The Pros of Final Fantasy X-2

[Cat Rage Room]

G heroes are supposed to improve but Tidus went from not even knowing how to really hold a sword to being one of the greatest Guardians ever. Theory says it's a the Shuyin in him.

Nah, I think it was because Tidus is just that fuckin' baller.

 

[Tennyo]

lol Perhaps that really is why.

I'm not misunderstanding, I just love to talk Shuyin.

Personality wise they are different. Shuyin's sort of... more passionate and reckless. Tidus is reckless to a degree but he always had a group of people around him "Don't do this" "don't do that".

Shuyin was also angry and wanted to kill everyone while Tidus was happy and wanted to save everyone. Yin and Yang much? lol

What do you guys think about the "It's not really Shuyin it's just a shadow comprised of his anger and hatred at not being able to save Lenne?" And by not really Shuyin, MAKE SURE YOU READ AND UNDERSTAND THIS SO THERE AREN'T PARAGRAPHS DEVOTED TO HOW I WAS WRONG EVEN WHEN I DEVOTED ONE SENTENCE TO IT, I mean yes him, but only a part of him. His anger materialized and didn't have the rest of his personality there to keep it in check.

I mean Tidus could get pretty angry himself. If the same happened to him that happened to Shuyin, Tidus could potentially turn out the same way.

thoughts?

And um... do you think this is a pro of X-2? (on topic?)

 

[Makoeyes987]

If you think about Shuyin's remnant spawned from his anger, hatred and despair, you can see how him and Kadaj are somewhat similar in that respect.

That's what I love about FFX-2 as well. It's interesting concepts with spirit energy, and then of course how it also connects to FFVII as well.

 

[Masamune]

I take it the Summoners before Sin used pyreflies to conjure beasts, instead of tapping into Fayth, right? Isn't that essentially what Yu Yevon did - transforming masses of spirit energy into Sin?

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, they used Fayth before Sin as well. Why wouldn't they?

 

[Masamune]

No, they used Fayth before Sin as well. Why wouldn't they?

Because the Fayth were designed as a trial for the next High Summoner?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Nah, I'm pretty sure Zanarkand summoner's used people as Fayth too. I mean, why wouldn't they? It was their knowledge of summoning that enabled them to create the multitude of Fayth that created Dream Zanarkand in the first place, and then Yunalesca passed that ancient Zanarkand secret to Bevelle in order to perpetuate the Yu Yevon religion.

The knowledge of Fayth came from Zanarkand so it just makes sense, they used said knowledge.

 

[Vendel]

The pros of X-2?

Three words. Hot Springs scene!!!

 

[Masamune]

Nah, I'm pretty sure Zanarkand summoner's used people as Fayth too. I mean, why wouldn't they? It was their knowledge of summoning that enabled them to create the multitude of Fayth that created Dream Zanarkand in the first place, and then Yunalesca passed that ancient Zanarkand secret to Bevelle in order to perpetuate the Yu Yevon religion.

The knowledge of Fayth came from Zanarkand so it just makes sense, they used said knowledge.

That'll do for me. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No problem

And the hot spring scene was rather humorous and...beautiful.

 

[Tetsujin]

I take it the Summoners before Sin used pyreflies to conjure beasts, instead of tapping into Fayth, right? Isn't that essentially what Yu Yevon did - transforming masses of spirit energy into Sin?

Yeah, but Sin doesn't count as a summon. The summoning of Zanarkand uses Fayth, and also blahblah insert what Mako said here.

 

[Tennyo]

No Sin is a summoning. The beast known as Sin is the armor that Yu Yevon summons to protect himself, using the final aeon (somehow lol).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sin isn't a summon done by Yu Yevon though. All he does is possess it, and craft armor around it to distort and protect it, with pyreflies. It then becomes a pyrefly organism. He isn't actually summoning anything. It ceases to be a summon when it turns into a parasitised pyrefly entity.

 

[Tetsujin]

I mean the first Sin. The first Sin was created by Yu Yevon by gathering pyreflies and forming them to Sin. It wasn't like the Aeons.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Pretty much. Yu Yevon, using Gravity magic, attracted a multitude of pyreflies to contruct the hulking body that is Sin, and thus, the magical creature was born, as pyrefly life form. It's like a fiend, but due to the sheer quantity of pyreflies that it is made of, its a lot stronger than any fiend imaginable, and it has full control over gravitational forces. And whatever damage is done to it can be regenerated by just sucking up more pyreflies.

