The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

We also know that it's theoretically possible for Cloud to still be able to see and communicate with Aerith after AC for several reasons:

1) Since Sephiroth exists, Aerith must exist. There was no doubt about that one. ~Nojima, pg. 9, Reunion Files

Are you saying that Sephiroth can no longer exist? A dead man who's been resurrected at least three times to fight battles with Cloud? A dead man who said in CoL: Black that he will always exist in Cloud's consciousness?

Still warping the meaning of that quote, are you? Even though it's been pointed out to you a million times that Nojima wasn't discussing the metaphysics of FFVII there, and instead was talking about what was necessary from a writing perspective?

Not that it would matter even if he were discussing the metaphysics there since Seph was apparently put down for good in AC/C.

3) We saw Aerith in Calling after she and Zack went back to the Lifestream, so we know Aerith's not limited to the Lifestream.

That image that was removed from the final version of the film, you mean? And which -- when it was there -- was only ever identified as an illusion? For God's sake, it was described verbatim as "nothing with any presence in reality." =|

How can you turn to that for support for your claim? I'm embarassed for you.

4) The presence of Aerith was suggested in Reminiscence during Cloud's phone call with Tifa. That was the only phone call where you could hear Cloud's voice only, which suggests that someone was listening in to his phone call. The most likely person to be listening in is Aerith.

You've been saying this for years but have yet to give a reason why only hearing Cloud's side of the conversation is an indication that someone else was with him. The reason could have been anything from an artistic decision to focus only on what Cloud was saying, to Tifa's actor being unavailable, to them deciding it just wasn't necessary to record any voice acting for Tifa there.

Seriously, substantiate this claim with somehing more than the claim itself.

The way the phone call was depicted is not enough on its own to indicate what you say it does. I can easily point to a scene in "Wicker Park" where two characters are in the same room while one of them is having a conversation on the phone, with us only able to hear his side of it. Then, when the other character gets on the phone with the same person (the other guy still in the room), we're now able to hear both sides of the convo.

It is my interpretation that Cloud can still see Aerith because she lives on inside of him.

So why can Kadaj and those kids in the church see her? And why can Tifa and Marlene sense her? And why can everyone with a phone hear her?

Looks like we're on equal footing.


In the first place, it's never said that Tifa is worried about whether Cloud loves her. That's merely your assumption. Maybe she's just curious.

In the second place, your objection is negated by what you said here: "Shouldn't she know he doesn't if the LA happened?" Yes, but she should also know that he does if the HA happened.

She should know his feelings regardless of which version happened, and therefore should have no reason to ask regardless of which version happened. The contradiction is as strong for your version as for my version.

What makes more sense? For two people to confirm they love each other, then -- after one of them becomes a tad distant, and the other becomes concerned -- one of them asks if the other's feelings have changed, or two people to confirm they have no interest in one another, then -- after one of them becomes a tad distant -- for one to ask if the other's feelings have changed?

Come on.

No, you conveniently made it say what you wanted it to say. What it really says is that Cloud carries his own undying feelings for Aerith even today - and the phraseology suggests that part of Cloud's feeling might be love, since other characters feel love for Aerith.

I see you're still warping that quote too by leaving out the rest of it:

"I think that for all those players who once traveled with her as comrades, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even now.... Its relation to the church scene is.... Yeah. I'll leave this to everyone's imagination. (laughs)"

Nomura said that feeling is related to "the church scene." This interview was published in Famitsu PS2 on October 24, 2003 -- only a month after AC's existence was revealed to the public at 2003's Tokyo Game Show. At that point, there was only one known church scene -- the one in the TGS preview, which was ultimately shown to be the scene of Cloud finding Tifa beaten up in the church.

And what appears in that scene? The guilt wolf.

Nomura was talking about guilt.

Do you mean how does Tifa see Marlene fitting into the family of friends? I think it's obvious that she would see Marlene as Barret's daughter. Since Barret's her friend and part of the family, his daughter should be part of the family, too.

Barret's gone at that point. If Tifa sees Cloud and Marlene as a "family of friends" only, then what are Marlene's sins?

We keep asking you and you continue refusing to answer. How does Marlene fit the description of someone who bears the same wounds and sins as Tifa?

It's pretty much surrendering the point that you continue avoiding answering this even while you constantly take refuge behind the claim you make about this quote.

If there's a bed in "Cloud's room", then it's most likely his bedroom. We never see a room that's called "Cloud and Tifa's room".

The office is never called "Cloud's room" either -- only "Cloud's office" and "the room Cloud used as an office." Seems like it would have been easier to call it "Cloud's room" or "Cloud's bedroom" if that's what it was supposed to be, don't it?

When Rude and Reno bring Cloud and Tifa back to the Seventh Heaven, they take them to Denzel and Marlene's room. Why not take them to their bedroom? Probably because they don't have one.

Probably because (and simply watching the first few minutes of AC/C confirms this to be true) the kids' room is the first bedroom with space enough to put two people down that one comes to while going up the stairs in the house.

Sesc posted it here a week ago: http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7360&page=61

Sesc found the source for the quote and it comes from here: http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

The interview took place in November, 2005, so it was after Advent Children's release date is September, 2005.

Hold the phone. The FlareGamer article that first brought that Dorigama interview to our attention was released October 10, 2005.

Something doesn't add up.

So far, the only bed we've seen is the bed in Cloud's room and the beds in Denzel and Marlene's room. If you think Cloud and Tifa are sleeping with one another, then your imagination's overactive since there's absolutely nothing to suggest it.

