full of it.

Do you really believe this shit? I don't think you do. It's simply not possible that you could think a direct statement doesn't qualify as a declaration in one instance while a lack of direct statements qualifies as a declaration in another.

I can't believe that you really believe what you keep citing as evidence. I'm beginning to think you're just screwing with us for the fun of it.

Look very carefully:

Tifa is still calling it "your room" after the story referred to it as Cloud's office. That means Tifa considers it "Cloud's room", which means it's not a room that she shares with him.

How can you keep ignoring that there is no possessive particle in the line where Tifa tells Cloud to go drink elsewhere? She does not say "your room." She just tells him to drink in another room.

Why do you keep avoiding my arguments?

That's it for tonight - but before I leave, I see that I have something more to respond to:

Back to Tres

Dear Anastar,

Due to your disavowing the consideration of any material that isn't within a Compilation game, movie or novella, I accept your formal concession of defeat in the LTD.

In the event that you again take up your now tattered banner at a future date, so long as you hold to this policy, it is expected that you will no longer refer to interviews (e.g. anything Nomura has said, including notions of Aerith's consciousness living on in Cloud, as well as past claims that he has no idea if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship between the events of FFVII and AC) or just the parts of Ultimanias that you like to acknowledge (e.g. "love rival" quotes in Tifa's 10th AU profile; that same book whose story summary you said means "jackshit"; and whose story summary for AC/C you readily point to as referring to Aerith's church as Cloud's Promised Land, even though you ignore those parts of the same passage that say Aerith's spirit has returned to the Lifestream flowing around the planet, and those that differentiate between Cloud's friends and the three other people who it identifies as his family).

It is also expected that you will personally deliver your sword. No messengers.

I would also like to say it's been a pleasure. Really would like to.

-Yours,
Tres/Ariadne/Squall/Glenn/teh loser

If anybody should be giving a concession, it's you.

You guys have yet to prove a damn thing. Your quotes are only "unarguable" because you THINK the quotes are "unarguable".

There's many people outside of this forum (and in it) who DO think your "proofs" are arguable. There's also many people outside of this forum who agree with me - not you.

I do not concede, and I enjoyed printing out your email and burning it. Next time, don't bother.

~Anastar, Chantara, Aly

 

[looneymoon]

And do I really need to repeat the point that this does NOT mean that you're correct?

but when there are only two options, the illegitimacy of one option automatically makes the other one automatically correct???? How does that........ not make sense........???????

But it doesn't really matter anyway. The Highwind event is like a forked path that ends up in the same place. Which is Cloud and Tifa raising kids together.

but I guess............. raising children isn't couple-like behaviour anymore I guess................

I do not concede, and I enjoyed printing out your email and burning it. Next time, don't bother.

woah man.
woah.
woah.

I was hoping someone could provide a summary of the argument as to why Ultimanias don't matter? I mean, I agree they are stupid as hell but that's like saying the Appendix at the end of Lord of the Rings doesn't matter...

it takes crazy levels of boredom for me to actually make a post in this thread @_@

 

[Dashell]

Kitase: When I first read Nojima&#8217;s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn&#8217;t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

THANK YOU AERBEAR AND THANK YOU CALI OR WHOEVER ELSE DID THIS! Although this is a point for both girls, and not just Aerith, thank you for FINALLY getting back to me on this.

Actually, she asked for an unambiguous quote stating Cloud romantically loved Aerith or the equivalent. I'll let her judge if it meets her criteria, but from where I sit, it says neither that she can be a romantic interest or that he can love Aerith without ambiguity.

It's close enough to what I wanted. Unfortunately, I no longer wish to have this discussion as it lead me to too much headache.



EDIT

It shows the ROCKS surrounded by fucking grass:

Why does the grass being sexually active keep coming up?




EDIT II

According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.

This isn't accurate, Anastar, actually. Here's a post by him Pre CoLW where he said it can be one sided:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1217&postcount=87

It's basically, if you hear this, people are going to assume that it's mutual and that there's two people involved there (since the word itself is talking about the object of affection, not the person doting the affection). And for Tifa, the only one who really makes any sense is Cloud.

Not to say that's always the case, since emotions are a subjective thing. You can think to yourself, &quot;hey, Billy's my koibito&quot; while Billy might be all &quot;woah, back off woman&quot;. However, we aren't talking about what Tifa thinks herself. Because this was Nomura, talking about a fictional character in the third person.

