The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Celes Chere]

Your rephrasing Lady Lifestream, still does not fit. The question is not "Do you want Cloud to come in?" but rather "do you think HE wants to come in?"

On Quex's forum I asked a Cloti question, and it made sense( the answers I got in return.) Yeah I admit, I've jumped sides alot during this year. xD

You mean about the Highwind scene? It's things that we've all said before and you never agreed. I'm just wondering what it was that was said that made you change your mind so heavily. Over night at that.

Also, I agree with Aerbear. On the fact that Anastar hasn't been directly insulting towards anyone, hasn't called any one's arguments bullshit etc. What Anastar highlighted as slander IS slander no matter if you agree it's justified or not. THIS LTD thread is supposed to be more heavly watched over so that things stay civil. Unfortunately that means everyone's gonna be overly touchy about every little thing. I'm not defending either side, I'm just saying it's the rules and it's not fair if one member gets away with it and another member gets warned for it. Sadly that's what this thread has come to but it appears none of the mods are keeping it in line anymore... except maybe Xelloss who must not have checked in here for awhile. I mean, drama is already starting to fester because of it... can't we just counter each others arguments without insulting one another? Not trying to back seat moderate either, but I mean someone has to say SOMETHING.

 

[Kobato]

Your rephrasing Lady Lifestream, still does not fit. The question is not "Do you want Cloud to come in?" but rather "do you think HE wants to come in?"

Oh .....sorry.

You mean about the Highwind scene? It's things that we've all said before and you never agreed. I'm just wondering what it was that was said that made you change your mind so heavily. Over night at that.

I can't think up of a reason or a excuse for this. I just........ changed.

Sorry if my undecisiveness, is causing any unwanted drama.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

I definitely don't like Tifa, but I think she's easy to relate to. She's kind of clingy and annoying (in my opinion),

Isn't that exactly how you would describe Aerith on the first disc?
And are you only referring to the OG now? Because if I recall correctly, SE's goal was to NOT make Tifa clingy in AC/C.
I don't know how anyone can dislike Tifa. She puts her friends in the first place, and forgets about her own problems/feelings. She have a beautiful heart, and she's always caring and loving. She's also strong and cheerful, as Cloud described her.

Aerith, well.. she have the same qualities. I like her even more than Tifa, to be honest. But you gotta admit that she flirts a lot with Cloud, and infront of Tifa too. Which of course, makes her jealous and hurts her like a human being.

"Her unusual abilities allow her to heal her allies, but she often seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa." -Aerith's description in FFVII

And when you talk to Tifa and can choose your answers, you actually win Tifa points by caring for Aerith. Who said that, again? Someone need to explain it better than me.

Cloud is maybe a little too sensitive, like her, and doesn't seem to communicate very well with her.

Cloud isn't good at communicating with anyone, really. Tifa is the only person who understands him all too well tho, and somehow gets him on the right track again.

Nojima said things "might not work" between him and Tifa, and personally I agree.

But things do start to work again between them in AC.

You aren't being mean AT ALL. You're talking to me, not in a forceful way like the rest of them.

Ouch?

 

[Marle]

What the fuck just happened?

I'll be responding to all this when I get home and can actually type on a keyboard instead of a shitty phone.

Seriously though, WTF?

 

[Celes Chere]

Oh .....sorry.

Oh sorry for what? I wasn't even saying that towards you. O_o

I can't think up of a reason or a excuse for this. I just........ changed.

Sorry if my undecisiveness, is causing any unwanted drama.

Lol, it's not causing any drama I was only curious.

And about Tifa being clingy, the reunion files state they meant to make Tifa's character the opposite of that. Observe:

http://www.ffrepublic.com/imageuploader/42-vhhwmkllho.jpg

 

[Vivi]

I can't think up of a reason or a excuse for this. I just........ changed.

Sorry if my undecisiveness, is causing any unwanted drama.

Honestly, I recommend that you just walk away from the LTD. I'm not trying to rub salt in the wound, but I do remember how upset you were a while back in this thread. You might just need a break. There's nothing wrong with that.

Also, it's perfectly fine to be indecisive about which pairing you prefer. I flip flop all the time, but that's why I never debate in here.

 

[aerbear]

Ouch?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean you. My bad.


I'm not trying to start a Tifa thing, though. I was just responding to somebody Sorry.

 

[Dashell]

Also, I agree with Aerbear. On the fact that Anastar hasn't been directly insulting towards anyone, hasn't called any one's arguments bullshit etc. What Anastar highlighted as slander IS slander no matter if you agree it's justified or not. THIS LTD thread is supposed to be more heavly watched over so that things stay civil. Unfortunately that means everyone's gonna be overly touchy about every little thing. I'm not defending either side, I'm just saying it's the rules and it's not fair if one member gets away with it and another member gets warned for it. Sadly that's what this thread has come to but it appears none of the mods are keeping it in line anymore... except maybe Xelloss who must not have checked in here for awhile. I mean, drama is already starting to fester because of it... can't we just counter each others arguments without insulting one another? Not trying to back seat moderate either, but I mean someone has to say SOMETHING.

Just to say, I don't think, "Do you realize what little sense you make?" is slander by definition. Slander has to be false... and it's true that she makes little sense to whoever said that. BUT... I will agree that it's not very nice


and yes, enough with the favoritism please. We had such a nice thing going, then everyone started treating others like crap again and I don't really see the point. This was supposed to be zero tolerance. The ONLY reason some people are here debating was they heard it was zero tolerance. So hows about we get back to that?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Claim: Tifa's and Cloud's love was made canon when they started to be a family and when it was said that they shared mutual feelings under the Highwind.
So Cloud's romantic interest in Tifa was made canon in a highly equivocal quote and a mention that he was now part of a family?

Part of a family, no. Not on its own.
That he and Tifa formed a family, yes. That he's seen as the father of the family by two people in it, and Tifa is seen as its mother, yes.
As for the Highwind quotes, they're really not equivocal at all. Feelings for each other, mutual feelings are confirmed on that evening, and by the FTOIL page, we know they are of romance. From p232 we know they are said earnestly, and from UO198, we know that the conversation in the alternate version is apathetic- contains no feelings.
Very simple logic, really.

For the family part, I think it was already answered, and therefore, the only remaining evidence are the lines about the Highwind - lines that leave much room for speculation and interpretation.
I guess there is nothing else...?

Oh, there's plenty else. But doing the rattatat of the evidence gatling can get a bit noisy.
Especially since I like to fire chronologically.

Claim: The CecilxRosaxKain Love Triangle is comparable to FFVII's love triangle.
Wasn't Rosa's love for Cecil made clear? Didn't she say that she loved him?

In so many words? No. She made her choice clearly, but she never used the word 'love' in the OG.
Remember, though, Rosa's the point of that triangle. She's the one with two interested men.

Claim: Tifa's lines are no prohibition for Cloud entering her room.
First, I agree with all the argue about why Tifa did this and why not.
But second, it seems as if she is prohibiting him from going in there. If she blatantly says to her surrounding friends she doesn't want to have him in her room, then this comes close to prohibiting him from being there.
But, indeed, she doesn't explicitly prohibit it, right.

Okay, then I'll rephrase:
"If she blatantly tells her surrounding friends through shaking her head that she doesn't want to have him in her room, then this comes close to prohibiting him from being there."

But she isn't asked 'should we let him in.' She's asked 'Do you think he wants in?'

Does it affect anything? What changes due to the Highwind scene existing/being High Affection or Low Affection?

An interesting question, but one entirely irrelevant to the fact that the High Highwind scene is one of the four most important scenes of FFVII.

OWD said the dates/date mechanics aren't important, so neither is the Highwind scene.

This logic does not apply.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know we're supposed to be cynical thundercunts to each other, and we can't make jokes, and Final Fantasy isn't supposed to make us happy, we're supposed to be angry and fight with each other for 15 years because we see things a little differently.

Man, there's reading into stuff that isn't there and then there's 'you apparently have some sort of past history with me and are venting' which this REALLY feels like.

And I did help her, but no one responded to what I wrote. Funny that they responded to the Aer Bear hug comment instead.

