The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

Disclaimer:
1) Why am I doing this? I can't stop
2) It's hard to type with a cat in your lap

Re Omoi:

Already discussed this in another reply, so I'll just leave it at that and see what you say to that. But good, you realize it IS deep, so it can't be used to describe an apathetic conversation.

Then it’s possible for two people to live together and start a family without being in love with each other. Tifa was taking care of Marlene for Barret when she lived in the 7th Heaven in Midgar. Did that mean Tifa and Barret were in love? Were Shera and Cid in love at the time they were living together and Avalanche first got to Rocket Town?

I think I've said this before but I'll say it again[spoiler="]

[/spoiler]You're comparing apples to oranges." So far, to say Cloud and Tifa can't be romantically involved, you've compared them to

A. A brother and a sister

Spoiler:

B. A group of wanted criminals using a bar as a hideout.
C. You giving Shroudy a place to stay because he said he needed a place to crash for a while (hypothetical of course).

Do you see the problem here? None of these situations are even close to what Cloud and Tifa have. Cloud didn't say to Tifa, "Hey I need a place to crash, do you mind?" and they aren't blood related. (or are they ) The closest you got there is Barret and Tifa.

Okay how's this? Since Barret and Tifa's situation are the same as Cloud and Tifa's according to you, where are the quotes that say "Barret and Tifa realized their feelings for each other [of friendship mind you] and live together."?

But I'm not going to leave it at that, nosiree, I'm not going to answer your question with a question and just leave. That wouldn't be right... so to phrase it like a statement...

They don't have quotes talking about each other's feelings, they are never called a family, they didn't have a conversation deciding to live together and that they have each other and all those other things. Barret never asked Tifa if she loved him... and so on...

that's the difference, look at the CONTEXT!

I’m afraid those are only your opinions based on how you see the story.

I'm trying to debate with you here, not listen to what you think is an opinion and what isn't. Could you please at least respond with YOUR opinion?

1) Blushing around someone doesn’t mean that you’re in love with them. 2) You don’t have 7 quotes of romantic feelings between Cloud and Tifa. I know you think you do, but you don’t - I’ve discussed that in more detail in prior posts. 3) Saying two people belong together doesn’t automatically mean they’re in love. Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge remain together in the lifestream, so I’d say they belong together, too – but they’re just friends. 4) Nojima wasn’t speaking about Cloud and Tifa when he mentioned love and marriage. He was referring to his own ideas about love and marriage – we’ve discussed that before. 5) Cloud didn’t say he wants Tifa in a different way than before. He only said that what he means is kind of different.

1. But looking at the context, and not picking apart everything one at a time and examining it in a vacuum and under a microscope, the reason he's blushing is clear.
2. I have 4 romantic quotes and 3 that says there's deep feeling. Not something you'd use for an apathetic conversation.
3. Please stop avoiding this and answer the question, please?... I'm asking really nice here. Why did Nojima know for sure they'd be together? Why was that so important to him? At the very least could you please acknowledge the question with an "I don't know."? If you don't have an answer fine, but I just wanted an answer to it. (That's why I asked )

4. Another question you've avoided.

Let's break it down DJ-PON3

A. Does Nojima just random aimlessly about love marriage and family at the drop of a hat?
B. Since it's not romantic, was he saying "Maybe things would have been better with Aerith as a room mate?" Because if he's not talking about love marriage and family in relation to Cloud and Tifa, he's not doing it for Aerith either.

Or did you talk to Nojima yourself about this?... if you did, please tell him to get the number of his drug dealer because I want some of the acid that just makes you ramble incoherently about love marriage and family.

5. Already responded to this, moving on.

And how do you know she was talking about Avalanche instead of Cloud, Denzel, and Marlene? The other members of Avalanche weren’t there at the time – only Cloud and Marlene were there.

This is the third question you've completely avoided. Can you please stop avoiding the questions?

What are Marlene and Denzel's sins if they are the family of friends she speaks of?

