The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[The Twilight Mexican]

If that's not asshole, douchebag behavior (calling your FAMILY while visiting your lover) I don't know what is...

Unless you and the missus have an arrangement, and you're just calling home to check in.

Just saying.

It's not a contradiction I'm just not sure how to word it. Marlene is the 4th person. I just really don't know how to word the translation, WHICH IS WHY I WISH TRES WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT IT, TRES... TRES ARE YOU LISTENING?

Maybe.

I'll check on it shortly.

 

[Sesc]

No, he said that he was asked about Cloud and Tifa two years after FFVII was released. I mean think about it, it makes no sense for someone to ask Nomura, "Were Cloud and Tifa in a romantic relationship for two years?" Why would someone ask that? They would most likely ask, "Were Cloud and Tifa in a relationship after FFVII?" and he's saying for two years after FFVII was released, he was asked this and he doens't know cause he doesn't care.

Again he's saying, "I was asked this for two years after FFVII was released." I mean honestly, you could go up to Nomura and ask "Does Cloud have blonde hair." and he'd give an answer like this. I know he would, it's just who he is. Just because he says he wants you to come to your own conclusions doesn't mean they don't have a canon set in stone. He just doesn't care if you disagree with said canon. But in this topic, we're trying to discuss canon, right?

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]I'm pretty sure Nomura is saying that he doesn't know if Tifa and Cloud were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC. To clear things up, this is roughly how the interview went:

Nomura was initially asked a question about Sephiroth's love life:

「ところで、セフィロスは今まで何人の女の子と付き合ったことがあるんですか？」
"By the way, up until now how many girls has Sephiroth gone out with?"

He responds by saying:

「スゴイ質問だなぁ。考えたこともないですね。正直、僕は誰と誰が付き合っているとかっていうのは、どうでもいいんですよね。」

"That's a great question... I haven't really thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who goes out with whom."
​

Then he says:

「ゲームや映像で描かれていないところは、ファンの方々が好きに想像して楽しんでもらったほうがいいと思ってます。想像の余地があるもののほうが終わったあ とに友達と話していて楽しいですし、想像の余地があるもののほうが終わったあとに友達と話していて楽しいですし」

"What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like, and after that you can enjoy discussing about it with your friends"

​

And follows it up with:

「たとえばティファとクラウドがACまでの2年間に恋愛関係にあったのか？とかよく聞かれたりもしますが、僕は知らないです。」
"For example, I often get asked if Tifa and Cloud were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC -- but I don't know."

Tifa and Cloud's relationship in the time after FFVII up until AC -- similarly to Sephiroth's love life -- is not explored in the franchise. There's really no material covering it. So Nomura is saying that Tifa and Cloud's relationship in the time between FFVII and AC is purely up to speculation.

I hope that made sense and wasn't too confusing...

Cheers.

Edit:

Left out a line of the interview...

Once again, for easier reference, the source is here: http://ff7-material.jugem.jp/?eid=2086

And the FlareGamer article for comparison: http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=109&more=1#ixzz0Q7xkVJPB

​

 

[Dashell]

it does make sense but the translation I have been using is, "I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue." Which is different from yours. But I do see the word "AC" in there now and it's cleared up, so thanks.

BTW you translate Japanese?

Tifa and Cloud's relationship in the time after FFVII up until AC -- similarly to Sephiroth's love life -- is not explored in the franchise. There's really no material covering it. So Nomura is saying that Tifa and Cloud's relationship in the time between FFVII and AC is purely up to speculation.

The UO covered it a bit actually. But it has a whole section on the affection rating thingy.


when was the UO released? was it before or after AC? I thought it was after but I'm afraid to say for sure

 

[Sesc]

Yeah, I read that Flaregamer article, and I can see how you took it as Nomura saying that he got asked that question two years after FFVII. <--- Nvm, Flaregamer pretty much spelled out that Nomura said he was asked two years after FFVII ended. Though, I'm not sure if they're trying to say it's two years after FFVII was released or the events in the two years after FFVII

Not to sound condescending or anything, but I think my translation with that line is a bit more accurate, considering that the context of the question is about Sephiroth's love life -- aforementioned, something that isn't explored in the franchise, similarly to Tifa and Cloud's relationship in the two years between FFVII and AC.