And I have a few posts from elsewhere where Ryu himself said it could mean "beloved" if you would like to see those. I know you're annoyed with people here and I can understand why, but please try not to make this personal or at LEAST don't drag people into this who aren't even here now. Yes, I'm sure there were Clotis who said "ONLY MUTUAL!" but not all of them did. And Hito was simply not one of them.

As for the word changing meaning, what ever happened to "person who loves"? Or does that not apply here? I seem to remember reading many people trying to argue that and only that for sometime and THAT'S not even a possible definition of the word. However, this doesn't mean EVERYONE did, just some people.

So yes, some people said it could only be mutual, and others said it could only mean person who loves and was two words and all this other stuff. It was a big mess and trying to point out the other side's mistakes isn't the way to go about it. It's in the past, and I think everyone really needs to move on from that.

 

[Theozilla]

Hello, first post here on this site. Just some background info on myself: I never played a single Final Fantasy game ever, but a few weeks ago after watching Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete online, my interest in the Final Fantasy mythos (specifically FFVII) was instigated. As for general media background I am bit of anime and comic nerd (so I know of the perils of potential flame wars from sites like Comic Book Resources and IGN).

Obviously (due to my choice of location of first post) the LTD is one of the most interesting and appealing parts of the Final Fantasy VII story to me. I have extensively researched/learned about Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith from sources including: wikipedia, the Final Fantasy Wiki, FFVII:ACC movie, the SquareEnix site, watching gameplay walkthroughs and cutscenes of FFVII on Youtube, translated creator interviews, Ultimania excerpts, listened to The Lifestream.net's audiobook of On The Way To A Smile: A Case of Tifa production (which really impressed me and is partially why I signed up to these forums), watched Reminiscence of Final Fantasy VII, and read The Lifestream.net's Love Triangle Debate Analysis article (which I found to be really impressive and informative in addition to being very civil).

I will say beforehand I suppose I am a little bit of a Cloti (due to I just find Tifa's character and story to be more compelling than Aerith's and I admit I find Tifa to be more attractive/pretty). As for my take on the LTD itself from what I have read/watched/listened to from what I have concluded is that the canon is that the Cloti's are correct, but the Cleriths are also correct to an extent. Basically I see it as Cloud loves Aerith (or loved since she is deceased), but that he is IN love with Tifa.
(I also have concluded from my research that the canon Highwind scene is the High Affection version and that some form of sexually physical interaction took place (most likely sex) and that post-FFVII Cloud and Tifa share a bed (based on the The Lifestream.net's Love Triangle Debate Analysis article))

 

[Elisa Maza]

^ That's a very honest post, if I ever saw one.

First, welcome here, Theozilla.

Second, I strongly advice playing the game yourself. It's on PSN for a rather low price, if I'm not mistaken. This way, you will form a more solid personal opinion about many things and you will find the extra material (Ultimanias and interviews) as complementary rather than main sources, something that will make you feel more comfortable in your skin for the LTD. Plus, FFVII is far more than an LT. You'll enjoy the game itself and its many aspects, I assure you.

Still, I have to admit that your work on finding the material through walkthroughs and other souces is impressive. Kudos, man.

Third, I agree with you on Tifa having a more compelling story. But, that's for another thread.

And now, a question for you: after watching walkthroughs, reading translated Ultimanias and interviews, how did you come to your conclusion? (Maybe it's not giving direct quotes, but I'd like to see an outsider's POV on this). I mean, what was your train of thought?

... This isn't forbidden, is it?

 

[ClerithRaven]

THANK YOU AERBEAR AND THANK YOU CALI OR WHOEVER ELSE DID THIS! Although this is a point for both girls, and not just Aerith, thank you for FINALLY getting back to me on this.

You got two birds with one stone... I guess?

I do not concede, and I enjoyed printing out your email and burning it. Next time, don't bother.

This made me lol. No offense. But if I received that kind of e-mail, after printing, I'd tear it up before burning it. Double destruction.

 

[Theozilla]

^ That's a very honest post, if I ever saw one.

First, welcome here, Theozilla.

Second, I strongly advice playing the game yourself. It's on PSN for a rather low price, if I'm not mistaken. This way, you will form a more solid personal opinion about many things and you will find the extra material (Ultimanias and interviews) as complementary rather than main sources, something that will make you feel more comfortable in your skin for the LTD. Plus, FFVII is far more than an LT. You'll enjoy the game itself and its many aspects, I assure you.