No one responded? Have ye not eyes? Are ye so blind as cannot see? Plenty of folks responded to you.

I haven't seen Anastar being rude at all. But OWD, on the other hand, and quite a few people on your side, have been.

Anastar was not responding to points, omitting points from replies, responding with materially disingenuous arguments and in several cases BLATANTLY quotemining and strawmanning. That's pretty fucking damn rude from where I sit. And where I sit is a very comfy chair.

As for self contradictory, I think a lot of the Compilation has serious contradictory on its own. When we're dealing with contradictory subject matter, it may be hard to get your point across, especially since her opinions/ideas/interpretations are being ignored or shot down entirely because it doesn't make sense to you.

Not just to me. In general. She has refuted her own argument and contradicted herself. OWD caught her in one such self contradiction in the post of hers you posted the Aerith plush in response to.

I see Anastar giving quotes and facts, and then her interpretation, opinion, and analysis of those quotes and facts. I see about eight people denying all of it. You don't have to agree with her, and she doesn't have to agree with you. So it's only "bullshit" to you. OWD should have left that to himself because it isn't a "cogent argument."

Technically, yes, this is correct. Calling Bullshit here is not a cogent argument, but instead the reaction to seeing Anastar DENY HER OWN WORDS. Anastar says she never said X. OWD calls bullshit and proves that Anastar SAID EXACTLY THAT.

You said that the date mechanics, and therefore the dates, aren't important. But that's also basic storytelling. Aerith tells Cloud how she feels and her intentions on her optional date. Aerith's feelings are also a part of the story and as such need to be addressed in the story. She loves Cloud. That's your set up.

And so does Tifa. Hers need to be addressed to, then.

But "it affects diddly squat of the actual story." Because there are four outcomes? The Highwind scene has two outcomes. Not one. Which version you get depends on the date mechanics and how much you use her in combat. The dates rely on only the date mechanics. But that affects "diddly squat."

So if the versions of the Highwind scene rely on the date mechanics as well, this must affect "diddly squat."

The AV doesn't really affect the actual story much. Nothing major progresses on any of the four dates, and we kinda know which of the HW scenes happened. So yes, it would affect diddly. It affects one thing with no real narrative meaning, and another thing with a defined narrative meaning.

Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue?

I'll repost what I wrote yesterday:

You do realize that's far from the grand extent of our evidence, right? And that THE CREATORS associate the scene with the risque dialogue is materially different than what some fans think.

When she says this, that's one of the reasons I see her as being really dependent. Nothing else matters, not AVALANCHE, not their other friends, not Marlene, in comparison to Cloud?

He's in a fucking Wheelchair.
Also, by this logic, Cloud is dependant on Tifa too. Only her opinion matters!

I just see Tifa in a different light, I guess.

I definitely don't like Tifa,

So often. So often this crops up. It's actually fascinating.

but I think she's easy to relate to. She's kind of clingy and annoying (in my opinion), but a lot of us chicks are. But in FFVII, she shows that she's too dependent. She cries a lot,

Um... Are we talking about Tifa here? She cries like twice.

she only seems to care about Cloud. I think when a girl is too dependent on a particular dude, she shouldn't be with him. I think there's someone in the Final Fantasy VII world that will make her kind of grow up, be independent. I think she should be with someone like Reno, who has a really strong, in-your-face personality. That'd be great for her.

Really now. RENO? Now I know we're in 'Anyone but Cloud' territory.

Cloud is maybe a little too sensitive, like her, and doesn't seem to communicate very well with her. Nojima said things "might not work" between him and Tifa, and personally I agree.

He actually said that things would not go well, not that they 'might not work.' He also said they could work through those issues.

I'm not denying that Square seems to favor the HA version. They said themselves, the other version is apathetic and ends quickly. But both versions wouldn't be there for no reason.

This argument also applies to the end of 10-2. Remember that. Keep remembering that.

It may be just because Aerith is dead, but either way, it does seem to me like they favor Cloud and Tifa in the later Compilation and the books, and favor Cloud and Aerith in other games (Dissidia, Kingdom Hearts, Itadaki Street.)

Aerith isn't even favored in those games, actually. Especially not Dissidia or ISS.

Not trying to pull those three AU games into here, but I just think they're trying to please everyone. But even if they favor the HA version, this doesn't make it canon. It's like you said on the other forum, bringing in the Highwind scene sucks because everybody goes around and around and won't agree with each other. We all here love Final Fantasy, right? This is the most important thing, is it not? More important than Cloud's relationshits. But calling Cloud and Tifa canon because Nojima only mentioned a line of dialogue from the High Affection version (which is undeniably the reason the Highwind scene is infamous) and the HA version is most dominant in the Ultimanias, doesn't make it canon. We're still allowed to choose who Cloud likes based on our personal interpretations, and that's the beauty of them not making anything canon.

So, despite repeatedly referencing the scene, calling it the most important scene in the game, stating that events which happen only in it happen actually happen, none of that is sufficient to render it canon?
Well what the hell is, then?

It's when someone insists that their side is canon, that's when people start getting pissed.

And? When someone says, rightfully, that evolution is a factually accurate theory explaining the complexity of life on earth, people get pissed. Doesn't make it wrong or wrong to mention.

I do believe there's no canon couple. I'm not here to prove Cloud/Aerith, I'm just trying to say that calling us delusional, saying it's over when it isn't over, and excluding us is not right.

Apart from Vendel, I don't think anyone was calling you delusional. As for it being over, you've got to make a much better case for it not being over than you've been doing.

I consider Aerith to be that personal memory. But since Cloud didn't clarify, we're both speculating.

Aerith at that point has never been referred to in association with memory, certainly not as a personal one. Tifa, meanwhile, has very heavily been associated with Cloud's memories, being the subject of his most important ones.

I connect different dots. So I'm wrong?

If the dots aren't the ones presented in the story, then yes.

Because Square Enix doesn't say it's up to the players. We're all entitled to your beliefs. Thank you, and hallelujah. Praise be to Yevon.

You're right. SE DOESN'T say it's up to the players. SE says the answers are all there, but that they won't be spoonfed.

Also, I agree with Aerbear. On the fact that Anastar hasn't been directly insulting towards anyone, hasn't called any one's arguments bullshit etc.

But there are many different ways to be rude and insulting without using 'foul language'

What Anastar highlighted as slander IS slander no matter if you agree it's justified or not.

No. It may be an insult or a harsh word, but these things are not slander. First off, slander is required to be false. Even if these things were false, we are saying them to her face, not to defame her to the world. Many things they may be, but they're not slander.

As for we're supposed to be civil, that is true. But being civil is again much more than simply not calling bullshit. It's also not making false claims, not quotemining, not ignoring posts and points, not shifting the goalposts. Not using broken record tactics, etc. etc. etc.
Another mod can make the determination here. Any ruling I make on the subject will be seen as tainted from beginning to end.

 

[Marle]

Okay, so here we go.

So first off, why are Tifa and Aerith being bashed? At all? Isn't there a rule against bashing of either female character in this thread? If there isn't, it should be. You don't have to like either of them. I don't like Snow but I don't go into the FF13 thread and bash him when I know it'll just press people's buttons.

Are we trying to piss each other off now by intentionally attacking the characters? Aerith and Tifa are both flawed in their own ways. They're also two of the most fucking epic female characters ever created by Square and just try arguing with me about that.

I'd greatly appreciate it if any hate against these two was just not brought up. At all. It's pissing me off and it's obviously pissing other people off. The debate will not be a civil one if we're going to point fingers and tear down the opposing ship's female character. That is exactly how shit starts getting ugly and it only makes people become more hostile towards one another.

So stop the hate.

Next:

When she says this, that's one of the reasons I see her as being really dependent. Nothing else matters, not AVALANCHE, not their other friends, not Marlene, in comparison to Cloud?

I just see Tifa in a different light, I guess.

I definitely don't like Tifa, but I think she's easy to relate to. She's kind of clingy and annoying (in my opinion), but a lot of us chicks are. But in FFVII, she shows that she's too dependent.

