The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Master Bates]

Are you sure she isn't Tana?

Good Mako isn't here or I don't know what he'd have done to her. Or is he?

 

[Dashell]

Well he said "she has put a meticulous amount of effort into doing so" as in planned quite a bit and I don't think Tana has that kind of intelligence

EDIT
and so we don't all get yelled at by Mako, I'll post something on topic.

Anastar you asked what makes Cloud Tifa's koibito... well, I posted it before but

Spoiler: this

To begin the story of Cloti, we'll start in the lifestream event. It is in that moment when Tifa literally walks through Cloud's mind and sees the window to his past and true self. Many of Cloud's old memories and actions revolve around Tifa herself. In fact, the three most important memories that end up bringing Cloud back together are about himself and Tifa.

(SOURCE 10th AU: "The memory of 5 years ago, the promise at the water tower, Cloud's motive to decide to become a SOLDIER. Together with Tifa, Cloud grasps the truth of himself and now faces the reality of 5 years ago. During the tragedy of Nibelheim, Cloud defeated Sephiroth as a mere soldier, keeping his promise to Tifa. At last, the two who discovered the truth meet again with true significance, and return to reality where their friends await.")

The first memory is that Cloud would get into fights constantly because he was angry at himself for not being able to protect Tifa from falling from Mt Nibel. The second memory is the night Cloud made the Promise to Tifa to come to help her if she ever needed it. This was significant to Cloud because Tifa had been called out to the water tower before by many other boys, but always turned them down. It was at this moment that Tifa began to take interest in Cloud.

(SOURCE 10th AU page 12: "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."

SOURCE 10th AU page 24: "In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire.

However when the promise was exchanged, at that moment, Cloud became a special existence to her, which later, he now holds a huge position (in Tifa's life).")

Cloud also had feelings for Tifa, but because he was young, they hadn't the time grow yet. This is IMO, why they were called "dim" or "slight" feelings, because his feelings changed to that of love overtime as he grew.

(SOURCE 10th AU page 12 "Before leaving the village, he boldly called to Tifa, a girl he liked romantically, and declared he would become a SOLDIER."

SOURCE Crisis Core Ultimania: Before leaving Nibelheim, Cloud declared that “I’ll be a SOLDIER” to a village girl, Tifa, whom he had slight feelings for, and made a promise to protect her. )

The promise also means much to Cloud, for it is forever etched in his mind/memory.

(SOURCE Cloud's 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile. "A Promise to Tifa, Etched in his Memory."

When Cloud left the village dreaming of being a SOLDIER, he swore to Tifa that he would come running to her rescue if she was in trouble. While it was Tifa who strong-armed him into making the promise, it seems that the idea that he must keep this vow was forever in Cloud’s mind.")

Cloud also decided to join SOLDIER because he wanted someone to notice him, and the one person he singles out, is once again, Tifa.

(SOURCE FFVII "Cloud: If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......").

The third and final memory is of when Cloud defeated Sephiroth and came to Tifa's rescue even though he was a tad late. All of these memories show just how important Tifa is to Cloud. Even the young Cloud says to Tifa that she should tell the adult Cloud about how she was looking for information about him in the newspaper when he left. The younger Cloud knows the adult Cloud cares about Tifa a great deal and knows this will make him happy because his feeling have changed from slight feelings to that of love.

(SOURCE: FFVII:
Tifa "I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an
article about you."

*Young Cloud looks down.*

"Thanks, Tifa."
"Tell him what you told me, later. He'll probably be so happy."

*Tifa nods* )

It is then Tifa realizes just how important she is to Cloud and that those feelings he had when he was a kid have grown to love, and we know she still carries her feelings for him from when she was younger.

(SOURCE Ultimania Omega page 25: Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless.

SOURCE UO Page 27: Deep inside Cloud's heart, feelings were hidden that no one knew about. Even though there were important memories to himself, many of them were forgotten. In the process of looking for the real Cloud, Tifa learns a lesson about the complexity of the human heart, and the feelings are earnestly transmitted.)


THIS is what Tifa and Cloud talked about under the Highwind. When they were left alone (left alone as in no one watched them even if they did have sex... )

(SOURCE: U20: As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.")

they realized how important they were to one another. They realized they loved one another and wanted to be by each other's side. They also related their feelings to each other without using words, which would indicate some form of romancing going on.

(SOURCE(s): "FFVIIUO, pg. 15: Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

"FFVIIUO, pg. 27: If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."

"FFVIIUO, pg. 198: When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

"CCU, pg. 33: She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."

"FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition: Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary: And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match." )

"U20 Scenario, pg. 394 VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match

"U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232: Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."

"FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game"

"U20 Scenario, pg. 199: Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book)

Later on, on the Highwind, Cloud and Tifa get teased momentarily. None of the friends actually saw what happened, but Tifa is very embarrassed obviously concerned about what they might have seen, or heard. This happens even if you get the low affection scene, so it implies that something happened, even if it was just talking. If it was just feelings of friendship or working something out, Tifa is embarrassed for no reason at all. Cloud puts his hand behind his head as he's also embarrassed but not as much as Tifa. That moment is quickly forgotten as the story moves on.

After the fight with Sephiroth, Cloud is lead back to his consciousness by Aerith, and is awakened just in time to save Tifa as she nearly falls to her death. Having seen Aerith's hand moments ago, Cloud speaks about the promised land, saying that he thinks he can find his fallen friend there. He isn't sure if he's going to live, but knows that even if he doesn't, his friend will be waiting for him. Tifa agrees with Cloud and expresses an interest to see her fallen comrade as well.

(SOURCE Ultimania Omega Tifa's Profile: After the dispute with Sephiroth is settled, the two of them, Tifa and Cloud, plot their escape from the hole of the crumbling cave's deepest depths. [He?] thinks he understands the Promised Land's meaning now and therefore thinks he can meet [her there...]

She smiles toward Cloud when he says this, "Yeah let's go meet [her]." she recites. The companion they go to meet is naturally Aerith.

At the start of CoT, Cloud smiles as Tifa stands by his side. Cloud expresses, once again, that he wishes for forgiveness for his sins. He believes starting a new life and living it the best he can will lead him to his salvation. And with a smile, he tells Tifa he believe he can do this now, and not fail like he has in the past, because he has her with him and he is very content with this.

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”


“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.)

