The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Octo]

^We were. We're just real tired y'know?

 

[Shademp]

I don't understand why I was the only one outraged by the "Cloud never shows concern for Tifa" thing...

I mean I usually don't get upset at all in this thread... and then I freak out and no one else does... what's with you people?

Because this thread is, just like the world, quite mad. The LTD is a true tribute to madness.

Only fitting since Donnie Darko was brought up.

 

[Dashell]

Well I'm sick of it.. it's time to live as one:

(sorry videos were being posted)

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I don't understand why I was the only one outraged by the "Cloud never shows concern for Tifa" thing...

I mean I usually don't get upset at all in this thread... and then I freak out and no one else does... what's with you people?

Oh I was, I was. I'm just making a real effort to buckle down and refuse to debate anything with BB.

 

[OniRaitei]

I don't understand why I was the only one outraged by the "Cloud never shows concern for Tifa" thing...

I mean I usually don't get upset at all in this thread... and then I freak out and no one else does... what's with you people?

Oh, I was with you on this. It started with BlankBeat's claims that Cloud only helped Tifa because he wanted money from AVALANCHE. Insanity!

 

[Splintered]

I don't understand why I was the only one outraged by the "Cloud never shows concern for Tifa" thing...

I mean I usually don't get upset at all in this thread... and then I freak out and no one else does... what's with you people?

It's such a confounding, terrible view of Cloud's character and all the themes that appear (at least in Advent Children), I actually pressed the backspace button harder than I could ever press the reply.

I mean, does a hilariously missing the point argument deserve my five minutes? I guess it does.

Saying Cloud is aloof and is too cool to care about anything is a joke. It's a joke because the game goes to lengths to show how that persona of Cloud is fake. That Cloud always was hypersensitive to those around to him so much it built a wall around him, and not the kind we saw in the beginning of the game- the fake "i don't care about anything" wall that was a mixture of his admiration of Zack and the influence of Jenova.

We know that Cloud cares about Tifa. We know that a part of his confidence hinged on Tifa's confidence in their memories together, he says so at the Northern Crater (and the problem here was that after so long, Tifa's confidence was wavering too). We know that he was going to leave Avalanche until Tifa appealed to their connection and relationship, in which he pretended to do it for money, because the aloofness was part of his persona. We know that Aerith helped crack that shell, yes. But we also know it was Tifa that healed his mind.

I have a question; do you really think that if Aerith wasn't there- Cloud would not have gone to save Tifa from Don Corneo's? Or if Tifa was trapped in the Shinra building, he wouldn't have gone to save her?

Because if you say no, I will literally have no respect for your analysis of Cloud. I'm not even going to pretend to. I don't think Cloud loving Aerith makes him a douche or evil. But Cloud not caring about anything but Aerith is. Cloud's entire life hinging on just what Aerith does in the beginning part of the game... is just no. Even as a mentally damaged, insular, socially inept character like him had relationships, Aerith and Tifa are both close to him. He would have gone to lengths to save both

Admitting that doesn't diminish Cloud and Aerith's relationship. But saying that he would only go to those lengths for Aerith diminishes Cloud's character.

This is an embarrassment of a debate. Cloud didn't care about Tifa, good god who thinks of this shit. And it's sad because I think a lot of the reactions towards some of BB's arguments are over dramatic and he brings up some good points. Then someone drags this out.

EDIT:

An hour later, I think this post was kind of mean... but I stand by the spirit of it. Cloud's "hey I want monies" was just a deflection of why he was staying in Avalanche, because he cared for Tifa. Because she appealed to their relationship- one that was remembered with faulty fondness but one that still meant the world to him. And him going and risking his neck for Aerith was also special considering he just met her, and that he wanted specifically to keep her safe because they shared a connection.

Those two genuine connections aren't mutually exclusive and ones that pierced through his false persona of uncaring and led him further into the plot.

 

[OniRaitei]

An hour later, I think this post was kind of mean... but I stand by the spirit of it. Cloud's "hey I want monies" was just a deflection of why he was staying in Avalanche, because he cared for Tifa. Because she appealed to their relationship- one that was remembered with faulty fondness but one that still meant the world to him. And him going and risking his neck for Aerith was also special considering he just met her, and that he wanted specifically to keep her safe because they shared a connection.

I agree.