Edit: And yeah, I translated it -- somewhat roughly, but meh.

The UO covered it a bit actually. But it has a whole section on the affection rating thingy.

when was the UO released? was it before or after AC? I thought it was after but I'm afraid to say for sure

To be honest, I actually haven't read the UO. But yeah, I don't have any idea when UO was released.

Does the UO cover any events related to Tifa and Cloud's relationship in between FFVII and AC o_o?

 

[Dashell]

See this is what I was saying before, always double check sources and don't just take someone's word for it. Some people may have felt I was directing this only at Cleriths but I wasn't. As Sesc here just demonstrated we've found out that

1. The interview was released AFTER AC
2. Nomura WAS speaking about the time between FFVII and AC.

Two points I personally have argued against before. Now I just look silly because I didn't check my sources

 

[Vendel]

See this is what I was saying before, always double check sources and don't just take someone's word for it.

But isn't that exactly what you are doing?

Two points I personally have argued against before. Now I just look silly because I didn't check my sources

And what is this source? Some interview that supposedly shows up on a website that supposedly is from a magazine?

Brought to us by....who?

This isn't exactly the Ultimania or the Reunion Files.

 

[Dashell]

But isn't that exactly what you are doing?

Except that he posted the Japanese text and I looked it over with the limited knowledge I have and I happen to agree with his translation.

And what is this source? Some interview that supposedly shows up on a website that supposedly is from a magazine?

Brought to us by....who?

This isn't exactly the Ultimania or the Reunion Files.

I'm sorry Vendel but just



Really? Before it was "That was before AC!" and now that it's proved to NOT be before AC you are saying it might not be trustworthy?


really?

 

[Vendel]

Except that he posted the Japanese text and I looked it over with the limited knowledge I have and I happen to agree with his translation.


I'm sorry Vendel but just



Really? Before it was "That was before AC!" and now that it's proved to NOT be before AC you are saying it might not be trustworthy?


really?

The point seems to have passed you by Q. I am not goign to swallow as fact something that someone tells me about from some 4th or 5th hand source. Like I said this isn't the Reunion Files or the Ultimania.

And Q I know for a fact I have expressed a similar opinion on this very subject more than once for at least a couple of years now. Probably since the first time it was brought to my attention.

 

[Dashell]

So if I got a scan from the magazine would that fix things?

EDIT
quick question

&#20693;&#12399;&#30693;&#12425;&#12394;&#12356;&#12391;&#12377;

Does the &#30693;&#12425;&#12394;&#12356; imply he doesn't know cause he doesn't care? Rikichan is telling me "&#30693;&#12425;&#12394;&#12356;" can mean "I don't care." or "I feel nothing."

 

[Ryushikaze]

Could be either. He doesn't care about Sephiroth's love life, and he doesn't care about C/T's love life. Not caring about their love life is a less drastic shift to a year later where he knows about Tifa's role being a beloved, but it can go either way.

We're still arguing about a source that- even if it says exactly what Anastar wishes it said- does not lead to the conclusion she wants to draw from it, seeing as it's contravened by sources 1, 2, and 3 years after it's creation.

The UO came out a week before AC. It contains no information apart from basic promotional blurbs.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I wish someone would ask them about Cloud and Aerith's love life.

"You mean in the game?"
"No...after."
"But...she's dead...?? Fucking westerners..."

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I wish someone would ask them about Cloud and Aerith's love life.

We don't need to, we know they're fucking like rabbits on a weekly basis.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

We don't need to, we know they're fucking like rabbits on a weekly basis.

Never mind.. under the assumption that only Cloud can see/touch her those images would be awkward at best.

But seriously, it never comes up. Cloud is romantically linked--via interview and compilation--to only one woman. Speculation and could haves aside, you'd think, if the creators wanted to validate another option, it would come up, rather frequently. Nojima stating that a relationship with Aerith would also have problems is the closest thing we get to the idea that they even considered it. And 'would have had problems' kind of defeats the idea that they're currently having some spiritual love-fest (physically or not).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Maybe.

I'll check on it shortly.

Sorry for the delay.

