The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Ryushikaze]

(So many posts... I guess I should cry right now while I'm trying to answer this... that's a lot to read!!)

Claim: The quotes about the Highwind Scene are not equivocal.
So, okay, we'll do it all again.
* The feelings Cloud and Tifa convey under the Highwind are portrayed as:
---> matching
---> mutual
---> being confirmed
* The feelings are said to be shared in either version

Could you please provide the quotation for this, actually?

* The Ultimania says that those feelings are feelings of mutual desire for each other in the High Version
* The Love-Page confirms that
* The Ultimania states that the conversation ends apathetic in the Low Version
I guess we all know the Highwind quotes.
So it was said that mutual feelings are shared and that they match; in addition, it was also said that these feelings are of mutual desire for each other in the High Version.
So if these feelings are only feelings of love in the High Version, the feelings in the Low Version are likely not since the conversation ends apathetic.
Also, remember that the feelings were only said to be of love in the High Version.

Actually, it is not said. It is said that feelings are shared strongly and earnestly only in one version. They are said to be mutually confirmed love without reference to any specific version.
Pedantry, but important pedantry.

When the Ultimania shows a short text under the High Version picture, the text just says they share undefined feelings; however, the nature of the feelings in the High Version is again clarified as being those of love by the headline itself.
So if we look again at the Highwind quotes saying they conveyed matching feelings for each other, you can't be sure weither version is adressed or if there was a certain version adressed.
I call this equivocal.

You will require a citation stating that "* The feelings are said to be shared in either version" to properly support this conclusion, however, and deal with the fact that the apathetic conversation prohibits sharing of feelings because it would lack feeling by definition.

Claim: Rosa didn't ever confirm her love towards Cecil using the word "love", so her situation is comparable to FFVII's situation.

Actually, I said that you didn't require use of that word, as a previous post of yours had implied.

Didn't they marry later? I also believe Kain said something like giving up on Rosa... and they were depicted together in some Amano artworks, I think. I didn't play the game, so I can't tell...

Cecil and Rosa were never depicted together in Amano Art until 17 years after the original game came out, and the piece also depicted their son.
Further, Amano art doesn't make you canon, and being canon doesn't require Amano art.

also, wasn't she a White Mage? Then she fits quite well into the pattern of other Final Fantasies, I think, though this doesn't make anything official. While the lover was always a strong physical fighter, the beloved heroine was always a strong magical fighter, and I think there was no exception yet.

FFVI. Locke's a Thief, Celes is one of your strongest physical characters.
Likewise, Rosa holds her own in physical damage with a bow.

This would make Kain a possible choice, though... however, is there any official statement that says that Cecil and Rosa are in love?

To my knowledge, no. Nothing explicitly declares them to be in love. All the evidence points to this, and it is overwhelming evidence, but nothing declares it.
But we don't need to be told things to know they are true, like knowing that their son was almost certainly conceived before they were married.

Claim: Every group member has undying feelings for Aerith and Cloud's feelings are nothing special.
I guess there is a double no.
First no: Though it was said that every member carries feelings for Aerith inside, Cloud was said to carry his own undying feelings towards her in his heart. So he feels feelings towards Aerith like the rest of the group, but those feelings differ from the rest.

No one has said they are nothing special. We're just wondering why the rather obvious conclusion of the guilt which is a major obstacle in the film and which has been directly associated with Aerith is being ignored here.

Second no: The feelings of the group are not undying. They are said to carry feelings towards her; however, only Cloud's feelings are said to be undying.

Yes, but Undying just means that time doesn't erase them. Any feeling can be undying. Undying love, hate, guilt, hunger, mania, glee, etc. Undying torments, undying agony, undying respect, undying Galuf- okay, now I'm being silly. The point is, undying can refer to anything, and it doesn't mean it can't be ended.

Claim: Tifa's character is bright and optimistic.
Doesn't this contradict her character?
She is called a wimp by Barret at one point,

As a contrast to her usual self.

she constantly worries about anything (mostly Cloud),

Worrying and hoping for the best aren't mutually exclusive. Even though she worries about Cloud, she can also believe in him for certain. She was expecting him to be 'excellent' when he came back. She assumes the best in people as a rule. Doesn't mean you're oblivious to the bad things that can happen, it just means you look and hope towards the better.

it's said she only tries to act bright and optimistic because she wants to conceal her "weak side" and her constant pessimistic worrying, and so on.

Could you please cite this?

And also, Barret says that - if Tifa doesn't work - she will drown in worries and then she won't do anything but that.

Actually, he said 'think about all sorts of things and won't be able to do anything' which is notable different.

Claim: The DoC manual isn't accurate by saying Cloud is an Ex-Soldier.
However, some versions on AC say so. ("You're still fighting as good as back at the time when you were in SOLDIER.")
Also, they likely mean his fantasy memory about that.

Um, Rufus is full of shit.
Cloud called him on that. The DOC Manual is wrong when it calls Cloud Ex-SOLDIER. Just as Rufus was when he said it to try and stroke Cloud's ego. Rufus knew he was lying. The manual appears to be just wrong on that and a few other things.

True, we don't see evidence of Ifalna visiting Aerith. But in the Temple of the Ancients, one was able to spiritually manifest itself there.

That spirit, and those of the Gi, had refused to go to the lifestream in the first place, had remained anchored in the world out of their strong will of duty and hatred respectively.

Actually, I don't remember Aerith being able to see Ifalna even after she came to the Lifestream. So, where do the Cetra really go after death? I'm curious about it. Maybe that's somewhere beyond the Lifestream. Since Aerith is only half of a Cetra, she can only go halfway. Just a theory, nonetheless.

Fact is, Aerith already did it. What's to stop her from doing it again?

Cetra go to the Lifestream, same as everyone else.
As for what's stopping Aerith from doing it again? The same thing that stops Sephiroth from putting out new remnants each weak. It's not easy to do. If she could do it, she would have taken steps to have aided the party in one year's time which was an even larger crisis to the planet and the Lifestream.

