The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Fairheartstrife]

Yeah, I know. I'm just thinking, if they wanted us to, without a doubt, accept CloTi as canon, I think they should've at least put the Tifa date. And if the date has such little merit, why did they include it? It makes me wonder.

Because they showed us the NON-optional HW scene.

Cloti is canon. If not based on FFVII alone, then compilation cements it. Cloud loves Tifa. Has since he was 9 years old. 2 weeks a messed up Jenova mess with Aerith isn't going to change that. Could Cloud have found Aerith attractive? Absolutely. Interesting? You bet. But in love with her? No. He didn't even know his own self. When he discovers himself--who is at the core of him? Tifa.

Enjoying Clerith is fine. Saying it's on equal footing, when it very clearly isn't, is desperate and bordering on delusional.

ps. Have you played the games? Watched the films? I'm curious. I know you've been to the Clerith forums, but what's your actual source of opinion?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, I know. I'm just thinking, if they wanted us to, without a doubt, accept CloTi as canon, I think they should've at least put the Tifa date. And if the date has such little merit, why did they include it? It makes me wonder.

Okay, did you read the page? It's right here. Look at the caption regarding the date. Please read the page before you respond.

It's just a picture of Aerith's date with Cloud. The text merely says, "VII – Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior."

For Cloud and Tifa, it says:

"VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."

That's the content of that page. It doesn't say anything about Cloud's date with Aerith ever happening. Furthermore it confirms Cloud and Tifa having matching feelings and spending an intimate night together.

The very text of the page marginalizes the dates of FFVII. The actual "love" or "romance" of the game is the Highwind Scene. A Cloud/Tifa scene.

 

[Kefka]

Because they showed us the NON-optional HW scene.

Cloti is canon. If not based on FFVII alone, then compilation cements it. Cloud loves Tifa. Has since he was 9 years old. 2 weeks a messed up Jenova mess with Aerith isn't going to change that. Could Cloud have found Aerith attractive? Absolutely. Interesting? You bet. But in love with her? No. He didn't even know his own self. When he discovers himself--who is at the core of him? Tifa.

Enjoying Clerith is fine. Saying it's on equal footing, when it very clearly isn't, is desperate and bordering on delusional.

ps. Have you played the games? Watched the films? I'm curious. I know you've been to the Clerith forums, but what's your actual source of opinion?

I have indeed played FFVII and watched AC and ACC, multiple times each. I've gotten both HW scenes and all the dates. I've seen things from a CloTi perspective as well as a Clerith's. And I am simply most comfortable with believing in Clerith. If CloTi turns out to be canon, I will accept it. But I won't until SE clearly says, preferrably in text, "The couple FFVII is Tifa and Cloud." I respect your view as well, and I can see why you think it is official, but it is my belief that Clerith is the real deal.
I'm gonna take a break for awhile. It was fun debating with you all.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm going to try very hard not to respond too forcefully here. But, should I fail, let it be known that I hold no ill will to the mod (Mako most likely) who has to deal with me. Either way, giving it my best shot here...

Gym Leader DevilWell, you shouldn't - since the point I was making is that Barret is still Marlene's father, and therefore Marlene would still consider Barret part of her family.

No, you are misrepresenting ME now. I clearly said Marlene is still Barret's kid. Marlene would still consider him HER family. She would NOT automatically consider him CLOUD or TIFA'S family. She can have two families, as I said before.

Does that mean your daughter doesn't consider you her father? You're actually talking about a completely different situation, since no divorce has taken place here. Barret is just leaving Marlene with Tifa and Cloud while he's gone for awhile. Tifa took care of Marlene for Barret while they were in Midgar, too.

Okay, except you are talking about a completely different situation. Marlene still calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. She doesn't call Cloud "Daddy", does she?

You also forget that Marlene invites Cloud into the family:

I am not talking about a COMPLETELY different situation at all. Different yes, but comparable despite the differences. And so you know, there was no divorce in my situation either, you assume as much based on no evidence. As usual. And my kid does consider me her father. She considers her step-father her father as well.