Ah, I wish I could but unfortunately being in college at the moment I have no access to a PS3 or TV; also the only console I have owned is a Nintendo Wii and a Nintendo DS Lite. I guess that speaks to the strength of FFVII's story/mythos of being able to get me interested in without have ever played it? Of course I was always vaguely aware of the impact that FFVII (specifically Aerith's death) had on gaming since it always gets put on media sites Top 25 or 10 lists related to video games. And I was already familiar with the aesthetic visual of the FFVII character due to having read the Kingdom Hearts manga (since some of them appear in it).
Oh and I entirely understand that FFVII is more than just the LT. I am just a softy for fantasy-sci-fi romances.

Still, I have to admit that your work on finding the material through walkthroughs and other souces is impressive. Kudos, man.

Third, I agree with you on Tifa having a more compelling story. But, that's for another thread.

And now, a question for you: after watching walkthroughs, reading translated Ultimanias and interviews, how did you come to your conclusion? (Maybe it's not giving direct quotes, but I'd like to see an outsider's POV on this). I mean, what was your train of thought?

... This isn't forbidden, is it?

Well, it kinda hard to describe, basically when I originally saw FFVIIAC 4-5 years ago (then non-Complete version) with a friend who was a casual Final Fantasy fan. I was really lost to what the setting was and who characters were then, but the characters and music were badass so I enjoyed the movie. But I could tell from watching the moving (and from my friends brief descriptions of the characters) that their was something more than platonic going on between Cloud and Tifa and Aertih (something was going on with that Zack guy and Aerith since they were always appearing together).

So after reading/watching/listening to the different sources of information and comparing it to other literature/film/animes/shows I have watched/read I was convinced that both Tifa and Aerith were/are in love with Cloud predicament is most similar (based on cross-media comparison) to InuYasha's (another manga/anime character) a guy who loves and/or is in love with two girls and ends up with the one in end (partially due to his choice/relationship and partially to due to other one dying).
And Aerith's death and Cloud's guilt felt really family to other anime/cartoon leads that had multiple love interests and one of them dies, I felt it was obvious there was something romantic between Cloud and Aerith.
And after watching the Highwind scene on Youtube (and reading about that the creators had actually toned it down from a more risqué scene) it remind me of so many anime and cartoon romances, it just screamed "romantic/sexy stuff just went down!" to me.
Also the fact that Cloud and Tifa chose to build a family with Marlene and Denzel and are described as their mother and father seems to lend credence to Cloud falling in love with Tifa.

I hope that answers your question sufficiently?

 

[Celes Chere]

That's the definition I always heard Cloti's use - including Vilaeth and Ryu - before CoLWhite got published.

Okaaay... so when Tifa is called "koibito" as well it means nothing? Who else is she a koibito to, Sephiroth?
And I don't recall koibito meaning mutual, I really stay about of Japanese word debates because I'm not Japanese and I just don't give a fuck, it's a stupid argument on both sides since both sides make such a damn fuss about it.

They don't have a nightstand either - just like Cloud.

But there's a night stand right next to their bed... also how do you know Cloud doesn't want/care about bedspread? Did you ask him? That's all assumption based on opinion based on what you think you see in a photograph. There is no mirror, that was your imagination... there's also no T.V.... sometimes I wonder if someone is trolling in this thread.... O_o

fucking grass

Why yes, they did fuck on the grass. This makes sense.

No wonder Cloti's tend to be so full of misinformation.

*CLOTIS for the love of GOD.
o yais I eat misinformation for breakfast every day because my life revolves around the LTD lolol.

"It consisted of no action sequences and only featured Cloud and Tifa,

Okay, sometimes I see the argument that Tifa was added to FFVII AFTER Aerith. Well then how come when the story of AC/ACC were only meant to show Cloud and Tifa it's no longer romantic?

I do not concede, and I enjoyed printing out your email and burning it. Next time, don't bother.

lol Tres makin' all the ladies crazy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Since Anastar still had my calm, sober post to respond to, I probably shouldn't have replied to her two posts to me from the past couple of days just yet (especially since she seemed to think half of my comments she responded to were from Ryu). Oh well.

I've done it now and I'm going to let it stand, come what may. I regret nothing.

Not the point. When did the issues start? IMO, Cloud and Tifa had issues with each other during the game, too. Wouldn't Nojima be aware of that?