Sure they did. Because Tifa loves Cloud, so for the feelings to be mutual, Cloud must also feel love for Tifa. The only feeling they could share in the HW scene is love.
But, they could also share an apathetic night if the affection is low, from the date mechanism?

That would be the night, not the feelings, that were apathetic. The apathetic night, the apathetic conversation would be one without feelings.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Um, Rufus is full of shit.
Cloud called him on that. The DOC Manual is wrong when it calls Cloud Ex-SOLDIER. Just as Rufus was when he said it to try and stroke Cloud's ego. Rufus knew he was lying. The manual appears to be just wrong on that and a few other things.

I find it amusing that Rufus's quote is being used to support the DoC manual's inaccuracy. One is an in-game/movie character that had NO WAY of knowing that Cloud wasn't ACTUALLY a SOLDIER. I don't recall Cloud making that revelation to the Turks. "Look, guys, I know I've been whomping your asses claiming to be a SOLDIER and wearing a SOLDIER uniform and actually having Jenova cells infused with me giving me the build of a SOLDIER, but really, it was just an illusion my fractured mind formed. So really, I'm not a SOLDIER, thought you'd want to know." I mean...WTF... ?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

I don't think so. Love for a person goes on even if said person was dead. How much more if you could actually see the person in your *dreams* or a *suspended reality*.
Death isn't the end of everything. Death doesn't mean that love has to stop or cannot continue. Barret and Dyne remained single even though their wives had died, same goes for Elmyra. Why is it not possible for Cloud to continue loving Aerith?

Love can continue, definitely. But not a romantic relationship with a dead person.

I am not saying that Cloud can't move on with Tifa. He can. Maybe he will after ACC, though I did not see that in DoC. But it does not necessitate Cloud to abandon feelings of love for Aerith just because they can't touch.

Cloud already moved on with Tifa...
Sharing mutual feelings, moving in with her, raising children, running a business together, admitting you will be there for her, and that you have her different than before, isn't enough?

This i cannot grasp completely. There are no specifics which merit the response from the girl. Unless we put assumptions in the event.
And from what I remember, the promise was mentioned, but Cloud claimed he forgot it. He only agreed to help them because of the money. Even if the words "childhood friends" were said in the dialogue, Cloud didn't act the part.
So, from these, I conclude that the girl was kind of questioning/mocking the claim that they were childhood friends.
This is only the start of the game though.

We aren't sure if she's talking about THAT scene.
But I'm leaving this now.

Like I said, they were on a mission. Time is of the essence. Barret calling them out on it may be because he wanted to get the mission done without being too late.

Tifa: "...Scary... huh."
Cloud: "Too late to be saying that now. Why'd you come along anyway?"
Tifa: "Because..."
Barret: "Hey you two! There ain't no time for that!"

Time for what, exactly?

Even if Aerith lives on in the heart of all of her friends, only Cloud is able to see her because her spirit is with him always. Yes, her friends remember her, but it is Cloud that her spirit is with.

"Showing up in front of people feeling pained and confused,
Her figure seems like a loving mother."

"Suffering from an attack of Geostigma, Cloud strayed into the labyrinth of his heart. Aerith wants to take away the burden on his mind, and she greets him with a tender, teasing voice."

This is the reason why Aerith even shows up in AC/C. She will not continue to talk with him in his dreams for the rest of his life. Aerith just lives on, as a memory. It's been explained already.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Claim: Tifa's bright and optimistic side is just a facette of her real character.
I agree, but I am a little confused about the statement though.
She is mostly seen not to be bright and optimistic but worried and pessimistic; there are also times she tries to look bright and optimistic.
But if that's only one facet of her character, and thinking of the fact that she acts otherwise most of the time, is it okay to say she is "bright and optimistic" if that is just one facet about her and when she acts differently most of the time...?

Claim: The time Barret called Tifa a wimp was post-FFVII.
While I agree that it was surely a horrible time for her, it didn't take place after FFVII. It takes place while Tifa encounters a mako-damaged Cloud in a wheelchair.

Claim: It's only said that mutual feelings of love are shared in the High Version.
It was said that Cloud and Tifa confirm undefined mutual feelings without mentioning either version.
Then, it was said that those feelings are of love in the High Version.
It wasn't said that feelings were confirmed in the High Version only, but that those were feelings of love in the High Version only.Furthermore, there was no single quote saying that there were not feelings confirmed in the Low Version; in fact, the quote about "sharing feelings" applied to both versions. Also, a conversation being "apathetic" doesn't necessarily mean that no feelings were conveyed at all.

I also think all existing Highwind quotes were posted in here already. Do I really have to post them anew though we all already know what they say since they've been debated for so long...?

Claim: Celes is a physical fighter.
Though I first thought she was a magical fighter, I have to say that she has all-around stats. Doesn't make her a physical fighter though.
Also, Rosa, (Maria), Rinoa, Garnet, Yuna, (Penelo), and likely Serah and Stella, are/will be mages.

Claim: Cloud's feelings are defined to be guilt and nothing else.
Wait. You are saying that Cloud only feels guilt and nothing else and that there is no single other facet to that?
He can only feel guilt of the death of a person if he holds the person dear. The dearer the person, the stronger the guilt. So, Aerith was important to Cloud, and they were certainly good friends and maybe even lovers. The thing asked for is the degree of the dearness - something that isn't clarified until now officially.
So yes, these feelings are likely of guilt, but the thing asked for is if they are caused by romantic love or not.

Claim: Undying can refer to anything.
True. I think I didn't say something about the special-ness of the "undying" feelings, did I?

Claim: There was no quote provided saying that Tifa only tries to act bright to conceal her weakness.
The quote was like this:
"Contrary to her lively demeanor she reveals outwardly, she is a quiet introvert and carries many worries with her. To not realize this weakness, she exaggerates in forcing herself to act cheerful."
Something like this.