My kid calls me Daddy, and her step-dad is "Daddy-(insert name)". But I am not HIS family, not her mother's exactly, nor her brother's. Of the people in that household, she is the only one who is my family. Similarly, Cloud is like unto a step-dad in nature. He doesn't get the actual title of "Dad" or "Daddy." And, read this bit carefully now ok?: That is not even remotely uncommon in situations where a child has both a father and a step-father.

Marlene says she'll put Cloud in OUR family. Therefore, Marlene sees a family existing before Cloud is part of it. What family would Marlene be talking about?

Since she was talking about something that was being brought up AS SHE SAID IT, I would presume she is talking about the people who would actually be living there. That is, Cloud, Tifa, and herself. I can see you crying foul, claiming that that isn't right because it includes Cloud before she "adds him" to the family. I'll get to that in just a moment.

Marlene and Tifa? or Marlene, Barret, and Tifa? I think Marlene, Barret, and Tifa is much more likely, since Marlene wouldn't exclude Barret.

No, Barret would exclude himself. Which he did. By leaving on a journey and leaving his daughter with Cloud and Tifa. His hands aren't any cleaner than Dyne's/he needs to atone/someone's gotta go into those monster dens, etc etc.

Does Barret leaving mean he's not part of the family? My brother lives in his own house in a different city and state, but I still consider him part of my family.

And you tell ME that my relationship with my daughter and her family is completely different? Take a look in the mirror, your standards are shifting again.

He is still Marlene's family. He is not part of Cloud and Tifa's family. Despite being a friend who has been LIKE family, he is not an actual family member in their nuclear family unit. THERE is the difference between his situation and your brother's. Your brother is a part of your nuclear family, no matter where he goes and what he does. It is not the same for Barret, the only person in THIS PARTICULAR FAMILY he has such a relationship with is Marlene.

For one thing, Marlene calls Barret "Daddy" in ACC. She still calls Cloud "Cloud" and Tifa "Tifa".

I touched on this above, but now that Tifa's been added into the mix I should point out that she was not always a part of Tifa's family. She was a co-worker/friend's kid when they met, and at that time Tifa introduced herself by name. It is, again, not uncommon for a kid to continue calling someone by their first name if they are not said child's BIRTH or LIFELONG PARENT. Some kids do switch to "mom" or "dad" but some do not. YOU ARE PROVING NOTHING WITH THIS.

For another, Marlene invites Cloud into "OUR family" - which means a family exists before Cloud is part of it. Barret is most likely a member of "OUR family", since I doubt the family is just Marlene and Tifa.

You never stopped to consider anything other than how to make this fit your interpretation did it? If you DID consider anything else, it was in the mental state of "Potential attacks on my argument" as opposed to "alternate possibilities, am I wrong about this?" I am sure.

Considering Marlene has been able to tend bar since she was (could be wrong here, but I wanna say) 4, lived in the slums for a fair bit (with Edge being a step up, but still a rough place at times), and had freakin' Barret raising her up till CoT (discounting a brief time spent with Elmyra), is it any wonder that she might possibly just be TEASING CLOUD, and in fact he was a part of said family in her mind all along?! Forgive the run on sentence there, but seriously?

For another, Barret leaving doesn't mean he's no longer part of the family.

It means he ain't there. Which in turn means someone else is raising his kid. Put that together with the fact that he's never been included in the family in any quote, ever, as demonstrated above. Said quotes DO instead refer exclusively to Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel. By name, mind you. It is neither vague nor difficult to grasp in any other way, unless you just don't WANT to grasp it. You do not have a leg to stand on here, seriously you should quit. Not while you're ahead, since you're NOT, but before you embarrass yourself further. Like Tres before me, I am ALREADY embarrassed for you.