The domestic issues in CoT couldn't be issues during FFVII for the simple fact that the two weren't yet in a domestic setting. Things that haven't happened yet can't be an issue before they've happened.

Of course they can. Once again, the date mechanism makes the feelings mutual between Cloud and whatever partner you pick. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then the affection of that partner increases for Cloud. If Cloud behaves "nicely" to the partner, then Cloud's affection for that partner increases, too. Same thing happens in reverse if Cloud doesn't act nicely to the partner. The partner's affection for Cloud decreases, and Cloud's affection for that partner decreases.

Therefore, if you get the Low Affection version, Tifa has a low affection rating for Cloud and Cloud has a low affection rating for Tifa. Therefore, their feelings are mutual in the Low Affection scene.

You're still applying a gameplay-only mechanic to the set-in-stone narrative, despite repeated official statements that Tifa loves Cloud romantically. Within the actual narrative, this is how she always will feel.

The player trying to change it with a gameplay mechanic will no more change Tifa's feelings than leaving Vincent in the basement of the Shin-Ra Manor will make him not join AVALANCHE. She loves Cloud, and Vincent joined the team. Those things cannot be changed.

Not to mention you're still pointing to a scene that simply does not exist.

And I understand the 10th AU story summary has a picture of the Clerith date scene next to the summary of the date sequence. Does that mean the Clerith date is canon?

Que already cleared this misunderstanding up, but, no, the 10th AU's story summary does not have a picture of any date.

But anybody who's played the game knows that he's talking about his feelings for her as a kid when he says that line. There's nothing saying that those are his feelings for her now, except on an optional basis.

The quote doesn't say "past feelings" or "his feelings when they were children." Just "his feelings for Tifa." That's straightforward.

Shall I look it up for you?

PRECEPT II.--Treat different topics in separate paragraphs, and distinct sentiments in separate sentences.
Source: http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Grammar-of-English-Grammars48.html

Yeah, stop trying it.

You're really trying to argue that the two lines are grouped together separate from the rest of the shit on the page, but have no relation to each other? That those two lines are just randomly floating on the page, disconnected from any cogent message?

Bull. Shit. You don't believe that.

And the name is Aly, not Annie.

There's someone else involved in this discussion I'm used to calling that already. Both for preventing confusion and because I don't want to conflate the two of you in my mind, I won't be calling you what I call her.

Exactly my point. If it's not shown in the HA version, what makes you think it's shown in the LA version?

If you don't require it to be shown in the HA version, and you're relying on the description which says they communicated mutual feelings without words, then why do you require that it be shown in the LA version? Why isn't it enough that we are told that their conversation is apathetic?

If it's enough for the HA version that SE tells us what they said (or demonstrated without words), then it should be enough for the LA version that SE tells us what they said.

Yeah, except the high affection version does show us what we've been told it contains. We see Cloud looking for the words to convey his feelings, come up short, and then Tifa recommend a physical display instead.

You're inventing a scene that does not exist.

Then why does SE say it exists?

Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega

If the conversation is apathetic, then the two of them are indifferent to one another.

Don't ask me to show where this happens in the LA version when SE says it happens. If you don't have to show where it happens in the HA version because SE says it happens, then the same standards should apply to the LA version.

SE didn't say what you're claiming they did. Not only is it absurd to claim that Tifa could be disinterested in Cloud, but you keep referring to this concept of a "disinterested conversation scene" as though it makes any kind of sense.

Fuck's sake, the word you've insisted on labeling "apathetic" ("tanpaku"; 淡白) makes more sense as "candid" or "simple." A conversation can be candid/simple and end short.

Which is another problem with your claims about the low affection version of the scene: you keep claiming that a quote that says the scene ends short somehow indicates that a longer conversation happened after Cloud and Tifa said they were going to sleep.

Well, if you don't have to pay any attention to our quotes, why should I have to pay any attention to your quotes?

I am paying attention to the quote, goddammit. I'm just not examining it in a vacuum like you are, and then applying the vacuum-sealed results of an isolated analysis to everything outside the vacuum.

You're ignoring two other quotes from Nomura that contradict your claim of what he said there.

First
The one Que posted several days ago that was said in May 2004:

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=369931&postcount=1382

More than a year before Advent Children was released, Nomura was asked what the relationship between Cloud and Tifa was -- and responded that the movie shows it.

Do you see the problem with your claim that he has no idea what their relationship is? He'd already said he did know.

