The Pros of Final Fantasy X-2

[Nikkolas]

I'll reply later after Game 7.
Go Pens.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Something tells me you're just gonna say the same thing, but okay

 

[Nikkolas]

It's not where he died, but its where those influenced pyreflies traveled and thus mixed and further amplified his feelings. All those pyreflies reacted to the feelings carried by the other wandering pyreflies and thus he became a ghost.

Exactly but you're missing why the analogy proivded in the Ultimania fails. The Yevon Dome contained the memories of people who traveled through it and then died.
Shuyin never visited the Den of Woe as far as we know. He died under Bevelle. So why did his influence come to haunt the Den and then move beyond beyond that?
All I can think is his corpse and spirit were dumped there or something. There's no other explanation for it.

And that's not what the game is telling you. The game constantly hammers it into the player that Shuyin is a shadow. They call him that numerous times in reference to his existence. So no, you're apparently not following what the game is saying, if you're running contrary to what the script, storyline, and creator commentary says on the matter.

Hea cts like Shuyin, has all the memories of Shuyin and is said to have all the feelings of Shuyin. He is Shuyin.

You're right, I don't. But I'm sure the creators do, since its their story and their universe. And they say Shuyin in FFX-2 is a shadow of his former self, that died 1000 years ago. I'm sure they know the real Shuyin since they wrote him. You don't know the real Shuyin either.

Shuyin 1000 years ago wanted Vegnagun.
Shuyin now wants Vegnagun.
Shuyin 1000 years ago loved Lenne.
Shuyin now loves Lenne.

That's sure not what the game or creators say.

Yuna: Please..don't go on grieving alone.
Shuyin: We can finally fade together.
He gives up his anger and rage and plans to leave with Lenne.

The real Lenne shows up and he does finally leave.

And he even says in your first meeting with him:
Shuyin: I've finally found you.
Yuna: Is that really you?
Shuyin: It is me..Shuyin. I've waited so long, Lenne.
Yuna: But I'm not Lenne.
Shuyin: Lenne. We disappeared together but when I awoke, I was alone. I looked for you for so long. While I wandered, I realized something. Spira really hasn't changed at all. Everyone's still fighting over nothing, still dying like they used to. A thousand years have passed and they can't leave the hatred behind. I'm through waiting... I'll fix it. This world continues to fail us and what's worse I failed to protect you. Vegnagun will make that all go away... And we'll fade again, together.

What Shuyin wants is to be with Lenne. That's shown through his actions and his own words.
He loves her and that love is stronger than his hate.

So yes I am saying the same things. Becayse you won't accept what is clearly shown.

I'll reply again at the end of th 2nd Period.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Let's put this another way, Shuyin is not himself, he is a fraction of himself, with little more to his personality than his rage and his love for Lenne. He is much like Sephiroth in CoL, so focused on a defining aspect of himself that he begins quickly losing other such bits, and this warps him.

As such, he is a pale imitation of what he once was. Similarly, the Lenne inside the Dressphere is not entirely her, but a simplified, more static version, unlike the complete and dynamic unsent, such as Maechen.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The analogy doesn't fail because it's speaking in regards to the Den of Woe, where the pyreflies that carried his negative feelings from his mind, wandered, and mixed with the large amount of pyreflies that were present in the cave.

Paine: Seems that way. When he died a thousand years ago, his feelings became
intertwined with the pyreflies, creating this...apparition.

Yuna: He’s like a dream…or a nightmare.

Do you understand that? The pyreflies of his feelings intertwined with the pyreflies in the Den of Woe and thus the shadow was born.

How those original pyreflies arrived at the Den of Woe is another topic entirely. The fact is, is that they got there, and reacted with the pyreflies there and thus spawned the shadow.

And no, he does not act like Shuyin. You're again neglecting the difference. The original Shuyin wasn't racked with despair or full of negativity and murderous intent. Unless you believe the original Shuyin was filled with "despair strong enough to crush the minds of those it touches", no...that is not the real Shuyin. Shuyin wasn't a murderous, and dangerous being with a desire to kill all life because of despair. He may have felt that despair at his death, but that was not his sum total of emotions and affect.

How many times does the game have to say he's a shadow for you to accept it? Where is your evidence from the souce material that backs up your assertion?

And yeah, that scene shows Shuyin's shadow confused on how when he disappeared and passed on to the Farplane, he remained and was alone. If anything, that reinforces the fact that Shuyin's shadow was left behind when the other part of him vanished and passed on with Lenne. He's a remnant of the original. The fact he's so fixated and filled with rage at Spira and wants to plot its destruction and "fix it" shows there's something wrong with his mind and he's filled with despair beyond anything before.

 

[Nikkolas]

And no, he does not act like Shuyin. You're again neglecting the difference. The original Shuyin wasn't racked with despair or full of negativity and murderous intent. Unless you believe the original Shuyin was filled with "despair strong enough to crush the minds of those it touches", no...that is not the real Shuyin. Shuyin wasn't a murderous, and dangerous being with a desire to kill all life because of despair. He may have felt that despair at his death, but that was not his sum total of emotions and affect.

What was he gonna do with Vegnagun, keep it as a trophy?
For all you know he was gonna reduce Bevelle to a crater to protect Lenne.

And he isn't trying to kill everyone because he's pissed off. He's trying to do it to be with Lenne. He makes that clear.

And yeah, that scene shows Shuyin's shadow confused on how when he disappeared and passed on to the Farplane, he remained and was alone. If anything, that reinforces the fact that Shuyin's shadow was left behind when the other part of him vanished and passed on with Lenne. He's a remnant of the original. The fact he's so fixated and filled with rage at Spira and wants to plot its destruction and "fix it" shows there's something wrong with his mind and he's filled with despair beyond anything before.