For another, Tifa took care of Marlene for Barret while they were in the Seventh Heaven in Midgar. Tifa also cooked for them all - sorta like they were friends as close as family. Reminds me of the word "nakama".

You're gonna need a Gomu Gomu no Mi if you're gonna be stretching for something, ANYTHING to support yourself this hard. Yes, Tifa took care of Marlene at least part of the time. And at least part of the time they LEFT THE KID ALONE TO RUN THE FUCKING BAR. And yes, Tifa did cook for everyone at least part of the time, we know this from the comments made by the Fatty McFatass of AVALANCHE's NPC squad. And that is no shock, since she runs a bar she must have some domestic skills. I infer from the fact that the 7th Heaven in Edge serves both food and drinks that the second establishment by that name probably does too. Ergo, cooking = necessary job skill. Now, tell me this... how in the nine hells does her relationship to Marlene and AVALANCHE, be it NAKAMA or NOT, have any bearing on whether Barret is part of the family that is referenced only as Tifa/Cloud/Marlene/Denzel?!

Oh, it does not. Nevermind, I figured that out myself.


Anyway, enough of this. I am going to just respond to what was addressed to me and stop there. It seems for the best to me

 

[Makoeyes987]

And I am simply most comfortable with believing in Clerith. If CloTi turns out to be canon, I will accept it. But I won't until SE clearly says, preferrably in text, "The couple FFVII is Tifa and Cloud." I respect your view as well, and I can see why you think it is official, but it is my belief that Clerith is the real deal.
I'm gonna take a break for awhile. It was fun debating with you all.

See?

This is called Special Pleading. An extreme rhetorical fallacy.

Square Enix will never ever come out and say such a thing. It's ridiculous to expect, and redundant for S-E to do. They never came out and said Yuna/Tidus is canon, or "Locke/Celes" is canon. So it's the pinnacle of silly to expect them to make some bizarre special exception for FFVII.

These type of stupid assertions and bases for "canon" are extremely dishonest and having them used in a debate makes a mockery of the definition. There's no respecting a view, when you turn to that.

The double standards here need to freaking stop.

 

[Marle]

I have indeed played FFVII and watched AC and ACC, multiple times each. I've gotten both HW scenes and all the dates. I've seen things from a CloTi perspective as well as a Clerith's. And I am simply most comfortable with believing in Clerith. If CloTi turns out to be canon, I will accept it. But I won't until SE clearly says, preferrably in text, "The couple FFVII is Tifa and Cloud." I respect your view as well, and I can see why you think it is official, but it is my belief that Clerith is the real deal.
I'm gonna take a break for awhile. It was fun debating with you all.

Quick question for you; do you believe clerith is the canon couple or that everything is up to player interpretation? I couldn't quite understand your stance on it with your posts and I'm just wondering...It would help make your points a bit clearer.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If Shadow's survival is based entirely on what's presented in the Ultimania, then I was misinformed. I was told that Shadow appeared later on in the game.

You've never played FF6, then?
Shadow, IF HE LIVES, will appear later in the game.
If he dies, vanishes from the game entirely.
His survival was confirmed by his inclusion in a story summary after the incident in which he can die, a moment that is listed as a deviation.

So I'm pointing out how much it has to do with the solution to the Love Triangle. I'm saying that Yuna and Tidus's love was canonized in FFX in a non-optional scene, and that the outcome of the optional scene in FFX-2 has nothing to do with whether or not Tidus loves Yuna and vice versa. Whether Tidus comes back to life or not has fuck all to do with whether Yuna loves him.

Question I've asked a few times now, to other people- What in the name of fuck does being in a Love Triangle have to do with it?
Why does being part of a love triangle change level of evidence required? Why is this a salient factor in determining the flow of the narrative?

Yeah, and BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were presented on the FTOIL page. BOTH CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa were labeled as optional.

That makes BOTH of them optional couples.