Aerbear, I get that you don't like Tifa and that's fine. I'm not gonna sit here and force you to like a character you clearly don't.

But I'm going to rebutt your reasoning for disliking her because, in my opinion, there is no valid reason in disliking a character. It simply is what it is. I have no real good shiny reason as to why I dislike Snow. I just do. Period, end of.

And so, to start with is your claim of Tifa being dependable on Cloud. She is dependent on Cloud but for one main reason; it's his story FF7 is about. Everything revolves around him. Tifa is a critical component to his past, a key character that develops and unveils his lost and forgotten memories. She is integral to his story and thus, the plot that surrounds him. Also, he's all she's got left. Tifa has no one. She has no family, she has no home, she barely has her memories. Cloud is the only thing left for her to remind her of everything she's lost. Can you really blame her for clinging to him the way she does?

It makes her emotionally weak, yes. But annoying? Not really. Maybe you found her annoying, but if it were me, I'd be much the same. I guess I'd be annoying to you as well then?

It's her flaw, and it may be annoying to you and others, but it makes her real to me. Her flaws add that three dimensional personality that SE has yet to really manage to reproduce in many of their other games.

That being said, Aerith also has her flaws and I love her for them, too. She wouldn't be the same if they stripped her of them, either. She can be sassy, inconsiderate and slightly naive but it makes her all the more endearing and unforgettable. If she was turned into this perfect, sweet, loving girl with no flaws, I don't think I'd like her at all, just like how if they stripped Tifa of her vulnerability, she wouldn't be as appealing.

She cries a lot, she only seems to care about Cloud. I think when a girl is too dependent on a particular dude, she shouldn't be with him. I think there's someone in the Final Fantasy VII world that will make her kind of grow up, be independent. I think she should be with someone like Reno, who has a really strong, in-your-face personality. That'd be great for her. Cloud is maybe a little too sensitive, like her, and doesn't seem to communicate very well with her. Nojima said things "might not work" between him and Tifa, and personally I agree.

I'd just like to ask when you witness Tifa crying? Not to be rude or anything, but I don't really recall any crying scenes. Or maybe I'm just terrible at remembering what polygons can do Thanks.

I do agree that Reno x Tifa is a fun crack pairing though Ship them so hard x3! But again, seriously, Cloud and Tifa are good for each other. And I guess we'll definitely disagree here but hey! I also think Aerith and Cloud were compatible. Both girls are suitable for Cloud, both girls would have problems having a relationship with him not because THEY are the ones with something wrong but because Cloud is a huge case of issues and baggage.

So problems galore, regardless!

Anywho, Cloud and Tifa did grow up-together. Throughout all the events of FF7, they did a lot of maturing and their feelings for each other also grew. They have problems, they're both bad with words and tend to be shy but that doesn't mean they're incompatible. It just means they're a normal couple dealing with typical issues lots of couples deal with. They're both emotionally weak and rely heavily on each other for emotional support but not because they're actually weak characters. It's mainly because they've been through so much tragedy and disappointment that they always feel alone and isolated from everyone else. They both have nothing but each other-everything was taken away from them.

Aerith was also mentioned as maybe a better choice for Cloud but that they too would have problems (someone fetch that quote, I'm so bad at that D. Does that mean they're incompatible? I know you don't think so and I sure as hell don't think so. It's just the way relationships work; you're happy, you hurt each other and then you get past it and grow closer. Love isn't always candy canes and lollipops. There's always a nitty gritty part of it, too.

But calling Cloud and Tifa canon because Nojima only mentioned a line of dialogue from the High Affection version (which is undeniably the reason the Highwind scene is infamous) and the HA version is most dominant in the Ultimanias, doesn't make it canon.

What? Infamous because of the risque line? I'm gonna go ahead and say I'm taking you mean the only reason people like it or care about is because some think Cloud and Tifa did the deed? If so, that's sort of offensive because I definitely didn't enjoy it solely for that purpose alone. :T Tell me that isn't what you meant, please?

It's when someone insists that their side is canon, that's when people start getting pissed.

I do believe there's no canon couple. I'm not here to prove Cloud/Aerith, I'm just trying to say that calling us delusional, saying it's over when it isn't over, and excluding us is not right.

But calling people who do see CloTi as canon delusional is okay? The only time I've seen people call anyone delusional is when clerith is mentioned as canon in their beliefs and, I agree it's mean but doing the same to the people who think cloti is canon isn't any better. (Not saying you said that! , just in general about 'the LTD is over' article).

No one wants to exclude you guys! I, for one, am happy to see some clerith fans over here debating. I'm sure many others are, too. Personally, I do believe cloti is canon but that the LTD won't end, for obvious reasons.

Okay, done ranting. Officially.

 

[Elisa Maza]

It's when someone insists that their side is canon, that's when people start getting pissed.

Dunno about others, personally I get pissed when I see too poor arguments in a debate.

I do believe there's no canon couple. I'm not here to prove Cloud/Aerith, I'm just trying to say that calling us delusional, saying it's over when it isn't over, and excluding us is not right.

Uh, right, my bad that I didn't clarify that I wasn't referring to your post with this one. And for the record, no, I don't think you're arguing for Clerith here. Just against Cloti. So, we're cool for this?

I consider Aerith to be that personal memory. But since Cloud didn't clarify, we're both speculating.

On what basis? In other words, what exactly is this personal memory Cloud has with Aerith in your mind?

To clarify my position, I take the game itself, when kid!Cloud says "personal, tender memories... no one can never know".

You?

I connect different dots. So I'm wrong?

I think I'll be honest here and answer "yes". It's called "misinterpretation". I firmly believe that's what you did. And truthfully, after seeing your opinion about Tifa and and the LTD and then when I see what the creators say, I'd think that you are wrong in your opinions, rather than the creators themselves. Because you know, they created the story. They're the creators.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

Because Square Enix doesn't say it's up to the players.

You know, when they favour a scene where the romantic feeling is mutual, when they say that they have a future together, that they belong together, I'd say they sure as hell point it out without the actual words because words aren't the only way (oh hey, Tifa reference!).

We're all entitled to your beliefs. Thank you, and hallelujah. Praise be to Yevon.

And don't expect your beliefs not to be challenged in a public forum, in a thread made for such a purpose.

Personally I prefer Shiva, but whatever rocks your boat.

 

[aerbear]

Man, there's reading into stuff that isn't there and then there's 'you apparently have some sort of past history with me and are venting' which this REALLY feels like.

Have you seen the way people on my side are treated on the internet?

No one responded? Have ye not eyes? Are ye so blind as cannot see? Plenty of folks responded to you.

Most of that was recent or I didn't read it until I was already writing, and I wasn't thinking about fixing it. Me eyes are fine.

Anastar was not responding to points, omitting points from replies, responding with materially disingenuous arguments and in several cases BLATANTLY quotemining and strawmanning. That's pretty fucking damn rude from where I sit. And where I sit is a very comfy chair.

Maybe it's because she's responded to these things before.
Almost every page on this thing are made of the same things. It only keeps going because there's no understanding.

Not just to me. In general. She has refuted her own argument and contradicted herself. OWD caught her in one such self contradiction in the post of hers you posted the Aerith plush in response to.

Like I said earlier, when you're dealing with contradictory subject matter (the Compilation's many contradictions), it might be hard to get your point across.

And so does Tifa. Hers need to be addressed to, then.

I was using his logic. I don't actually agree with it. I only meant that it's a little contradicting.

The AV doesn't really affect the actual story much. Nothing major progresses on any of the four dates, and we kinda know which of the HW scenes happened. So yes, it would affect diddly. It affects one thing with no real narrative meaning, and another thing with a defined narrative meaning.

I don't see the diddly. It's optional.

And that THE CREATORS associate the scene with the risque dialogue is materially different than what some fans think.

Nojima associates the scene with risque dialogue. And so do most people. If the HA version didn't happen, that scene probably wouldn't be well remembered. It's been speculated for years. I take it that he's aware.

Also, by this logic, Cloud is dependant on Tifa too. Only her opinion matters!