Something completely different might have happened in the bar after Cloud is reminded of/remembers the childhood promise with Tifa. However, Barret climbed into the room and Cloud had to maintain his uncaring front by demanding more money. Demanding money and claiming he didn't care was Cloud's way of keeping up this mercenary persona to the rest of AVALANCHE, but I think Tifa knew better.

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Saying Cloud is aloof and is too cool to care about anything is a joke. It's a joke because the game goes to lengths to show how that persona of Cloud is fake. That Cloud always was hypersensitive to those around to him so much it built a wall around him, and not the kind we saw in the beginning of the game- the fake "i don't care about anything" wall that was a mixture of his admiration of Zack and the influence of Jenova.

Totally. Can't argue with that at all. It's a mastermind of story and game development in one smart sexy mesh. Gives the game room to have fun with Cloud while actually being relevant to who Cloud is at the time.

We know that Aerith helped crack that shell, yes. But we also know it was Tifa that healed his mind.

Again, beautifully put, I would have just thanked you, but I like it too much.

I don't think Cloud loving Aerith makes him a douche or evil. But Cloud not caring about anything but Aerith is. Cloud's entire life hinging on just what Aerith does in the beginning part of the game... is just no. Even as a mentally damaged, insular, socially inept character like him had relationships, Aerith and Tifa are both close to him. He would have gone to lengths to save both

Admitting that doesn't diminish Cloud and Aerith's relationship. But saying that he would only go to those lengths for Aerith diminishes Cloud's character.

That's the horrid sandwich those who look to justify shipping have. To make them what you want you have to bend them into what you don't want. I think its great there's enough open ended light hearted sub FF7 crossover games you can enjoy your ship without having to do that, but you can't do it here, especially since the Compilation takes any doubt out of the dynamics.

This is an embarrassment of a debate. Cloud didn't care about Tifa, good god who thinks of this shit. And it's sad because I think a lot of the reactions towards some of BB's arguments are over dramatic and he brings up some good points. Then someone drags this out.

It's the me-factor. One is so focused on what YOU want, you don't look beyond that to the wake of factors you create in bending the story to your desire, which is singularly about two components when the story is made of so much more.

As for BB. Articulate and pretty patient. He believes what he believes and carries enough good manners against adversity to do him credit. Met a few offering smaller minded versions of the very same arguments - I'm sure most in this thread have 20,30, 40 times (though 20 or 30 are the same people with different names), but patience is something I respect. The problem is you're stuck on the Ship-train, if you can't look beyond the two character interactions and the wider story progression, you will lose because there's just so much you unhinge that can be put at your door. In the end you can't look further, so you end up sticking to the same points, and hammer those till people pop. I think all in all, on both sides of this debate, people have behaved pretty damn well, internet considered.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, I do have to give BlankBeat props for patience, now you mention it. Assuming we haven't all been on the receiving end of the longest trolling ever, the dude is one seriously persistent mofo.

 

[Morana]

I don't understand why I was the only one outraged by the "Cloud never shows concern for Tifa" thing...

I mean I usually don't get upset at all in this thread... and then I freak out and no one else does... what's with you people?

Oh, I was but it is not exactly a new argument so I let it go.

 

[ForceStealer]

Splintered, how are all of your posts so amazing?

 

[Farron]

Assuming we haven't all been on the receiving end of the longest trolling ever, the dude is one seriously persistent mofo.

If King Koopa/ Bowser and Dr Robotnik/ Eggman has taught us anything is it that if somebody is extremely serious about their goals is that they never ever give up

Also found this on Tumblr it made my day lol

“Cloti is indeed, Canon”
— Yoshinori Kitase

"Clerith’s love is eternal."
— Tetsuya Nomura

“What the fuck Nomura-san, I got here first”
— Yoshinori Kitase

"WHAT I SAY GOES EVERYONE LIKES ME MORE"
— Tetsuya Nomura

The two directors are presently settling the matter through a slapfight in the break room.

[ Source: Ultimania VII-XL Special Supremo 15yr Argument Edition ]

 

[Goodbye Charlie]

Yeah, I do have to give BlankBeat props for patience, now you mention it. Assuming we haven't all been on the receiving end of the longest trolling ever, the dude is one seriously persistent mofo.

lol there is that argument. Most "believers" tend to loose their patience against the odds, so maybe there's the troll agenda, but even then, bravo for a very good troll agenda. There has to be props for even such planned waste of time!