As Mako noted, this is a lie. The page does not label it as optional. Even p232 does not label it as optional. p232 says that under certain conditions, something will happen, but p232 also says that's what happens in the narrative. It is your special pleading- without any evidence and in spite of evidencecontrary to evidence- that what p232 says happens in one version and just plain happened actually happens in both versions. You then add additional special pleading on top of this to argue that even though the feelings confirmation happens in both versions, it's not about romance in one of those, even though the page which tells us about romance is entirely version agnostic.

Yeah, I know. I'm just thinking, if they wanted us to, without a doubt, accept CloTi as canon, I think they should've at least put the Tifa date. And if the date has such little merit, why did they include it? It makes me wonder.

Because it is an example of an attempted romantic confession by one of three people. Neglecting to mention it on a page discussing scenes about trying to confess one's love would be a major oversight.
And to be frank, what S-E did do for C/T was tell us that, as far as the story is concerned, Cloud and Tifa spent that night under the highwind confirming mutual romantic feelings without using words. After this Cloud said he could succeed where previously he failed because of Tifa at his side, in a way somehow different than she'd been by his side before. After this they move in together, and their friend moves out immediately. Said friend refers to the two of them being together, and another friend comments that she's wearing the pants in their relationship.
I can- and often have- gone on endlessly listing the moments post FF7 which synthesize into the case for Cloud and Tifa having a romantic relationship before and after Advent Children. Not a perfect one, perhaps, but no one's asking for perfection except the detractors.

See?

This is called Special Pleading. An extreme rhetorical fallacy.

Square Enix will never ever come out and say such a thing. It's ridiculous to expect, and redundant for S-E to do. They never came out and said Yuna/Tidus is canon, or "Locke/Celes" is canon. So it's the pinnacle of silly to expect them to make some bizarre special exception for FFVII.

In point of fact, the closest they've gotten is the very FTOIL page itself.
Then there are characters like Wakka and Lulu, who are obvious, but who have never been 'said' to be romantically involved. In fact, Tres, correct me if I am wrong, but have Laguna and Raine ever been 'officially' declared as married and Squall's parents? I mean, by the standards demanded in this thread, I don't think they'd count, despite the narrative very obviously indicating their actuality.

These type of stupid assertions and bases for "canon" are extremely dishonest and having them used in a debate makes a mockery of the definition. There's no respecting a view, when you turn to that.

The double standards here need to freaking stop.

This is quite true, and Kefka, though you are far from the worst offender with logical fallacies, you are committing them, though at your age, it's quite forgivable for your first offense. Please, do read up on logical fallacies so you can avoid them in the future.
You should also understand the difference between preference/enjoyment and narrative reality.
In this thread, we are primarily concerned with that which is most likely and definite, being very precise about the facts, and determining the meat and bones of the story, rather than the flavor and seasonings of our preference.

 

[Dashell]

TO those saying "It's up to the player" and such... I'm still waiting for this:

Can you provide me with ONE quote that says Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith (past, present or future)? And I'm talking they specified it as romantic (So Cloud having his own undying feelings doesn't count here). I can name about 5 or 6 for Cloti, so if it really is supposed to be on even grounds, you should be able to have about 5 for Clerith. But I've yet to see even one posted. Does anyone have one?

And Anastar, I don't think you have a correct understanding of the word nakama. You seem to be under the impression it has only one meaning despite me telling you many times that it's truly a context based word. I mean yeah you know one of the definitions but please don't say something reminds you of a Japanese word when all you have to go on is what your friends told you. You should do the research yourself. So to say something like that is a little insulting to those of us who have spent time studying the language.

EDIT
Also on the family, since some are saying "Barret is Marlene's father so he's part of the family obviously cause Marlene wouldn't exclude him."... so what about Denzel? He doesn't even know Barret. Can we use his point of view, or just Marlene's? Would Denzel see Barret as his father, or Cloud?... (I'll give you a hint, the Ultimania says Cloud )

EDIT II:

So I'm pointing out how much it has to do with the solution to the Love Triangle. I'm saying that Yuna and Tidus's love was canonized in FFX in a non-optional scene, and that the outcome of the optional scene in FFX-2 has nothing to do with whether or not Tidus loves Yuna and vice versa. Whether Tidus comes back to life or not has fuck all to do with whether Yuna loves him.