By that reasoning, we've no reason to believe Tifa has a room or bed of her own since we've not seen one.

Oh, by the way: Cloud's office. That's the word you're looking for.

 

[Dashell]

Hold the phone. The FlareGamer article that first brought that Dorigama interview to our attention was released October 10, 2005.

Something doesn't add up.

So does this mean it was released after AC or was just found after AC?

Also:

Ending: Avalanche PartyPhone conversations between Avalanche members and Cloud can be heard. The AC voices of Yuffie, Cid, Vincent, and Barret each tell him to go to Seventh Heaven. The very last call during Reminiscence occurs just after the scene during the FF7 AC credits, where Cloud is riding Fenrir through a flowerfield. Cloud calls home and asks Tifa to close the restaurant for an unknown reason, then tells her to let Denzel and Marlene know. Apparently Yuffie and Barret were planning on having a party. The final photo of the Avalanche team after the ending credits was most likely taken during this party.

Before anyone jumps with this.. was that just this Yam person's opinion? I'm not sure if all of the interview was in the magazine or just some things

 

[Vendel]

Vendel

Here.

Oh, you mean you want confirmation that Cloud can still see and communicate with Aerith before you believe it?

No. You said it was "up to the player". And what has been presented is in no way under player control.

Although now that you bring it up. How exactly is Cloud going to touch Aerith now that she is back in the lifestream where she belongs? She isn't coping any Cloud feels in DoC.

Funny - I'm wanting confirmation that Cloud loves Tifa before I believe it.

It is only theoretically possible that Cloud loves Tifa because we know it's possible to get the HA version, even though it's optional. We also know that it's theoretically possible for Cloud to still be able to see and communicate with Aerith after AC for several reasons:

I'm not sure how you can put having a relationship with a dead woman on the same theoretical plane as a relationship with the woman he is currently shacked up with?

Maybe it's just me?

1) Since Sephiroth exists, Aerith must exist. There was no doubt about that one. ~Nojima, pg. 9, Reunion Files

Are you saying that Sephiroth can no longer exist? A dead man who's been resurrected at least three times to fight battles with Cloud? A dead man who said in CoL: Black that he will always exist in Cloud's consciousness?

Hey you know who are two people that don't show up after ACC?

And if one isn't showing up then the other one has no reason to show up either.

The man knew that if one could hold onto some core of their spirit, then one could remain a separate entity, independent from the planet's system. Cloud. The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. I'm still thinking of you. And I'll show you the proof of that as well. ~Case of Lifestream: Black 1; by Nojima

2) Sephiroth made Cloud a core of his spirit so that he could continue to exist. So did Aerith. That was told to us by Nomura in Distance:

The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview

So Sephiroth continues to exist because he lives on in Cloud. If Sephiroth exists, Aerith exists. Aerith lives on in Cloud, too.

You seemed to have missed some big points here. One Aerith doesn't need to make Cloud her "core". Nor do we have anything to suggest she does this.

And two we have nothing to show us that either Aerith or Sephy exist after ACC.

3) We saw Aerith in Calling after she and Zack went back to the Lifestream, so we know Aerith's not limited to the Lifestream.

Maybe it's because of people like you that they removed her ghost from the ACC credits?

4) The presence of Aerith was suggested in Reminiscence during Cloud's phone call with Tifa. That was the only phone call where you could hear Cloud's voice only, which suggests that someone was listening in to his phone call. The most likely person to be listening in is Aerith.

There is nothing to suggest her presence at all. This is an entirely invented scenario by yourself and others like you.

And the only reason I can think of is that you want to take a scene of Cloud calling Tifa to close the bar the next day so he can spend more time with her and the kids and make it about Aerith.

It's not.

Therefore, Cloud is able to continue seeing and communicating with Aerith.

Except he doesn't. And we have zero evidence that he does.

That is just as theoretically possible as it is for Cloud to love Tifa.

It's not.

It was not shown that Cloud loves Tifa in any non-optional scene in FFVII

Oh so the LS sequence is optional?

after the HW scene, during the novella's, during AC/ACC, or during DoC. Therefore, the idea that Cloud loves Tifa is merely your interpretation of the story.

I am still trying to wrap my brain around the fact that you don't see anything romantic about C/T and yet you think Aerith's ghost is eavesdropping on his conversations with Tifa.

It is my interpretation that Cloud can still see Aerith because she lives on inside of him.

Where she belongs is the lifestream. Where Cloud belongs is with Tifa. Notice a pattern?

Looks like we're on equal footing.

I would like to think you don't really believe that.

In the first place, it's never said that Tifa is worried about whether Cloud loves her. That's merely your assumption. Maybe she's just curious.

So Tifa sneaks into Cloud's room and asks him while he is sleeping if he loves her. Then when he wakes up she changes the question......because she is curious?

If she was curious then why didn't she just ask him when he was awake or not change the question? Because if this isn't something that worries her than it should be just like asking him if he wants butter or jam on his toast.

In the second place, your objection is negated by what you said here: "Shouldn't she know he doesn't if the LA happened?" Yes, but she should also know that he does if the HA happened.

She should know his feelings regardless of which version happened, and therefore should have no reason to ask regardless of which version happened. The contradiction is as strong for your version as for my version.

So now Tifa should know regardless? So which is it? She knows in both versions or only the HA one? Because so far you have said both.

Also if she should know, then why is she asking if he loves her? What has happened in the last (oh let's say) year since the game that causes this doubt in Tifa? Did Cloud do something that makes her think he might not love her? Or did he do something that makes her think he does love her now?