 

[Nikkolas]

What do you guys think about the "It's not really Shuyin it's just a shadow comprised of his anger and hatred at not being able to save Lenne?" And by not really Shuyin, MAKE SURE YOU READ AND UNDERSTAND THIS SO THERE AREN'T PARAGRAPHS DEVOTED TO HOW I WAS WRONG EVEN WHEN I DEVOTED ONE SENTENCE TO IT, I mean yes him, but only a part of him. His anger materialized and didn't have the rest of his personality there to keep it in check.

I mean Tidus could get pretty angry himself. If the same happened to him that happened to Shuyin, Tidus could potentially turn out the same way.

thoughts?

The Fayth are clearly wrong when they say Shuyin is just a shadow of his former self. He is not just made of anger and resentment and pain. He shows when he first meets Yuna and then when the real Lenne arrives that his primary motivation has and always will be his love for Lenne. It's stronger than his rage.

The only materialized anger of Shuyin was in the Den of Woe when he left the pyreflies infected with his sadness to the point they could drive other people crazy.

His spirit did the same with the Fayt it seems.

And I don't see Tidus going the way of Shuyin. For one thing, Shuyin was already planning to use Vegnagun before Lenne died. Tidus never went to such extreme measures.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Shuyin that's left behind is a remnant of the Shuyin that died. It's a memory/shadow of who he was and it's not his full spirit. It's all of the negativity that was left behind imprinted onto the pyreflies. He's not an unsent. Yeah, it responds to certain things like the real Shuyin would, but he's warped. The FFX-2 Ultimania clearly states that the Shuyin encountered in the story is merely nothing more than his remnant or shadow.

The creators specifically say the Shuyin encountered in the story is naught but a shadow of the real man. Shuyin is almost exactly like the remnants of Sephiroth. He is merely an avatar of Shuyin's negative emotions given form and appearance, and operating based on Shuyin's memories, feelings, and goals.

 

[Nikkolas]

The Shuyin that's left behind is a remnant of the Shuyin that died. It's a memory/shadow of who he was and it's not his full spirit. It's all of the negativity that was left behind imprinted onto the pyreflies. He's not an unsent. Yeah, it responds to certain things like the real Shuyin would, but he's warped. The FFX-2 Ultimania clearly states that the Shuyin encountered in the story is merely nothing more than his remnant or shadow.

And it is completely vague and nonsensical as teh very translator of it observes.

The difference between pyreflies and spirit energy/souls is blurred anyway.

Fact is the Shuyin we see in the game shows every feeling the real Shuyin would just like the translator also mentions. The guide's talk is gibberish basically.

The creators specifically say the Shuyin encountered in the story is naught but a shadow of the real man. Shuyin is almost exactly like the remnants of Sephiroth. He is merely an avatar of Shuyin's negative emotions given form and appearance, and operating based on Shuyin's memories, feelings, and goals.

So...he thinks like Shuyin, feels like Shuyin, acts like Shuyin....It's nothing like the SHM They had their own personas. This Shuyin is exactly the same as the one a thousand years ago.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Not..really. The fact is, is that the FFX-2 Ultimania says the Shuyin is merely a pyrefly shadow. You're equating him to an unsent, which he is not. He is not the literal embodiment or spirit of Shuyin. The game clearly says he's a mere shadow of his former self. The rest of his real spirit probably passed on to the Farplane. What the translator fails to understand or postulate, is that, this is essentially what Sephiroth did in AC, in terms of spawning his remnants.

Sephiroth's strong feelings (like Shuyin) corrupt the surrounding spirit energy (in this case, pyreflies), and creates a shadow of his existence, that is able to move and work on its own as a spirit body or ghost that while similar, is not the same as their originating source.

It's not vague at all. It's clearly differentiating Shuyin's shadow, from the original Shuyin that lived. The original Shuyin was no where near as warped, bitter, or angry like the one shown in FFX-2. YRP state this, and mention several times how warped by despair he's become.