And the only one who ever implied otherwise was you. You do realize that right? I don't even know why this keeps getting brought up. NO ONE is arguing with you here. I said Tidus comes back at the end of X-2 and that it was canon. I was pointing out an optional scene that had a canon outcome, then asking you how we knew it was canon without Square saying "THIS IS CANON!", then you started talking about how Yuna loves him. I wasn't talking about that... no one was.. Can we move on please?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

TO those saying "It's up to the player" and such... I'm still waiting for this:

Can you provide me with ONE quote that says Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith (past, present or future)? And I'm talking they specified it as romantic (So Cloud having his own undying feelings doesn't count here). I can name about 5 or 6 for Cloti, so if it really is supposed to be on even grounds, you should be able to have about 5 for Clerith. But I've yet to see even one posted. Does anyone have one?

You know the answer to this, dear.

And Anastar, I don't think you have a correct understanding of the word nakama. You seem to be under the impression it has only one meaning despite me telling you many times that it's truly a context based word. I mean yeah you know one of the definitions but please don't say something reminds you of a Japanese word when all you have to go on is what your friends told you. You should do the research yourself. So to say something like that is a little insulting to those of us who have spent time studying the language.

Rawr.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I won't presume to speculate about every Clerith supporter here, of course. That'd be rude. But in Anastar's case I find it highly likely that if she had such a quote as you requested Quex, she'd do nothing but cut and paste it over and over

 

[Dashell]

And Anastar, I don't think you have a correct understanding of the word nakama. You seem to be under the impression it has only one meaning despite me telling you many times that it's truly a context based word. I mean yeah you know one of the definitions but please don't say something reminds you of a Japanese word when all you have to go on is what your friends told you. You should do the research yourself. So to say something like that is a little insulting to those of us who have spent time studying the language.

BTW this goes for everyone. Don't just take your friend's word for it. in fact, don't even take my word for it. Do your own research. Try to find the answers yourselves. it's so much more rewarding. It's just frustrating when someone comes in and tells me a Japanese translation or word is wrong or means this or that, and it's always from a "friend" who doesn't post here and we can't talk to them about it. So try to find answers yourselves.

And always double check your sources. This isn't just about Japanese, this is about a lot of the arguments in here. I've seen many people need to be corrected because they took so and so's word for it and ended up being dead wrong about something. So always double check sources and try to find answers yourselves. Trust me, it makes things a lot easier.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, this sucks. The page decided to reload right before I finished a goddamn post.

Anyways, in addition to not just taking people's words, don't just trust your memory either. It's quite possible to misremember sources or mix up quotes. So periodically recheck sources and make sure your source says what you say it says.

Also, like it needs repeating there is no quote or reference saying you Cloud romantically loves Aerith, even optionally. Even on the date, he's officially oblivious to her overtures.
Even if C/T is optional, C/A is not on the same footing in terms of evidence.

Lastly for now, an image to try and get the idea home that Marlene's family, Barret's family, and Cloud's family can all overlap without being the same.

Spoiler: Thank your, Mr. Venn

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well illustrated, Ryu. Venn diagrams literally never run out of practical applications.

And well said, Que. If I could put a gold border around your post so it stood out more, I would.

 

[Zee]

There's several quotes from Tifa's perspective about how she views Cloud and Aeris' relationship. Her "complicated" feelings combined with her noticing them building their "private world" should be more than a clue in that Cloud's feelings for Aeris were mutual, or at least starting to be.