Either he was trying to stir shit up in that quote you keep coming back to, or he was saying he didn't personally know what went on in the two years between FFVII and AC/C, but did know what the status of their relationship was after that. In either case, he hasn't said that he doesn't know.

Second
In the Reunion Files, Nomura says that one of Tifa's roles is that of a koibito. Even if you refuse to admit that it's referring to Cloud, given your insistence otherwise that koibito implies mutual feelings, if Tifa's somebody's koibito, Nomura should damn well know what the status of Cloud and Tifa's relationship is.

And for the last goddamn time, it's not my quotes and your quotes. They're all SE's quotes.

And Nomura being one of the writers of the movie isn't important, either:

"When Nomura joined Visual Works on the project, way back in 2003, the CG movie had been originally planned and announced as a 20-minute short. "It consisted of no action sequences and only featured Cloud and Tifa," remembered Nomura. "It was a good piece in itself, but as an entertainment piece or product, 20 minutes is too short and the story wasn't enough." So Nomura came up with a more intricate plot himself, and had scenario writer Kazushige Nojima-- who also worked on FFVII, VIII, and X with Nomura-- flesh out the scenes. "The new story turned out to be approximately an hour and since then we kept adding scenes and episodes. But the 20-minute piece is still the base of what we have now." (Anime Insider's October Issue, 2005)

So Nojima didn't write it by himself. Nomura was involved in the writing, too.

To be accurate, that isn't the same as writing the script (not to mention that Nojima's the one who decided that Cloud and Tifa would be together, and is the one responsible for their characterization), but, yes, I'll grant you that Nomura played a significant role in crafting the plot.





By the way: Why are you still referring to interviews when you've already said you only want to go by what's in games, movies and novellas? Apply an even fucking standard.

According to Cloti's before the publication of CoLWhite, "koibito" always meant lover, sweetheart, boy/girlfriend - mutual attraction. Even your translator Vilaeth said so. Funny how the meaning has conveniently changed once CoLWhite got published.

Yeah, bullshit. Que's already pointed to where hito said "koibito" can be one-sided pre-Case of the Lifestream (Ryu did too).

The meaning was always the same. Your attempt at rewriting history with lies? FUCKING FAILED.

By the way, I don't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock what some invisible Clotis might have said. I didn't say that shit, and they -- whoever the fuck they are, if they even fucking exist -- were fucking wrong.

I know very little about Japanese ...

We know.

Actually, there is. See what I have labeled as "cabinet" in the following picture?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/CloudsRoom1.png

That pic's lightened, but you can find the original here:

http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/ACCScreens1/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-2555669.png

At any rate, that thing in the corner that I labeled as "CABINET" looks like it has drawers to me. Then there's an open trunk right in front of it where he could put clothes.

Annie, your "cabinet" is a box. One not even as tall as the desk. And that "trunk" isn't even as thick as the motorcycle tire laying beside it.

When you stop to think that he was living in Aerith's Church without a bed or change of clothes or shower or kitchen for several months IIRC, then why do you think he'd be so fussy about the furnishings in his room?

'Cause he's been demonstrated to enjoy the finer things in life (his motorcycle, his clothes, his jewelry, his weapons, etc.), and it doesn't make any kind of sense for his bedroom to be any exception to the thorough attention he gives everything else in his life.

As for how long he was at the church, I don't think that's ever really been specified.

Also notice the MIRROR - no need for that in an office.

I'm really not seeing a mirror. And, yeah, actually, I've seen mirrors in lots of offices.

Then all the boxes, probably for him to store his personal stuff.

Instead of business supplies?

Oh, and look at the beds in Marlene and Denzel's room!

Once again, only a single mattress with no boxspring. Just like Cloud's bed. Only difference is that they have a bedspread, but I really don't think Cloud would care about that.

And look, they only have ONE cabinet for the two of them. Not much bigger than the one in Cloud's room. Of course, he also has the trunk and boxes to keep stuff in. Oh, and look! They don't have a nightstand either - just like Cloud.

There's a nightstand right there between the two kids' beds. And that actual cabinet is way bigger than the thing in the office you're calling a cabinet.

It shows the ROCKS surrounded by fucking grass:

So we both see the grass then. Awesome. We're making progress.

And that photoshop of Tifa kissing Cloud is hilarious, since it never happens. No wonder Cloti's tend to be so full of misinformation.