 

[BlankBeat]

No.. just... just no, my god did you PLAY the game? He expressed concern for her in Nibelheim, and whether you like it or not, he expresses concern for her when she went to see the Don, and as I said before, he went to The Forgotten City for a reason and according to the script, it wasn't Aerith. ... ugh I haven't played the game in so long but I know there's others... and uhm again is this JUST FFVII or can we go into other compilation titles?



god


fuck it




just posts like that really piss me off. How dare you say Cloud NEVER expresses concern for Tifa. He expresses concern for OTHER people as well, just fucking stop trying to make Aerith be the only one he cares about... it's just disgusting at this point

Quex,

How did you (and others) not understand that I was specifically talking about the scene where Tifa is in Don's mansion?

In fact, this is what I said prior to that post: "There are plenty of example that show us Cloud cares for Tifa. But did Cloud rescue Tifa from Don's mansion because Cloud was wavering towards Tifa? Sadly, I think Cloud was still wavering towards Aerith at that point because the script tells us so. Cloud only went inside Don's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone."

So...everyone's rants about how Cloud has shown care for Tifa are irrelevant because I agree with you guys. I was talking about one scene in particular.

Oh and bringing up the Forgotten City argument just looks desperate, IMO.

Oh and your "Nomura doesn't know" quote?... well in another magazine AFTER he said that Nomura says AC firmly grasps Tifa and Cloud's relationship... so he obviously DOES know



Your "doesn't know" quote is now null and void

Not quiet.

Nomura says he doesn't know the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship two years after FFVII ended.

Nomura talks about the "truth" of Cloud and Tifa's relationship as it pertains Advent Children.

Both of his quotes are talking about two different time periods.

This could be a very logical conclusion: the status of their relationship is unknown during the two years after the HAHW scene, but then AC shows us the "truth" of their relationship, which is that they will never be in a long-lasting relationship. Cloud "friend-zoned" Tifa

--------------------

Oh you didn't really show or say that. You just showed a animated gif of Cloud grieving over Aerith's dead body and said " If this doesn't prove that Clerith is canon I don't know what is " Which made it look like you believe that grieving equals true love. I'm glad that's not the case BB because to be honest that sort of concerned me.

This is what proves Cloud's reaction to Aerith's death stems from his love for her:

Nomura, concerning Aerith's death:

"Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both eastern and western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people?"

Nomura talks about *AVOIDING* the cliche' where the, "protagonist loves someone very much and has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love." So how did they avoid the cliche'? Instead of having the protagonist die, they had the person the protagonist was in love with die.

Kitase follows that up with this:

"In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

Kitase wanted to express, through Aerith's death, what it feels like when you lose someone that you, "LOVED VERY MUCH". Then, he releates it directly to Cloud by saying sometimes people think, "If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently". It is obvious that Cloud's love for Aerith and her death was meant to highlight exactly what Kitase wanted to convey.



How did I not know about these quotes before? This should make it undeniable that the intent of Cloud and Aerith's relationship was a tragic *LOVE* story.

I don't why Cleriths really love and adore this whole prediction thing and use it as proofs for their ship because Cait Sith was really unreliable. In the Gold Saucer it took him about five tries to get a decent prediction. Plus he has a prediction about a wedding but also a prediction that Cloud's summer is going to be a awesome one, judging by what occurs through out Final Fantasy VII i don't think that Cloud had a awesome summer

We adore the prediction because SE says it becomes "more painful" after Aerith's death. The only way it can become more painful is if there was a mutual romance that could have led to the prediction coming true.

--------------------

Will get to Stragelove and Goodbye Charlie's posts soon enough

 

[Octo]

In fact, this is what I said prior to that post: "There are plenty of example that show us Cloud cares for Tifa. But did Cloud rescue Tifa from Don's mansion because Cloud was wavering towards Tifa? Sadly, I think Cloud was still wavering towards Aerith at that point because the script tells us so. Cloud only went inside Don's mansion because he didn't want Aerith to go alone."

So...everyone's rants about how Cloud has shown care for Tifa are irrelevant because I agree with you guys. I was talking about one scene in particular.