We know Cloud is becoming distant. So if Tifa thought he might not love her anymore she would have reason. But on the other hand.....what about Cloud becoming distant would make Tifa think he has started to love her when he didn't before?

Thing is, there is no one way to interpret the Love Triangle in the game. It's your opinion that there's only one way to interpret it, but that doesn't make it fact. For all you know, the way I interpret the Love Triangle is the correct way to interpret it, and you're the one inventing stories about Tifa.

Thankfully for me I can always fall back on the Ultimania.

We disagree.

Obviously.

Oh - is that why Nomura said after the release of AC that he has no idea whether Cloud and Tifa were involved in a romantic relationship in the two years after FFVII?

Didn't that happen before AC came out?

Is that why Nojima wrote in CoL:White that Cloud is Aerith's lover/sweetheart?

Or that a relationship with Aerith was purely hypothetical. While "love marriage and family" entered into his mind when writing CoT?

Is that why the DoC Game Manual says that Aerith will be engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life?

And that Tifa opened an orphanage and Cloud is an Ex-Soldier.....

Is that why Tifa's profile in the 10th AU calls Aerith a "love rival" of Tifa's?

-"A close friend as well as rival?
The complicated emotions she feels towards Aerith.

「Both of them share feelings for Cloud 」 — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival."

It says she might be considered a love rival. Not that she was one. Because as we know Cloud on the first disk isn't exactly looking to hook up.

Is that why Cloud thinks of Aerith first and second after Sephiroth asks him what he cherishes most?

He thinks of Zack last. What does this tell us? Only that it leads to an extended romantic back to back conversation in the white space.

It tells us nothing about his standing on the "importance scale".

And now that I think about it. Why are Tifa and the children there? I thought Cloud didn't worry about this so-called family?

Is that why the Reunion Files says that Cloud is no longer alone at the end of AC after finding Aerith again?

Of course he isn't alone. He is living back home again. And Aerith is in the lifestream.

No, you conveniently made it say what you wanted it to say. What it really says is that Cloud carries his own undying feelings for Aerith even today - and the phraseology suggests that part of Cloud's feeling might be love, since other characters feel love for Aerith.

What I wanted it to say? So it doesn't say "Cloud ALSO"?

Speaking of also...when are Cloud's feelings for Aerith ever described as love? We are just silly with guilt quotes. But not love.

Are you trying to avoid replying to what I said, or are you trying to put words in my mouth so that nobody will notice that you're not replying to what I said?

II did respond to what you are saying. After I peeled back the BS surrounding it.

What I gave you were two (MORE) examples of things said by SE which say that 1) Tifa is aware that Cloud still loves Aerith,

Oh really it says that? I must have missed it. Please show me again.

and 2) Cloud may not be romantically interested in Tifa.

It says that also? I must be missing a lot.

Not the point. The point is that the only person we hear talking about and worrying about a "real family" is Tifa.

The point is that only you seem to think that unless someone says "real family" we can't know who or what they rest of them are worried about.

Tifa does say it's a family of friends. However, that's Tifa thinking the family is made up of friends, not Marlene.

Do you mean how does Tifa see Marlene fitting into the family of friends? I think it's obvious that she would see Marlene as Barret's daughter. Since Barret's her friend and part of the family, his daughter should be part of the family, too.

Let me see if I can spell this out for you. You are claiming Marlene is a part of this "family of friends" who Tifa describes as.

"Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins."

How does that description fit Marlene of all people? Because it's just her and Cloud at that point. And how does this later fit Denzel?

It seems to me you just invented another category for Marlene to fit into. It's the "family of friends" who are apparently Cloud and Barret. Then it's "children of the family of friends" right?

I'll respond when you find a real quote from the story to support what you're saying.

Except Cloud talks about his family. And I have shown you this quote. But you think since he doesn't say "REAL FAMILY" that it's not important to him.

Then what friends do you think she's talking about?

It couldn't possibly AVALANCHE.

And every time she says it, she's wondering IF they've become a real family. In fact, the first time Tifa wonders that is after Cloud brings Denzel home.

Funny thing to wonder about if you are just raising a couple of friends with your other friend now isn't it?

Yes, just as easily.

Only in your head.

You should know, since you're living there, too.

You're right, looking up "She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding" in the ultimania is exhausting.

No, it doesn't. Especially when Cloud calls Tifa his "nakama" in Dissidia 012. Which, by the way, means "FRIEND as close as family".

Thanks for proving my point. Because the explanation for why one line in Dissidia trumps direct ultimania quotes abotu the compilation would be an envolved one I'm sure.

Then I repeat: Barret's the first to suggest it (actually Marlene, but same difference), then Tifa calls it a family of friends, then Marlene invites Cloud into the family. That clearly means it's not Cloud's idea.

It' doesn't matter who came up with the idea of the 7th heaven family. It only matters that it IS Cloud and Tifa's family.

In fact Q don't you have a quote from Denzel's profile that directly states he joins Cloud's family? I know there are a few floating around like that.

I suggest you re-read CoT, since that's not how it happens at all.

Oh so Cloud rejects the idea of family? He has an odd way of showing it. Why with bringing home another kid and all.

If there's a bed in "Cloud's room", then it's most likely his bedroom.

So my living room was my brothers bedroom? And not my living room that he just happened to sleep in for a bit?

We never see a room that's called "Cloud and Tifa's room".

Nor do we see "Cloud's bedroom".

Nor the bathroom as Ryu likes to point out. One would assume they have one.

When Rude and Reno bring Cloud and Tifa back to the Seventh Heaven, they take them to Denzel and Marlene's room. Why not take them to their bedroom? Probably because they don't have one.