&#12513;&#12486;&#12458;&#12458;&#28797;&#23475;&#12398;&#12354;&#12392;&#12399;&#12289;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12392;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12289;&#12381;&#12428;&#12395;&#12487;&#12531;&#12476;&#12523;&#12398;4&#20154;&#12391;&#29983;&#27963;&#12290;

"After the Meteor calamity, the foursome of herself, Cloud, Tifa and Denzel live together."

 

[Ryushikaze]

I wish someone would ask them about Cloud and Aerith's love life.

"You mean in the game?"
"No...after."
"But...she's dead...?? Fucking westerners..."

Never mind.. under the assumption that only Cloud can see/touch her those images would be awkward at best.

But seriously, it never comes up. Cloud is romantically linked--via interview and compilation--to only one woman. Speculation and could haves aside, you'd think, if the creators wanted to validate another option, it would come up, rather frequently. Nojima stating that a relationship with Aerith would also have problems is the closest thing we get to the idea that they even considered it. And 'would have had problems' kind of defeats the idea that they're currently having some spiritual love-fest (physically or not).

Part of the reason is that the people who'd most want to ask about that subject wouldn't like the answer they'd get, and they know it, whether they want to admit it or not.

 

[aerbear]

OH HIYA GUYZ

Two points I personally have argued against before. Now I just look silly because I didn't check my sources

It's hard to check sources when most of us aren't fluent in Japanese
You don't look silly.

"What's not already shown in the games/films -- I think it's better for the fans to enjoy it by imagining it as you like, and after that you can enjoy discussing about it with your friends"

​

And follows it up with:

&#12300;&#12383;&#12392;&#12360;&#12400;&#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12392;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12364;AC&#12414;&#12391;&#12398;2&#24180;&#38291;&#12395;&#24651;&#24859;&#38306;&#20418;&#12395;&#12354;&#12387;&#12383;&#12398;&#12363;&#65311;&#12392;&#12363;&#12424;&#12367;&#32862;&#12363;&#12428;&#12383;&#12426;&#12418;&#12375;&#12414;&#12377;&#12364;&#12289;&#20693;&#12399;&#30693;&#12425;&#12394;&#12356;&#12391;&#12377;&#12290;&#12301;
"For example, I often get asked if Tifa and Cloud were in a romantic relationship in the two years prior to AC -- but I don't know."

Tifa and Cloud's relationship in the time after FFVII up until AC -- similarly to Sephiroth's love life -- is not explored in the franchise. There's really no material covering it. So Nomura is saying that Tifa and Cloud's relationship in the time between FFVII and AC is purely up to speculation.

Wow, that was simple. You're a bamf, dude.
I've failed completely just trying to say that.

And 'would have had problems' kind of defeats the idea that they're currently having some spiritual love-fest

Not to be mean, but to be fair he did say the same about Cloud and Tifa.

Personally I don't think they're having some spiritual love-fest But I think he still might really meet her again someday like he said in the end of FFVII. That's good enough for me

The point seems to have passed you by Q. I am not goign to swallow as fact something that someone tells me about from some 4th or 5th hand source. Like I said this isn't the Reunion Files or the Ultimania.

So if I got a scan from the magazine would that fix things?

So... this debate will be over when we find the scan?
Alright. Where's the group hug?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Not to be mean, but to be fair he did say the same about Cloud and Tifa.

No. He said that they ARE having problems. That's an actual scenario, and one they work though.
A C/A relationship is a hypothetical scenario. As such, it is not happening.

Personally I don't think they're having some spiritual love-fest But I think he still might really meet her again someday like he said in the end of FFVII. That's good enough for me

He already has met her again. And then, once Cloud could live free of guilt, she left again.

So... this debate will be over when we find the scan?
Alright. Where's the group hug?

Even if we find the original page, it doesn't change the more recent preponderance of evidence.

Aerbear, I believe you've a few direct replies you should be answering.

Foursome?

....you know I always wondered about Cloud, giving CPR to that girl in Junon, the date with Yuffie, but Tifa too? Wow.

This one you can't even claim ignorance of, since Off topic posts and frivolous banter are club material, not this thread.

 

[Zee]

Cloud not being a dick=/=Cloud being natural Cloud.