Re: Barret in the family cause of the new novel

Already talked about this, the quotes were NOT wrong. Moving on.

Denzel is thinking in CoD about who he wants to thank, not about who’s in his family. Denzel doesn’t have reason to thank Barret, so there’s no reason for Denzel to think of him at that time.

Boy you'd think that saving his life from Bahamut would count for something
Denzel's a dick

Does this mean you only want to talk about opinions when they’re your opinions?

No I wanna discuss facts we back up with evidence and quotes.

Good. So please stop using the “family” as evidence that Cloud and Tifa are romantically involved.

Except, I never did
I used context and what not

Those 7 out of 8 quotes only prove your point in your opinion – I’ve given you evidence that they don’t prove your point. And remember – in your opinion, seven quotes also showed that Barret’s not part of the family when he really is.

Believe it or not Anastar, the scene did NOT go like this:

Trouble is, the FTOIL page only says under the HW scene that their feelings match. The only place it says “love” is at the top of the page – it’s never said in reference to the HW scene itself.

Actually, you're right. This is my bad... it doesn't say that for the Highwind scene... but it also doesn't say that for the date scene... so I guess we can't use it for that... So I guess neither is being said to be romantic... on the page that's said to be about romantic love.... in fact it doesn't say that for ANY of the scenes on the page. So ... the page really isn't about romantic love like the header says.

No seriously, the header tells us what the page is about. Cloud and Tifa are not the exception on the page. And before you say it, "Then why are Cloud and Aerith" please read on:

My mistake – I literally could not see the pic of Cloud and Tifa under the HW on this scan until I lightened the image:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...ummarypage.png

Before I lightened the image, I thought the only HW scene pic was of Barret on the deck of the HW.

Then what were you talking about here?
http://www.thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=368045&postcount=1139

Because the HW scene and Date scene have different options. The HW scene can have C and T confirm love OR confirm a platonic relationship by option. The option is that two different things can happen in that scene. The option in the date scene is who Cloud goes on the date with, not what feelings he confirms with Aerith. Whenever Cloud goes on the Date with Aerith, the script remains the same. You get two different scripts during the HW scene according to which version you get.

So they couldn’t show Cloud with different girls under the HW. The Deviation is what the two of them said to one other. So SE had to portray the options differently on the FTOIL page for each scene.

Now see, this is actually a well thought out answer that doesn't just say "Thats your opinion" and answer questions with a question. This is probably one of the best responses you've given in this debate because it's actually not something I've really thought about before. I wish you'd come up with more responses like this. First of all

Because the HW scene and Date scene have different options. The HW scene can have C and T confirm love OR confirm a platonic relationship by option.

You JUST said:

Trouble is, the FTOIL page only says under the HW scene that their feelings match. The only place it says “love” is at the top of the page – it’s never said in reference to the HW scene itself.

Again, you need to pick a stance on this and not go back and forth like that.

The option in the date scene is who Cloud goes on the date with, not what feelings he confirms with Aerith. Whenever Cloud goes on the Date with Aerith, the script remains the same. You get two different scripts during the HW scene according to which version you get.

This is the problem. You're seeing the date as ONLY speaking of the Clerith date, yet here you yourself said Cloud and go on a date with different people. The text on the page is talking about all four dates not about what he feels for Aerith. Read it "At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior." It doesn't say, "Cloud and Aerith have feelings, but anyone can show up on the date" or anything. You're looking ONLY at the picture to determine the context instead of looking at the text as well. Please look at both the text and the picture to determine context.

Okay, but you’re ignoring the fact that the Clerith date scene is on the page. Why show the Date scene at all if SE is declaring Cloti canon? The date scene is meaningless if SE is declaring Cloti canon on that page – there is absolutely no reason to show the date scene at all.

Besides, I say your graph is wrong. I think optionality is mentioned for both scenes on the FTOIL page. IMO, that’s said loud and clear by “page 232” at the top of the HW scene picture.