Claim: It's unproper that Rufus lines were used to support the manual's inaccuracy.
My point was that the word "Ex-SOLDIER" was used before in the story and that the DoC manual maybe referred to that.
There are many contradictions in the game and the sequels, so I think it's okay...?

Claim: Cloud wanting to start a life with Tifa different than before means something romantic.
To be honest, couldn't he just mean that he wants to start a normal life?
Before, he only had a life full of battles, and he states himself that he wants to have a "normal" life now. So a life "different" from before - couldn't it just mean that? Honestly, there is nothing stating that his words are meant to be romantic.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

So yes, these feelings are likely of guilt, but the thing asked for is if they are caused by romantic love or not.

....Or because she died right infront of him?

"But... I let you die." -Cloud, AC/C

 

[Lady Lifestream]

[FONT=#7D1A4D]....Or because she died right infront of him?

"But... I let you die." -Cloud, AC/C [/FONT]

Again.
We don't know if he feels sorrow about her death and not protecting her because of romantic love towards her or just because of friendship.
We know that he feels guilt about not being able to protect her though.
I guess I should have made my post clearer.
I asked for the reason of his sorrow, not his guilt.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

I asked for the reason of his sorrow, not his guilt.

Because.. she's dead?
I could ask you the same question. What is the reason for his sorrow?

 

[Lady Lifestream]

[FONT=#7D1A4D]I could ask you the same question. What is the reason for his sorrow? [/FONT]

How can I tell if it's not clearly stated?
Don't say you would like to hear my opinion. My opinion is my own interpretation of things, something that has no direct official source. And something that doesn't fit into a debate since my own opinion is undebatable and will only be changed by official sources.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Claim: The time Barret called Tifa a wimp was post-FFVII.
While I agree that it was surely a horrible time for her, it didn't take place after FFVII. It takes place while Tifa encounters a mako-damaged Cloud in a wheelchair.

I think you misread someone there. We know when it takes place. We also know he says it's not like her.

Claim: It's only said that mutual feelings of love are shared in the High Version.
It was said that Cloud and Tifa confirm undefined mutual feelings without mentioning either version.
Then, it was said that those feelings are of love in the High Version.

Which particular quote are you taking that the feelings of love are only in the high version, please?

It wasn't said that feelings were confirmed in the High Version only, but that those were feelings of love in the High Version only.

No, I do believe what is said is that IF the affection is high, feelings are shared. But again, we know, quite factually, that feelings are shared.
And again, you're ignoring that we are told, rather point blank, that feelings of love are confirmed, without reference to a version.

Furthermore, there was no single quote saying that there were not feelings confirmed in the Low Version; in fact, the quote about "sharing feelings" applied to both versions.

Which quote is this, please? There are numerous ones. Please specify on this account.

Also, a conversation being "apathetic" doesn't necessarily mean that no feelings were conveyed at all.

Somewhat by definition it does.
ap·a·thy   [ap-uh-thee] Show IPA
noun, plural -thies.
1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.
2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

ap·a·thet·ic   [ap-uh-thet-ik]
adjective
1. having or showing little or no emotion: apathetic behavior.
2. not interested or concerned; indifferent or unresponsive: an apathetic audience.

I also think all existing Highwind quotes were posted in here already. Do I really have to post them anew though we all already know what they say since they've been debated for so long...?

More clearly indicating which one you are referring to would help matters, even if it is merely a citation rather than a quotation.

Claim: Celes is a physical fighter.
Though I first thought she was a magical fighter, I have to say that she has all-around stats. Doesn't make her a physical fighter though.

She wields the heaviest weapons and wears all heavy armors. Locke has lesser access to heavy weapons and armor than she does.

Also, Rosa, (Maria), Rinoa, Garnet, Yuna, (Penelo), and likely Serah and Stella, are/will be mages.

Rosa is an Archer. Serah also an Archer. Everyone in FF13 can cast magic. Everyone in FF7, and 8 can cast magic.
Apart from casting magic, you have one
Archer/White mage- Rosa
Heavy Knight/ Red Mage- Celes
Resistance Leader and later inheritor of magic- Rinoa
Summoner/ White Mage- Garnet.
Another Summoner/ White Mager- Yuna.
A dancer- Penelo.
And if we must include Serah- she is an Archer as well, with magic abilities being ubiquitous among the player characters.
But you know who we also have?
A Summoner/black and white mage- Rydia.
A pure white mage- Porom
A magic halfbreed black mage- Tina/Terra
A Blue mage- Quistis
A, well, slot mage for lack of a better term- Selphie
A Summoner/ White Mage- Eiko
A Black Mage- Lulu
All of whom did NOT get with the main character.
Being magically inclined does not indicate you are destined for romance. Additionally, in three examples, the male of the pair- Locke, Zidane, and Vaan- are thieves, not heavy physical fighters. In FF13, Snow is not the main character, and will not be in the game Serah will be one in.
Stella is just not even worth discussing, BTW

Claim: Cloud's feelings are defined to be guilt and nothing else.
Wait. You are saying that Cloud only feels guilt and nothing else and that there is no single other facet to that?

No. We are saying that is most likely what those undying feelings are.

He can only feel guilt of the death of a person if he holds the person dear. The dearer the person, the stronger the guilt. So, Aerith was important to Cloud, and they were certainly good friends and maybe even lovers. The thing asked for is the degree of the dearness - something that isn't clarified until now officially.
So yes, these feelings are likely of guilt, but the thing asked for is if they are caused by romantic love or not.

There is no need for them to be, and establishing that they are would require going back and establishing the love in the first place, which I keep noting someone ought to go back and do.

Claim: Undying can refer to anything.
True. I think I didn't say something about the special-ness of the "undying" feelings, did I?

You said they were distinct from other people's. Cloud's guilt is a distinct emotion from the emotions of those around him and the players.