I didn't get that impression.

So often. So often this crops up. It's actually fascinating.

I was directly responding to one person, didn't mean to upset or offend or piss you off. I'm sorry.

Um... Are we talking about Tifa here? She cries like twice.

By crying, I also meant whining. But that's only my point of view, and I know there are other ways to see her. I didn't mean to imply that my opinion is supposed to be absolute.

Really now. RENO? Now I know we're in 'Anyone but Cloud' territory.

That isn't what I meant.

He actually said that things would not go well, not that they 'might not work.' He also said they could work through those issues.

He said they could, but that doesn't mean they will. He said Marlene and Denzel could help them, but they shouldn't need them to. If they can't fix their own crap by themselves, what are they going to do when Marlene and Denzel are gone? This is only my opinion.

This argument also applies to the end of 10-2. Remember that. Keep remembering that.

I've brought this up before. Remember THAT?

Aerith isn't even favored in those games, actually. Especially not Dissidia or ISS.

I said before that, I think and it seems to me. Because somebody asked me about if I agreed with something and I gave my explanation.

So, despite repeatedly referencing the scene, calling it the most important scene in the game, stating that events which happen only in it happen actually happen, none of that is sufficient to render it canon?
Well what the hell is, then?

When something happens for sure or there's a clear outcome afterwards. The High/Low Affection doesn't change the way the story ends, continues, or what happens. It's there if Tifa's affection is high enough. You don't have to get that one version.

And? When someone says, rightfully, that evolution is a factually accurate theory explaining the complexity of life on earth, people get pissed. Doesn't make it wrong or wrong to mention.

Sounds like your opinion there.

Apart from Vendel, I don't think anyone was calling you delusional. As for it being over, you've got to make a much better case for it not being over than you've been doing.

I didn't mean that someone had called me specifically delusional here. But people who are not on the Cloud/Tifa side of a debate get called delusional and stupid and ignorant a lot. Who are they to tell us that we are?

Aerith at that point has never been referred to in association with memory, certainly not as a personal one. Tifa, meanwhile, has very heavily been associated with Cloud's memories, being the subject of his most important ones.

When Cloud remembers Aerith, technically that would be a memory. So she is associated with his memories. Because she wasn't blatantly called a memory doesn't mean it couldn't be true.

If the dots aren't the ones presented in the story, then yes.

They're presented.

You're right. SE DOESN'T say it's up to the players. SE says the answers are all there, but that they won't be spoonfed.

Are ye eyes blind to my sarcasm?

Yes, they do say it's up to the players. When they say the answers are all there, they aren't lying. They're there for both sides, and that's where we choose. I can always make an Optimus Prime speech if you want me to elaborate.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Do not double post, and keep the chit chat out of the thread. Please refer to the initial post here and abide by the rules.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Have you seen the way people on my side are treated on the internet?

Have you seen the way anyone is treated on the internet?

Most of that was recent or I didn't read it until I was already writing, and I wasn't thinking about fixing it. Me eyes are fine.

Much of it predates your 'aerbear hug' response.

Maybe it's because she's responded to these things before.
Almost every page on this thing are made of the same things. It only keeps going because there's no understanding.

No, many of these things were new requests, new demands, and even the very essay she reposted from elsewhere which contained these examples of disingenuous debating.

Like I said earlier, when you're dealing with contradictory subject matter (the Compilation's many contradictions), it might be hard to get your point across.

But on this subject, there really aren't many contradictions. It's very consistent on this matter. And Anastar has literally said she has not said things she has been quoted as saying. She may be getting her point across badly, but that is leading to direct self contradiction.

I was using his logic. I don't actually agree with it. I only meant that it's a little contradicting.

Her, and no, that's not her logic. Her logic is that the AV itself is nothing more than a game mechanic. That you have these different outcomes based on the actuality of the narrative than FF10-2's choices have on the canonicity of its ending.

I don't see the diddly. It's optional.

So's Tidus coming back to life or not. One of those versions is still canon. Likewise Shadow dying. I hold that we can determine that one version of the Highwind scene is canon, favored by the other by the creators. Anastar actually provided the evidence for this in her last post while claiming it meant the opposite.

Nojima associates the scene with risque dialogue. And so do most people. If the HA version didn't happen, that scene probably wouldn't be well remembered. It's been speculated for years. I take it that he's aware.

Nojima is a creator of the game. He was head writer. He associates the highwind scene with Risque Dialogue. His mind defaults to the high version.

I didn't get that impression.

Yes, but your impression of Tifa doesn't actually resemble her all that much, truth be told. And Cloud does say that only Tifa's opinion matters.

I was directly responding to one person, didn't mean to upset or offend or piss you off. I'm sorry.

You didn't piss me off. You just gave me additional information. And it's, as mentioned, fascinating.

By crying, I also meant whining. But that's only my point of view, and I know there are other ways to see her. I didn't mean to imply that my opinion is supposed to be absolute.

So, please, give us some examples of the whining, then.

That isn't what I meant.

No, I know you weren't saying she was with Reno, but that you think RENO would be better for her and help her 'grow up' is mind boggling.

He said they could, but that doesn't mean they will. He said Marlene and Denzel could help them, but they shouldn't need them to. If they can't fix their own crap by themselves, what are they going to do when Marlene and Denzel are gone? This is only my opinion.

Fix it on their own. Couples have problems. They work through them.

I've brought this up before. Remember THAT?

It still can't be stressed enough.

I said before that, I think and it seems to me. Because somebody asked me about if I agreed with something and I gave my explanation.

And I'm saying that what you assert as 'favoring Aerith' really... doesn't. Even in the AUs, there's not much there.

When something happens for sure or there's a clear outcome afterwards. The High/Low Affection doesn't change the way the story ends, continues, or what happens. It's there if Tifa's affection is high enough. You don't have to get that one version.

You don't have to. But you also don't have to let Shadow live or revive Tidus.
But we can use surrounding information to determine which version happened. Same as we can do with the Highwind scene.

Sounds like your opinion there.

The evolution is a fact, that people get pissed when you say it is, or that it's not wrong to mention that it is?
Because the closest to opinion would be the third one, and there's nothing legally or ethically wrong with stating the truth even if it angers people.

I didn't mean that someone had called me specifically delusional here. But people who are not on the Cloud/Tifa side of a debate get called delusional and stupid and ignorant a lot. Who are they to tell us that we are?

People. On the internet.
And if you don't want folks calling you delusional, make sure what you claim is in close agreements with the facts.

When Cloud remembers Aerith, technically that would be a memory. So she is associated with his memories. Because she wasn't blatantly called a memory doesn't mean it couldn't be true.

Aerith was never causally linked with being a personal memory by Cloud. Why should we assume she is the personal memory when there is someone else in the game who has been associated, EXTREMELY HEAVILY with Cloud's memory.

They're presented.

So prove it. No quote mines, no twisting quotes, no wild speculation, simple facts and logical conclusions from those facts.

Are ye eyes blind to my sarcasm?

Ye seem to be blind to mine. You misspoke. I seized upon it.

Yes, they do say it's up to the players. When they say the answers are all there, they aren't lying. They're there for both sides, and that's where we choose. I can always make an Optimus Prime speech if you want me to elaborate.

So, where do they say it is up to the players, then? And the answers being there for two contradictory sides means there aren't any answers there at all.

 

[Sesc]

So, where do they say it is up to the players, then? And the answers being there for two contradictory sides means there aren't any answers there at all.

中川：ところで、セフィロスは今まで何人の女の子と付き合ったことがあるんですか？


野村：スゴイ質問だなぁ。考えたこともないですね。正直、僕は誰と誰が付き合っているとかっていうのは、どうでもいいんですよね。ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところは、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます。想像の余地があるもののほうが終わったあとに友達と話していて楽しいです し。たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。


「ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところ、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます」

"From what’s not already depicted in the games and film, interpret/imagine it as you like..."

「たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。

Then Nomura further says he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC.

I'm pretty sure that's the interview that all the Clerith fans are talking about.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

OWD said the dates/date mechanics aren't important, so neither is the Highwind scene.