Actually he's spot-on about his denouncing of Spira but that's another topic.

And again you miss the point. He loves Lenne more than anything. More than the rage you claim he's consumed by. My proof? The game that shows all he wants is to be with Lenne. He says this twice and confirms it with his actions.

Let's put this another way, Shuyin is not himself, he is a fraction of himself, with little more to his personality than his rage and his love for Lenne. He is much like Sephiroth in CoL, so focused on a defining aspect of himself that he begins quickly losing other such bits, and this warps him.

At least you get what I'm saying.

 

[Channy]

You guys have a Shuyin discussion without me? ;-;

I was quite upset to realize Shuyin was just a shadow of his former self. It meant I couldn't do him later on. >>

But he is just that... a shadow of his hatred and despair because that was the last thing he was feeling when he died. He hated himself for not being able to protect Lenne. He hated Bevelle for taking her away from him. And he despaired over the fact that even in death they weren't reunited.

His body was buried in the Den of Woe, that's why his shadow originally appears there and continues to wreck havoc on the weak minds of soldiers. And his spirit/shadow awoke there expecting Lenne to be with him, but her spirit/shadow was trapped in her Songstress dressphere, something that Yuna tapped into. When Yuna dances at the beginning randomly, she's feeling Lenne's spirit of freedom and joy finally come out. And it's the only real connection to Lenne that Shuyin has, so as soon as he sees that outfit, he sees Lenne.

Regarding Tidus =/= Shuyin, I think Tidus could very well have ended like Shuyin. But Tidus wasn't in the know about Yuna having to sacrifice herself until later on, until he began to really have feelings for her. But Shuyin and Lenne had been in love for God knows how long, so as soon as she's taken from him, of course the only thing he'll feel is hatred. It's just a higher degree than Tidus.

 

[Tennyo]

lol Is this the best they can do? I beat Vegnagun in like three hits. Level 99 wearing Mascot dressphere OH YEAH!

 

[ForceStealer]

I didn't go that far...but I did have that accessory...Cat's something? Or Bell or something? The one that makes you do 9999 if you're in critical. Then you make someone a Gunner, put them in Critical, and use Trigger Happy :-)

 

[Channy]

Cat Nip?

Also Tennyo, some people like to play the game as is and not grind.

I wasn't one of those people, but some do it.

Also, Vegnagun and Shuyin were pisspoor final bosses. For something that had numerous attachments and battles an shit, Vegnagun was a weak ass bitch. I really wish they made both of them more powerful.

 

[The Joker]

The one that makes you do 9999 if you're in critical. Then you make someone a Gunner, put them in Critical, and use Trigger Happy :-)

Overkill much?

But yeah, the final bosses were too easy...though I had a slight problem fighting the bosses in Via Infinito, until I planned a better strategy and beat them afterwards.

 

[ForceStealer]

Overkill much?

I'm not usually one to grind a lot until a second playthrough, since i like the final battle to be a challenge for story purposes. But that big boss you can fight in the desert was giving me a lot of problems, so I just climbed down to the 40th level to get Cat Nip. ...and then couldn't resist using it for Vegnagun

And thank you Channy, I always mix it up with FF7's Cat's Bell.

 

[Tennyo]

I didn't go that far...but I did have that accessory...Cat's something? Or Bell or something? The one that makes you do 9999 if you're in critical. Then you make someone a Gunner, put them in Critical, and use Trigger Happy :-)

This is how I was able to defeat Trema in the Via Infinito.

I mean holy crap why was Trema not the final boss? Or heck, one of the lesser bosses/monsters in the Via Infinito. All tougher than Shuyin and Vegnagun, imho.

Even some of the random monsters.

 

[Channy]

No probs. :3

Yah, even Angra Mainyu was a tougher boss than Shuyin/Vegnagun. And I love Shuyin, I wanted him to be so badass that I really felt my life threatened. Turns out he's nothing more than a pussywillow in battle.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm sorry, but is this your first newschool FF? Final bosses are cake, and optional bosses are hard.
That's how it works.

 

[Channy]

Sephiroth was tough

 

[Tetsujin]

Sephiroth was a pussy.

 

[Channy]

no ur a pussy

 

[Dark and Divine]

Sephiroth was tough

When one is at low levels...

Sephiroth was a pussy.

...when one is at high levels!

 

[Tetsujin]

no ur a pussy

No u.

 

[Channy]

No u.

no u moar

 

[Dark and Divine]

In terms of genitals, one is a pussy, the other is a cock!

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I literally beat Sephiroth with my eyes closed one time.

 

[ForceStealer]

Sephiroth is tough if you fight him at the levels they designed him for, they just seem to have designed him for far too low a level. (seems like 52-54 or so)

But yeah, overall he's not very tough, given all the buildup.

 

[The Joker]

Yah, even Angra Mainyu was a tougher boss than Shuyin/Vegnagun.

It took me some time at first to beat Angra...but I just had Rikku as an Alchemist constantly heal the party, with Yuna and Paine as Dark Knights using Darkness, he fell eventually.

Worst boss for me was that Black Elemental. First time I fought that guy, he used Ultima on me. >.< Honestly never saw that coming. Then of course there was that giant shell enemy on Cloister 60 and Snake on 80. Paragon was a pain, so I just bribed him, to get those Dark Matters. Then of course there was

Spoiler

Trema.

He wasn't so bad...his physical attacks were nothing...but his Ultima and Meteor spells were a nightmare.