Claim: There was no quote provided saying that Tifa only tries to act bright to conceal her weakness.
The quote was like this:
"Contrary to her lively demeanor she reveals outwardly, she is a quiet introvert and carries many worries with her. To not realize this weakness, she exaggerates in forcing herself to act cheerful."
Something like this.

Wait, this sounds like an alternate version of the 'family minded' quote. Do you have a source on this, please?

Claim: It's unproper that Rufus lines were used to support the manual's inaccuracy.
My point was that the word "Ex-SOLDIER" was used before in the story and that the DoC manual maybe referred to that.

But it is IN ERROR when it does so. Just as Rufus was factually wrong when he referred to Cloud and such and CLOUD CORRECTED HIM. If it's referring to that, then the manual writer knows nothing of the plot and you must wonder at the accuracy of anything else stated in the manual.
Also, 'improper.' not unproper. English is a bitch at times.

There are many contradictions in the game and the sequels, so I think it's okay...?

The problem is, it's a game manual. Game manuals are notorious for, to put it kindly, adding things to sound better.
For example, apparently, Nintendo of Japan had no idea that Samus Aran was thought of as a Bounty Hunter in the states until Retro Studios asked to add the element of actually getting bounties into one of the games. Because that didn't exist in the Japanese manual or games, but did in the US one.

As for what causes Cloud's sorrow, it could be loss of a friend or loss of a lover. Friend is well established. Lover isn't. Establish lover, you begin establishing the case for sorrow over lover rather than friend.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

How can I tell if it's not clearly stated?

Then why are you asking us?
IMO, Cloud has sorrow because Aerith was a comrade and a friend, and then died. Simple as that.

Don't say you would like to hear my opinion. My opinion is my own interpretation of things, something that has no direct official source. And something that doesn't fit into a debate since my own opinion is undebatable and will only be changed by official sources.

Uh, okay. I just asked because I was curious, but never mind.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Claim: The time Barret called Tifa a wimp was post-FFVII.
While I agree that it was surely a horrible time for her, it didn't take place after FFVII. It takes place while Tifa encounters a mako-damaged Cloud in a wheelchair.

Wrong, actually. It takes place before they arrive in Mideel, when Tifa is leader and she's asking 'WWCD' and not seeming to have a direction for herself. Barret snaps her out of it--along with Cid. Much like when she calls Barret a retard on the Shinra steps. It's how they deal with one another. Tifa admits, after Barret makes the comment, that she is depressed. The man she loves is missing, presumed dead. Not sure exactly how chipper and 'go get 'em' you want the girl to be right then... :\

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Claim: LL misread some quote when saying that everyone knew when Barret called Tifa a wimp.
No. It was said once that this took place post-FFVII - something that isn't right.

Claim: It was said that feelings were only shared in the High Version.
No.
"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire for each other match."
So the feelings are only those of love in the High Version, while the "matching feelings" quotes seemingly refer to both sides (since there was never a quote saying that the feelings don't match somewhere).

Claim: Celes wields heavier weapons and arms than Locke.
Doesn't make her a physical fighter though.
Also, she and Terra are the only characters to learn magic without using magicite, making her more of a mage than an all-around stats character.

Claim: To be a mage doesn't make you destined for romance.
Again.
What did I say? Did I say it makes someone destined for love if he is a mage?
No.
I said that the love interest was always a mage.
Not that every mage is a possible love interest.

Claim: Snow is not a main character.
He is not THE main character, but he is A main character. He also appears in FFXIII-2 - though his appearance is rather... well... not-so-handsome anymore.

Claim: LL hasn't provided a source for her quote.
Hell... I'll search for that.

Claim: Manuals are notorious for adding things to sound better.
This might be true.

Claim: LL shouldn't be asking for Cloud's reason to feel sorrow if she doesn't want to hear personal opinions.
Well, I asked for a quote, but to be honest, I don't think there might be someone answering.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

Claim: LL shouldn't be asking for Cloud's reason to feel sorrow if she doesn't want to hear personal opinions.[/B]
Well, I asked for a quote, but to be honest, I don't think there might be someone answering.

Who claimed this?
If a quote as such doesn't exist, why can't we talk about our opinions then?
I wanted to hear what you thought about this. Can you answer that?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Claim: LL misread some quote when saying that everyone knew when Barret called Tifa a wimp.
No. It was said once that this took place post-FFVII - something that isn't right.

Are you certain? I see splintered said "This was post FFVII," but in response quite specifically to "And also, Barret says that - if Tifa doesn't work - she will drown in worries and then she won't do anything but that."

Claim: It was said that feelings were only shared in the High Version.
No.
"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire for each other match."
So the feelings are only those of love in the High Version, while the "matching feelings" quotes seemingly refer to both sides (since there was never a quote saying that the feelings don't match somewhere).

It is, said, however, that the conversation in the low version lacks feeling.
In any case, you're sort of trying to brute force equivocation into this.
We're told sharing feelings happens. We're told sharing feelings of desire happens in one version. We're told sharing them earnestly happens in one version. But we're also told, without any reference to 'if' that mutual feelings of romance are confirmed, and several other times the mutual feelings are confirmed as well. The scene in which the feelings are confirmed is one of the most important scenes in the entire game. It beats out THE ENDING.

Claim: Celes wields heavier weapons and arms than Locke.
Doesn't make her a physical fighter though.

Actually, it does. More than him.

Also, she and Terra are the only characters to learn magic without using magicite, making her more of a mage than an all-around stats character.

Actually, Celes IS an all around stats character. She's high in everything, and for most of the game, will be in your front line doing more to either deal damage physically or to tank.
Also, does it count as 'without magicite' when she's magicite infused?
Also, Strago, THERE is a straight up Mage.

Claim: To be a mage doesn't make you destined for romance.
Again.
What did I say? Did I say it makes someone destined for love if he is a mage?
No.
I said that the love interest was always a mage.
Not that every mage is a possible love interest.