When Case of Tifa progresses, Cloud and Barret build 7th Heaven as their home, and Barret decides at one point to leave.

(SOURCE: Case of Barret: "After helping Tifa and Cloud build their home, Barret entrusted his best friend Dyne's orphaned daughter Marlene to the two of them and embarked on a journey.")

He leaves Marlene and Tifa and Cloud's care and calls them a family.

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:
"Don't worry, I'll be a good kid to them!"
When Marlene said that, Cloud and Tifa exchanged glances. To us?
"I'll take good care of Tifa and Cloud!"
Looking back, Barret said with a shout:
"You be strong!" His voice was cracking. "Work together as a family and keep at it, ya hear?!"


Cloud begins to live like he said he would, and he's very happy with his new life. He even starts his own business and begins a delivery service. It is when this happens that things begin to change. Cloud starts to become distant and Tifa and Marlene notice this. This is because of the feelings of guilt he begins to feel.

(SOURCE: U10 Tifa's Profile: Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him."

He had to deliver flowers to the Forgotten City which reminded him of how badly he failed Aerith. He begins to feel that because he could not protect his friends and those important to him, that he doesn't deserve this wonderful family he has. He starts to feel worthless and grows more and more distant as time goes on.


(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary: "The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…"

Nomura in Distance: "The happier Cloud is, the more lonely he becomes."

SOURCE: Reunion Files: Tifa fought alongside Cloud in a battle two years ago. She has a long history of memories with him that are connected to their future, but Cloud eventually distances himself from Tifa.)

Because he grows so distant, Tifa becomes concerned and starts to wonder if their love for one another is enough to get through the crisis they are dealing with. She even becomes angry with Cloud because of his behavior toward her and Marlene and snaps at him a time or two. They are a couple in peril and many couples go through similar things like this. She asks Cloud one night if he loves her and he awakens perplexed for a moment. Afraid of the answer, she changes the question to ask if he loves Marlene to which he says, "Yes I just don't know how to approach her sometimes." Tifa then asks if they'll be okay, but doesn't get a response.

At some point during all this, Cloud begins visiting Aerith's church searching for salvation. One day when he's there he runs across Denzel, a young boy with Geostigma. He decides to bring Denzel back to join his family and Tifa agrees. They start to raise Denzel along with Marlene and their family life starts to get back to normal.

(SOURCE Case of Tifa: Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.)

One night Cloud tells Tifa that he feels Aerith brought Denzel to him and confesses to visiting the church. Tifa, not wanting Cloud to suffer alone, tells him that she'll go with him next time, and reaffirms his belief about Denzel, but adds that she believes Aerith brought Denzel to their home and family. Cloud smiles at hearing this, knowing that he has people who care about him and want to help. Tifa and his family are always with him and this makes him happy.

Shortly afterwards, Cloud begins searching for a cure for Denzel to redeem himself for his past sins;

(SOURCE: Case of Tifa:

“I can’t really explain it well…” Cloud warned before starting to talk. “The problem isn’t resolved. Well, I never tried resolving it for a long time, I think. You can’t retrieve lost lives.”

Tifa nodded silently.

“But maybe we can save the lives who are in a crisis just now. Maybe even I can do it.”

“You mean Denzel?”

“Yeah.&#8221

however one day when he's out and about, he comes in contact with the disease. He feels that his one shot at redemption is completely blown and once again, he feels worthless. He thinks he doesn't deserve the friends and family he has, so he runs away to hide himself from his shame, and begins to live in Aerith's church possibly looking for another chance for salvation.

(SOURCE(s) FFVII 10th Anniversary Cloud's Profile: "Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.")

AC Prologue: "Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful living he's never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away."

"Nomura: Even though he found peace, Cloud has lost a lot of people dear to him up until this point. Not only that, but looking at Cloud's history, this is the first time he's experienced a 'peaceful' environment in the true sense of the word. Cloud is a character who will always keep thinking, regardless of what's going on around him."

Shonen Gangan interview: "-- So, why has Cloud separated himself from his friends?

Nomura: Cloud is scared that the peace he has now might shatter, so he is living on his own.

-- Why?

Nomura: In the past he meet Zack, his best friend, and Aerith, someone who was important to him, but he lost them, so wonders if his present peace will also shatter one day... Since something might happen while he's around, he left everyone behind and is doing delivery work on his own.

-- But he still has a mobile phone, and he doesn't seem to have rejected other people outright.

Nomura: Yeah. Delivery work itself is something which connects people together. While he appears to be rejecting other people, in actual face he feels lonely deep down. That's why he has his mobile phone."

As FFVII AC goes on, Aerith is finally able to speak to Cloud to tell him to move on and that she never blamed him for anything. Thanks to Aerith, Marlene and Tifa, Cloud is able to fight again, and rises up to defeat Sephiroth once again. He wakes up in the church, surrounded by his loved ones, finally free of his guilt. This is truly his promised land. A place where he can live among his friends, and family without guilt or insecurities. As Aerith leaves along with Zack, Cloud smiles and think to himself that he isn't alone. He isn't alone because he has his family and he knows they will be there for him and he doesn't have to suffer alone and that his family and friends will always be there for him.

(SOURCE: 10th AU, ACC Playback:

The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. He realizes that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet

 

[EurAsianGirl]

You're too nice, Tres. I would've just given her an immediate infraction for trolling. I don't care how long it's been since she last posted. She's been warned for this shit several times before.

Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.

You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)

 

[Zealkin]

You have to admit it was pretty funny right

Nope.

 

[Master Bates]

Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.

You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)

No, it's not funny. I won't ask you to stop posting, but rather ask you to stop that attitude. Just please... don't do it.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.

You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)

I don't understand.

 

[Dashell]

Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.

You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)

No dude, don't even. you were serious, just like every other post that you made. you're just saying that now because of the backlash you received. Try being honest next time.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.

You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)

No one's going to believe that, sry.

If there weren't a no macros rule in the LTD, this would be a perfect time for the "What trolls want you to think" comic. If you're curious, google it and pretend I stuck it here.

 

[Sylvie]

EurAsianGirl is like a four-wheeled wagon. Then, suddenly, the front two wheels snapped off their axles and rolled into the brush. The wagon makes a loud wooden noise and soars across a path of shit like a nimbus of sorts. But the creaking, snapping sound sticks to the ears. Rub the honey in and make it sweet.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Alright, alright I'll stop geez I'm sorry. But just to let you guys know, since it seems like almost everybody is being clueless right now, that post I just made was a complete joke and was just supposed to parody the absurdness of this whole LTD.