So now Tifa doesn't have a bedroom either? And it couldn't possibly be that going up the stairs it's the first bedroom you see? I guess Cloud's office didn't fit the bill. Or that Reno & Rude would know where their bedroom is anyways.

Specifically, Nomura says that he has no idea whether Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship between FFVII and AC.

Somehow I can't seem to believe your sourcing or care about what he might have said off the cuff. Considering he is singing a different tune in the Reunion Files and such.

Plus Tres pointed out a....timeline error with your sources.

What makes you think Tifa wants an answer?

And here I thought she was just curious? Are you saying she might be worried about the answer?

It does have to if it wants us to know that they're sleeping with one another.

One would normally assume that for couples.

So far, the only bed we've seen is the bed in Cloud's room and the beds in Denzel and Marlene's room. If you think Cloud and Tifa are sleeping with one another, then your imagination's overactive since there's absolutely nothing to suggest it.

Only if you ignore everything about their relationship.



Edit: Now for Q.

So does this mean it was released after AC or was just found after AC?

It means that I wouldn't trust their sourcing with a 10 ft poll.

Before anyone jumps with this.. was that just this Yam person's opinion? I'm not sure if all of the interview was in the magazine or just some things

Is this a question that has to be asked?

 

[Sesc]

Hold the phone. The FlareGamer article that first brought that Dorigama interview to our attention was released October 10, 2005.

Something doesn't add up.

Just to clear some things up:

I forgot that magazine publication dates are normally set a week/month in the future. So yeah, the actual release date was on the 10th of October 2005.

That's besides the point though, the interview is still prior to AC's release date.

 

[Sesc]

Hold the phone. The FlareGamer article that first brought that Dorigama interview to our attention was released October 10, 2005.

Something doesn't add up.

Just to clear some things up:

I forgot that magazine publication dates are normally set a week/month in the future. So yeah, the actual release date was in fact on the 10th of October 2005. It's still after the release date of AC (14th of September 2005).

 

[Dashell]

In fact Q don't you have a quote from Denzel's profile that directly states he joins Cloud's family? I know there are a few floating around like that.

Maybe

First off, I want everyone to be honest with themselves. We know what this is about. Cleriths want Barret in the family to keep Cloud and Tifa apart, and Clotis want him out to bring Cloud and Tifa together. I don't want any, "Nuh-uh! I don't care!" Let's be honest with ourselves.

Quotes:
-When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. [Barrett is right there and is not mentioned]

-Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.

-With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward

-The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they [Cloud and Tifa]were forming in Edge.

-Cloud and Tifa's new family [member]

Although he's [Denzel] only been living there for a short while, he adores Cloud and Tifa like parents and his bonds with them are strong.

-After the meteor disaster, she's [Marlene] living with 4 people: Cloud, Tifa and moreover, Denzel. Lately the outlook of this 'family' is in pieces, so she mediates everybody's broken hearts.


All from the 10th AU. Look, Anastar, I understand that some things in the Compilation can be a bit confusing and wording can open things up to multiple interpretations. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) the ONLY evidence you have that Barret is part of the family is because why would he leave himself out as he's leaving, right?

Now what Barret says before he leaves has two interpretations from both sides. Some of us think he was calling THEM a family and not including himself (And this makes the most sense, because

1. If they were already a family as you've said before, why would Cloud and Tifa be so surprised by this?

2. Why would he say "Hey guys we're a family!" and then leave? That just seems silly )

or the other option, is that Barret included himself in the family and then left.

Here's the thing, we have several quotes telling you "CLOUD/TIFA/MARLENE/DENZEL = FAMILY." You have no quotes that Barret is part of the family EXCEPT for in the 10th AU when it says he goes to Edge to protect his family and friends. But how can we say it's the same family as the other passages are talking about? Especially when Marlene is his adoptive father and thus, his family. (YES, I AM saying Marlene has two families. It's not like it's impossible. Barret is her father, but she's living with a family of Cloud, Tifa and Denzel right now.)

Now look, I know a lot of people in this thread are saying you can't connect dots, and that you don't have reading comprehension and stuff like that. But I've seen you several times come to a proper conclusion, and look at things with unbiased eyes. They haven't seen that, but I have. So I know you're capable of it. So now I'm going to ask you a question that I want you to answer honestly and without bias. Clerith and Cloti don't matter with this question.

WHY would they say only those four are a family (even when Barret is standing right there, mind you and even when Marlene's own profile exclude's Barret and when several of the quotes say that family is Cloud and Tifa's) ... WHY would they do all that if it's Barret's family and he is part of it? ANd "Because Barret isn't living there" is not an answer, because they could easily still call the family his in those passages and they could also easily say "Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, Denzel and Barret who is out on a mission, formed a family" or something to that effect.

 

[Vendel]

First off, I want everyone to be honest with themselves. We know what this is about. Cleriths want Barret in the family to keep Cloud and Tifa apart, and Clotis want him out to bring Cloud and Tifa together. I don't want any, "Nuh-uh! I don't care!" Let's be honest with ourselves.

Q, don't try and make the arguments equivalent by saying "cloti's" want something stupid as well. Barret being part of the family or even living there has no bearing on Cloud and Tifa's relationship.

 

[Dashell]

Didn't that happen before AC came out?

Everywhere online says it was released Nov 2005, but Japanese magazines are usually a month ahead when they publish stuff (Like they release November's issue in October) so it'd be Oct 2005 which lines up with what Tres posted. I'm kind of surprised at how few people knew that here

However:

For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue.

