SPOILERS Crazed fan drives Kazushige Nojima to no longer discuss FFVII on twitter

[Makoeyes987]

but things conducive of "please let Cloud and Aerith have their happy ending" or "please let us save Aerith"—these aren't "do it or else", or angry

And that's what I'm talking about. These aren't new comments, questions or requests they haven't heard before. This is common. They've heard it all before. Fans are fans, and this is typical. Ask or look at any manga-ka twitter, Instagram or Facebook and you have fans begging over certain things in the present. Hell, look at Game of Thrones.

We're not talking about that. And equivocating typical fandom shit with what Jairus did is unrealistic and ultimately diminishes what he did as a singular person. It's not the same.

but when you have multiple saying a lot of things that are about the outcome of the story, that's not really a good look either.

A lot of things aren't a "good look." Please don't lump everything together. People who beg pop stars to "have their babies" while flashing their tits at them aren't a "good look" but are we really going to pretend that hasn't been happening since The Beetles?

Fans obviously do weird shit. But how many fans actually have the balls to write a letter, demanding they commit to them as their true love or threaten them with fans outright hating their work if the story doesn't follow a specific trail of ambiguity?

These things are not the same. Just because something is a "bad look" doesn't equate to it being an egregious assault on personal privacy or integrity in their profession. Please don't broad brush like that.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Tweeting about how people should be fired or spreading lies about the development team based on misconstruing interviews and Nojima's tweets, using his tweets and likes as personal arguments in the "ship war", or sending long tweets about not wanting your favorite character to die (there was an Clerith fan who supposedly did this back in 2020)—these aren't just "bad looks", they're unacceptable behavior that sets a "way of being" on the platform within the circles of the people who do these things. All the while this being the front of which they use to attack each other. Constantly calling Jairus' actions the extreme of an already rotting tree isn't diminishing it—it's me truly saying "Hey, you see that there? Yeah keep it up, and that's where you'll be heading", because the matter of fact is that what we're deeming as toxic and negative behavior within these parts of the fandom aren't that far removed from what he did.

It isn't about being the equal, but it's about pointing out that it's the end of what otherwise has been a pattern of shitty behavior exhibited online. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to all these things suddenly because what is considered a degree worse than happened. It's time to point all that shit out and stop it altogether, that's what most people will do if they see something go too far of which they themselves were already a part of. This should encourage people to stop doing these things, not just say "we aren't him". And I'm not in the interest of cherry-picking within the negativity, because the things people say and have done to each other, either to official accounts or using what they do—get rid of it all. That's the point I'm making.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tweeting about how people should be fired or spreading lies about the development team based on misconstruing interviews and Nojima's tweets

Okay, who did that? What's the context there?

I'm not going to turn a blind eye to all these things suddenly because what is considered a degree worse than happened. It's time to point all that shit out and stop it altogether, that's what most people will do if they see something go too far of which they themselves were already a part of. This should encourage people to stop doing these things, not just say "we aren't him".

That's literally impossible. Bad behavior from fans has been a thing since before you or I were ever born. The fact it's transferred to online spaces is only the result of said fans being online. You're never going to stop it, and it will never be stopped. It's a symptom of individual personalities that are warped and obsessive. That's honestly more a goal platforms themselves have to reach for. How are fans going to police other fans' behavior when we have no authority or command over their agency? We can try to sanction or shame them but ultimately they're just other people. That's never worked.

This is the reality of the situation. I get what you're saying about "that's where you'll be heading" but I think that's sorta missing the point of what Jairus did, and trying to make this some "teachable moment" which, I guess you could say it is. But, again. I haven't seen someone directly engaging or attempting to demand an FFVII writer do something with a current FFVII project that was still in progress. Weird fans being weird is well-trodden ground that will always be a thing, no matter what. There's no fandom anywhere, during any time that has not had it's weirdos.

Hell, antis are the opposite of shippers who literally horseshoe'd themselves into weird toxic fans, in attempts to fight back against toxic shipper fans. Sorta revealing about the nature of "fandom" in general.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Okay, who did that? What's the context there?

In particular, that would be specific Cloti fans on Twitter/Tumblr, who otherwise constantly berate the localization, calling for Ben Sabin and the whole team to be fired, taking a tweet of Nojima's to be about him "throwing shade" at the localization division, and misunderstanding the localization interviews in order to further stigmatize the ENG translators—this through misunderstanding anything about how SE does their localization. As much as I'd love to say it was just one person, it is very numerous within a particular circle of numerous Cloti fans because it's spread as misinformation. Like all things, it would be "fans being fans", as in people doing this same thing when they're unhappy about anything, but what is said and done, like @ing the NA twitter or using Nojima's tweets for said things, is the start of very toxic perceptions about the development team.