You have to admit it was pretty funny right (Not to mention I've actually met Cleriths with that kind of attitude >.> This time I just pretended to apply it to Clotis.)

but yeah lets get back to actually arguing and not getting our minds boggled at the fact that EAG wakes up in the morning and remembers to breathe for all her hatred of pairings she don't ship
edit: and feel free to smack and infraction on me for that because we were all thinking it

 

[Makoeyes987]

I seem to remember making an announcement about a page ago about there being no macros in this thread. It's in the rules of the OP.

Do not let one member's disruption cause you to ignore the rules of this thread. Any further rule offenses will result in infractions from this point on. Thank you.

 

[Ryushikaze]

(Sorry I missed this, Tres)

I'm sorry about the date. I didn't know.

That's what we're here for. To correct misconceptions and incorrect information.

He says right there that Aerith's comrades have their own feelings and love for her. Cloud is also a comrade, so he must also have his own feelings and love for her as well that's separate from his guilt.

Yes, in the same manner as the love and feelings of Tifa, Red, and Cid. Or random player 2873

Either Nomura had a brain fart in the same breath or maybe he really didn't mean to imply guilt?

No, he did. He very much meant to imply guilt. The trailer had Cloud walking into the church. The scene in the church when he does is where he finds Tifa, passes out from a Geostigma attack, and his guiltwolf appears.

The tricky part, for me at least, is they've never talked about this. The story itself glosses over it, but like I said, if the feelings were canonically romantic, I should think it would have been brought up - especially in CoT, because that novella is about her relationship with him. To actually address these feelings with him in a scene like that and never mention it again is a little strange - it would be a big leap for both of their characters, but it's ignored by them themselves. I do think, in that respect, SE has stayed with a neutral presentation.

It's not ignored. It's not explicitly recalled, but Cloud's own positive attitude and wanting Tifa in 'a different way than before' speak to there being something different in their dynamic than previously, something that does not fit well with the apathetic ;A version.

"It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don't have to go on alone."
This is from the morning after the LA version. (Here)

It's from both.

*GLD and Ryu, I'll respond to you guys soon, I just need more time, sorry.

As long as your responses are comprehensive and honest, take your time.

Zealkin

From now on, I think I'm just going to answer people who don't need to fling accusations at me and who actually debate - like Zealkin. Sorry I didn't answer you before this, Zealkin:

Oh please, you didn't answer me even when I wasn't flinging accusations.
And Annie, I ALWAYS debate. That you would imply I don't is a grievous insult. You know, of the sort that made you shy away from responding to people? The kind you don't mind saying about other people?

Where is there a quote saying that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally? Where is there a quote saying that the HA version of the HW scene is canon?

Where's a quote saying that your interpretation of the LA scene is even remotely true?

What SE tells us about the LA HW scene is that you get the LA version version if Tifa's affection rating for Cloud is low. In order for Tifa's affection rating for Cloud to be low, then Cloud has to act in ways that give negative values to Tifa's affection rating. If Cloud is acting in that way, then his affection for Tifa is low. That means their affection values match in the LA scene.

You keep asserting this. It continues to be baseless and false, given that the Tifa date and the HAHW scene can both be gotten in a single playthrough.

Now, what SE says about the LA HW scene is that it's apathetic and ends short.

After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating for Cloud. When the affection rating is low, the conversation in the scene where they spend the night will be apathetic and ends quickly. ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega

Now, I was asked to give a reason that the scene is apathetic and ends short. I said it could easily be that Cloud's still in love with Aerith, and therefore not in love with Tifa. Tifa may not be interested in a relationship with Cloud because she knows he's still in love with Aerith.

No, you INVENTED a reason for why it's Apathetic and Ends short. One based on nothing.

Same with the HA version. There is no conversation about the two of them being in love during the HA HW scene. We see no confirmation about Cloud and Tifa loving one another in the HA HW scene. It was purely up to speculation until the FTOIL page put a pic of the HW scene under a title talking about Love Between Heroes. And even then, the FTOIL page specified that the scene is optional and that there are two versions by providing a link to a page where that's discussed in detail.

No, Anastar, that is not where it's done, and you now misrepresent two pages in your quest to deny the canon.

Koibito can mean "beloved", which means it can be one-way. In that case, it was confirmed in Case of Denzel that Johnny is in love with Tifa:

Johnny ran a cafe in the main street. It was a humble establishment in a patch of open ground with a stall, some tables and a few chairs where he could do some simple cooking. The name of the shop was called Johnny's Heaven. It was a name that was similar to the diner that once existed in the slums of the Seventh Sector. That diner's name was "Seventh Heaven" which had a hostess that Johnny fell in love with. That girl's name was Tifa. ~Case of Denzel

So, you CAN identify who Tifa is beloved by... if it's not Cloud.
Now, tell me, Anastar, why Square Enix would mention Johnny- who never appears in Advent Children at all, as loving Tifa in the movie?
Why would they mention HIM over the man who belongs with her, started a family with her, and has a future with her?
Why would they do that?

Now, if you look at the pages in the Reunion Files where it's supposedly talking about Cloud being in love with Tifa, there's absolutely nothing talking about romance between the two of them. On page 18, it says that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud:

Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a big kid himself in some respects. ~Reunion Files, page 18

That says nothing about romance - it's talking about a maternal bond between Cloud and Tifa. On page 19, it says that she's a mother, sweetheart, and close ally in battle. Well, on the facing page, it said that Tifa feels a maternal bond to Cloud, so that accounts for Tifa being a mother - but where's there reference to Cloud being a sweetheart? There's not even a picture of Cloud on either of those pages.

The quote from p18 is a mistranslation. The Kanji- and you don't even have to read the language to visually confirm this- is exactly the same when discussing taking care of the kids and also of Cloud. It's not a Maternal bond. It's taking care of.
Prime source ignorance go go!
Also, Annie, there's no picture of Johnny in the RF either. How could it POSSIBLY be him?

Page 19 goes on to say:

Tifa's been with Cloud a large part of her life at this point ~page 19, the Reunion Files

Which isn't even true - they barely knew one another as kids in Nibelheim, which Tifa says during the Lifestream event.