It doesn’t mention Aerith or what happens on the Clerith date because the option is for Cloud to go on the date with 4 different people where 4 different things happen. Not all the Date scenes have Aerith in them.Heroes” applies to the Clerith date scene picture.

The thing is I'm not ignoring the date. I've responded to this many many times, and others have too. It's because FFVII is the only game where you have the ability to date the hero with one of four people. That's why it's there.

I should also mention that you’re actually contradicting yourself here. According to you, a pic of the HA version of the HW scene next to a quote about “confirming feelings” in the story summary confirms that the summary is talking about the HA version. If pictures represent what the story summary is talking about, then the Clerith date scene picture on the FTOIL page means that the page title about “Love Between Heroes” applies to the Clerith date scene picture.

Nope, no contradictions here. I look at both the image AND the text, not just one or the other. You only look at the picture, I look at both.

Story summary: C and T realize feelings
Picture: HA highwind scene
Conclusion: It's talking about the HA scene.

FTOIL pageStory summary: Cloud goes on a date with 1 of 4 people
Picture: Cloud and Aerith on a date
Conclusion: All 4 dates are romantic, the image is being used to represent the 4 dates the text talks about

See how that works? It's totally consistent. I'm afraid it's your way that isn't consistent:

Story summary: C and T realize feelings
Picture: HA highwind scene
Conclusion: This is saying which version happened, not which version is canon. So neither is canon.

FTOIL pageStory summary: Cloud goes on a date with 1 of 4 people
Picture: Cloud and Aerith on a date
Conclusion: Only the Clerith date is romantic!

See how that doesn't quite work?

That’s totally unfair. I’ve asked the same questions several times, but I never received an answer. Why should I answer your questions when my questions don’t get answered?

Whoa

Spoiler: .

Okay I'm sorry but no. When did I EVER not answer a question? There's a difference between not answering a question to one's satisfaction and avoiding a question all together.

and you still didn't answer it... okay so you don't have a counter for that. Noted.

The reason that I answer with a question is that I see my questions as being every bit as valid as yours. I’ve been given no reason from anyone I’ve debated with about why the Clerith date scene would be on the FTOIL page if it has nothing to do with the topic of “Love Between Heroes”, or why the Clerith date scene would be on the FTOIL page if SE is declaring Cloti canon on that page. Truth is, I can think of absolutely no reason for the Clerith date scene to be on the FTOIL page other than for SE to mean that Cloud can love Aerith as well as Tifa.

Guess I'll answer again.

1. It's not the Clerith date, it's the date.
2. I didn't say it had nothing to do with love between heroes, I said "Oh look the text says all 4 dates happen and it has a picture of the one to represent the dates"
3. And for at least the 14th time, it's not that page that makes Cloti canon, it's the compilation as a whole.

I’ve been saying the same thing all along – that Cloud’s love for both Aerith and Tifa are optional.

However, I would only agree with what you said about Cloud doesn’t HAVE to love Aerith in either version. I never said he did – I’ve only been saying that it’s possible, especially when Cloud’s in a love triangle with both women. The typical outcome of any romantic love triangle is that the main love interest falls in love with one or the other..

Except my point was Cloud doesn't love Aerith in either highwind version.

I believe I did.

No, you didn't. You said it wasn't fair that I asked you a question and asked for a answer.

Rather different, if you ask me. In KH1, a number of couples in love were reunited after a separation – like Beast and Beauty, Aladdin and Jasmine, etc. – so the same idea would obviously apply to Cloud and Aerith.
There is no such prevailing theme in AC/ACC like there is in KH1. And frankly, the only “truth” about Cloud and Tifa’s relationship that I saw presented in FFVII AC was misunderstanding and miscommunication.

Rats, I was hoping we could post more fanart

By that logic then, showing Gepetto and Pinnochio is romantic. And don't get me started on 3 ducks and 3 brooms.

And again, “apathetic” refers to “indifference”. Therefore, both Cloud and Tifa are indifferent about getting involved romantically.