 

[Zee]

Tifa's main purpose as a character is to give us an insight into Cloud's head. Not trusting her of all people to know how Cloud thinks and feels is completely contradictory imo.

iirc Tifa's "complicated" feelings towards the Cloud/Aeris relationship even last into the time of CoT/AC, in which case baseless jealously wouldn't make sense since Aeris is dead and Cloud is living with her.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

There's several quotes from Tifa's perspective about how she views Cloud and Aeris' relationship. Her "complicated" feelings combined with her noticing them building their "private world" should be more than a clue in that Cloud's feelings for Aeris were mutual, or at least starting to be.

Bolding the part I agree with. Aerith his special to him. Believably, he could have been attracted to her. Having said that, the LS sequence pretty neatly shuts the door on 'could haves'--even if Aerith had lived. And although Tifa is good insight into Cloud, there's a REALLY good chance that her perspective is skewed by her own interests. Removing that from the equation is silly. Aerith is flirty, and forthright, and obvious in her infatuation--everything that Tifa is not. It's only natural to be self-doubting in the face of that. She even admits to it on the gondola.

To sum up: Assuming Cloud has absolute zero interest in the hot girl chasing him, is silly, but so is assuming that the OTHER girl is totally unbiased and clinically observing.

Carry on

 

[Marle]

Tifa's main purpose as a character is to give us an insight into Cloud's head. Not trusting her of all people to know how Cloud thinks and feels is completely contradictory imo.

iirc Tifa's "complicated" feelings towards the Cloud/Aeris relationship even last into the time of CoT/AC, in which case baseless jealously wouldn't make sense since Aeris is dead and Cloud is living with her.

Tifa is really insecure. Like, super insecure. But I don't blame her one bit for being wary with Cloud at the time of CoT/AC because he starts distancing himself, even before geostigma.

I always felt that Tifa was jealous of the cleris relationship because Aerith was just better at being honest with her feelings. Aerith didn't need two, three or x amount of years to confront Cloud about how she felt. And seeing as how clueless the kid is, he needs a girl who is more forthright than shy and Tifa knows this.

I'm still a bit on the fence on whether or not I'd say Cloud loves Aerith romantically, but I'm not completely opposed to the idea. Tifa being jealous means there was definitely something there, for sure. But whether it's a romantic love, I just don't know. :\ Although I am leaning towards the theory Aki presented as it being possible he loves both.

Meh, this is all opinion, though. :T

 

[Zee]

I get that Tifa's insecure, but the fact that she knows Cloud the best and in general is good at reading people makes me give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his emotions. I'm not saying she's unbaised, but I don't think she'd be jealous of their relationship without sufficient cause.

Although I am leaning towards the theory Aki presented as it being possible he loves both.

I think that everyone is in love with everyone tbh

 

[Ryushikaze]

There's several quotes from Tifa's perspective about how she views Cloud and Aeris' relationship. Her "complicated" feelings combined with her noticing them building their "private world" should be more than a clue in that Cloud's feelings for Aeris were mutual, or at least starting to be.

Well, those 'complicated feelings' did start from day one of Cloud and Aerith knowing each other (Day 2, technically, but within the first 24 span of knowing each other, I think), so I'm not sure how much you can say how much is down to 'She's stealing my man' vs 'Hoshit, I wish I could be so open' (She did express much this sentiment on her date with Cloud- that Aerith could come right out and say what she wanted) and other such factors.

Regardless, I'm not talking about what we can infer here- remember, we're apparently in hand holding press release requiring mode in the thread- I'm talking about what we've been told.

While we can infer that Cloud was attracted to Aerith, nothing on the subject has been said of how serious he was towards her. Thinking she's hot is a very different kettle of fish than having serious romantic intentions towards her.
We've been told she has them towards him. We've been told Tifa has them for him. We've been told that Cloud was oblivious to both of them.
But we're told Cloud becomes aware of Tifa's romantic feelings towards him as she does his, and they confirm these later. Even if the confirmation is 'optional,' the awareness isn't.
Nothing on the subject of Cloud's romantic feelings or even whether there are any for Aerith can be found.