In short- being a mage is irrelevant to being a love interest apart from female characters traditionally being mages. Despite this, numerous non mages still find love, like Beatrix, Freya, Fran, and others, and, as mentioned, PENELO. WHO IS NOT A MAGE. She's a dancer.

Claim: Snow is not a main character.
He is not THE main character, but he is A main character. He also appears in FFXIII-2 - though his appearance is rather... well... not-so-handsome anymore.

But if A main character counts for the love interest rules, then my examples above demonstrate quite fully that the 'Always a mage' rule is bullshit. FF9, A main character and A guest character, neither of whom are mages fall in love. Fuck, they even make the FTOIL page. That's Aldebert Steiner and Beatrix, BTW. Knight (Who has some spellswordy tricks of his own) and Paladin.

Claim: LL hasn't provided a source for her quote.
Hell... I'll search for that.

Thank you. Paraphrasing can lead to screwups, and had before, since the memory's a fuzzy thing.

Claim: Manuals are notorious for adding things to sound better.
This might be true.

It's pretty well established, though generally happens less as most manuals are skimpier on plot details nowadays.

Claim: LL shouldn't be asking for Cloud's reason to feel sorrow if she doesn't want to hear personal opinions.
Well, I asked for a quote, but to be honest, I don't think there might be someone answering.

The problem with this is, if you will only accept a quote, and no quote is forthcoming, all one can say is 'We simply do not know' and if you can come to a conclusion without a quote, there's already a plausible and parsimonious explanation.

 

[Marle]

Claim: To be a mage doesn't make you destined for romance.
Again.
What did I say? Did I say it makes someone destined for love if he is a mage?
No.
I said that the love interest was always a mage.
Not that every mage is a possible love interest.

No offense LL, but I think this is as silly as saying that FF7,FF8 and FF9's main female love interest all looked like one another; dark hair, dark eyes, etc.

It's interesting and all to analyze that but for an actual debate? Kinda pointless. :T

 

[Splintered]

Claim: To be a mage doesn't make you destined for romance.
Again.
What did I say? Did I say it makes someone destined for love if he is a mage?
No.
I said that the love interest was always a mage.
Not that every mage is a possible love interest.

This is kind of misleading because when you think about the traditional roles of females in Final Fantasy, the majority fall into mage categories.

In IV, I haven't gone that far but all three playable female characters I've encountered (Rydia, Rosa, and Porom) are mages specifically. With Rosa having some decent combat capabilities.

In VI, I only recall Terra, Celes, and Relm, but all three have mage capabilities. Relm is pretty much plaid straight, as is Terra, but while Celes (along with Terra) have "natural" mage capabilities, I thought you could use has as a straight fighter. But I don't remember well because I didn't use her >__>

VII, we can only really call Aerith a mage because traditional roles of jobs aren't exactly adhered too. I mean, Vincent is a mage character but we would also shoehorn him into a Beserker and Shooter too.

VIII, if we are just looking broadly, 3/3 females also show mage capabilities.

IX 2/3 playable females are mage characters. But Freya not only has a romance story, but Freya is also a rat character, so that sort of removes her from the pool of romances by Zidane.

X, 2/3 characters are mages. Again.

XII, 2/3 characters are pretty much straight mage like characters, Revenant Wings expands Penelo into a mage/dancer (I would definitely put Penelo as white mage/dancer, but official art portrays her as a black mage in XII). Fran is an odd beast because... she's not really good at anything. She might qualify for red mage.

XIII is the first time where the majority of the main roles of the females aren't mages.

So putting not being a mage against her as a love interest would be sort like, well Tifa isn't a mage, so maybe she's really not a woman.

EDIT: I do not mind genderbent!Tifa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This is kind of misleading because when you think about the traditional roles of females in Final Fantasy, the majority fall into mage categories.

In IV, I haven't gone that far but all three playable female characters I've encountered (Rydia, Rosa, and Porom) are mages specifically. With Rosa having some decent combat capabilities.

Better than Edge, if you kit her right.

In VI, I only recall Terra, Celes, and Relm, but all three have mage capabilities. Relm is pretty much plaid straight, as is Terra, but while Celes (along with Terra) have "natural" mage capabilities, I thought you could use has as a straight fighter. But I don't remember well because I didn't use her >__>

Celes can be used as a raw tank, yes. She has access to all greatswords and heavy armors.

VII, we can only really call Aerith a mage because traditional roles of jobs aren't exactly adhered too. I mean, Vincent is a mage character but we would also shoehorn him into a Beserker and Shooter too.

Actually, Aerith's officially a Geomancer, which is not technically a mage class, being physically oriented in FF3, 5, And T. But yeah, everyone can use magic but none do it 'naturally'
Though that's 'officially' inasmuch as that's what she's labeled as in various early materials. Not that it matters to the game itself.
Tifa's a 'shooter' for the record. Cloud's a Dark Knight, IIRC.

VIII, if we are just looking broadly, 3/3 females also show mage capabilities.

The only one who doesn't get into a romance is the one identifiable as a particular Mage Job Class. I just find that ironic in context, really.

X, 2/3 characters are mages. Again.

Half. I me- wait, Tidus is male. Carry on.
10-2, all physical, though.

XII, 2/3 characters are pretty much straight mage like characters, Revenant Wings expands Penelo into a mage/dancer (I would definitely put Penelo as white mage/dancer, but official art portrays her as a black mage in XII). Fran is an odd beast because... she's not really good at anything. She might qualify for red mage.

Penelo's Dancer/ Whatever, given her special FFTA2 class is Dancer.
Fran's an Archer first, if Rev Wings means anything.
Ashe is a Grenadier.

XIII is the first time where the majority of the main roles of the females aren't mages.