Only it doesn't, it reefers to the conversation, like the passage says. The conversation is apathetic. Nothing about C and T being apathetic about being romantically involved, at all. Just that the conversation is lacking

Same for the HA HW scene. If it went beyond what we saw in the HA HW scene, why wouldn’t it go beyond what we saw in the LA HW scene?

Maybe cause we're told it does so in one and not the other?
Okay so noted that you don't have any evidence of this then.

Again, love was never discussed during the conversation shown during the HA HW scene. The only way we know that it happens is that SE said on the FTOIL page that one option is for Cloud to say he loves Tifa. SE described the other conversation (the LA HW scene) as “short and apathetic”, which is what I showed in the sample conversation.

Yes it says, "Words aren't the only way to convey your feelings."... was about love. We've been told this.
and yeah, HERE you admit the conversation was apathetic and short, but before it was Cloud and Tifa who were...

I never said that was definite. It’s only logical, since a Love Triangle usually results in the main love interest falling in love with one or the other.

Oh

Now, hold on. You say that Cloud and Tifa confirm love in the HA HW scene, but it’s never shown in game. The only way we know that is that the FTOIL page says that it’s optional for Cloud to love Tifa in the HW scene. We are never shown that part of the conversation, so you can only infer that it exists beyond what is shown in game.

Idk maybe cause we were told this?

Also: "Words aren't the only way to convey your feelings."

Then why do you think one conversation proves that Cloud loves Tifa when we never see him say that in the game?

Did you really just bloody go there? How many times do I have to say it's the Compilation as the whole that proves it? HOW MANY TIMES?

If he confirms love with Tifa beyond the conversation that we see during the HA HW scene in game, then he confirms indifference to romance with Tifa beyond the conversation that we see during the LA HW scene in game.

In a scene you made up. And you have no proof of this beyond what you made up. That's the problem. If you do, you never posted it. And being in a love triangle doesn't prove squat because that just means both the girls love him, nothing is said about him having to chose one or the other.

 

[Danseru-kun]

And frankly, the only “truth” about Cloud and Tifa’s relationship that I saw presented in FFVII AC was misunderstanding and miscommunication.

I still don't see the reasoning behind this. There isn't anything in the AC script that proved misunderstanding and miscommunication. What we can see is Cloud just being emotionally and mentally weak plus being guilt ridden in the script.

In the Forgotten Capital:

Aerith: So, why did you come?
Cloud: I think ... I want to be forgiven, more than anything.

Cloud wants to be forgiven by Aerith more than anything. Didn't say anything about meeting her. Even if he did, it will not indicate any misunderstanding between Cloud and Tifa. Next is in the bedroom:

Tifa: You have Geostigma, don't you? You're going to give up and die, is that it? [Cloud doesn't respond.]
Tifa: So it is.
Cloud: There's no cure.
Tifa: Yeah, but, that's not stopping Denzel, is it? Don't run! Let's fight it together! We can help each other, I know we can. [Cloud doesn't respond.] I guess ... that only works for real families.
Cloud: Tifa ... I'm not fit to help anyone -- not my family, not my friends. Nobody.
Tifa: Dilly dally, shilly shally. [Cloud suddenly looks up.] Dilly dally, shilly shally!

Where is the misunderstanding here? If anything this is Cloud doubting himself and being depressed over helplessness in his situation that reminded him of "letting Aerith die." Was Tifa wrong when giving advice? It's always "we" for Tifa, she wants to be his side and support him and she never blames Cloud and said "Cloud stop being wussy and act like a real man!" Next in the Bahamut scene:

Cloud: I feel lighter. Tifa: Hm?
Cloud: Maybe I lost some weight -- all that dilly dallying. [Tifa smiles.]