Annie, please quote for me, 'Barely knew' from the script of FF7. You will find it is not found in the lifestream sequence at all.

They were with one another during FFVII, but that only lasted a few months. She was with Cloud, Barret, and Marlene after FFVII while they were homeless and while they were building the new Seventh Heaven. Then they moved into the new Seventh Heaven, and Cloud leaves shortly afterwards. As I've had others say to me about the FFVII commercial - if one part isn't accurate, then why should we believe anything else?

Their entire childhoods, and for two years now. Tifa is 22 now. That's 15 years of them being a part of each other's lives, regardless of how close they were or not.

Then page 19 goes on to say:

... but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of his heart, and this makes her uneasy. ~page 19, the Reunion Files

See anything confirming romance? I don't.

Well of course not. You're refusing to look. Like on p18, where it says She has a long history of memories [with Cloud] that are connected to their future.
Explicitly shared future.

Page 20 goes on to say:

... she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director Nomura said that he wanted me to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. ~page 20, Reunion Files

Nothing about romance there. Instead, it sounds to me like the woman in the LA version of the HW scene who's hoping that Cloud will someday get over Aerith.[/quote]

And once again, you reveal your 'There's no official version' argument to be a facade for your real argument. Drive that wedge.
Once again, to be left behind by a man, you have to have been with that man.

Later on page 20:
Tifa's a strong woman. She doesn't like what Cloud is doing, but instead of lecturing him about every little thing, she's been waiting for him to realize for himself what his actions are doing. ~page 20, Reunion Files

Again, no indication of romance. So just what is koibito on page 19 referring to?

To Cloud. The man she belongs with, has a future with, started a family with.

Page 21 talks about how Tifa has a huge burden herself, and says that the film doesn't give a clear look at what's going on inside of Tifa's head. It says there's one scene where she tells Cloud what's going on from her heart. Later, she feels guilty about it, but that was taken out of the final cut. Nothing to indicate that Cloud's her koibito.

Page 21 then goes on to talk about Tifa's 3D model for the film and selecting Ms. Ito as her voice actor. Nothing about romance.

So, you argument boils down to 'It doesn't talk about romance enough for me, so the time it touches on it cannot count?'
I'm going to have to use that most unforgivable of insults here, Annie, and call that silly.

So just what confirms that Cloud is Tifa's koibito?

Oh, everything, really. Not the least of which is her wanting Cloud romantically.
But once again, annie, you mistake the issue. Like with COLW, it is not knowing who Woman or Tifa's Koibito is that's the issue.
It's knowing who Tifa is Koibito of. Parsimony suggests one man. One man you refuse to consider.

You don't need a romantic relationship to have relationship problems. You can have relationship problems getting along with a roommate, for example - whether or not you're romantically involved with that roommate. Tres and I have trouble getting along, and we're not romantically involved. Do we have a relationship? We used to be friends (or so I thought) while he was at the CxA forums and the Northern Crater, so yes - I thought we did.

And then you spat in his face, stabbed him in the back and revealed yourself to have no common decency or honesty. You don't have a relationship to be troubled, Anastar.
And even this is a red herring since Nojima mentioned love, family, and marriage, so those ARE involved.
Of course, something tells me you don't think he was referring to 'maybe with Aerith' as a roommate, and that you'd find such a suggestion insulting.

To me, it came across as Tifa trying to help Cloud by offering to talk with him. When he says no, she loses her temper.

Which is irrelevant to romance.

That quote isn't shown in association with that scene from the novella, though. I find it here: http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/tifa.php

There's a different scene pictured with it.

So, she can't be getting upset with Cloud for the same reason in the novella- which has no pictures- because a scene from the movie is pictured?
Once again, you're being silly.

Again, I don't see how that quote is associated with Cloud drinking himself to oblivion in CoT. It's talking about how the new Seventh Heaven was built in order to overcome her sorrow and guilt. Where's it say anything about Tifa offering to help Cloud while he's drinking in CoT?

Because it's a stated motivation and mindset for Tifa. Un unassumed entity. That makes it preferable to your assumed entities by way of explanation. Okkam's razor. It cuts away the fluff.

Show me a quote saying that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, not just a quote saying that their feelings match. I've never heard of that, either.

You've been given one. You kept trying to spin it as 'dim childhood crush.'
You've also been trying to spin two pages stating 'THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS' as emphasizing optionality because one of them mentions a variation in a sidebar.
This is also an Evasion of a direct demand for evidence supporting your position, Anastar. That's another dishonesty from you.

However, page 19 of the Reunion Files does say that Tifa doesn't understand some of the complexities of Cloud's heart, which makes her uneasy. Then it goes on to say that she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. If she's keeping feelings to herself, then why wouldn't she keep that from Cloud?

Now where does it say Tifa keeps her romantic feelings from Cloud? You've shown us she keeps feelings of unease to herself. Where's keeping romance to herself?

Also, her profile in the 10th AU says:

Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.

Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

If Tifa has complex feelings as woman toward Aerith, I haven't seen Tifa express that to Cloud - have you? To me, that means Tifa's keeping it to herself.

And you once again imply these complex feelings are romantically linked, dishonestly ignoring the given explanation.

Completely disinterested? You mean disinterested in a friendship with him, too? I see no indication of that.

So then she wasn't apathetic. You do remember that YOU were arguing SHE AND CLOUD were apathetic, yes?

In your interpretation of the narrative, maybe.

But I gave two quotes above where SE says that she's keeping things from Cloud. Her profile says that Tifa still has complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith even two years later in AC. Where did Tifa ever say that to Cloud?

Anastar, I would like to remind you that your argument- well, one of your arguments anyways, you keep changing them- specifies that Tifa is romantically disinterested in Cloud. So that's in YOUR interpretation of the narrative that she has none here.

Well, Tifa's profile says that Tifa still has complicated feelings toward Aerith two years later in AC. Sounds just like that situation to me.

Complex feelings because Cloud is destroying himself over self blame related to her death. Not romance.
So where the fuck does it say "Cloud and Tifa are not interested in each other because Cloud still loves Aerith?" And do show a quote like you were asked.
And once again, your 'it's optional' screed is shown false.