The date mechanic is only applicable to the minigame. I believe Ryu put it best:

Here's the thing, though. HA and LA don't change the actual affection in the narrative. The affection value is a meaningless point value which decides the outcome of a minigame. It actually translates into their world than HP and MP do.

This is precisely what I mean by “does not affect the story”. It doesn't mean the Highwind scene is unimportant (something I never said). It means its point system does not translate into the narrative any more than other point systems and game mechanics like HP and MP.

The number of times it is referenced and actually pointed out by SE, labelled in fact one of the “most important moments” and included in summaries of the actual narrative attests to its importance.

You said that the date mechanics, and therefore the dates, aren't important

No, I said the affection values do not affect the narrative.

Aerith's feelings are also a part of the story and as such need to be addressed in the story. She loves Cloud. That's your set up. But "it affects diddly squat of the actual story." Because there are four outcomes? The Highwind scene has two outcomes. Not one. Which version you get depends on the date mechanics and how much you use her in combat.

You seem to have missed the point by a mile here. Your entire reply is a giant non sequitur.

My point is, if we are told Aeris is interested in Cloud, and thsi is a part of the narrative, then how does Cloud dating Barret make sense? How does that affection value translate into the narrative? What is its effect on the actual narrative? If you're going to claim that the date mechanic and the affection point value that governs it actually translate to real affection in the narrative, then you must account for ALL FOUR CANDIDATES. However, the narrative does not offer any legitimacy to the Barret date. That means, his affection points do not spill over into the actual narrative nor translate into any real, romantic interest. Therefore, Tifa's actual love for Cloud cannot possibly be dependent on whether or not her affection points are over or under 40. They hold no sway over the narrative, as the Barret date indicates.

If Cloud's love interest is truly optional and up to the player, and affection points hold actual narrative value, then that would mean Cloud legitimately engages in pedophilia and homosexuality within the narrative, and that the narrative would support that.

An offhand comment about what the scene is known for means that's the one that happened?

Ahh, but what I asked is why the event under the Highwind, which could be described in a myriad of ways, is known to the WRITER as the risque dialogue scene? Why is it synonymous with the HA version? Why call it something which it MAY or MAY NOT be? That is, it may or may not be risque.

The fact that the writer acknowledges only one version is telling in itself. A scene can't be optional if it's described as fact. He didn't say “oh you mean the one where you could get quite risque” or anything to that effect. It's a matter of fact comment: “the event under the ship, you mean the risque one?” Well, actually no. It could also mean the other one that's “apathetic”, but somehow this never occurs to the fucking writer? It's Nojima, not a casual viewer/player.

And his mind automatically goes to one place.

 

[Ryushikaze]

中川：ところで、セフィロスは今まで何人の女の子と付き合ったことがあるんですか？


野村：スゴイ質問だなぁ。考えたこともないですね。正直、僕は誰と誰が付き合っているとかっていうのは、どうでもいいんですよね。ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところは、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます。想像の余地があるもののほうが終わったあとに友達と話していて楽しいです し。たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。


「ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところ、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます」

"From what’s not already depicted in the games and film, interpret/imagine it as you like..."

「たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。

Then Nomura further says he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC.

I'm pretty sure that's the interview that all the Clerith fans are talking about.

I'd hoped they'd provide it themselves, but since Aerbear thanked the post, I'll assume it was what she referred to.

This interview well predates AC coming out, though.
It also says, I should point out, NOT that the LTD is up to player choice, but that for WHAT IS NOT ALREADY COVERED, you can imagine whatever you want.
As for 'I have no idea', it's very curious he went there, since he was asked about Sephiroth's love life, not theirs.
And while he doesn't have an idea about their relationship at that time, it would seem Nojima did. To Nojima, one thing was certain. Cloud and Tifa would be together, where they belong.
And as of 2006, It would seem Nomura had decided one of Tifa's roles in the world was as someone's beloved/lover. And they'd also decided Tifa and Cloud had a future.
Connect the dots, people.

 

[Splintered]

If Nomura ever gave a straight answer to anything, the world would implode upon itself.

I think the closest thing I've ever seen was "No, Namine has nothing to do with Kairi" which turned out to be bullshit.

I still think he's the best troll of Squeenix, and regularly goes onto forums pretending to be anonymous just to start flamewars.

 

[aerbear]

And for the record, no, I don't think you're arguing for Clerith here. Just against Cloti. So, we're cool for this?

I'm not arguing against Cloud/Tifa. I'm only arguing that they aren't canon.
If you like them together, that's okay with me!

I'd just like to ask when you witness Tifa crying?

It wasn't so much crying, but whining. That was maybe bad wording on my part.

Not to be rude or anything

I think you're being nice.

What? Infamous because of the risque line? I'm gonna go ahead and say I'm taking you mean the only reason people like it or care about is because some think Cloud and Tifa did the deed? If so, that's sort of offensive because I definitely didn't enjoy it solely for that purpose alone. :T Tell me that isn't what you meant, please?

I meant that it's what it's known for, because it's "suggestive." I don't think that's the reason it could be important. If you like those two, then it's very important to you. But some people only see that fade to black.

Have you seen the way anyone is treated on the internet?

That doesn't make it okay.

Much of it predates your 'aerbear hug' response.

Then I misunderstood what responses you were referring to.

No, many of these things were new requests, new demands, and even the very essay she reposted from elsewhere which contained these examples of disingenuous debating.

The rebuttal was about the Highwind scene, mostly. And that's nothing new.

But on this subject, there really aren't many contradictions. It's very consistent on this matter. And Anastar has literally said she has not said things she has been quoted as saying. She may be getting her point across badly, but that is leading to direct self contradiction.

She can't be expected to make perfect points. She's just giving her own. Nothing wrong with that.

Her

My bad, OneWingedDemon! Sorry.

So's Tidus coming back to life or not. One of those versions is still canon. Likewise Shadow dying. I hold that we can determine that one version of the Highwind scene is canon, favored by the other by the creators.

We know the canon ending is to bring Tidus back because of International + Last Mission - she's living with him, three months after X-2 ends. The same can't be said for the HA version. Nothing that happens after depends on the High Affection version. And just because the HA version is referenced the most and might be a favorite of the creators doesn't mean it's canon. If one of them came out and said they like Cloud and Aerith as a pairing the best, that wouldn't make Cloud and Aerith canon. It's all about the events in the story.

Nojima is a creator of the game.

He's one creater. You said creators. Do the other ones like this scene?

He was head writer.

He didn't write that scene.

He associates the highwind scene with Risque Dialogue. His mind defaults to the high version.

That makes it canon? Because that's what came to his mind first?

If someone asked him about the optional characters in FFVII, and he said "Oh, you mean Vincent?" Would this mean it isn't canon to get Yuffie, because she wasn't mentioned? This is only hypothetical, but do you understand where I'm going?

Yes, but your impression of Tifa doesn't actually resemble her all that much, truth be told. And Cloud does say that only Tifa's opinion matters.

My impression of her isn't in line with yours, but I didn't just come up with it. If that's how I see her, and that isn't how you see her, so be it.

You didn't piss me off. You just gave me additional information. And it's, as mentioned, fascinating.

Then I didn't mean to fascinate you.

So, please, give us some examples of the whining, then.

This will turn into bashing and I don't want to do that here.

No, I know you weren't saying she was with Reno, but that you think RENO would be better for her and help her 'grow up' is mind boggling.

Still isn't quite what I meant, but I'm glad your mind is boggled. Boggle away.

Fix it on their own. Couples have problems. They work through them.

With the help of kids?

And I'm saying that what you assert as 'favoring Aerith' really... doesn't. Even in the AUs, there's not much there.

Okay.

You don't have to. But you also don't have to let Shadow live or revive Tidus. But we can use surrounding information to determine which version happened. Same as we can do with the Highwind scene.

Mentioned this above ^.^

And if you don't want folks calling you delusional, make sure what you claim is in close agreements with the facts.

I make sure of it but it happens anyway, because some people are born douchebags.