Seems that the dilly-dallying worked. Oh! You can say that "it was Aerith's dilly-dally that worked!" but why would he say this to Tifa if she wasn't the one who helped him with the weight loss? He could have just chatted with Aerith's spirit again and said "I've lost some weight with your dilly-dally Aerith." Oh wait! They could have done this in the flower field at the end of the movie! But sadly we didn't see it in the movie. Next, Tifa in the airship:

Tifa: Two years ago ... think of the strength we all had when we fought that last battle. [Scene switches to Cloud and Kadaj battling, but Tifa still continuing.] It's only been a couple of years, but already that feeling is gone. For Cloud, I think he's found it again.

Was Tifa wrong here? Was she misunderstanding Cloud again? In Cloud's battle with Sephiroth:

Cloud: There's not a thing I don't cherish!

Cloud cherishes everything, that's the truth. Prove to me that what I wrote here is wrong. Did I use the Ultimanias? Nope. When we argue for Cloti, we just don't rely on the Ultimanias, we only use them to prove that we're right.

 

[Dashell]

BTW Anastar, your response here:

However, I would only agree with what you said about Cloud doesn’t HAVE to love Aerith in either version. I never said he did – I’ve only been saying that it’s possible, especially when Cloud’s in a love triangle with both women. The typical outcome of any romantic love triangle is that the main love interest falls in love with one or the other.

I never said that was definite. It’s only logical, since a Love Triangle usually results in the main love interest falling in love with one or the other.

Doesn't cut the mustard.... cause you can't really cut mustard and I never understood that phrase

But here's why:

If you’re mean to both Aerith and Tifa, then Cloud loves neither girl romantically. That’s why I say it’s left open to interpretation who Cloud loves.

So by your own logic, Cloud does NOT have to love either one. So again, you have to prove

1. that the conversation went beyond what we saw which you have not done. We are specifically told the HW scene is extended, we are not told this about the LW scene.

2. that the theorized extended dialogue was a confirmation of friendship which you also have not done because you insist on applying "apathetic" to Cloud and Tifa's feeling when we're specifically told it was their conversation that was lacking.

3. that the reason Cloud would only want to be friends is because he is in love with Aeris, to the exclusion of being in love with Tifa which, again, you can't do because by your own logic he doesn't have to love either one. You pulled out this "It's typical for him to love one or the other" when it was convenient for you but it doesn't work that way.

So you haven't proven your hypothetical LW conversion of "Let's be friends" "okay lol" exists. So again do you have any evidence of this at all?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Thought you guys might get a kick out of this, I'm in an edit war on TV Tropes to get this entry to stay under Cloud's character profile while another guy keeps removing it. I'm not disputing that they are a couple, just noting the exact nature of their relationship isn't clear, but....well here, you tell me if you think this is a fair statement.

Will They Or Wont They: He and Tifa are the Official Couple, but Word Of God tiptoes around confirming the exact status of their relationship — there's little to no physical affection between them, and the word "love" has never been attributed to either of them, instead the developers use terms such as "mutual feelings". The Maybe Ever After nature of their relationship is even lampshaded in the Case of Tifa novella.

 

[Vendel]

Those sly dogs at SE. Never being clear about anything. Always leaving us guessing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think the "Maybe Ever After" part is more than fair (Nojima even described it in those terms in that interview where he was asked about Case of Tifa), but I'd disagree with the inclusion of the statement that there is "little to no physical affection between them" given how the "Words aren't the only way" scene is such an iconic moment for them (e.g. a screenshot of it was included with the "Cloud & Tifa" keyword in the CC Complete Guide).

I think Wikipedia's style standard for things like this when it comes to fictional works is that we could say "little to no physical affection is demonstrated between them" within the published works themselves, but we couldn't expand that to the unseen moments.

Also, the word "love" was used in regard to them on the "For the One I Love" page in the U20 Scenario:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...0th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/

The Japanese word used throughout the article there is "renai," which specifically denotes romantic love.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Ah, thank you for pointing that out, forgot that part.

 

[Dashell]

I'm in an edit war on TV Tropes to get this entry to stay under Cloud's character profile while another guy keeps removing it.

WHO would do such a thing?