In short, your point is valid, but it's also, no offense, irrelevant, since we're talking what's been said (since that seems to be the demanded standard) rather than what can be deduced.
If we want to go to the standard of rational deduction, that's perfectly fine. I prefer it. It just doesn't seem to be what Anastar et. all are willing to consider in this thread.

 

[Anastar]

I meant to say something about this yesterday, since I got PM's yesterday from both Discord and Sesc about how people were saying that the quote from Nomura here:

http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

wasn't in November, but in October. Okay, my bad - BUT it doesn't change anything.

The whole point that Nomura said it in November is that he said it AFTER the release of Advent Children in September. Well, guess what? If he actually said it in October, then he still said it AFTER the release of Advent Children in September.

That means that Nomura's not lying about an upcoming release, like you say Nomura's done in the past. That's irrelevant, because Advent Children is not an upcoming release if Nomura said it in October. Advent Children's already been released.

So why is Nomura saying that he doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are romantically involved in the two years prior to AC if the HA version of the HW scene is canon, like you say it is?

The obvious answer is: the HA version of the HW scene is NOT canon.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Not that what I say gets replied to, but here goes...

Nomura DOESN'T give a shit. He doesn't care. He is, yes, a notorious trollololol, but he really doesn't give 2 shits about the LTD--period. Nojima--you know him, the main writer, the guy who came up with the idea for Advent Children...yeah, him. He SAYS implicitly that Cloud is WITH Tifa. You be sure to tell me when HE says something like that and I may give it some weight.

Also, (and I may be reading this wrong) the question isn't 'have Cloud and Tifa been in a relationship for 2 years.', it's he's (Nomura) has been asked for years following the game if they were. Which, he states, he has no idea. Which, he probably doesn;t for the aforementioned reason of he doesn't give a shit. He's NOT the freaking writer.

Also, 2006, Nomura, apparently beaten over the head by Nojima enough, declares Tifa to be someone's sweetheart. You know, if you really want to have the most current quotes and all....

Speaking of, I'm still waiting for the CLoud loves Aerith quotes or creator statement. Anyone?? Beuller? Beuller?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There's several quotes from Tifa's perspective about how she views Cloud and Aeris' relationship. Her "complicated" feelings combined with her noticing them building their "private world" should be more than a clue in that Cloud's feelings for Aeris were mutual, or at least starting to be.

I wouldn't go as far as to say his feelings were mutual (i.e. to the extent hers had gone; "koibito status," if you will), but mutual interest? Definitely.

Then there are characters like Wakka and Lulu, who are obvious, but who have never been 'said' to be romantically involved. In fact, Tres, correct me if I am wrong, but have Laguna and Raine ever been 'officially' declared as married and Squall's parents?

Forgot to reply to you about this last night.

The U20 Ultimanias actually do come out and say that Laguna and Raine are Squall's parents, yes. And, in Wakka and Lulu's case, the International+Last Mission Ultimania has a timeline of events between X and X-2 that says they got married half a year after X ended.

I meant to say something about this yesterday, since I got PM's yesterday from both Discord and Sesc about how people were saying that the quote from Nomura here:

http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

wasn't in November, but in October. Okay, my bad - BUT it doesn't change anything.

The whole point that Nomura said it in November is that he said it AFTER the release of Advent Children in September. Well, guess what? If he actually said it in October, then he still said it AFTER the release of Advent Children in September.

This may be a little nitpicky, but we really have no idea when that interview took place. Let's say the magazine was published in early October (it was sometime before October 10th, at any rate) -- that doesn't tell us when the actual interview took place.

Material published in magazines is put together weeks, sometimes months ahead of time. (EDIT: Correction. It's clear from the fact that the interviewer had seen the film already that the interview must have been conducted after the release of Advent Children.)

And, in any case, you're still not addressing the more relevant notions that -- even if Nomura said that after AC's release -- he's not got the final say (Nojima trumps him on matters of writing, given Nojima's the actual writer) and he can also change his mind. Which he apparently did given that he said Tifa is somebody's koibito in regard to her role in the film.