Aerith was never causally linked with being a personal memory by Cloud. Why should we assume she is the personal memory when there is someone else in the game who has been associated, EXTREMELY HEAVILY with Cloud's memory.

We can assume she could be the personal memory because she is a part of their memories, including Clouds. Tifa is also associated with his memories because of their promise in the past and being her neighbor growing up. But neither is definite. He could be fighting for Zack or getting revenge for Nibelheim. He doesn't say.

So prove it. No quote mines, no twisting quotes, no wild speculation, simple facts and logical conclusions from those facts.

It's all about how you interpret the game. There is a way to view it where you will see what I see. But you see something else and that's okay.

Ye seem to be blind to mine. You misspoke. I seized upon it.

I haven't misspoken.

So, where do they say it is up to the players, then? And the answers being there for two contradictory sides means there aren't any answers there at all.

中川：ところで、セフィロスは今まで何人の女の子と付き合ったことがあるんですか？


野村：スゴイ質問だなぁ。考えたこともないですね。正直、僕は誰と誰が付き合っているとかっていうのは、どうでもいいんですよね。ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところは、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます。想像の余地があるもののほうが終わったあとに友達と話していて楽しいです し。たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。


「ゲームや映像で描 かれていないところ、好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます」

"From what’s not already depicted in the games and film, interpret/imagine it as you like..."

「たとえばクラウドとティファが「AC」までの２年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。

Then Nomura further says he doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC.

I'm pretty sure that's the interview that all the Clerith fans are talking about.

(Thank you, Sesc! I was looking for the original Japanese statements.)

You seem to have missed the point by a mile here. Your entire reply is a giant non sequitur.

Excuse my sarcasm, then.

My point is, if we are told Aeris is interested in Cloud, and thsi is a part of the narrative, then how does Cloud dating Barret make sense? How does that affection value translate into the narrative? What is its effect on the actual narrative? If you're going to claim that the date mechanic and the affection point value that governs it actually translate to real affection in the narrative, then you must account for ALL FOUR CANDIDATES. However, the narrative does not offer any legitimacy to the Barret date. That means, his affection points do not spill over into the actual narrative nor translate into any real, romantic interest. Therefore, Tifa's actual love for Cloud cannot possibly be dependent on whether or not her affection points are over or under 40. They hold no sway over the narrative, as the Barret date indicates.

I was mostly being sarcastic.

Anyway, I'm only saying that the High Affection and Low Affection versions of the Highwind scene don't affect any later event, from what we can see. And since there are two versions and they're optional, there's nothing to indicate which version canonically happens. I'm not going to believe it's canon just because there's nothing saying otherwise. That's a belief that belongs with "Well, you never said I couldn't take a giant dump on your lawn."

If Cloud's love interest is truly optional and up to the player, and affection points hold actual narrative value, then that would mean Cloud legitimately engages in pedophilia and homosexuality within the narrative, and that the narrative would support that.

I didn't mean that the person Cloud goes to the Gold Saucer with is the person that he likes. I was saying that you said the date mechanics don't have an affect, but they also play a part in which Highwind version you get, and to you the High Affection one is canon, and the affection rating supposedly determines if you get that scene.

 

[Vendel]

We know the canon ending is to bring Tidus back because of International + Last Mission - she's living with him, three months after X-2 ends. The same can't be said for the HA version.

Except that if you get the "default" ending of X-2 then Tie-dus doesn't come back. And this is reflected in the dialogue of last mission.


Also no matter what version of the HW scene you get three months after FFVII ends Cloud is living with Tifa.......

 

[Anastar]

One Winged Demon:

Did I say that Cloud rejects Tifa? Don't put words in my mouth, please.

I don't need to, you do it quite fine on your own. Unless this was another Anastar.

While the Low Affection Highwind scene allows Cloud to blatantly reject Tifa's affection, there is no place in the game where Cloud can reject Aerith's affection. Therefore, while it is optional for Cloud to love Tifa, it is non-optional for Cloud to love Aerith. Even if he optionally falls in love with Tifa, too, he will continue to love Aerith.

[/QUOTE]
Actually, my essay doesn't say that I said that. Note the parts that I've highlighted from my essay:

Some Clerith people see this as indication that who Cloud loves is up to interpretation in the game and that it is dependent on choices made by the player. However, other Clerith people see the love between Cloud and Aerith as being non-optional. They say this because regardless of the choices made during the game, several things are non-optional:

a.) It is non-optional for Cloud to say at the end of the game that he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. Clerith people believe that Cloud says this because he loves Aerith and wants to be with her again.
b.) The CloudxAerith date is the default date, as stated in FFVII Dismantled and the FFVII UO:

1. In Aerith[FONT=&quot]�[/FONT]s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.
2. In the gondola, the line [FONT=&quot]�[/FONT]I[FONT=&quot]�[/FONT]m searching for you[FONT=&quot]�[/FONT] has deep meaning. (you understand, right?)
~FFVII Dismantled, page 189

This is the payment she suggests when Cloud says that it'll cost her to hire him to be her bodyguard. This line shows the composed and mischievous side of her. It may be because of this promise that it's easier to have Aerith be the other party in Cloud's date when they're in the Gold Saucer. ~pg. 30, FFVII Ultimania Omega

c.) It is non-optional for Cloud to accept the date as payment for being Aerith's bodyguard.
d.) It is non-optional for Cloud to declare that he's Aerith's bodyguard in front of Tifa.
e.) It is non-optional for Cloud to show a great deal of caring for Aerith during the game.

The player cannot change these things no matter how much the player tries to make Cloud be mean to Aerith. While the Low Affection Highwind scene allows Cloud to blatantly reject Tifa's affection, there is no place in the game where Cloud can reject Aerith's affection. Therefore, while it is optional for Cloud to love Tifa, it is non-optional for Cloud to love Aerith. Even if he optionally falls in love with Tifa, too, he will continue to love Aerith.

I said that SOME Clerith people think that who Cloud loves is open to interpretation, which I've given as my own view several times in this thread. I then say that OTHER Clerith people think it's optional for Cloud to reject Tifa.

I was giving the views of more than one person, since some Clerith people disagree with me on this point. What have I said is my own stance in this thread? I believe I've said that I think that who Cloud loves is up to interpretation.

If Tifa's feelings for Cloud are never optional, then Aerith's feelings for Cloud are never optional

In other news the sky is blue and water is wet. Aeris wants to bone Cloud, Cloud just doesn't give a fuck. That's why it's a love triangle, because both ladies want in his pants

Interesting - we both made similar assumptions. You thought that I thought the same as other Clerith people about the Low Affection scene, and I thought you thought the same as other Cloti people who think that Aerith truly loves Zack instead of Cloud.

But a question. How do you know that Cloud doesn't give a fuck about how Aerith feels? Seems to me that's your interpretation, not fact.

SE does not say Tifa's feelings are optional. It seems you have conveniently forgotten that the date mechanic can swing Cloud in FOUR directions, not one, not two. Four.

True - but Barret's never said to be part of the Love Triangle. Only Aerith and Tifa are. Tifa's profile in the 10th AU says that Aerith and Tifa are love rivals, and the FFVII Game Manual says that Aerith is "more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa". I've never heard SE refer to Barret as part of the Love Triangle.

That's because the affection rating is only there for an element of interactivity and affects diddly squat of the actual story.

And where was that stated by SE?

I gave you two quotes where SE said that the conversation between Cloud and Tifa changes according to Tifa's affection level with Cloud. If SE wanted Cloti to be canon, why did SE make it optional for Cloud and Tifa to confess feelings of love for one another?

Once again, there's never any actual confirmation that Cloud loves Tifa after the HW scene takes place, so you can't assume the HA version is canon.

This is why it's not CANON that Barret too can have feelings for Cloud.

And that's why SE never says that Barret's part of the Love Triangle.

FFS, they are not saying the line isn't important. He's responding to the “that's quite mature for an FF game” comment. Stop fucking divorcing everything from context. Even with that risque line, they didn't think it would become a point of discussion in terms of how fucking mature it is. Especially in a game where they make mentions of beastiality, homosexuality, whorehouses, etc.