I'm going to be blunt here and say I don't think it's good at all. If there's anything Square has NOT been "tip toeing" around, it's Cloud and Tifa's relationship. They're canon, they're an official couple, end of. I think this is more accurate:

They Have: He and Tifa are the Official Couple, as Word Of God has attributed the word "love" (specifically renai) to them, as well as phrases such as "feelings of desire" and the two are living together raising children, one of whom has said to be their child. Nojima has also spoken about them in the context of love, marriage and family.

I mean really, why's so tip toey about that?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Unlucky Pug's intro posts have been moved to their own thread in the introduction forum.

Feel free to continue posting in the LTD, just make sure your intro and other off topic chatter is kept elsewhere.

 

[Dashell]

Will They Or Wont They: He and Tifa are the Official Couple, but Word Of God tiptoes around confirming the exact status of their relationship — they have trouble expressing themselves through physical affection, and it isn't confirmed if they're in a romantic relationship or not after the events of the game. The Maybe Ever After nature of their relationship is even lampshaded in the Case of Tifa novella.

So now you have THIS? That's even worse than before. Maybe I don't get TV Tropes but what on earth is so ambiguous about "Cloud and Tifa share feelings of love and live together" raising children? Why did you even bother asking us if you weren't going to use what we said? TO make Vendel look bad? Well, sorry dude, you won't hear this often but Vendel is right in this case. Stop trying to force your opinion on TV Tropes, it's just kind of childish really and I think you're better than that tbh.

 

[Vendel]

So now you have THIS? That's even worse than before. Maybe I don't get TV Tropes but what on earth is so ambiguous about "Cloud and Tifa share feelings of love and live together" raising children?

This is just another of the "doesn't say what feelings" arguments that we have seen a thousand times.

And just because you state that you believe C/T are together doesn't change the fact that you have made it about your belief rather than canon.

 

[JayM]

I know this is a bit after the fact, but I just had to question this.

It will be interesting to talk to him again, though I would stress to everyone that citing the various reasons his analysis doesn't fit the canon (e.g. official statements that Tifa is the only one Cloud has opened his heart to between FFVII and AC) won't get you anywhere. This is very likely going to be a discussion purely of the primary source material.

Should be interesting, as -- without secondary sources and the various metatext that makes CxT an open-and-shut case -- there may be a fair enough case for ambiguity or neutrality to be made. I still doubt it, but it might be doable.

...So, to clarify, we CAN argue using only the primary text here? Because when I brought it up a few pages ago I felt like the idea got shot down--not in a mean way, just in a "we welcome the essay but this is not the thread for it" way.

I mean, I'm cool either way, just want to make sure that I wasn't misunderstood, and that I didn't misunderstand. I am one of those people who very strongly favors "Death of the Author" (except in cases where the interpretation is making a statement ABOUT the meta or the author intent) so, as I brought up previously, I would be interested in attempting to construct an alternate reading of the narrative solely for the challenge of it if that's something that's appropriate to the thread.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I know this is a bit after the fact, but I just had to question this.


...So, to clarify, we CAN argue using only the primary text here? Because when I brought it up a few pages ago I felt like the idea got shot down--not in a mean way, just in a "we welcome the essay but this is not the thread for it" way.

I mean, I'm cool either way, just want to make sure that I wasn't misunderstood, and that I didn't misunderstand. I am one of those people who very strongly favors "Death of the Author" (except in cases where the interpretation is making a statement ABOUT the meta or the author intent) so, as I brought up previously, I would be interested in attempting to construct an alternate reading of the narrative solely for the challenge of it if that's something that's appropriate to the thread.

We're willing to do it, but the general overall idea about sola scriptura analysis is that it is less favorable to a more complete reading, including ancillary elements to fill in the bits we do not see.
I wouldn't say this isn't the thread for it, just that you'll definitely get mixed reactions.
I, for one, find pure death of the author asinine.
That doesn't mean you have to accept author statements as immutably true. There is a middle ground of considering what the author intended, and EVALUATING that rather than ACCEPTING it as so.