You keep seeing things that aren't there. That's not a Photoshop -- that's just a GIF of something that actually happens in the game. Which isn't Tifa kissing Cloud; it's her laying her head on his shoulder.

Anyway - Cloud and Tifa are on ROCKS, not grass.

They're incapable of moving five feet to a patch of grass?

Furthermore, sex between them is a pure assumption. "Without words" does NOT have to mean sex.

Nojima described Tifa's "without words" line as risque. So, you're wrong.

For that matter, it seems to me that they confirm feelings at this point without words:

Cloud "............It's almost dawn..."
Tifa "H, huh...?"
(He lifts his head further, just enough so that he can look at her.)
Cloud "Sorry. Did I wake you...? It's almost dawn, Tifa."
(She lifts her head off his shoulder and looks around sleepily.)
Tifa "Umm... G, good morning... Cloud." "Give me a little longer... Just a little bit longer..."
(She rests his head on his shoulder again.)
Tifa "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..."
(He nods)
Cloud "Yeah... okay."
(He lowers his head again.)
Cloud "This is probably the last time we'll have together......"
(The scene fades to black.)

Looks to me like they're confirming their feelings without words right there. Maybe that's all SE was talking about. No kiss, no hug, no sex - just sitting together without words.

And what the fuck does that confirm? That they're both fucking sleepy? Give me a goddamn break. I'm so sick of your dishonesty. =|

1) Retcons aren't always made to "correct mistakes". For example, Zack originally met Aerith while selling flowers. Later, it was retconned into Zack falling into Aerith's Church like Cloud. That wasn't to "correct a mistake". It was done because SE thought it'd be neat to have Cloud and Zack meet Aerith the same way. Safe & Sound isn't so much of a "retcon" as it is "we need a new and different ending for ACC".

"New and different" = retcon. Holy Jesus (clarification: not Aerith).

Where are you getting this "correct a mistake" crap? I never said that.

Sephiroth kicking Cloud through that little rubble wall on the top of the Shin-Ra building instead of Cloud coming to a stop against it wasn't correcting a mistake either, but it is a retcon. Advent Children Complete is full of retcons.

2) From the TLS timeline:
· AC – The Forgotten Capital
She appeared to Cloud from the spiritual world, trying to ease his painful sense of sin and guilt.

If Aerith appeared to Cloud from the spiritual world, then she was in the Lifestream at the time she appeared to him. After all, "the spiritual world" is the Lifestream.

What are you even trying to argue here? And did you even notice that you just abandoned your claim that Aerith's spirit is inside Cloud?

Oh, you've decided I'm right? Then all your Ultimania quotes get thrown out.

Uh, no. I'm pointing out that you're a hypocrite who applies double/uneven standards, and whose goal posts shift like a kid with Tourette's.

And you're ignorning that FFVII is the ONLY game specified on the FTOIL page to have a divergence.

Only it isn't. You're still lying.

Why do you keep avoiding my arguments?

I directly responded to what you said for fuck's sake.

Your double standards know no bounds, do they?

Same to you.

Okay, you know what? Fuck you.

Mako, Aaron, moderate me. I don't give a FUCK. This miserable little cunt went to a place she should goddamn well know by now not to fucking go. Fuck her and her little fantasy world right up the ass with a parasol.

She's done nothing but lie and attack other people's credibility while ignoring many things people have said, twisting others, and just generally being a dishonest little bitch for the past 80 pages of this catastrofuck of a discussion. And now she wants to go and fucking say that I am applying double standards?

Fuck her. FUCK HER.

That's it for tonight - but before I leave, I see that I have something more to respond to:

...

I do not concede, and I enjoyed printing out your email and burning it.

Your ink, your paper, and your dime, bitch.

 

[Dashell]

Alright, time to post some HQ pics here.

Spoiler: Cloud's office

Spoiler: The kids room

Spoiler: other side of the kid's room

That is all. It should be very clear what is and isn't in those rooms now.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

**hugs tres** I love you.

Then all the boxes, probably for him to store his personal stuff.

Or, y'know...deliveries...

ps. I'm out of this thread for awhile, not by moderation, but by personal choice. The emote post was done in jest, and the 'tone' was supposed to be funny. Not sarcastic and not malicious, but whatever. I've certainly made other posts that skirt past the rules and deserved a warning, so meh, wrong post, right person? Whatever. Anyway, a reminder * If you flame someone, you will be banned. If you troll, you will be banned. If you try and use past events as a weapon against people, you will be banned. Off topic bullshit isn't acceptable either, save the frivolous banter for the clubs please...* bolding for certain parties to see.