I honesty took this to mean he was asked for two years after FFVII, not that he was talking about the two years in Cloud and Tifa's time. That doesn't make sense. Why would someone specifically ask him "Were Tifa and Cloud in a relationship for two years?"... I mean what? And they wouldn't say "Were C and T in a relationship between the time of FFVII and AC" if AC hadn't been released yet. XD

Anyways "He was asked this before AC came out (for two years after FFVII) and that was his answer." But he is definitely answering this after AC, but I still stand by me "He doesn't know cause he doesn't care "

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Since Vendel and Co. seem to be having a joyous time trouncing Anastar's arguments, I will only comment on this:

Anastar wrote:
4) The presence of Aerith was suggested in Reminiscence during Cloud's phone call with Tifa. That was the only phone call where you could hear Cloud's voice only, which suggests that someone was listening in to his phone call. The most likely person to be listening in is Aerith.

The most likely person listening is the audience.

Awesome Tres wrote:
Tifa's actor being unavailable, to them deciding it just wasn't necessary to record any voice acting for Tifa there.

I could have sworn there was a source on this, that stated just that. It may have been an interview with Rachel Leigh Cook, describing how Tifa's seiyū was unavailable for some scenes (Not necessarily just the phone call scene). I may be mistaken, but reading your comment poked my brain and I'm sure I heard commentary on that before.

Having said that... Soooo...Aerith is with Tifa when she gets her phone call from Reno???

 

[ClerithRaven]

It was used as a comparison. Either the quote was filial or it was romantic. That's how comparisons work.

Uhm... Didn't we already drop this?

I did reply with a "how" but you did not give me any substantial answer. You first made the claim, you substantiate it.

Wait for when I get back home to Manila. I'm in the province, Pangasinan. You've heard of it.

Like Aerith renting a space within Cloud's anatomy?

Where did I say that? Did I ever say that Aerith lives inside Cloud's body? I haven't even thought of that ever since I first read that quote.
It's her spirit that lives on in Cloud-her "memory", as spirits are only memories in the FF world, like Ryu said.

But it would be good if they were properly addressed.

Are you asking me to reply to every single point made which pretty much say the same things over and over?
That's... way too time-consuming. :p

Legend of Zelda reference.

I haven't played that. When you use a reference, it's helpful to put said reference. Not everyone plays the same game, or can play the same game.

Actually, it wasn't rude and because your initial point is pseudo-literal then you suddenly pull a 180 degree, I just don't understand anymore.

My initial point? Where? What post?
I really don't get how you got that.
It would be helpful if you quote said point. It doesn't even have to be you.
Anyone who saw that post, please do quote it for me to see.

Batter out?

Into the dugout he goes.

I think not having one is.

That's some twisted thought. LOL.
How can not having a tactic be considered a tactic in itself?

Context without standards?

Uhm, you keep referring to context. Not me.

Can't I say the word "fuck" anymore? Besides, it's not like the word "fuck" was directed at you.

And I don't say that word. Unless I've forgotten one post where I've said that word before. I refrain from using cuss words so that whoever debates with me don't have to feel the need for them. Guess it was futile.

<-------- I'm addicted to this thing here.

I think you're obsessed with it. :p

I first played the game when I was still 11 years old and I seriously thought they knocked each other's boots then. My mind must have been already tainted by that time. I mean, just how do you show someone how you feel without words?

A tight hug. A meaningful stare. Love can be expressed without words does not mean sex.

x-x-x-x-x

Eileen, I've read your post and it seems like we're on bad terms. I did not mean anything offensive there. If I was, it would be capitalized and over-emphasized.

Later.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Since Vendel and Co. seem to be having a joyous time trouncing Anastar's arguments, I will only comment on this:



The most likely person listening is the audience.

Most likely nothing. We are listening. Anyone else is an unnecessary entity and must be evidenced.

I could have sworn there was a source on this, that stated just that. It may have been an interview with Rachel Leigh Cook, describing how Tifa's seiy&#363; was unavailable for some scenes (Not necessarily just the phone call scene). I may be mistaken, but reading your comment poked my brain and I'm sure I heard commentary on that before.

I believe it was in the making of that they mentioned that Ayumi Ito, being a very popular actress, was unable to make it back to the booth for a few extra lines because she was busy at a shoot at the time.

Having said that... Soooo...Aerith is with Tifa when she gets her phone call from Reno???

Ooh, and Kadaj when he calls Rufus.
Aerith's just listening in on everyone's phone calls.

Addendum: CR, it was a TV series reference. A youtube link was posted later in the thread for clarification.

 

[Elisa Maza]

The other example is hidden in the Seventh Heaven. In AC we see the bar, Cloud's office, and the kids' room. This led some people to think that Cloud's office was Cloud's bedroom and that Tifa possibly slept with Marlene in the kid's room.
Truth is that in ACC we see one more room. When Tifa is approaching the phone, we see a door now open at the top of the stairs, one that leads to a room with blue walls. This color doesn't match the kids' room, and -of this I don't have proof but in context and after reading CoT, it's the more logical thought to follow- instead it looks like it could be Cloud and Tifa's bedroom.
It could be argued that it could be Tifa's only but the fact that the walls are blue should indicate that it's not a room for a woman. And we only were shown ONE extra room. Thus killing another nonsense claim about Cloud's office being Cloud's bedroom -and more if we add the fact that it's never referenced as such and it certainly doesn't look like a bedroom.