Of course, there's "This didn't come up in the story, but it's there' sort of revelations like 'Dumbledore is gay" to consider as well.

So, no, it's not inappropriate to the thread. That said, however, it is a bit of a focused topic, and you might want to consider creating your own thread for the Sola Scriptura version.

 

[Lex]

What the hell is Sola Scriptura?

I'd love to properly weigh in on this thread, I've been eyeing it up since I joined... but I'm going to wait until I've completed my recent re-run of FFVII. Currently at Whirlwind Maze.

 

[Octo]

What the hell is Sola Scriptura?

Its a Harry Potter spell or something......

Seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

So in this instance it would be replacing the bible with the original game alone, not taking into account any other sources, ultimanias, creator comments etc.

 

[Lex]

I think I'm derping from all the rage I've had today, but in this context that would mean purely using the dialogue in-game for arguments?

Or are we referring to exclusively using the OG and not factoring in compilation titles?

I deal with enough latin in my Neuro lectures. :s

 

[Octo]

Well it depends, I think most people consider AC and the OG as being central primary sources where the LTD is concerned, but yeah in general we would be talking about any of the compilation titles, excluding any external stuff.

Of course, theres a bit of a question mark over the novellas there, because of the canonicity (or not) of Maiden. Plus there is the fact that some of the novellas were not available in English.

On top of all that, there are places where the Compilation titles contradict each other. So its a massive headache to pick out the pertinent info (LTD aside) Phew.

Oh and just to clarify: I don't really agree with a Sola Scriptura reading, SE are such bad storytellers that we kind of need all that extra material to tell us what the fuck is going on

 

[Strangelove]

i don't think this thing (at least here) has ever been about which school of literary criticism you subscribe to. i don't think any one has really tried.

otherwise we wouldn't have lists of quotes that say the same thing over and over again

and without supplementary sources, how else are you going to bring up old tv commercials or throw overly literal translations of the dirge of cerberus manual in people's faces?

 

[Zealkin]

Duh Cait Sith makes everything canon, but Cid or Barrett totally don't matter.

 

[Dashell]

Duh Cait Sith makes everything canon, but Cid or Barrett totally don't matter.

Yep Aerith and Cloud totally had a happy future... remember when she died and... oh wait uh... remember when Cloud moved in with Tifa and... uh... uhm... Okay remember when Cloud got Geostigma and finally got to see Aerith again to ask her for forgiveness?...

yeah that's it



But seriously, why do we always focus so much on what Cait Sith said? Never mind that it didn't come true, Cloud had zero reaction from it. Isn't that the important part?

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

Huh, took me awhile to figure out my password here. Been awhile....Anyways.

Zealkin

I saw your list of fallacies in your post. Some of it are really off by the way so I'll be sending you a pm about that. Also, try to find actual quotes that Aly made, because most of em(if not all of em) are really out of context.

You can still talk to Aly if you want, but she'll probably say the same thing when I first saw that post.

 

[Octo]

Why does everything have to be through PM? I know Anastar has issues with her internet connection and stuff, but I'm sure Zealkin wouldn't mind you replying to her post in this thread Giddy.

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

I'm pretty sure she doesn't mind, but I do, I can't accomodate all of you at once. I don't have that luxury anymore. Well, maybe I can still do two or three, feel free to join Zealkin if you're so interested about it.

 

[Octo]

Well the LTD is more of a spectator sport to me

I understand how difficult it is to respond to multiple people at once, and personally I'm fine if its only 2 people debating with each other (which is how public debates often work) It just seems kind of pointless if we're only going to see one side of a conversation.

I guess Zealkin will quote your response in her reply anyway, but for the sake of transparency on both sides its better that people get to read a full post before it gets whittled down in the rebuttal.

I'm not trying to stir trouble or anything, you're not obliged to do anything you're uncomfortable with. I'd just rather see an actual debate happening in this thread

 

[GiddyUnicorn]

I'll send you the whole thing if you really want to....

I'd just rather see an actual debate happening in this thread

Really difficult to start one in this thread imo.