No, FFVII is, with Tifa and Yuffie fitting closer to Monk and Thief, with only Aerith MAYBE being a mage, but FFXIII is another example of it, once we get past the 'everyone is a mage, and a warrior, and a...' bit.

 

[Roger]

In VI, I only recall Terra, Celes, and Relm, but all three have mage capabilities. Relm is pretty much plaid straight, as is Terra, but while Celes (along with Terra) have "natural" mage capabilities, I thought you could use has as a straight fighter. But I don't remember well because I didn't use her >__>

Celes and Terra both use the big damagedoing sword and heavy armor that characters like Locke, Strago, Relm and other fragile characters can't. Terra and Celes get magic, they are also characters you put in the front row to protect various characters in the back row.

VII, we can only really call Aerith a mage because traditional roles of jobs aren't exactly adhered too. I mean, Vincent is a mage character but we would also shoehorn him into a Beserker and Shooter too.

We can only really call nobody any class at all because that's not how VII works, period.

XII, 2/3 characters are pretty much straight mage like characters, Revenant Wings expands Penelo into a mage/dancer (I would definitely put Penelo as white mage/dancer, but official art portrays her as a black mage in XII). Fran is an odd beast because... she's not really good at anything. She might qualify for red mage.

Like VII (or really, VI and VIII), nothing is forcing you to narrowmindedly shoehorn the females into the magic roles. They start with dagger, sword and bow, take it from there.

XIII is the first time where the majority of the main roles of the females aren't mages.

If Fran, Celes, Terra and Aeris are mages then Lightning and Fang sure as hell are too. Unlike Fran and Aeris, you pretty have to use magic with them, a lot.

 

[Splintered]

If Fran, Celes, Terra and Aeris are mages then Lightning and Fang sure as hell are too. Unlike Fran and Aeris, you pretty have to use magic with them, a lot.

Well maybe, but it's a lot easier to use Fang just as your physical damage dealer since she's your strongest character, and she's the only character that doesn't have access to the ravanger capabilities right off the bat. I also think she gets Ruin later than usual, but don't quote me on that.

Lightning is awesome because you can pretty much make her anything. I used her as my brute force character but now that I think about it, you could make her a mage seeing as she's your second fastest caster with strong magic capabilities. Still, compared to Hope and Vanille, her access to some of the Ravanger abilities come later and aren't as extensive, also she's missing some of the better medic techniques and...

Like VII (or really, VI and VIII), nothing is forcing you to narrowmindedly shoehorn the females into the magic roles. They start with dagger, sword and bow, take it from there.

Well, Penelo and Ashe are your strongest mage characters, along with having the best MP. Penelo's got the traditional "really low HP" as well, though Ashe has some physical ability if I remember correctly. Penelo is pretty much your white mage/dancer mix in RW, but XII has her hinting as dancer (with a dagger as the initial equip and her dancing limits), and I think Ashe is suppose to be a time mage. Which I don't honestly get, I always pictured her more as a Paladin.

Fran not so much, but Fran's stats kinda suck. Which is sad tbh, since she's awesome.

Celes and Terra both use the big damagedoing sword and heavy armor that characters like Locke, Strago, Relm and other fragile characters can't. Terra and Celes get magic, they are also characters you put in the front row to protect various characters in the back row.

Yeah I heard you can equip Terra with almost anything. But I always kept my party members as Terra/Edgar/Sabin/Locke so she was always my main mage. Just made sense to me storywise as well.


Also...

What was this about Tifa/Cloud? They're pretty cool I guess.


EDIT:

Actually, Aerith's officially a Geomancer, which is not technically a mage class, being physically oriented in FF3, 5, And T. But yeah, everyone can use magic but none do it 'naturally'
Though that's 'officially' inasmuch as that's what she's labeled as in various early materials. Not that it matters to the game itself.
Tifa's a 'shooter' for the record. Cloud's a Dark Knight, IIRC.

I thought these were just initial concepts. They thought of making Tifa a shooter before passing the job to Vincent and Barret.

 

[Celes Chere]

I said that the love interest was always a mage.

I never saw any Locke x Terra in FFVI... FFVI has never fit in with this statement, so I don't know why some Cleriths are making the comparison. If you want to compare if to all the FFs fine, but just make sure they all match up before doing it. Also 'mage' is sort of a non specific way of saying it, though I get what you mean. It still doesn't work though.
-If you say the 'healer' is always the love interest, it's not so. The main healer in every game varies.
-If you say every 'summoner' is always the love interest, it doesn't fit with a lot of games. In most FFs, everyone can summon.
-Finally if you try saying the 'damsel in distress' is the love interest - still doesn't work. That only comes close to fitting Rinoa.

In fact comparing the childhood friends thing with Cloud and Tifa fits more than the mage thing does.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well maybe, but it's a lot easier to use Fang just as your physical damage dealer since she's your strongest character, and she's the only character that doesn't have access to the ravanger capabilities right off the bat. I also think she gets Ruin later than usual, but don't quote me on that.

Yes, she's oriented more towards physical rather than magical, but merely having magic is enough to class Celes as a mage to LL.

Lightning is awesome because you can pretty much make her anything. I used her as my brute force character but now that I think about it, you could make her a mage seeing as she's your second fastest caster with strong magic capabilities. Still, compared to Hope and Vanille, her access to some of the Ravanger abilities come later and aren't as extensive, also she's missing some of the better medic techniques and...

Spellsword. Learn it, love it. Physical class, technically.

Well, Penelo and Ashe are your strongest mage characters, along with having the best MP. Penelo's got the traditional "really low HP" as well, though Ashe has some physical ability if I remember correctly. Penelo is pretty much your white mage/dancer mix in RW, but XII has her hinting as dancer (with a dagger as the initial equip and her dancing limits), and I think Ashe is suppose to be a time mage. Which I don't honestly get, I always pictured her more as a Paladin.

Bards and Dancers are also really low HP classes with status affects, but they're decidely not mages.