And nowhere does it say that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally, nor does it say anywhere that the HA HW scene is canon. For that matter, I've never seen a quote where it says that Cloud loves Tifa. I've only seen quotes saying that their feelings match.

So, the new goalpost shift is that it must EXPLICITLY STATE they love each others. Their romantic feelings matching is insufficient.
I'll go tell all the other FF couples they don't count now.

As for where it says that Cloud's not interested in Tifa because he's interested in Aerith, that's inferred in several places:[/quote]

It may be inferred, but it's definitely not implied.

]Deviation - Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly. ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania

This is right next to another segment that says They shared mutual feelings without words. That's in the actual story segment.
And where's the 'because he loves Aerith' here?


Before the Final Battle (divergence):
After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy. ~page198, FFVII Ultimania Omega[/quote]

So where's the 'because he loves Aerith' here?

If there's two versions, and one version is High Affection and one version is Low Affection, it's obvious that the two versions are opposite of one another. If the High Affection is supposed to show that Cloud and Tifa love one another and/or want a romantic relationship with one another, then the Low Affection version does not.

Wow. Unfounded assumptions galore. You never considered that the low version doesn't show anything? You know, being the 'apathetic, short' version? Even when you only have two options, that doesn't mean the two options are diametrically opposed.

Can Cloud love Aerith? For one thing, it's a love triangle. Aerith's FFVII profile says that the Love Triangle is between herself, Cloud and Tifa.

She and Tifa both want Cloud. That's the love triangle.

Tifa's 10th AU profile says that Aerith and Tifa are/were "love rivals".

She and Tifa both want Cloud. That's the love rivalry.

Tifa's 10th AU profile says that Tifa's complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith continue in AC.

And are because Cloud is destroying himself with guilt and self blame over Aerith, not because Cloud loves her. That you KEEP trying to spin this canard just keeps showing how dishonest you really are.

Aerith's picture is shown with Cloud on the FTOIL page under a title about "Love Between Heroes".

And the text mentions all four dates, yet you adamantly reject the idea that Cloud could love Yuffie, even though her date is included in the four.

The FFVII commercial shows this:

Made by a third party, is marketing, never says whose love, and says it can never be.

Kitase said in one statement that Cloud wavers between the two girls in FFVII:

Kitase: When I first read Nojima’s scenario, I felt strongly that his image of a heroine was fresh. The hero didn’t have a typical personality, single-minded or righteous, and Aerith lived in the slums. Those things were really fresh. [/I]And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new. ~Interview with the creators, pg. 8-13, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

I could go on, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if Cloud's not in love with one of the girls, that he's in love with the other.

And here we get to a GIANT false dichotomy, and the grandaddy of all nonsense in this thread.
No, annie, Clooud can love NEITHER girl. We're dealing with a Quadrary state, not a Binary one.
But thank you, honestly, for revealing just how simplistic your view of this narrative really is. You really do think it's a zero sum game of romance.

And where did I ever say that Tifa was pining after Cloud? I said that Tifa may be hoping that Cloud will grow to love her one day, but does that mean she's pining?

Now this is semantic fuckery. That's pining by any reasonable person's standard. Not yours, maybe, but any reasonable person's.

I just looked through my other responses to you, and I see nothing about Tifa pining. I won't bother going through the rest of my responses to other people, but I sure don't remember saying anything about Tifa pining. Pining infers suffering, and I see no indication that Tifa's suffering.

Pining [implies] suffering.
And so, you think Tifa's just hunky dory waiting around to be loved.
This isn't weak or a doormat in your eyes?
You're a strange one.

However, Tifa's 10th AU profile says that she continues to have complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith even in AC. To me, that says she's still jealous of Aerith, which could easily imply that Tifa knows that Cloud still loves Aerith.

An assumption, a quote mine, and a 'could' on top of that.
This is a house of wishing you had cards, Annie.

Okay, I've spoken about how Cloud's affection rating would match Tifa's affection rating to other people. But if you want to insist that it's only Tifa's affection rating that the Date Mech affects, why do Cloud's feelings match Tifa's if you get the High Affection version? Cloud's feelings don't match Tifa's in the beginning of the game,

Yes they do. They've matched since the Water tower.

so how do Cloud's feelings grow to match Tifa's in the HA version if Cloud's feelings aren't also affected by the Date Mech? Why did Kitase say that Cloud can waver between the two females in FFVII if his feelings for Tifa are constant throughout the game?

Because he doesn't know she's interested and another girl- who he is also oblivious of- is present. Cloud himself vascillates, obliviously, between the women as they hope he makes a choice.

And one of the definitions says that "apathetic" means indifferent or unresponsive, which could easily indicate that both of them are indifferent to having a romantic relationship with the other.

William of Okkam weeps. So does the English language.

I believe I explained that above.

Your belief is not born out by the evidence.

It says right here when Tifa's feelings for Cloud started/developed:

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

See, that's where their feelings match from. Easy peasy.

Where does it say Cloud's feelings for Tifa continued? SE says that Cloud had a crush on her when he was a kid, and SE says that Cloud's feelings for Tifa can optionally match in the HA HW scene, but where does it say that Cloud continued to feel the same way for Tifa for the years he was in SOLDIER and during the time he spent in Hojo's lab?

Cloud...
in SOLDIER.
Trying so hard not to laugh right now. And BTW, Cloud's U10 profile, Annie, You were given this information multiple times and you've ignored it each time. It's pathetic each time.

And I don't agree. I think it's referring to Cloud's feelings as a kid.

And you are demonstrably wrong.

I explained in the post. I said that Cloud wasn't the only boy in Nibelheim with a crush on Tifa. What got Tifa interested in Cloud? It says right here:

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the Promise was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

And none of the other boys are at all relevant to the discussion. You brought them up for no reason.

No, both of those paragraphs are talking about a particular scene where Tifa tries to offer help to Cloud. It's when she tries to help Cloud that she's reaching out to him.

And this is related to romance because...?

And she doesn't in the LA version because she's not interested, otherwise known as indifferent.

This is once again merely your assertion, and not borne out by any evidence, including the quote you keep trying to twist.

Was it? That's not what Kitase said about it:

Kitase-san is adamant that cultural art puts too high a value on the dramatically meaningful death, "In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood." ~Edge, May 2003, interview with Kitase and Nomura

How does 'arousing these feelings in the player' have anything to do with it 'being a jump start for Tifa' or not?