So to sum up, at that point Cloud decided he didn't give a shit about Tifa and was more concerned about Aerith who he had only met about 3 hours before? Are you serious.

Cloud WAS in the process of thinking of a way to get into Don Corneos mansion WITHOUT endangering Aerith or Tifa further. Aerith just came up with a fast solution that he would never of thought of himself. Do you really believe that Cloud wouldn't have tried to rescue Tifa? That he would have just given up?

If Aerith hadn't come up with the crossdressing idea then Cloud would probably have decided to send her some place safe while he busted in there.

Don't you see how bizarre the story becomes when you constantly view it through a prism of Cloud/Aerith?

EDIT: and the "Loved very much" thing, IIRC (and someone more knowledgable will back me up) Kitase was talking about real death, inspired by the death of his own mother. These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game.

He's talking about the players, not Cloud. He's talking about having a sudden shocking event happen, where the expectation was that Aerith would be rescued and all would be well. That's what he was trying to convey.

 

[BlankBeat]

So to sum up, at that point Cloud decided he didn't give a shit about Tifa and was more concerned about Aerith who he had only met about 3 hours before? Are you serious.

1. Cloud did not have all of his memories associated with Tifa yet.

2. Look at the script.

After Cloud tells Aerith it would be too dangerous by herself, Aerith says, "Do you want to go with me?" Only after Aerith asks Cloud to go with her does he start to ponder another way in. It was Aerith asking Cloud to go with her that prompted him to think of different ways to go in.

Then, after Cloud couldn't think of a way to get in, he says, "But, I just can't let you go in alone..." This tells us that although Cloud didn't think there would be a way to get in, the overriding factor in Cloud's mind was Aerith's safety.

If Cloud had been alone, Aerith's safety wouldn't have been there to worry about and thus, Cloud would have had no reason to put aside his reservations about being a guy and causing too much of a commotion.

Cloud WAS in the process of thinking of a way to get into Don Corneos mansion WITHOUT endangering Aerith or Tifa further. Aerith just came up with a fast solution that he would never of thought of himself. Do you really believe that Cloud wouldn't have tried to rescue Tifa? That he would have just given up?

Look at the script.

And yes, I honestly believe that without Aerith, Cloud would have decided he wouldn't be able to rescue Tifa because he's a guy and because barraging in would have caused too much of a ruckus (he admits to this).

What caused Cloud to go in Don's mansion?
1. Aerith asked Cloud if he wanted to go with her.
2. Cloud didn't want Aerith to to, "alone".
3. Aerith came up with a plan to dress Cloud up like a woman.

If Cloud had not been concerned for Aerith's safety, and if Aerith had not thought of dressing Cloud of like a woman, I honestly believe Cloud would have determined that he wouldn't be able to rescue Tifa (this is based on his own conclusion that he's a man and that barging in would cause too much of a commotion).

If Aerith hadn't come up with the crossdressing idea then Cloud would probably have decided to send her some place safe while he busted in there.

...but Cloud only thought of "busting in" when Aerith asked him to go with her.

Don't you see how bizarre the story becomes when you constantly view it through a prism of Cloud/Aerith?

As I've stated before...
You can *ASSUME* Cloud would have rescued Tifa without Aerith. And although I don't completely disagree with that assumption, THE SCRIPT TELLS US AERITH IS THE REASON CLOUD DID IT. That's the part you are overlooking. The script tells us, point blank, that Aerith is the reason Cloud decided to go in Don's mansion. Your hypotheticals are pointless because the script gives us the answer.

 

[Octo]

This video, skip to 13.40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ZEDxERKGk

Here is the script:

Aerith "Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look." "I'll tell Tifa about you."

Cloud "No!! You can't!!"

Aerith "Why?"

Cloud "You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?"

Aerith "Then, what am I supposed to do? You want to go in with me?"

Cloud "Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there, it'll cause too much commotion." (Aerith is giggling.)

Cloud "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......" "First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright...." "What's so funny, Aerith?"

Aerith "Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way."

Cloud "WHAT!?" (Aerith speaks to the doorman.)

Aerith "Just wait. I've got a cute friend I want to bring."

Cloud "Aerith! I can't....."

Aerith "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

[Sequence of events follows, in which Cloud gets various feminine items.]

Cloud is clearly trying to think of a way. EDIT: You assume that there were only 2 options 1) Bust on in there 2) Allow Aerith to go in alone.