 

[Nikkolas]

Not..really. The fact is, is that the FFX-2 Ultimania says the Shuyin is merely a pyrefly shadow. You're equating him to an unsent, which he is not. He is not the literal embodiment or spirit of Shuyin. The game clearly says he's a mere shadow of his former self. The rest of his real spirit probably passed on to the Farplane. What the translator fails to understand or postulate, is that, this is essentially what Sephiroth did in AC, in terms of spawning his remnants.

Tell me this then. WHat is the difference between Auron in X and Shuyin in X-2?
Both are made of pyreflies.
Both have the memories they did in life.
Both talk and act like they did in life.

Why would Lenne manifest to lead a shadow to the Farplane to rest? According to you Shuyin is already there.

It's not vague at all. It's clearly differentiating Shuyin's shadow, from the original Shuyin that lived. The original Shuyin was no where near as warped, bitter, or angry like the one shown in FFX-2. YRP state this, and mention several times how warped by despair he's become.

Because the original Shuyin hadn't watched his love get shot and spent a millennium reflecting on that.
And as I've said, when it came down to it, all he did was love Lenne. He is not a minfestation of anger. He is everything that was Shuyin.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Auron is an unsent. His pyreflies didn't disperse, meld or change when he died. He kept them together with his strong will and attachment to Spira. His means of attachment are not just based on lingering feelings of hate, regret, envy or sorrow.

Shuyin's shadow are pyreflies that have melded together and have bonded to his strong emotions and feelings of "despair, hatred and negative destructive thoughts."

By that definition, Shuyin isn't an unsent. He's a shadow created from those emotions and pyreflies. Again, the game and Ultimania specifically say Shuyin is not the same as his old self. He's warped and full of negative feelings that can possess you. Auron can't possess people. He's an unsent pyreform. Shuyin is almost like a ghost.

And Lenne would put to rest that shadow so that it could finally be at peace and no longer exist in torment and misery. It may be a shadow but it still clearly has feelings and needs to go to rest.

Umm..way to go at contradicting the game and source material. This is what the game says:

Yuna: Please. Tell me. What is he?

Fayth: Shuyin? Just a shadow. It may look like him, but the real Shuyin died
long ago. Even after a thousand years, his hate and misery linger on. His
feelings grew so strong, they began to act on their own... Eventually, they
became a shadow—a shade that wants only to vanish, but cannot.

Yuna: Just a shadow... I can handle a shadow.

Shuyin

HP: 23850 Lenne's lover from the Zanarkand of a thousand years
MP: 210 past. He could not save her, and his consequent sorrow
EXP: 0 and despair linger in this shadowy form.
Gil: 0

And then the Ultimania guide says the same thing. I don't know how much more clearer the story can get. The Shuyin encountered is nothing more than a shadow. It's not the real, whole Shuyin.

 

[Nikkolas]

From the Ultimania...

. The Shuyin in the
story is full of the despair, hatred and negative destructive thoughts of the
Shuyin of 1000 years ago,

So again, he has only the feelings Shuyin had to begin with.

And like I said, nonsense.

As seen in the Yevon Dome in X, in places where pyreflies are densely packed,
they will remember moments from the past and project them. In regard to the
Shuyin in the story, these kinds of phantom thoughts began acting on their
own, in a unique case of those who have died.

That only happens with massive clusters of pyreflies. Shuyin died and there weren't a one floating around. The analogy the Ultimania provides fails.

Anyway, onto your stuff.

Auron is an unsent. His pyreflies didn't disperse, meld or change when he died. He kept them together with his strong will and attachment to Spira. His means of attachment are not just based on lingering feelings of hate, regret, envy or sorrow.

Attachment is attachment. Seymour's attachment to his belief in eradicating all life kept him here as an unsent.
Attachment can be anything.

By that definition, Shuyin isn't an unsent. He's a shadow created from those emotions and pyreflies. Again, the game and Ultimania specifically say Shuyin is not the same as his old self. He's warped and full of negative feelings that can possess you. Auron can't possess people. He's an unsent pyreform. Shuyin is almost like a ghost.

And again what the game says is irrelevant to what the game shows. The game shows his love is stronger than negative feelings thus he is not just composed of those negative feelings.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, but the thing is, the shadow only has that. He's filled with them. The original Shuyin didn't operate on just feelings of negativity. Unless you think Shuyin was a negative person to begin with. And again, the game states that that's the difference. The shadow is only one part of the whole Shuyin. Only his negative aspects.