Cloud was not being particularly insensitive at Junon Lower Docks, that didn't stop him from having a full on conversation with a voice in his head. That voice trying to get him to talk to Tifa about why they didn't meet up at Nibelheim the day he first arrived. Disc 1 Cloud may have been nice at times, heroic when not controlled by Sephiroth, but still a complete fabricated persona and the real Cloud was the voice trapped in his head trying to get him to remember why his memories don't make sense the whole time.

Disc 1 Cloud, who doesn't remember stalking Tifa up the mountain, saving her life and remembers being casual but not lovestruck with Tifa when he returned to Nibelheim as SOLDIER First Class (these being Zack's memories) may have fallen in love with Aerith, or Barret or Yuffie, sure. And I prefer think that said persona was assimilated rather then disgarded.

And so, Cloud may have mixed feelings.

Aerith's argument, that she never knew the real Cloud however still stands. She doesn't. She knows this.

Cloud being crazy =\= Cloud not being there at all on disk one. His persona is nothing more than his desire to be someone he wasn't aided by all the crap going on in his body. Seemed to me the voice that was reaching to him the whole time was Cloud himself; rejecting his past isn't the same thing as checking out. We see his subconcious several times, too.

Also I've mentioned this before but having Cloud as nothing but a hollow shell on the first disk would completely defeat the purpose of having such a dramatic event during that time effect him at all, let alone years.

I mean it's not even like you can compare her to Jessie -- another chick who only knew him for a short time and then died -- because Cloud seemed to get over that just fine.

She cares what becomes of him, but she is not in love with him and she is not creating a private world with him

Except there's actual official stuff saying the contrary? Aeris being in love with Cloud is not even
debatable anymore why do people still try....

 

[DrakeClawfang]

That voice always confused me too. I thought it was Zack for some reason, though yeah it could be Cloud's inner self. The odd thing about that theory though is that if Cloud's inner self was the voice speaking to him, how did Sephiroth's manipulations effect him so deeply when obviously just below the surface his true personality and memories were still active?

And agreed, there has to be some part of the true Cloud in that personality. I think that his Disk 1 persona was still Cloud, just him acting out his idealized version of how he wants to be/how he thinks he should be. And as you say, if the persona had no part of the true Cloud in it, Aerith's death probably wouldn't have effected him so much. I think his reaction to her death was the actual true Cloud shining through the fake persona, since IIRC he isn't as emotional any other time up to that point.

(Let's see if this post is allowed or not...)

 

[Zee]

The odd thing about that theory though is that if Cloud's inner self was the voice speaking to him, how did Sephiroth's manipulations effect him so deeply when obviously just below the surface his true personality and memories were still active?

I thought it was the Jenova cells?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

That's true, forgot about those pesky things. But I think Sephiroth's control over Cloud, that is the extent of his control, is inconsistent. I get that Cloud's mental defenses or whatever are stronger after he recovers his true persona, but if Sephiroth can excert such control over Cloud that he can well, control him like a puppet, I don't think his influence would be instantly nullified. Why I have a theory that Sephy caused those hallucinations in AC/C,

But yeah, it's true Sephy was probably tweaking him through the Jenova cells too. Question then is why he wasted time and energy breaking Cloud's false persona when he could have just taken control of him outright again - and if he couldn't, why not?

 

[Zee]

Question then is why he wasted time and energy breaking Cloud's false persona when he could have just taken control of him outright again - and if he couldn't, why not?

I feel like Sephiroth took personal offense that his SUPER SOLIDER GENERAL ass got handed to him by a country bumpkin, hence all the mind games and humiliation.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Ah yes, Sephy's old "pride" excuse (no jab meant at you lemon). I forgot that as well, if he'd stop delighting in torturing and manipulating Cloud and just sliced his head off when he had a clear shot he'd have won two or three times over.

Makes sense though, yeah.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud's true voice and Cloud's waking shell aren't the same. At the time, the shell was in control with the true self patching things below the surface, aware, but not directing the action. But even with the shell in place, Cloud still had will. A will and a resolve that prevented Sephiroth from easily controlling Cloud. That, plus his desire to truly break Cloud without actually understanding the man led to his roundabout actions to break the shell and the will below it.
So, Cloud of Disc 1 IS a shell. Just not an empty one.

Also, Zee, Cloud hadn't given his word to protect Jessie. Cloud's word and failing to keep it is one of the things that we keep coming back to as the thing that most eats him up inside.