And that's your perception of it, not mine.

No, that's what you're describing Tifa as. You just don't want to admit

If that's the way you want to see it, fine. That's not the way I see it.

We know you don't want to see the consequences of what you say. We're painfully aware of it.

Page 19 of the Reunion Files says otherwise:

Tifa's been with Cloud a large part of her life at this point, but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of her heart, and this makes her uneasy. Nonetheless, she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children. (Nojima)

And so does Tifa's 10th AU profile:

That in no way contradicts Tifa being the only one Cloud opened his heart to, or her knowing him all too well or best.

A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.

Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was "the child which Aerith brought here" and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.

Anastar, you keep trying to ignore the This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself bit. We are told WHY she has the complex feelings, and HOW it might be related to Aerith. You're literally ignoring the TEXT ITSELF to suggest an alternate reason.

And you WONDER why people accuse you of quote mining. You're trying to do it with the entire quote present.

Try reading for comprehension. It'll do you wonders.

 

[Dashell]

Something about Tifa's koibito quote

We always say, "But we know she's a mother to the kids and a comrade to Avalanche, so we can determine who she's a sweetheart to."... but the weird thing is, if you look at the quote on Japanese forums, some of them will say, "To Cloud, Tifa is like a mother, a sweetheart and an ally." implying all 3 are talking about Cloud.

Makes me wonder if we're missing something.


EDIT
and just so no one thinks I'm making that up:

http://kakurebito.blog.shinobi.jp/Entry/118/

そして、ここからクラウドはティファとも向き合い、自身が見て見ぬフリをしていた
感情に素直になっていくのだと思います。
攻略本やらで、ティファはクラウドの恋人であり母であり戦友とありますが
二人が結ばれるのは、たぶんＡＣからＤＣの間かなと勝手に想像。
どちらも相手が幸せならそれでいいと思い込んでそうなので
今一歩近づくのに時間がかかりそう。だがそこがクラティの醍醐味。

Bolded part = something like they're bound together and she's like a mother to him and his lover.

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1368274143

野村氏の発言「ティファは母であり恋人であり～うんぬん」が、クラウド＆ティファのカップル好きに火をつけたって感じです。

That says the quote and says Cloud and Tifa are a couple afterwards.

and that's all I have time for but I'll try to find more when I get home

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And even this is a red herring since Nojima mentioned love, family, and marriage, so those ARE involved.
Of course, something tells me you don't think he was referring to 'maybe with Aerith' as a roommate, and that you'd find such a suggestion insulting.

I think that's what I find so baffling about the argument that Nojima wasn't discussing Cloud and Tifa in the context of "love, marriage and family" in that interview about On the Way to a Smile. How can he be discussing Aerith in the context of romance there, but discussing Tifa as a roommate?

Either both are being discussed in terms of romance or both are being discussed in terms of roommates -- and unless the story is "Single White Female," one of those ideas isn't a particularly compelling jumping off point for drama.

 

[Dashell]

I've heard the argument that he was saying "Maybe things would have gone better if Aerith had lived." or something to that effect. But he'd be saying "Maybe things would have gone better with Cloud and Tifa if Aerith had lived..." so they'd STILL be together... even if it IS as friends, he wouldn't be with Aerith obviously

 

[Anastar]

Zealkin

Yes, it was a long one. It's now about 4:00 am, so I didn't finish the whole thing. I'll get to the rest of it tomorrow.

Optionality Stuff

Where is there a quote saying that Cloud loves Tifa non-optionally? Where is there a quote saying that the HA version of the HW scene is canon?

There are plenty:

"She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC".

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. " (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." (CCU, pg. 33)

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)

Actually, not a single one of those quotes qualifies. I said to show me one quote where it says that Cloud LOVES Tifa non-optionally. Those quotes only say that Cloud and Tifa communicate feelings, or that their feelings match. The feelings aren't specified. Since not a single one of those quotes specifies WHAT feelings are shared, then the same sentences can also be describing the LA version.

the quotes I've provided do not talk about Optionality, and talk about the scene as if it has happened, I'd say that's pretty canon.

Ditto what I said above.

The scene had to have had an outcome, it isn't just left blank, so narritively the creators have told us time and time again which scene fills in said blank. It's not the LA scene.

No, the creators haven't specified which outcome fills in said blank. Friendship could fill the blank just as easily as love.

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)

That only says his feelings. It does not specify that those feelings are love. His feelings could also mean that he considers Tifa a good friend, especially when the FFVII UO and U20 specify that the HW scene diverges into two conditions: the LA and HA versions.

Affection Values

What many have tried to express regarding affection values, is that they actually make no sense. So when Cloud accidentally drops barrels on Aerith he hates her? wut?

I did that a couple of times on my first play through by accident, and I certainly did not want Cloud to hate Aerith.

Whether you drop the barrels on Aerith accidentally or not, it still lowers her affection value. So yes, it lowers Cloud's affection level for Aerith as well as Aerith's affection level for Cloud.

Under the Clerith date on the FTOIL page, it says that "who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior". Therefore, it's the way Cloud behaves that changes the women's affection levels. How he behaves indicates how he feels toward them. The feelings are mutual.

Also is his affection low when for all four of his dates, since all four dates FORCE him out of his room?

You've never hesitated to do something that you looked forward to? I remember being pretty shy about going out on my first date, too.

Highwind Scene

And I've asked that you give me evidence that indicates that Clouds thought process went this way. Reason has fact behind it, you have to give me a quote that supports this otherwise it is not true.

Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.

Give me a quote saying this, or your idea is unsupported.

You have said yourself that the HA scene was romantic:

Yes, but I say it's optional. You say it's canon.

Even if it optional one of them had to happen. Please prove to me that the LA scene happened, because Cloud love Aerith.
The Ha sceen happened because There are several quotes referencing it, and none of them talk about optionality,

The quotes you gave me above don't specify whether Cloud feels love or friendship toward Tifa, so the HA version didn't definitely happen.

it IS the HA scene the quotes are talkin about because no feelings were communicated in the LA scene, as you have repeated yourself it ends short, no feelings are expressed.

No, you said that no feelings are expressed. I said it's apathetic and ends short. "Apathetic" can mean that no feelings are expressed, but that's not the only meaning - as I've said before. It can also mean that FEW feelings are expressed, or it can also mean that indifference is expressed.