That only happens with massive clusters of pyreflies. Shuyin died and there weren't a one floating around. The analogy the Ultimania provides fails.

Are you forgetting the Den of Woe? That place is filled with the pyreflies soaked in Shuyin's negative feelings. His pyreflies spread and continue to spread his feelings. The analogy doesn't fail, and the fact is, that's what the creator's say. I don't know how you think you're better at disseminating the facts of the source material, than the very creators.

Attachment is attachment. Seymour's attachment to his belief in eradicating all life kept him here as an unsent.
Attachment can be anything.

Shuyin's shadow isn't just existing based on an attachment. That would make him an unsent. He's merely existing as negative feelings that won't die. He's a lingering ghost.

And again what the game says is irrelevant to what the game shows. The game shows his love is stronger than negative feelings thus he is not just composed of those negative feelings.

Umm..no its not because thats the game. You're taking it out of context and the actual definition. They show plenty of times how the Shuyin of the game, is merely a shadow by showing how its capable of possessing people and being merely a shell of his former self, filled with regret, destruction and negativity. That's not how the real Shuyin was, nor is that how an unsent operates. It sounds like you're just ignoring everything contrary to your opinion.

And how are the Fayth, game, and Ultimania all wrong? The Fayth would know best anyways considering they reside on the Farplane and would safely be able to state the fact of him dying a long time ago. Furthermore they encountered his shadow first hand and know what it is. And that's ignoring the fact of what the creators say themselves.

 

[Nikkolas]

Are you forgetting the Den of Woe?

That's not where Shuyin died.

The analogy doesn't fail, and the fact is, that's what the creator's say. I don't know how you think you're better at disseminating the facts of the source material, than the very creators.

Because I'm just following what the game told me.
A. Lots of pyreflies etain memories.
B. There weren't any pyreflies where Shuyin died.
C. Only possibility is his corpse can have memories and they got into the pyeflies in the Den of Woe after he died...which is posible, I guess?

Umm..no its not because thats the game. You're taking it out of context and the actual definition. They show plenty of times how the Shuyin of the game, is merely a shadow by showing how its capable of possessing people and being merely a shell of his former self, filled with regret, destruction and negativity. That's not how the real Shuyin was, nor is that how an unsent operates. It sounds like you're just ignoring everything contrary to your opinion.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm pointing out an obvious flaw in your idea and you're putting your fingers in your ears and humming.
For one thing, you know nothing about the real Shuyin. You're guessing.
You know even less about how that Shuyin would react to a thousand years of thinking of Lenne dying.

And, again his love for Lenne was stronger than anything. That's blatantly obvious.

And how are the Fayth, game, and Ultimania all wrong? The Fayth would know best anyways considering they reside on the Farplane and would safely be able to state the fact of him dying a long time ago. Furthermore they encountered his shadow first hand and know what it is. And that's ignoring the fact of what the creators say themselves.

Because he abandoned all that hate, destruction and crap to be with Lenne.
He is not composed entirely of negative feelings. Get over it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's not where he died, but its where those influenced pyreflies traveled and thus mixed and further amplified his feelings. All those pyreflies reacted to the feelings carried by the other wandering pyreflies and thus he became a ghost.

And that's not what the game is telling you. The game constantly hammers it into the player that Shuyin is a shadow. They call him that numerous times in reference to his existence. So no, you're apparently not following what the game is saying, if you're running contrary to what the script, storyline, and creator commentary says on the matter.

And it's not my idea. It's the creators. I didn't write the story nor the FFX-2 Ultimania.

For one thing, you know nothing about the real Shuyin. You're guessing.
You know even less about how that Shuyin would react to a thousand years of thinking of Lenne dying.

You're right, I don't. But I'm sure the creators do, since its their story and their universe. And they say Shuyin in FFX-2 is a shadow of his former self, that died 1000 years ago. I'm sure they know the real Shuyin since they wrote him. You don't know the real Shuyin either.

Because he abandoned all that hate, destruction and crap to be with Lenne.
He is not composed entirely of negative feelings. Get over it.

That's sure not what the game or creators say.