 

[Roger]

Cloud being crazy =\= Cloud not being there at all on disk one. His persona is nothing more than his desire to be someone he wasn't aided by all the crap going on in his body. Seemed to me the voice that was reaching to him the whole time was Cloud himself; rejecting his past isn't the same thing as checking out. We see his subconcious several times, too.

Also I've mentioned this before but having Cloud as nothing but a hollow shell on the first disk would completely defeat the purpose of having such a dramatic event during that time effect him at all, let alone years.

I mean it's not even like you can compare her to Jessie -- another chick who only knew him for a short time and then died -- because Cloud seemed to get over that just fine.



Except there's actual official stuff saying the contrary? Aeris being in love with Cloud is not even
debatable anymore why do people still try....

That voice always confused me too. I thought it was Zack for some reason, though yeah it could be Cloud's inner self. The odd thing about that theory though is that if Cloud's inner self was the voice speaking to him, how did Sephiroth's manipulations effect him so deeply when obviously just below the surface his true personality and memories were still active?

And agreed, there has to be some part of the true Cloud in that personality. I think that his Disk 1 persona was still Cloud, just him acting out his idealized version of how he wants to be/how he thinks he should be. And as you say, if the persona had no part of the true Cloud in it, Aerith's death probably wouldn't have effected him so much. I think his reaction to her death was the actual true Cloud shining through the fake persona, since IIRC he isn't as emotional any other time up to that point.

(Let's see if this post is allowed or not...)

That's true, forgot about those pesky things. But I think Sephiroth's control over Cloud, that is the extent of his control, is inconsistent. I get that Cloud's mental defenses or whatever are stronger after he recovers his true persona, but if Sephiroth can excert such control over Cloud that he can well, control him like a puppet, I don't think his influence would be instantly nullified. Why I have a theory that Sephy caused those hallucinations in AC/C,

But yeah, it's true Sephy was probably tweaking him through the Jenova cells too. Question then is why he wasted time and energy breaking Cloud's false persona when he could have just taken control of him outright again - and if he couldn't, why not?

I thought it was the Jenova cells?

I feel like Sephiroth took personal offense that his SUPER SOLIDER GENERAL ass got handed to him by a country bumpkin, hence all the mind games and humiliation.

Ah yes, Sephy's old "pride" excuse (no jab meant at you lemon). I forgot that as well, if he'd stop delighting in torturing and manipulating Cloud and just sliced his head off when he had a clear shot he'd have won two or three times over.

Makes sense though, yeah.

Cloud's true voice and Cloud's waking shell aren't the same. At the time, the shell was in control with the true self patching things below the surface, aware, but not directing the action. But even with the shell in place, Cloud still had will. A will and a resolve that prevented Sephiroth from easily controlling Cloud. That, plus his desire to truly break Cloud without actually understanding the man led to his roundabout actions to break the shell and the will below it.
So, Cloud of Disc 1 IS a shell. Just not an empty one.

Also, Zee, Cloud hadn't given his word to protect Jessie. Cloud's word and failing to keep it is one of the things that we keep coming back to as the thing that most eats him up inside.

Really Drake?

So whenever something dramatic like Aerith's death happens, the reactions count for Real Cloud, the walking, talking, person you play the rest of the time only counts for when he says something dickish? That's very unfair.

And yes lemon grab, that's WHAT I WAS SAYING! The voice in his head is the real Cloud. Cloud asks and answers questions to the guy you are playing. They have conversations. It takes two people to hold a conversation. so... Lemme me just check my math here... Carry the 7... Disc 1 Cloud and Real Cloud are two people.

Disc 1 Cloud has his own memories formed from what his Jenova cells took from Tifa's and Zack's mind. He remembers being the loner cool kid that liked to get into fights as Tifa saw him, he remembers Sephiroth as a warbuddy, being betrayed by him, being very upset by that, being a merc, having inexplanable urge to follow Sephiroth wherever he goes which he conciously writes off as a need to settle the score with him.

And like I said, Said part of Cloud will always be there, like Cloud tells Rufus he's a SOLDIER First Class... in his head.

The scene in his subconcious where all Cloud came together was pretty literal, Disc 1 Cloud is one part of the guy that came out of the lifestream. Along the with other parts who are, you know, in love with Tifa.