**hugs thread**

 

[ClerithRaven]

[AC] Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith&#8217;s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.

Can I ask if this quote can be taken to mean that Cloud could have lived in another place even before he lived in Aerith's church?

As for him living there, there was this one quote...

Tifa, who collapsed at the slum&#8217;s church where the memory of Aerith still lingered.

Couldn't Cloud have lived there because he wanted to be close to Aerith's memory/spirit which still lingered there?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Can I ask if this quote can be taken to mean that Cloud could have lived in another place even before he lived in Aerith's church?

As for him living there, there was this one quote...

No. It is rather direct to say Cloud lived with Tifa before residing in the church.

Couldn't Cloud have lived there because he wanted to be close to Aerith's memory/spirit which still lingered there?

It's possible, but even if he did, you are required to validate the supposition with evidence. You also kind of need to show that he's doing it for romantic rather than penitent reasons.

Incidentally, there is a quote saying THAT SAME QUOTE SAYS Cloud returned to the church to rescue Tifa.
"Tifa, who collapsed at the slum&#8217;s church where the memory of Aerith still lingered. Cloud, who had came to save her, always seems to be a tempo late . . . . . ."

Anastar, you got no less than you deserve, and for the record, I, as well, recognized the beloved usage of Koibito long before COLW came out, even when the Cleriths of the time were arguing 'one who loves' 'it has no meaning when written in kanji' and other such absurd nonsense.
Rena, I'll get to you in a bit, but the points have largely been responded to.

 

[Rena]

REVENGE!!! Her motivation is BLOODY VENGEANCE against Shinra. This is not a mystery, she pretty well tells us this is why she got into AVALANCHE in the first place.

Fair point, until Cloud came into the picture and she forgot big part of herself.

The fact that it is incorrect makes it incorrect.

And I bet you’ve got thousands of “facts” to prove it incorrect.

I've done this personally, making shit worse while trying to prevent people from having to deal with said shit. And its not at all uncommon in fiction. Off hand, Spider-man seems a good example. Lots of folks real and imaginary alike screw things up by trying to leave their loved ones out of whatever is wrong. Its almost always portrayed as a mistake, but people MAKE those, ya know?

Yes, I agree we all make mistakes and most of us have done things like that. But don’t say Cloud and Tifa rock the world of communication and sharing ‘cause they clearly don’t and that’s what hurts about this pairing.

They don't. They EXPLAIN why he was doing things the way he did. You're not supposed to be on his side about his douchey running away behavior, you're supposed to cheer when Tifa lays into him about how big of a fatalistic asshat he's being.

I think we both agree he was a douche and that’s part of what I came up with.

Can't argue with your position exactly, but it seems rather silly to contradict what they said because it "seems suspicious". Either way, it stands that they have told us Tifa was specifically intended to be NOT CLINGY, ya know?

Why clear up something that supposedly was never there since the beginning?

I do not think you know what a masochist actually is, nor do you use masochistic at all correctly.

This is what I love about some people here! Keep saying it’s incorrect, won’t make it incorrect and you do not have facts to prove this.

 

[ClerithRaven]

No. It is rather direct to say Cloud lived with Tifa before residing in the church.

Uhm. I wasn't questioning that.
I was just confirming if Cloud immediately went to live in Aerith's Church after he left 7th Heaven.

It's possible, but even if he did, you are required to validate the supposition with evidence. You also kind of need to show that he's doing it for romantic rather than penitent reasons.

I wasn't going to argue it for romance. I was just asking a question for clarification. Though I might consider it anyway. Give me a moment.

Incidentally, there is a quote saying THAT SAME QUOTE SAYS Cloud returned to the church to rescue Tifa.
"Cloud, who had came to save her, always seems to be a tempo late . . . . . ."

I am not blind, Ryu. I saw that. :p
Anyway, this is irrelevant to my question. Yes it is part of the quote, but how does it connect with Cloud living there because Aerith's memory lingers in that place?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Fair point, until Cloud came into the picture and she forgot big part of herself.

Did she? She's still running her own business after he comes back. Yes, Cloud is a big part of her life, but I don't think Tifa lost herself in the deal.

And I bet you’ve got thousands of “facts” to prove it incorrect.