"Ending short" also doesn't mean that no feelings are expressed. It means that the conversation is brief. "I love you" is brief, isn't it? "I hate you" is brief, isn't it? Yet, both convey plenty of feeling.

Not only that but how would Cloud have Tifa in a different way, if he was already her friend?

Where does it say that Cloud has Tifa in a different way?

Why would they start a family together,

Well, in the first place, they didn't start a family together. It was Barret who brought up the idea, and Marlene asked Cloud to join the family. The way Marlene says it, it sounds like there's a family already existing before Marlene asks Cloud to join.

why would they be talked about by their friends as an item

Where does it say that their friends see them as an item?

why would Tifa need to be left behind by a man?

Why does Cloud need to be a boyfriend in order to leave her behind? He's a man. He can leave a friend behind as easily as he can leave a girlfriend behind.

She would have to BE with one in the first place. The HA scene narratively coincides with the rest of the compilation. Because of these reasons, not my interpretation.

And the LA scene narratively coincides with the rest of the Compilation, too. Therefore, it is your interpretation.

I see nothing talking about Aerith or Clouds behind the scene love when it talks about the LA scene. It says it ends short WHERE does it talk about Aerith? This is the page that has teh deviatios explained right? Why isn't this explained if it's supposedly true then?

Why don't the quotes you gave me above say that Cloud loves Tifa instead of saying that he has feelings for her? Why doesn't it explain that the feelings are love if it's supposedly true?

And one of the definitions says that "apathetic" means indifferent or unresponsive, which could easily indicate that both of them are indifferent to having a romantic relationship with the other. The feelings that match quotes do not relate to the LA scene for a number of reasons.

The main one being that the scenes ends short, it even says on the deviation the difference feelings or indifference. That's not communicating that's not even bringing up that you don't want a relationship, that's leaving things as they are. Without progression romantically. It ends nothing is communicated.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about when you say, "it even says on the deviation the difference feelings or indifference." There's nothing about "difference feelings" or "indifference" in the Deviation descriptions.

As for "That's not communicating that's not even bringing up that you don't want a relationship" - you're making an assumption when you say they don't communicate anything during the LA version. The description of "apathetic" can mean that they are indifferent to each other romantically. If they're indifferent romantically, then they're not interested in a romantic relationship with one another. I don't know if you've ever been very good friends with a man and you want to keep it that way instead of getting involved romantically, but it's happened to me. Sometimes things just need to be clarified, and usually the conversation is brief.

It has been explained to you that the one sideded feelings do not apply to Tifa for a number of reasons.

And do you agree with everything that I explain to you?

You have said you are no expert at the Japanese language, someone tried to explain the mechanics of it to you before in a post, on why each koibito was different. So please if you are so set on this conviction of Tifa's koibito having a one sided meaning please explain it to me using your knowledge of the language. I am no native speaker so I rely on others to translate for me, someone has already explained to me why this does not match up with your interpretation, please explain to me why it does.

Koibito can mean "beloved", or it can mean "sweetheart, lover, boy/girlfriend". "Beloved" can mean one-sided, or it can mean two-sided romance. There is nothing to specify that "koibito" means one-sided or two-sided in that sentence.

And that's not according to me - that's according to what people who know Japanese have told me.

There's also nothing that makes it definite that the use of koibito in that sentence is referring to Cloud. It's possible, but it's not definite.

And no, Johnny wasn't in AC/ACC, but he is part of the Compilation since he was in Case of Denzel.

Reunion Files

Let's look at the full quote:
Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense.Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a big kid himself in some respects.

BOTH Tifa and Aerith have a maternal side to them, and why is this a problem? This is definitely not the only feelings Tifa has for Cloud.

In the first place, Aerith was never said to have a maternal bond to Cloud. Tifa was.

But the main point is that there is nothing about Cloud having a romantic relationship with Tifa on that page.

"Although there's a lot to Tifa's character she's like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times.(Reunion Files)

Not only do you have to you know be WITH a man before getting left behind by one, Tifa is also said here to have communicated her feelings many times to Cloud already, which nullifies what you have continued to say about her wanting to love Cloud but holding back, she has communicated her feelings to him already.

Shera was with Cid when Avalanche first got to Rocket Town in FFVII. Shera was living with Cid. They were not romantically involved at that time. Cid left with Avalanche, so Shera got left behind by a man that she wasn't romantically involved with.

And WHAT feelings has Tifa communicated with Cloud? Doesn't say that Tifa has communicated that she loves Cloud. How do you know that Tifa didn't communicate that she only wants to be friends?

Where is the reference to her kicking the crap out of Loz or fighting Bahumet Sin? Why does it matter what pictures they chose really?

I brought that up because that would be a way to know that the bit about "sweetheart" is referring to Cloud.

How is this not accurate? She was with Cloud does not translate they were best buds at every juncture of their lives. She was with cloud during her childhood,(and she is stated to be childhood friends with Cloud) She was with Cloud throughout the game, and nurses him, she was with Cloud for two years creating a business and raising a family. How is that not correct? She has had lived most of her life with and around Cloud, and will continue to do so.

It's not accurate because Tifa barely knew Cloud during their childhood. She said so to Cloud during the Lifestream event. Also, the FFVII UO says that Tifa didn't take notice of Cloud before the Promise was made, and he left to join SOLDIER shortly after the Promise was made:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega
Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero. ~Cloud's profile, FFVII Ultimania Omega

So she's known Cloud during FFVII and afterwards. As of the end of AC/ACC, she'd only been with Cloud a total of about 3 years at the most. I wouldn't call that a "large part of her life."

- And it's now 4:00 am, so I need to get some sleep. I'll finish the rest tomorrow.

 

[Dashell]

Okay forgive the one word response but:

Whether you drop the barrels on Aerith accidentally or not, it still lowers her affection value. So yes, it lowers Cloud's affection level for Aerith as well as Aerith's affection level for Cloud.

Why?

 

[Elisa Maza]

I would have asked "What?" If you accidentally drop barrels to Aerith, Cloud's affection lowers... as a result? Maybe I have an itty bitty brain, but this doesn't make sense to me.

The barrels are dropped accidentally. Why are we even talking about Cloud's affection (especially since the guy hasn't even got affection points in the game) for something that happens accidentally?