I've just watched this scene panel by panel in slow-motion, but I see no new room with blue walls. And the one behind Tifa IS the kids' bedroom. We can see Marlene's drawings and even the bunny toy in front of the window. =/

Word to the rest of the post, though.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The other example is hidden in the Seventh Heaven. In AC we see the bar, Cloud's office, and the kids' room. This led some people to think that Cloud's office was Cloud's bedroom and that Tifa possibly slept with Marlene in the kid's room.
Truth is that in ACC we see one more room. When Tifa is approaching the phone, we see a door now open at the top of the stairs, one that leads to a room with blue walls. This color doesn't match the kids' room, and -of this I don't have proof but in context and after reading CoT, it's the more logical thought to follow- instead it looks like it could be Cloud and Tifa's bedroom.
It could be argued that it could be Tifa's only but the fact that the walls are blue should indicate that it's not a room for a woman. And we only were shown ONE extra room. Thus killing another nonsense claim about Cloud's office being Cloud's bedroom -and more if we add the fact that it's never referenced as such and it certainly doesn't look like a bedroom.

I believe you're mistaken on this one, Suteki. There's no additional room there. At the top of the stairs is Cloud's office, a set of I think three more stairs, the kids room, and then the hallways heads off to the right.
I need to draw a layout of the known 7th heaven some point for easy reference.

But yes, ACC, chock full of metaphorical raspberries to crazy nonsense claims.
Then again, so was the original AC, given all the 'Orphanage' and 'Cloud will die' nonsense from way back when.

 

[Celes Chere]

First off, I want everyone to be honest with themselves. We know what this is about. Cleriths want Barret in the family to keep Cloud and Tifa apart, and Clotis want him out to bring Cloud and Tifa together. I don't want any, "Nuh-uh! I don't care!" Let's be honest with ourselves.

If you want to play that game then fine, add Barret into the family. It makes no difference. He's still not there, and Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel still form their own bonds and live together.

I think you're obsessed with it. :p

It's the symbol of Cloti, afterall.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Even if it's Marlene saying it, why would she call herself part of a family that Barret didn't belong to? Marlene and Barret have been family for years - I doubt that she would suddenly just leave him out of it.

Then Barret says, "Unite the family's strength and keep at it." Would he tell Marlene to unite the family strength if he wasn't part of that family? If Barret says "family" and he includes Marlene in that family, then he's obviously part of that family, too.

uhh i think if someone else is taking care of her, as is the case during that point of case of tifa, she'd reassure her dad that she'd be a good kid. so since he knows he can't take care of her where he's going, he reassures her as well that he knows she will be.

plus i would think he'd use 'unite our family's strength' if he was referring to the family of friends. idk

 

[Fairheartstrife]

"How you supposed to look after you're family if you can't even look after yourself." Marlene Wallace (doing a damn good Barret). I guess she didn't get the memo that Cloud didn't have a family... Poor Marlene... But wait...

"In the past you've always looked after me. You and Denzel and Tifa. You were there whenever I needed you..."

Fuck you, Cloud. Leaving Barret out like that. Douchebag.

Weird how Marlene brings up family and the names Cloud thinks of are... Marlene and Denzel and that pesky Tifa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay, time for some screenshots, I guess. I couldn't find AC myself, so I had to search the screenshot online, which means it's not as good quality.

AC shot, ACC shot 1, ACC shot 2-door closed, door open. Kids' room ACC, room at the top of the stairs?. Kid's room from the same angle we should see through the door in the ACC shot if it really is the same room.

The kid's room is definitely the room right at the top of the second set of stairs. For example

Spoiler: This shot

shows a Brown framed picture- with apparent light flare on the actual image with primarily white above a blue unframed picture, with curtians to the right. Also a bunny.

Spoiler: This image, for comparison

shows the framed picture with largely white background, the unframed and still blueish even in the dark picture below, and the curtains to the right. The bunny is now covered up by a Chocobo.

Further, and I just noticed this details

Spoiler: The second shot you showed us

reveals what look to be lamp covers, but which are also visible to the lower left of Cloud in the picture of the kid's room in the dark.

I guess I'm wrong, I'm sorry. And I guess I'm a nitpicker but I say the pictures on the wall are different. One has a flower and a white frame like most of the pictures in the Seventh Heaven while the one at the top of the stairs (?) doesn't.

The Kid's room show you showed us would be of the opposite wall than that seen through the door, though.

There are too many differences for me to just say they are the same room. Anyway, that's me being a nitpicker (and SE probably not caring as much about the details) and as said, I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I'd hate it if my post is reduced to "wrong" just because of one mistake, so I prefer to clarify.

Well, we're only taking issue with the particular mistake.

On that point, I always thought it was: Kids' room at the left, corridor, Cloud's office at the left too, stairs to the right, unknown room in front of the stairs and Cloud's office, and the corridor to the right. Which made sense of why did Reno and Rude put Cloud and Tifa in the kid's room, since it would be the easiest one to reach. But, that's my own interpretation of the layout, so I can't support it.

Well, Cloud's office is the first door at the top of the first set of stairs, so where would the Kid's room be going exactly?

 

[Anastar]

Gym Leader Devil

Even if it's Marlene saying it, why would she call herself part of a family that Barret didn't belong to? Marlene and Barret have been family for years - I doubt that she would suddenly just leave him out of it.

As a father who's child lives with a family separate from my own, I find your choice of words somewhat insulting.

Well, you shouldn't - since the point I was making is that Barret is still Marlene's father, and therefore Marlene would still consider Barret part of her family.

She's been my little one for more than a decade. That does not make me a part of her family with her brother, mother, and "other father".