Seems to me that you're changing the context. It says that they never thought the LINE would be so important, not how risque it is. If you ask me, that means they weren't too concerned about what it's supposed to mean or its impact on the story.

However, you have once again ignored the point. I'm going to repost:

Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue?

Explain to me why Nojima equates the EVENT that happened with only ONE version?
WHY IS THE HIGHWIND SCENE SYNONYMOUS WITH THE HA VERSION?

(Edit for clarification Frankly, I think it's more significant that Nojima doesn't think the line is important. But he probably identifies it that way because it's an easier way to refer to that scene, since everybody knows that line. We all know that Cloud can get in the hot tub with Mukki, but if Nojima mentioned the Honeybee Inn by saying, "Oh, you mean the scene where he gets in the not tub with Mukki?", would that mean it was canon?(/Edit)

And next time you respond to me, knock it off with the swearing and accusations, or I won't even answer you.

===============
Not sure who these quotes are from

The LA version makes more sense to me because it shows they have no romantic interest in each other. It's not that they hate one another - they just have no romantic interest in each other.

Even if for some reason you don't think Cloud has romantic interest in Tifa, how in the heck can you say Tifa doesn't have interest in Cloud?

Because the Date Mechanics can put her affection level for Cloud as low a zero.

Why would she ask a sleeping Cloud if he loved her in CoT?

And how she feels in CoT two years after the game shows how she felt at the time of the HW scene?

Actually, it's more logical to me that the LA version happened if she asks Cloud that in CoT, since she apparently doesn't know how he feels.

Why is Tifa worried about their relationship instead of their friendship?

The word "relationship" can't be talking about a friendship?

I see that as making more sense because I never see Cloud displaying romantic interest in Tifa after the HW scene (or during or before, for that matter). They seem to be living together as friends, rather than as lovers.

You keep saying "I don't see it with C/T" and "I do see it with C/A". Did it never occur to you that it's because that is what you want to see?

And I could ask you the same thing in reverse. Is the only reason you think Cloud loves Tifa and not Aerith because that's what you want to see?

That's supported by things such as Tifa in CoT saying that the family is made up of friends,

I addressed this pages ago but let me repeat myself.

Sorry - I didn't see your post about this.

FFS Tifa does not see Cloud and Marlene (and later Denzel) as a "family of friends". I don't know what is so hard to figure out that as Barret is leaving Tifa is reminiscing about how she had always managed to get by. She got by with a little help from her friends (AVALANCHE). This is her friends you could call a family (similar to her Dissidia profile). And at that moment the last one was leaving. And what was left is what would be the start of the 7th heaven family. Or the "real family" Tifa is so worried about throughout CoT and AC. The one that is mentioned multiple times in the Ultimania.

In the first place, Tifa first calls them a family when Barret's leaving. It's AFTER Barret leaves that Tifa says the family is made up of friends:

[FONT=&quot]Barret turned round and shouted, �Do your best!� His voice was a little shaky.

�Unite the family�s strength and keep at it!�

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn�t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family.[/FONT]

According to CoT, Tifa wonders if they became a real family after Denzel appears:

Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.

Doesn't sound to me like she knows they're a real family. It seems to me that she's wondering about it, which means she's uncertain. That gets repeated in this line:

Of course, there was no answer. I only heard the sound of him sleeping. I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family.

Why doesn't Tifa know for sure whether Cloud's really part of the family if they are a "real family"?

And as for the quotes from the Ultimania about "real family", I can't find them. I'd like to see them again before commenting on them, so would you please quote them here?

Marlene in CoT being the one to invite Cloud into the family,

I don't think it's Marlene's decision to make.

I didn't say it was Marlene's decision to make. Look at where she invites him into the family again:

[FONT=&quot]�A family.� (Tifa)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]�Yeah.� (Marlene)[/FONT]

Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa[FONT=&quot]�s murmur.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]�I�ll put Cloud in our family too.� (Marlene)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]�I appreciate that.� (Cloud)[/FONT]

After Cloud thanked Marlene[FONT=&quot]�s innocent offer with his serious face, he looked[/FONT] at Tifa. Tifa nodded a little. Would there be various problems arising after this? However, Tifa decided that she whould stop worrying about the relationship between the two of them.

Why does Marlene thinks she's part of the family before Cloud is part of the family? She's the one inviting Cloud into it, so Marlene must think that Tifa is part of the family of Barret and Marlene, or that Marlene and Tifa are family. Marlene has to invite him into it.

a JP magazine article saying that Cloud and Tifa were "more than friends, less than lovers" (http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...anlovers-2.png),

So what? Some random Japanese magazine article has exactly zero bearing on the story.

If you say so.

Cloud and Tifa having separate bedrooms,

If they have separate bedrooms we haven't seen them. We have seen the children's room and Cloud's office.

We've seen a bed in what you're calling Cloud's "office". Offices don't usually have beds in them. At one point in the story, Tifa also tells Cloud to drink in "your room":


[FONT=&quot]�[/FONT]I want to drink alone.[FONT=&quot]�[/FONT]

Hearing that, Tifa lost control and said, [FONT=&quot]�[/FONT]Then drink in your room.[FONT=&quot]�[/FONT]


"Your room" usually refers to someone's bedroom, doesn't it? Plus, Cloud keeps personal photos on the wall over the bed and on the desk in that room. Looks like his room to me.

CoT saying that Tifa always slept with Marlene before Denzel moved in, etc. I could go on, but I think that's enough to give the idea.

Except this statement was made the night before Barret left. Which is one week after 7th heaven opens. Denzel doesn't arrive on the scene until many months later.

So all this tells us is that until the time Barret left Marlene was sleeping with Tifa. It doesn't tell us when this stopped.

But why is it happening in the first place if Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship? Wouldn't they be sleeping with one another instead of Tifa sleeping with Marlene?

========

Note: Sorry, but that's all I have time for tonight. Discord sent me more questions to respond to in PM, but I'll have to answer them tomorrow.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean you. My bad.

You're forgiven!

I'm not trying to start a Tifa thing, though. I was just responding to somebody Sorry.

No, no. I know you just stated your own opinion about her, and that's fine. I'd still appreciate if you would reply to that post I made.

But why is it happening in the first place if Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship? Wouldn't they be sleeping with one another instead of Tifa sleeping with Marlene?

Is that the only thing that would prove that they are in love? It doesn't really matter though, since it's been stated that they have feelings for eachother, and have a relationship.

 

[Vendel]

===============
Not sure who these quotes are from

*raises hand*

Because the Date Mechanics can put her affection level for Cloud as low a zero.

So? What does a dating mini-game with arbitrary mechanics have to do with the story of FFVII or if Tifa loves Cloud? Getting Barret or Yuffie doesn't affect the lifestream sequence for example.

And how she feels in CoT two years after the game shows how she felt at the time of the HW scene?

Actually, it's more logical to me that the LA version happened if she asks Cloud that in CoT, since she apparently doesn't know how he feels.

So wait...you say the LA one means they don't love each other and that makes sense to you. I think you even said somewhere they "confirm that they don't love each other romantically". Then you turn around and say Tifa doesn't know how Cloud feels when she ask him if he loves her? I thought that was settled under the HW for you? So why is she asking?

Ignoring the fact that Tifa is troubled by Cloud's growing distant at that point in the story. And no amount of love confessions before that would make a difference to that scene.

The word "relationship" can't be talking about a friendship?

If it's about C/T then it must mean friendship right? Unless it means Cloud is Tifa's son of course.

And I could ask you the same thing in reverse. Is the only reason you think Cloud loves Tifa and not Aerith because that's what you want to see?

What I want to see is a crapper made out of solid gold in my bathroom. What I do see is SE being very straightforward about who Cloud is in a relationship with.

Sorry - I didn't see your post about this.

I forgive you.

In the first place, Tifa first calls them a family when Barret's leaving. It's AFTER Barret leaves that Tifa says the family is made up of friends:

[FONT=&quot]Barret turned round and shouted, �Do your best!� His voice was a little shaky.

�Unite the family�s strength and keep at it!�

Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn�t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.