And even if we assume that the player drops barrels on Aerith on purpose, that implies that Cloud dislikes Aerith since day one, so off with the barrels on this bitch???? Wha??????

When are people going to realise that player's choice =/= Cloud's real feelings? (That was a rhetorical question).

 

[Dashell]

Well I want to know the WHY. WHY does Cloud's affection for her lower if he accidentally pushes a wrong barrel? I've still also yet to see how Tifa knows Cloud is talking to Jessie

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I've still also yet to see how Tifa knows Cloud is talking to Jessie

'Cause she's wearing her Orthopedic Underwear of Psycho Nagging Bitch(+2), of course.

Actually, not a single one of those quotes qualifies. I said to show me one quote where it says that Cloud LOVES Tifa non-optionally. Those quotes only say that Cloud and Tifa communicate feelings, or that their feelings match. The feelings aren't specified. Since not a single one of those quotes specifies WHAT feelings are shared, then the same sentences can also be describing the LA version.

"Not a single one" -- the 10th AU quote that accompanies a screenshot from the high affection version must be referring to the version it doesn't accompany. I'm glad we have Annie around to help us see that the truth is always counterintuitive, and that guidebooks are designed to get us lost.

Under the Clerith date on the FTOIL page, it says that "who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior". Therefore, it's the way Cloud behaves that changes the women's affection levels.

Apparently, Barret's a woman, guys. Well. Huh. Ya learn something new every day.

Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.

Won't find the word "love" on a page entitled "For the One I Love."

Maybe the problem is that it wasn't in English?

Where does it say that Cloud has Tifa in a different way?

Speak up, Annie! We can't hear you over the sound of that roflcopter flying by!

And speaking of roflcopters:

(A few days ago)

Simple answer: I never said that Cloud talks about being in love with Aerith during the LA version. I never said that Tifa tells Cloud during the LA version that she doesn't want anything to do with him as long as he's in love with Aerith.

...

I never said they had a conversation about it.

(A couple weeks ago)

So it means that Cloud was being honest with Tifa about his feelings and vice versa. How is that contradicted by calling "Low Affection"? Cloud can't honestly say to Tifa something like, "Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."

It's more than obvious that SE left out the actual conversations on purpose because they wanted it to be left open to the interpretation of the player.

(One hour ago)

As for "That's not communicating that's not even bringing up that you don't want a relationship" - you're making an assumption when you say they don't communicate anything during the LA version. The description of "apathetic" can mean that they are indifferent to each other romantically. If they're indifferent romantically, then they're not interested in a romantic relationship with one another. I don't know if you've ever been very good friends with a man and you want to keep it that way instead of getting involved romantically, but it's happened to me. Sometimes things just need to be clarified, and usually the conversation is brief.

Nope, this woman has never said that Cloud and Tifa actually had a conversation about their romantic indifference for one another.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Well I want to know the WHY. WHY does Cloud's affection for her lower if he accidentally pushes a wrong barrel? I've still also yet to see how Tifa knows Cloud is talking to Jessie

The reason, I shall tell you it.

It's obviously because when Cloud pushed the wrong barrel accidentally, and Aerith is forced to fight the guards, Cloud sees her fighting pathetically and starts thinking "Gross, this woman is pretty weak, I don't think I like her very much". The more barrels he pushes wrong accidentally, the more he sees Aerith fighting, the more he gets turned off. Hence why HIS affection for Aerith drops just as hers drops as well.



As for Tifa knowing that Cloud talked to Jessie twice, it's obviously because once they got back to the base, Jessie talks to Tifa about it OFFSCREEN. Since the game is in Cloud's perspective, you never really see it. But it happened.

I mean, there has to be an explanation for the mysterious affection points system, you know?



Did I do it right? Did I interpret right? Did I?



PS: How come WE never get a quote where it straight-up says Cloud loves Aerith? All we see is interpretation carp.

 

[Master Bates]

That only says his feelings. It does not specify that those feelings are love. His feelings could also mean that he considers Tifa a good friend, especially when the FFVII UO and U20 specify that the HW scene diverges into two conditions: the LA and HA versions.

And when said "feelings" are applied to Aerith, it somehow means romance and only romance. No surprise there.

Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.

Congratulations, Anastar! You just made deductive reasoning impossible. We're all idiots who can't know what's what unless it's explicitly specified despite the fact that it has already been specified. If it finally comes to this, I want them to feed me with a golden spoon with the contents served on a silver platter

Give me a quote saying this, or your idea is unsupported.

How is her idea unsupported when said scene is included in a page that talks about romantic love? Does not compute.

Well I want to know the WHY. WHY does Cloud's affection for her lower if he accidentally pushes a wrong barrel? I've still also yet to see how Tifa knows Cloud is talking to Jessie

It is in my headcanon that Tifa's a nagging stalker-bitch who puts bugs all around Cloud so she could monitor him 24/7. I kid

 

[Dashell]

Also I'm not sure I understand this part:

"Look, Tifa, you mean a lot to me, but... I'm not in love with you. At least, not romantically. You're more like a sister to me than anything else."

...

there's another way to be in love with someone?

 

[Vendel]

Highwind Scene
Then show me a quote where it says that Cloud feels love for Tifa during the HW scene without it being specified as optional. "Feelings" or "mutual feelings" doesn't qualify because we don't know what feelings. I want to see the word LOVE used.

As absurd as the "doesn't say what feelings" argument is. You and those who believe as you do have demanded that those feelings be specified for some time now. And when that finally happens? Your "official response" was that the page doesn't say what it actually says. Or to be more precise, you shoved in all kinds of extra meaning to make it meaningless.

It only took you three months to come up with that.

 

[Guts]

The reason, I shall tell you it.

It's obviously because when Cloud pushed the wrong barrel accidentally, and Aerith is forced to fight the guards, Cloud sees her fighting pathetically and starts thinking "Gross, this woman is pretty weak, I don't think I like her very much". The more barrels he pushes wrong accidentally, the more he sees Aerith fighting, the more he gets turned off. Hence why HIS affection for Aerith drops just as hers drops as well.

What a prick. "hurdur she sucks in a fight vs trained soldiers, imma dump your shit"

Sounds like it's an incredibly self centred and poorly thought out reason to lower your opinion of someone, might say something about Cloud himself perhaps.