The definition of Masochism, for a start.

Yes, I agree we all make mistakes and most of us have done things like that. But don’t say Cloud and Tifa rock the world of communication and sharing ‘cause they clearly don’t and that’s what hurts about this pairing.

Yeah, but that'd hurt about any pairing they'd be in. They work through it.

I think we both agree he was a douche and that’s part of what I came up with.

Dumbass. Not douche. Douchery- for me anyways- implies malice or self centeredness, rather than well intentioned stupidity.
My grandfather, when he was dying, lied his ass off about how well he felt to us. He knew he was dying. We knew he was dying. But he didn't want us to worry about him. This had the side effect of making my mother worry about him all the time since she thought his condition was so much worse than it was for most of the end of his life.
RavenRoth has a very excellent response for this as well.

Why clear up something that supposedly was never there since the beginning?

Because they were introducing a new element which can easily be associated with clinginess and were cognizant of wanting not to cross theline.

This is what I love about some people here! Keep saying it’s incorrect, won’t make it incorrect and you do not have facts to prove this.

mas·och·ist  [mas-uh-kist] Show IPA
noun
1. Psychiatry. a person who has masochism, the condition in which sexual or other gratification depends on one's suffering physical pain or humiliation.
2. a person who is gratified by pain, degradation, etc., that is self-imposed or imposed by others.
3. a person who finds pleasure in self-denial, submissiveness, etc.

Masochist. For the record.

Uhm. I wasn't questioning that.
I was just confirming if Cloud immediately went to live in Aerith's Church after he left 7th Heaven.

As I said, it's referring to where Cloud and Tifa lived together as being where Cloud lived before residing in the church. So he probably didn't live elsewhere.

I wasn't going to argue it for romance. I was just asking a question for clarification. Though I might consider it anyway. Give me a moment.

I just wanted to stress that the two claims are distinct and with distinct evidence requirements.

I am not blind, Ryu. I saw that. :p

Look, I'm just trying to make sure that we have the full quotes and are aware of them, since many times in this very thread, portions of quotes have gone missing or been ignored. That is quote-mining.

Anyway, this is irrelevant to my question. Yes it is part of the quote, but how does it connect with Cloud living there because Aerith's memory lingers in that place?

Well, the quote itself doesn't state that's why Cloud went there. It's a reasonable inference, certaintly- go to the place where a spirit is said to dwell to be granted intervention by that ghost- but Cloud could also simply be using the church as a place of penance because it's a church.

 

[Marle]

I am not blind, Ryu. I saw that. :p
Anyway, this is irrelevant to my question. Yes it is part of the quote, but how does it connect with Cloud living there because Aerith's memory lingers in that place?

I always believed Cloud went to the church because it gives him a sense of calm. But even then, he still looked completely and utterly miserable while he was there, anyways. So Aerith's memory isn't making anything better for him. :T

If anything, Cloud was only ever truly happy when he was with his family before he became guilt ridden because of this newly found happiness.

 

[ClerithRaven]

As I said, it's referring to where Cloud and Tifa lived together as being where Cloud lived before residing in the church. So he probably didn't live elsewhere.

Roger that.

I just wanted to stress that the two claims are distinct and with distinct evidence requirements.

I know.

Look, I'm just trying to make sure that we have the full quotes and are aware of them, since many times in this very thread, portions of quotes have gone missing or been ignored. That is quote-mining.

Bah, I thought quote-mining meant digging up LOTS of quotes and putting it all in ONE SINGLE POST.

Uhm, so... Did I do that? Take out portions of a quote to imply another meaning that what the quote really says?

Well, the quote itself doesn't state that's why Cloud went there. It's a reasonable inference, certaintly- go to the place where a spirit is said to dwell to be granted intervention by that ghost- but Cloud could also simply be using the church as a place of penance because it's a church.

Yes, Goddess.

EDIT:

I always believed Cloud went to the church because it gives him a sense of calm. But even then, he still looked completely and utterly miserable while he was there, anyways. So Aerith's memory isn't making anything better for him. :T

Maybe he was bothered by the fact that it was just a memory. He might be missing her. And it's frustrating that he can't see or touch her anymore. But then again, it's opinion until proven otherwise.

If anything, Cloud was only ever truly happy when he was with his family before he became guilt ridden because of this newly found happiness.

So... are you saying that the only time Cloud was happy was with Tifa, Marlene and Denzel? And this did not happen at other times?