Does that mean your daughter doesn't consider you her father? You're actually talking about a completely different situation, since no divorce has taken place here. Barret is just leaving Marlene with Tifa and Cloud while he's gone for awhile. Tifa took care of Marlene for Barret while they were in Midgar, too.

Nor does Marlene declaring she will be a good child for her family of Cloud and Tifa (and eventually Denzel when he shows up) mean Barret has to be a member of THAT family as well. Nor does her relationship with her new family invalidate her relationship to Barret. Caps'ing for emphasis: YOU CAN HAVE MORE THAN ONE FAMILY, YET LIVE WITH JUST ONE.

Okay, except you are talking about a completely different situation. Marlene still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. She doesn't call Cloud "Daddy", does she?

You also forget that Marlene invites Cloud into the family:

“A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud)

Marlene says she'll put Cloud in OUR family. Therefore, Marlene sees a family existing before Cloud is part of it. What family would Marlene be talking about? Marlene and Tifa? or Marlene, Barret, and Tifa? I think Marlene, Barret, and Tifa is much more likely, since Marlene wouldn't exclude Barret.

Then Barret says, "Unite the family's strength and keep at it."Would he tell Marlene to unite the family strength if he wasn't part of it?

Ummm... he loves his daughter, he cares about his friends, so yes. Yes he would tell her to help keep them strong. Even as he LEAVES.

Does Barret leaving mean he's not part of the family? My brother lives in his own house in a different city and state, but I still consider him part of my family.

If Barret says "family" and he includes Marlene in that family, then he's obviously part of that family, too.

Is he? Provide some evidence of this. Something better than what I just commented on above, if you can.

For one thing, Marlene calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. She still calls Cloud "Cloud" and Tifa "Tifa".

For another, Marlene invites Cloud into "OUR family" - which means a family exists before Cloud is part of it. Barret is most likely a member of "OUR family", since I doubt the family is just Marlene and Tifa.

For another, Barret leaving doesn't mean he's no longer part of the family.

For another, Tifa took care of Marlene for Barret while they were in the Seventh Heaven in Midgar. Tifa also cooked for them all - sorta like they were friends as close as family. Reminds me of the word "nakama".

IMO, she should know Cloud's feelings if the HA version had happened and things had been as lovey-dovey as you imagine between them. The fact is, there has been absolutely no confirmation that Cloud loves Tifa - plain and simple.

You've never known something, but had a doubt about it? Never? I highly doubt that. Tifa can easily see Cloud growing more distant from her and feel doubt about his feelings. A prior confirmation doesn't stop that and you damn well know it. As for there being no confirmation about Cloud's feelings, such confirmation has been laid out before you several times. So there is none that you are willing to see/admit/acknowledge, but its there all the same.

Sure that's possible. But it's also possible that she had never heard it in the first place - especially since the HA version is optional.

How does it do that? Because one sentence follows the other? I think it would be clearer if it said something like, "Yuffie didn't know that Cloud was being nice to her because he and Tifa had spent the night together."

By this point, I am sure you'd change positions entirely if the line actually turned out to read like that. Now, I actually agree phrasing it as you described would make it clearer. Doesn't mean its in any way murky, of course. Basic comprehension skills allow you to see what was meant by the quote you're saying should be more clear. Unless you don't WANT to comprehend what it means.

I'll be glad to respond when you make a point other than accusing me of poor comprehension skills.

But SE has never said it's the actual outcome. All they did was use one version instead of the other in some places, say that both versions happen in other places, and be non-specific about which version happened in other places.

Yes, being chosen as one of the most important scenes of the game, more important even than the ENDING, is not enough to confirm it as the outcome. Multiple sources all showing it to be the only path that makes any real sense considering the narrative, also not enough. I apologize for doubting you, I see the light now. /sarcasm (for now)

Once again, I'll be glad to respond once there's an actual point to respond to.

Oh, and btw - I guess I should remind you that the ENDING was chosen as an important part of the game to highlight in Reminiscence, probably because the ENDING had something to do with what happened in AC/ACC.

And once again, I point out that I'm asking for the same standard, not different standards. If Shadow is shown again later after the death scene, then we have good reason to think that he survived. Something happened which validates the outcome.

FFVI has no sequels, no followup, no nothing aside from the game itself and the Ultimanias. So how is Shadow's canonical survival different from the HW scene's outcome again? Special pleading should not be used in your response, if you bother to respond at all. Tell me seriously, what's the difference?!

One difference is that the Love Triangle has been argued since 1997, and SE is completely aware of that. SE has also been asked many times who Cloud loves. IF SE chose to answer the mystery of the FFVII Love Triangle, I think they'd make it clearer than making it an optional choice depending on Tifa's affection level with Cloud. SE also had the perfect opportunity to end the Love Triangle in AC/ACC by having Cloud kiss either Aerith or Tifa - which didn't happen.

IMO, the Clerith scenes were the most romantic in AC/ACC - but I don't try to impose my opinion on other people as fact.

I've seen nothing to validate which of the optional HW scenes happened. Everything that happened in FFVII after the HW scene, everything that happened in the novella's, everything that happened in AC/ACC, and everything that happened in DoC is possible regardless of which version of the HW scene a player got.

So, based on what I said above, unless I am very wrong you must now claim Shadow's death is entirely up to the player's choice as well. Because it has LESS validation than Cloti, being as it does not have an entire compilation to draw upon. Yet you have shown no such issues with his survival being canonized by the Ultimania. Again, sounds like special pleading, asking Cloti (focused on the HA HW scene, as if its the be all end all of Cloti proofz) to be held to different standards. And as for you not seeing it, it is obvious to me at this point that you wouldn't see it if the creators hired skywriters to tell you "Cloud and Tifa are a ROMANTIC couple!"