Maybe you could call that family. We just had to keep the family together and do our best. Tifa thought she could get over anything while being with friends that she could call her family.[/FONT]

Thank you for posting that and supporting my point.

According to CoT, Tifa wonders if they became a real family after Denzel appears:

Tifa wondered if they became a real family after Denzel appeared. Cloud was clearly taking less jobs. At night, he would always make sure he had time to spend with the children. The silly little conversations he had with Tifa were also back.

Doesn't sound to me like she knows they're a real family. It seems to me that she's wondering about it, which means she's uncertain. That gets repeated in this line:

Of course, there was no answer. I only heard the sound of him sleeping. I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family.

Why doesn't Tifa know for sure whether Cloud's really part of the family if they are a "real family"?

Answer me this. Why is Tifa so worried about the four of them being a "real family" if they are just a "family of friends"?

Where do we see Tifa worrying if Vincent is a part of her "real" family?

And now that I think about it, why doesn't Denzel know the rest of his family in AC/C? Tifa has to tell them they are their friends. Why didn't she say "oh that's the rest of your family silly"?

Seems to me that there is a clear distinction between "friends" and "family".

I didn't say it was Marlene's decision to make. Look at where she invites him into the family again:

Well you sure made it seem important.

Why does Marlene thinks she's part of the family before Cloud is part of the family?

Why does it matter?

She's the one inviting Cloud into it, so Marlene must think that Tifa is part of the family of Barret and Marlene, or that Marlene and Tifa are family. Marlene has to invite him into it.

Again why do Marlene's thought on the matter, matter?

It's Marlene being cute. It has no bearing on the family dynamic.

If you say so.

I don't have to prove that it is meaningless. That's a given. You should let us know why it is important. But then we already know the answer to that don't we? Because anything that is slightly anti-C/T is acceptable right? While pro-C/T material has to be dissected and run though multiple filters to glean the meaning.

We've seen a bed in what you're calling Cloud's "office".

Except that it is called Cloud's office. Not his bedroom. Again reading and not pictures.

Offices don't usually have beds in them.

And motorcycles don't normally have half a dozen swords shoved in them.

At one point in the story, Tifa also tells Cloud to drink in "your room":

"Your room" usually refers to someone's bedroom, doesn't it?

Only if it's about Cloud and Tifa not sharing a room then of course it does. Unless of course one were to have an office....

Plus, Cloud keeps personal photos on the wall over the bed and on the desk in that room. Looks like his room to me.

He has personal photos in his office? *gasp*

But why is it happening in the first place if Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship? Wouldn't they be sleeping with one another instead of Tifa sleeping with Marlene?

Well Marlene wasn't there under the Highwind.....

And we are not told what the sleeping arrangements were between C/T from the end of the game until they pick up Marlene. It's not really important. Except for the fact that they didn't have a roof over their heads until they rebuilt 7th heaven.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Against my better judgment, I'm going to respond to something Anastar has said (Que, please PM it to her to make sure she gets it), but not under any pretense of taking further part in a debate with her. I just want to communicate to her why she's making herself impossible to actually debate with.

Now, once again - if the HA HW scene is canon, and that's the reason SE uses only the HA HW scene picture in their story summaries, then how come SE also says in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO that the HA scene diverges into two conditions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud? Like I said to OWD - are your quotes more valid than my quotes?

...

My last point: you asked me what would make me think the HA version (or any optional version) is canon. I told you that I would consider it canon if 1) one version is canonized by a later event - that is, something happens later which indicates that only one version could possibly have happened, or 2) if SE blatantly says that one version is canon.

You said here yourself that your criteria for determining the canon outcome of a player-influenced event (thank you, by the way, for finally answering my question; literally 16 pages later) could be met by SE blatantly saying that one version happened. Even if you choose to claim that the FF U20 Scenario and FFVII UO are inconclusive because they acknowledge the existence of both versions of the scene, the story summary from the 10th AU still couldn't be more blatant in saying that the high affection scene happened (seriously, the book mentions the affection mechanic and the low version absolutely not at all).

And, yet, despite having said you would acknowledge a blatant statement, you're not doing so. Because you claim that some books acknowledging the existence of both versions disqualifies a statement from another book that one version in particular happened. Really, more than just one other book since the Memorial Album goes with the high affection scene only, and since it was selected as one of the four Impressive Scenes in the U20.

So, the new question I have for you is: What the fuck? What's the standard you need met now? A blatant statement is no longer enough -- you've shifted the goalpost beyond the bleachers and into the goddamn sky, because at this point you're basically requiring that SE somehow time travel into the past to remove any prior acknowledgment of the non-canon version of events.

Really, that's your argument that the 10th AU is unreliable: if SE has ever at any point acknowledged the existence of both versions of the Highwind scene, then they can't ever identify one version as canon.

Yes? No?

If that's not the claim you're making, then you need to clarify your position in a hurry.

Don't get me wrong: if there were multiple passages that contradicted each other, I'd be right there with you in saying that the matter is inconclusive. That's the reason it's so difficult to pinpoint a canon outcome for the Gold Saucer date, after all.

By your own claim, however, there's no contradiction with the Highwind quotes since you say that any reference to the sharing and confirming of feelings could be speaking of either version. If that were true, and even if we pretended the Memorial Album and Impressive Scenes pages did not exist, we'd be left with a lot of quotes that could indicate either version, and then one that is specific.

The specific one would be enough, wouldn't it? You said a blatant statement would be enough to confirm an optional outcome as concrete, and yet you're saying it isn't enough in this case. How many times would it need to be said then? And does confirming an outcome for the Highwind scene in one official source not shine any light on the implications of the other quotes, those that you say could be ambiguous?

If you're looking for SE to use the term "canon," that just isn't going to happen. Assuming they even cared half as much as fans do (and the obscene number and nature of contradictions in the Compilation would suggest that they do not; the multiple depictions of the Nibelheim massacre being the best example of this), they probably still wouldn't use that word.

Also, seriously: you can't pretend the story summary from the 10th AU is irrelevant when, in literally the same post, you attribute unparalleled significance to an unverifiable interpretation of an image of Aerith standing in a flower field, which has already long since been retconned away by ACC anyway.

We know the canon ending is to bring Tidus back because of International + Last Mission - she's living with him, three months after X-2 ends. The same can't be said for the HA version. Nothing that happens after depends on the High Affection version. And just because the HA version is referenced the most and might be a favorite of the creators doesn't mean it's canon. If one of them came out and said they like Cloud and Aerith as a pairing the best, that wouldn't make Cloud and Aerith canon. It's all about the events in the story.

...

Mentioned this above ^.^

Not going to address anything about Shadow, though? Also, Vendel's point is correct that the Last Mission script changes based on whether you fulfilled the requirements to resurrect Tidus.

What does it say about Cloud and Aerith? Just curious.

忘れられない（罪の意識）?

"Unable to forget (sense of guilt)?"

I don't think the magazine is seen to be canon but wouldn't SE say that the magazine reported something untrue if they saw it?

No. When have they ever done such things? They didn't issue a press release correcting a pre-release magazine that said Tifa was running an orphanage in AC.

Even when EGM claimed that a FFVII remake was in development in its Rumor Mill section like six years ago, they only responded that this wasn't true when directly asked by IGN.

Also, the magazine in question didn't report that Cloud and Tifa were "more than friends, less than lovers." It speculated. There was a question mark. There was even a question mark after Aerith's name on her picture for goodness sake:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/Morethanfriendslessthanlovers-2.png

Why was this magazine ever considered relevant?

 

[Dashell]

Ariadne, Anastar has answered this... sorta. But you won't like the answer... I don't think I like it either, but she has pointed out that square has said Aerith's date is default. She wants them to say, "The high affection version happened." in those words. She doesn't want it to be in a story summary, or on a page of important scenes, or for Nojima to related the scene to risque dialogue. She wants them to say "The high affection scene is canon" or "the high affection scene happened." just like they said, "the default date is Aerith." Even though they've NEVER done this before, that's what she wants... in fact I think because they HAVE never done it before is why she wants it