EDIT:

I thought these were just initial concepts. They thought of making Tifa a shooter before passing the job to Vincent and Barret.

That's what I meant by 'officially' inasmuch as,' since that's all we have to go on with their classes.
FFVIII also doesn't hold anyone to a Class, either.
Though on second consideration, Rinoa would be closest be a beastmaster, technically, if VIII had 'classes.'

I never saw any Locke x Terra in FFVI... FFVI has never fit in with this statement, so I don't know why some Cleriths are making the comparison. If you want to compare if to all the FFs fine, but just make sure they all match up before doing it. Also 'mage' is sort of a non specific way of saying it, though I get what you mean. It still doesn't work though.
-If you say the 'healer' is always the love interest, it's not so. The main healer in every game varies.
-If you say every 'summoner' is always the love interest, it doesn't fit with a lot of games. In most FFs, everyone can summon.

Plus, a 'summoner's' only been the love interest twice.

-Finally if you try saying the 'damsel in distress' is the love interest - still doesn't work. That only comes close to fitting Rinoa.

In fact comparing the childhood friends thing with Cloud and Tifa fits more than the mage thing does.

To elaborate, that particular and specific trope gets you FFIII, IV, VIII in the form of Irv/Selph, FFX in the form of Wakka Lulu, and XII in Vaan/Penelo. Snow/ Serah have known each other since they were very young as well, IIRC.
Plus Fang/Vanille, if you subscribe to the popular theory about them.

Addendum: Oh! Before I forget- I've been told someone has misunderstood my statements about undying feelings, apparently arriving at the conclusion, contrary to my statements that I think Undying feelings fade with time. This is quite literally the opposite of what I said. To be specific, my point is the only thing that defines something undying is that it DOES NOT fade with time. Please do try and report my points more honestly in the future, thank you.

 

[Madame Mayor]

This isn't meant to be rude or condescending but isn't this discussion of mage love interests ridiculous?

I mean, let's put aside the fact that part of the whole Cloud/Aerith dynamic is to make you believe this looks like a potential couple we're used to seeing in games/anime and then she suddenly dies.

But claiming the love interest is always a mage? As if this has anything to do with storytelling? All it really does is make SE sound like lazy writers tbh.

Seriously, the LTD isn't a game of how many quotes you have and how many comparisons to other FF couples I have. It's about the story. And if you have to go out past the actual story "well Cloud/Aerith remind me of Squall/Rinoa" to get evidence, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Anastar]

Discord

Let's start with the second quote:

Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together.

This quote in and of itself means nothing, since Cloud and Tifa spend the night together in both the LA version and in the HA version. So saying that they spent the night together in and of itself holds no implications of romance.

As far as Cloud being "chipper" the next morning - yes, it could mean that he and Tifa confided their love to one another the night before. But is that the only possible reason Cloud could be feeling good?

Maybe Cloud's relieved that everyone came back. When he and Tifa first board the HW the next morning, they think they're alone. A journey into the Northern Crater will be easier with all of them, won't it? Maybe Cloud's relieved that they're finally heading for the Northern Crater, so they can finally get this confrontation with Sephiroth over with and free Holy. Or maybe Cloud's glad to finally have things resolved with Tifa, since they both made their feelings clear the night before.

I'll respond to this since I don't think Tres has the time. You seem to be under the impression that those two quotes aren't connected, but they are. Here is a screenshot, with a translation from the UO where this is shown. (AND BEFORE ANYONE SAYS ANYTHING, THE THIRD ONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FROM CLOUD )

Spoiler: and the text for good measure

クラウドの提案で、 自分が戦う理由を確かめるため、 いったん飛空艇を降りる。
翌朝もどり、 仲間とともに北の大空洞へ発つ 。

She confirms her reason for fighting at Cloud's suggestion, and temporarily disembarks the Airship. She returns the next morning together with her friends and departs for the Northern Crater.

飛空艇にもどった自分を優しく迎えるクラウドに

She returned to the airship to receive a tender greeting from Cloud.

クラウドやさしいねえ。なんかあった？
'Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?'

ユフィは知らないが、直前にクラウドはティファとふたりきりの夜を過ごしたばかり。さすが、女のカンは鋭い ？
Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together.

Yuffie noticing Cloud is chipper, and the quote that she is unaware that they spent the night together are clearly related. So, what in the low affection happened that has Cloud so happy?

I would give you the exact same answer.

You're determined that the only possible reason Cloud could be happy is that he and Tifa spent the night playing kissy face with one another. I'm saying there's other reasons he could be happy - such as the others coming back.

I'm also suggesting that Cloud resolved things with Tifa the night before during the LA version. Things could have been getting awkward if Cloud thought Tifa had a crush on him, for example. If they got things straightened out that they're both just friends, then that awkwardness would no longer be there and Cloud would feel a lot better.

Is it resolving things with Tifa? Well then, I would also like to know what happened in the low affection version that Tifa is so embarrassed about the next day. What's so bad about saying you want to be friends?

Tifa gets embarrassed regardless of which version you get. She gets more embarrassed in the HA version, yes - but in the LA version, she gets embarrassed because the others saw her asleep on Cloud's shoulder.

According to what you're saying, every time SE says "feelings", they're talking about romantic feelings and only romantic feelings. They can't mean anything else.

Okay let's go over stuff I said earlier, shall we?

Quotes that don't say which feelings:

1. (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."

2. (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "

3. (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."

4. (CCU, pg. 33)
"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."

So HALF of the quotes posted talk about romantic feelings no ifs ands or buts. That's a lot if you ask me. So which makes more sense. That half the quotes are speaking of some feelings we don't know, or that they are all talking about the same thing?

Where did I say ANYWHERE that "EVERY time SE says feelings, they're talking about love"

I'm pretty sure I didn't

You said right there that "half the quotes are talking about feelings of love, so the other quotes have to be talking about love, too".