If Shadow's survival is based entirely on what's presented in the Ultimania, then I was misinformed. I was told that Shadow appeared later on in the game.

And I'm beginning to think you need to read my answers more carefully, since you're putting words in my mouth. What I said to Quex was that FFX shows us that Yuna loves Tidus and vice versa in a non-optional scene, not FFX-2.

This has fuck-all to do with Tidus' return from "death" being canon, which WAS the end of X-2. I believe that's an important aspect of what was originally brought up, alongside Shadow's survival.

So I'm pointing out how much it has to do with the solution to the Love Triangle. I'm saying that Yuna and Tidus's love was canonized in FFX in a non-optional scene, and that the outcome of the optional scene in FFX-2 has nothing to do with whether or not Tidus loves Yuna and vice versa. Whether Tidus comes back to life or not has fuck all to do with whether Yuna loves him.

Their status as a couple was referred to in relation to the FtOIL page, and how it covers all the canon couples, but I don't think that's what we were discussing. Someone feel free to correct me if I am forgetting something that came up between now and then.

Yeah, and BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were presented on the FTOIL page. BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were labeled as optional.

That makes BOTH of them optional couples.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, and BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were presented on the FTOIL page. BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were labeled as optional.

That makes BOTH of them optional couples.

No that is not what it says on the page. Read it. That was not how the page or translation was presented, ever. Only the date scene was stated to vary due to player control. This is fact.

And it's seriously getting ridiculous how you keep repeating falsehood as fact now. Stop misrepresenting what the material says, and debate the points that are presented to you fairly. These tactics are dishonest.

The high affection Highwind Scene was never labeled as optional on that page. That is a lie.

 

[Kefka]

Yeah, and BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were presented on the FTOIL page. BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were labeled as optional.

If they wanted to canonize CloTi they wouldn't have included the Aerith date in the first place.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Okay, except you are talking about a completely different situation. Marlene still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. She doesn't call Cloud "Daddy", does she?

Why the fuck would she? Barret is her father. Cloud is a FATHER-FIGURE. Is this really that hard? Seriously?

For one thing, Marlene calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. She still calls Cloud "Cloud" and Tifa "Tifa".

So what? Tifa introduces Marlene as her daughter. And again Cloud isn't a Barret replacement to Marlene. He is a separate father figure.

For another, Barret leaving doesn't mean he's no longer part of the family.

For another, Barret leaving doesn't mean he's no longer Marlene's Father.
FTFY

For another, Tifa took care of Marlene for Barret while they were in the Seventh Heaven in Midgar.

So did Jessie, Wedge and Biggs. Aerith too, and Elmyra. Point?

Tifa also cooked for them all - sorta like they were friends as close as family. Reminds me of the word "nakama".

Listen here people, you only ever cook for your nakama. Not anyone that comes into your bar looking for a meal, only your friends as close as family. And well, duh. No one is arguing that Tifa doesn't love her friends like family. WTH?

but I don't try to impose my opinion on other people as fact.

Since fucking when?

If Shadow's survival is based entirely on what's presented in the Ultimania, then I was misinformed. I was told that Shadow appeared later on in the game.

Sooooo... instead of having substantial facts to validate your own position you're just taking random people's words for it, so long as it supports your argument. Good to know.

Yeah, and BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were presented on the FTOIL page. BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were labeled as optional.

Your pants are on fire.

That makes BOTH of them optional couples

Who are you trying to kid. No one here believes for one minute you think Cloti ever happens. It's a last ditch effort to save the Clerith ship. You can't prove Clerith is canon so you have to fall back to "Well, there is no canon couple..."

Where's the line?

They live together, they have kids. You hear Cloud even SAY Aerith's name? EVER??

 

[Celes Chere]

they wouldn't have included the Aerith date in the first place.

Not.. really. They said that all the dates are optional. Like Xelloss just said, the Highwind scene is never listed as optional. To be honest, the Highwind scene being included is one of Cloud and Tifa's big moments of bonding, sharing their mutual feelings, etc.... if they had wanted to counter that with something Cloud x Aerith, why not list something more iconic than an optional date scene? Why not show her appearing in Cloud's dream before she leaves to The Forgotten City or something like that?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

If they wanted to canonize CloTi they wouldn't have included the Aerith date in the first place.

You can get dates with Barret and Yuffie too. It's called a Red Herring. The entire first disk is a giant rug under your feet...

 

[Elisa Maza]

If they wanted to canonize CloTi they wouldn't have included the Aerith date in the first place.

They aren't showing the Aerith date to say that the LT of the FFVII has an optional outcome. What they are doing, is showing ONE version of the date (the default, if you wish), while pointing out that "Who comes around with the invitation" (for the date) is under PLAYER CONTROL and THAT PICTURE OF THE AERITH DATE IS OPTIONAL.

The caption under the HW scene refers to the characters that share the scene and crystal clear tells us that Cloud "without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

The one talks about players' choice. The other talks about Cloud's actions and feelings.

This has gotten really ridiculous.

 

[Kefka]

You can get dates with Barret and Yuffie too. It's called a Red Herring. The entire first disk is a giant rug under your feet...

Yeah, I know. I'm just thinking, if they wanted us to, without a doubt, accept CloTi as canon, I think they should've at least put the Tifa date. And if the date has such little merit, why did they include it? It makes me wonder.