 

[Roger]

There's several quotes from Tifa's perspective about how she views Cloud and Aeris' relationship. Her "complicated" feelings combined with her noticing them building their "private world" should be more than a clue in that Cloud's feelings for Aeris were mutual, or at least starting to be.

Tifa is really insecure. Like, super insecure. But I don't blame her one bit for being wary with Cloud at the time of CoT/AC because he starts distancing himself, even before geostigma.

I always felt that Tifa was jealous of the cleris relationship because Aerith was just better at being honest with her feelings. Aerith didn't need two, three or x amount of years to confront Cloud about how she felt. And seeing as how clueless the kid is, he needs a girl who is more forthright than shy and Tifa knows this.

I'm perplexed. Aerith's admittence of her real feelings was "I wish could meet the real you. Too bad, so sad." *dies*

Their feelings were mutual? According to who? They never really met each other until AC.

Tifa's quotes on Cloud and Aerith building their own world together? Can I see these quotes? Cause I'm pretty the only Tifa quote that pertains that is "No, [Aerith] send [Denzel] to us (or actually, me considering I met Denzel before you did)."

Cloud moving into the church, shortly before he expected to die, I don't see how that is building a private world together with Aerith.

Aerith being busy fighting Sephiroth at the time.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Forgot to reply to you about this last night.

The U20 Ultimanias actually do come out and say that Laguna and Raine are Squall's parents, yes. And, in Wakka and Lulu's case, the International+Last Mission Ultimania has a timeline of events between X and X-2 that says they got married half a year after X ended.

Good to know. Still, both were obvious long before 'explicit' confirmation. Still, 6 years to confirm on Laguna and Raine. Egads. I think I ran into someone not a few months back who thought Irvine was their kid, not Squall.
When did the INTL ulti for 10-2 come out? I'm curious how long it took them to confirm the obvious.

This may be a little nitpicky, but we really have no idea when that interview took place. Let's say the magazine was published in early October (it was sometime before October 10th, at any rate) -- that doesn't tell us when the actual interview took place.

Material published in magazines is put together weeks, sometimes months ahead of time.

This is going off of memory, but I recall the interview being sourced to some time before the film. It might even be a reprint.

And, in any case, you're still not addressing the more relevant notions that -- even if Nomura said that after AC's release -- he's not got the final say (Nojima trumps him on matters of writing, given Nojima's the actual writer) and he can also change his mind. Which he apparently did given that he said Tifa is somebody's koibito in regard to her role in the film.

In short, even if Nomura Circa '05 said what you want him to, Nomura circa 06, Nojima circa 06, Nojima circa 2010, etc. all trump that. Preponderance and freshness of the evidence.

I'm perplexed. Aerith's admittence of her real feelings was "I wish could meet the real you. Too bad, so sad." *dies*

Their feelings were mutual? According to who? They never really met each other until AC.

Tifa's quotes on Cloud and Aerith building their own world together? Can I see these quotes? Cause I'm pretty the only Tifa quote that pertains that is "No, [Aerith] send [Denzel] to us (or actually, me considering I met Denzel before you did)."

Cloud moving into the church, shortly before he expected to die, I don't see how that is building a private world together with Aerith.

Aerith being busy fighting Sephiroth at the time.

It's Tifa's U10 profile, and there are two distinct 'complex feelings' One applies to FF7, when Aerith is a great friend and person but also trying to get into Cloud's pants.
The other applies to AC/C when Aerith is a fondly remembered friend, but also the reason Cloud is destroying himself in guilt.

 

[Marle]

Yup, I remember a quote about Cloud and Aerith building their own world together. Pretty sure it was pertaining to the time they were together in FF7. Tifa is evidently jealous of this. I'm on my phone though and therefore, too lazy to actually pull out that quote atm. :T