You're trying to say that all quotes MUST be talking about the HA version, and they can't be talking about anything else.

My point:
Which makes more sense. All these quotes reference the same thing, or some do and some don't?

See? You want them all to be talking about the HA version. I'm saying that the word "feelings" can mean "feelings of friendship" as well as other feelings. We don't know what feelings they're talking about, so don't make assumptions.

Now, once again - if the HA HW scene is canon, and that's the reason SE uses only the HA HW scene picture in their story summaries, then how come SE also says in the 20th AU and the FFVII UO that the HA scene diverges into two conditions depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud? Like I said to OWD - are your quotes more valid than my quotes?

You're saying what's written in the 10th AU storyline (and I'm just talking about the 10th AU storyline) isn't accurate. If it's not accurate, can we take anything from the 10th AU playbacks as accurate?

I'm not saying it's inaccurate. I'm saying that two Ultimania's say that two different versions can happen and that those versions depend on Tifa's affection level. The 10th AU only shows one version in the summary, and you jump to the conclusion that means one version is canon even though SE also says that both versions are possible in other sources.

And now I have to wonder. You tell me that the picture is before the HW scene when Cloud's telling everyone to go find what's important to them. Have you rechecked the story summary to find out if it's really just talking about the HA version?

If one quote from the book isn't accurate, then how do we know what IS accurate?

I never said it was inaccurate. I said the use of one version can't confirm that it's canon when other official sources say that the version a player gets is determined by Tifa's affection rating with Cloud.

And why, if the Clerith version is default, did SE use a picture of the Cloti date scene in the 10th AU in Cloud's profile? If, according to you, SE only uses pictures of canon/default versions, then they should have used a picture of the Clerith date scene.

Can you please point out where I said this? I don't believe I said that Square only uses canon/default scenes for pictures. I said in the story playbacks that they always use Aerith's date and the HA scene, but that's very different from what you're saying I said.

This point is rather meaningless now that you've found out the picture is not of the HA version.

Now what I want to ask you is this:
Square has NEVER made such a statement as you provided.

Good. That means there's no canon couple.

They tell us these things in other ways.

Right. Like Nomura saying that SE wants to leave it up to the player.

They don't say "This is the outcome" and "That is canon" or anything like that.

Yeah. When SE wants us to know a couple is canon in other games, they give us reason to think they're a couple in a non-optional scene that confirms their love for one another.

Aerith's date being default was simply their way of saying that you're most likely to get that scene.

Isn't that what "default" means? LOL

Why do you want the highwind scene to be the exception here?

Because SE should give us a non-optional scene showing who Cloud loves instead of fans deciding which optional scene is canon.

And you know the canon ending to 10-2 has Tidus come back right? How do we know this if Square never specifically said, "The canon outcome is where Tidus comes back!"?

Actually, we don't know this. This is something that you have decided.

Whether or not Tidus comes back doesn't decide whether Yuna loves Tidus. We found out for sure that Yuna and Tidus love one another in FFX, thanks to the make out scene in the lake. So whether or not Tidus comes back in FFX-2, we still know that Yuna loves Tidus and vice versa.

The difference is that you're trying to say that an optional scene determines who Cloud loves. An optional scene does not decide if Yuna loves Tidus. A non-optional scene decides that.

And I guess Marlene means more to Cloud than Denzel since she pops up before he does?

I guess so.

You do realize in order to prove your point, you're willing to say that Cloud loves Marlene more than Denzel? You'd think that the child that his supposed lover brought to him to raise would be more important than his friend's child that he's watching temporarily (cause Barret will return cause he's part of the family, right?), but I guess not. Guess that child from Aerith wasn't so special after all.

Everybody I know likes Marlene better than Denzel.

Finally found this. Anastar you once said this to me:

No, the Low Affection version was described as "apathetic" in the FFVII UO, and apathetic means that something shows little or no emotion. It's also said that the High Affection version is the only version that's "meaningful". If they shared feelings in the Low Affection version, even if they exchanged feelings of friendship or even hatred, then the scene would have meaning.

So by your own words (and this was maybe slightly more than a year ago) they could not have shared feelings of friendship or even support or anything meaningful in the LA version. So please tell me exactly WHAT feelings they shared in the LA version that are not meaningful that Square is talking about in those quotes since it can't be friendship or support or w/e.

I think you're taking my words out of context there. I'd like to see what you said that I'm responding to, since I would wager that you were saying something about whether or not the scene has meaning.

EDIT II
Okay found the quote too

好感度が高い場合、 ふたりで過ごす夜が意味深なものに

When the affection is high, the two spend the night with profound meaning.

Notice it specifies that when the affection is high? So once again, it's saying that more than one version is possible.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Right. Like Nomura saying that SE wants to leave it up to the player.

He NEVER says this in regards to the LTD. NOT EVER. I have seen you bastardize this quote for your arguments here and on your own forum, and it's a blatant twisting of a KINGDOM HEARTS quote regarding who Cloud is searching for...which was Sephiroth as it turned out, but that's beside the point. What is the point is that Nomura has not ever, ever, ever, ever said the LTD was player choice. The closest he ever came was during the OG when he said he didn't want to decide who Cloud loved and there were office betting pools and arguments over it. Since then he--as well as Nojima--have made it less ambiguous. The fear of alienating a minuscule percentage of the fandom apparently doesn't worry them anymore.

 

[Madame Mayor]

The difference is that you're trying to say that an optional scene determines who Cloud loves. An optional scene does not decide if Yuna loves Tidus. A non-optional scene decides that.

Why does who a character loves get special treatment over any other kind of canon outcome? Rephrased, we can have canon outcomes for optional scenes that tell us whether characters joined our party, lived, died, or come back to life, but we can't have it determine who a character is romantically interested in?

Not that I think that's what happens in the highwind scene. Cloud's feelings are solidified in the non-optional lifestream sequence. However, it's still an odd standard to put on canon outcomes.