 

[BlankBeat]

Let me make these two points clear:

Cloud *ONLY* thought of a way to get in Don's mansion after Aerith said, "You want to go with me?"

When Cloud couldn't think of a way in, he decided that it didn't matter because he didn't want Aerith to go, "alone".

It was then Aerith's idea to dress him up as a woman.

 

[Octo]

Aerith just up and decided she was going to go in off her own bat. Cloud didn't even get the chance to speak!

So let me ask you this. If Cloud didn't care about Tifa, why did he go along with the crossdressing plan?

Aerith "You ARE worried about Tifa, aren't you? Then come on, hurry!"

By your logic. Cloud should have responded 'Nah, I'm good. Do you fancy going to that Korean BBQ place?'

 

[BlankBeat]

If Cloud didn't care about Tifa, why did he go along with the crossdressing plan?

...because he said he didn't want Aerith to go alone?

Aerith asked Cloud to go with her, which is what prompted him to think of ways in. Cloud did *NOT* think of ways to get in until Aerith asked him to go with her. Then, when Cloud couldn't think of a way in, he said it didn't matter because he didn't want Aerith to go alone.

Without Aerith asking Cloud to go with her, and without Cloud's concern for Aerith's safety, there is no evidence that Cloud would have gone in or figured out an alternative way in.

 

[Sikozu]

If all Cloud cared about was Aerith he would have kept her out of there. No point in risking her safety for Tifa's sake.

Uh, BlankBeat, your trying to prove Cloud is unconcerned for Tifa isn't gonna work. Even if he wasn't the first to suggest a doable way in, there are two quotes from THE SCRIPT(same one you're trying to use to prove he doesn't care) where Cloud expresses concern for Tifa's safety. One Octo just posted, another while he examines nasty panties in prep for the infiltration.

He cares about Tifa. He wants to save her. He cares about Aerith. He wants to go in with her to protect her. He can do both.

 

[Octo]

I think I've reached a dead end here. I'm expected to believe that Cloud who is currently assuming the persona SOLDIER Zack, would not have been able to infiltrate the Don's Mansion, even though he'd previously infiltrated 2 high security Mako reactors?

Aerith just came up with the fastest solution, however unconventional. Aerith never had to go into the place in the first instance! She could have just gone home or somewhere else safe.

 

[BlankBeat]

If all Cloud cared about was Aerith he would have kept her out of there. No point in risking her safety for Tifa's sake.

Elmyra said (in-front of Cloud) that once Aerith has made up her mind, there is no point in trying to convince her otherwise.

Uh, BlankBeat, your trying to prove Cloud is unconcerned for Tifa isn't gonna work. Even if he wasn't the first to suggest a doable way in, there are two quotes from THE SCRIPT(same one your trying to use to prove he doesn't care) where Cloud expresses concern for Tifa's safety. One Octo just posted, another while he examines nasty panties in prep for the infiltration.

After Cloud agreed to go in Don's mansion because Aerith asked him to and because he was worried for her safety, he agrees that the next course of action is to see if Tifa is alright.

And the panties quote is optional. But if you want to use it as evidence, I'd simply say, the plan to save Tifa was already agreed upon by Cloud and Aerith. So of course he's going to say, "...well, if it's to save Tifa..." -- that's the plan he agreed to because of his desire to keep Aerith safe.

 

[BlankBeat]

I think I've reached a dead end here. I'm expected to believe that Cloud who is currently assuming the persona SOLDIER Zack, would not have been able to infiltrate the Don's Mansion, even though he'd previously infiltrated 2 high security Mako reactors?

Cloud did the Mako reactors for money.

Remember, Cloud didn't have all of his memories associated with Tifa while she was captured by Don.

Aerith just came up with the fastest solution, however unconventional. Aerith never had to go into the place in the first instance! She could have just gone home or somewhere else safe.

But Cloud only thought of ways to get in after Aerith asked him to go with her.

 

[Sikozu]

So of course he's going to say, "...well, if it's to save Tifa..." -- that's the plan he agreed to because of his desire to keep Aerith safe.

Then why wouldn't he say "...well, if it's to keep Aerith safe." instead? You expect us to believe that Cloud reluctantly decides to give a poop about Tifa because he has to go in to protect Aerith?