That's literally impossible. Bad behavior from fans has been a thing since before you or I were ever born. The fact it's transferred to online spaces is only the result of said fans being online. You're never going to stop it, and it will never be stopped. It's a symptom of individual personalities that are warped and obsessive. That's honestly more a goal platforms themselves have to reach for. How are fans going to police other fans' behavior when we have no authority or command over their agency? We can try to sanction or shame them but ultimately they're just other people. That's never worked.

So what is it that you think I'm trying to do here, Mako? I'm not Michael Scott and am standing in a room yelling "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY" and expect all the debts to go away. I've already made my own posts even on my own Twitter of these similar sentiments, and that of calling out the bad behavior before this has happened—even specifically for Jairus as an individual. I was here during his tirade on the site and condemning his actions of even getting mad at content creators for not using Jessie in their thumbnails. It feels like you think I'm just using this as an opportunity to put all the bad apples on equal ground, as in doing the exact same thing that Jairus did, but that doesn't need to be done to recognize what he did is also a part of a persistent problem that should always be condemned and fought to change within online behavior.

Edit: And there is that example of the Clerith fan writing to Nojima on Twitter, which there is a whole thread of people @ing him about the story. Some are really just the run of the mill as you said, but if you go deeper in the rabbit hole (which is really just "sides of the war" trying to one up each other on pulling out "receipts", it's a thing. I haven't seen anything with the same approach as Jairus, but there is the point that this behavior isn't just on another planet, it's a similar pattern to the negativity exhibited already.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In particular, that would be specific Cloti fans on Twitter/Tumblr, who otherwise constantly berate the localization, calling for Ben Sabin and the whole team to be fired, taking a tweet of Nojima's to be about him "throwing shade" at the localization division, and misunderstanding the localization interviews in order to further stigmatize the ENG translators—this through misunderstanding anything about how SE does their localization. As much as I'd love to say it was just one person, it is very numerous within a particular circle of numerous Cloti fans because it's spread as misinformation. Like all things, it would be "fans being fans", as in people doing this same thing when they're unhappy about anything, but what is said and done, like @ing the NA twitter or using Nojima's tweets for said things, is the start of very toxic perceptions about the development team.

So misinformed negative criticism. Yeah, that's fucked up. I think I'm even aware of the circle of Clotis you're talking about. Yeah, they are very toxic.

So what is it that you think I'm trying to do here, Mako? I'm not Michael Scott and am standing in a room yelling "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY" and expect all the debts to go away. I've already made my own posts even on my own Twitter of these similar sentiments, and that of calling out the bad behavior before this has happened—even specifically for Jairus as an individual. I was here during his tirade on the site and condemning his actions of even getting mad at content creators for not using Jessie in their thumbnails. It feels like you think I'm just using this as an opportunity to put all the bad apples on equal ground, as in doing the exact same thing that Jairus did, but that doesn't need to be done to recognize what he did is also a part of a persistent problem that should always be condemned and fought to change within online behavior.

I guess I just feel like such things, while admirable in terms of trying tamp down toxicity, don't really reflect the realistic swing or outcomes of fandom. This fandom is ultimately going to have toxic people in it, no matter what is done. honestly don't know of any way to get rid of it. Appealing to their sensibilities is unlikely to work because if they had such sensibilities, they wouldn't be toxic. In the end, I would like for someone like Jairus to be seen as the significant negative anomaly where obsession meets access, and why fans should keep their bullshit to themselves.

It seems we agree but our perspectives on the nature of fandom and its course are somewhat different and I was missing that intent of yours. Fair enough.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I have to agree with Mako. It's so easy to say people are doing these things, much like the "death threats" I mentioned before, but without any evidence to prove people have been bothering Nojima before now, there's no reason to think this was anything other than Jairus himself being an asshole and crossing the line.

My point isn’t to blame Jairus’ actions on all shippers though, the point is that any shipping toxicity regardless of who it’s targeted towards is a problem and has been a problem long before Jairus

We're not talking about that. And equivocating typical fandom shit with what Jairus did is unrealistic and ultimately diminishes what he did as a singular person. It's not the same.

I think handwaiving the regular toxicity that happens between Clerith and Cloti as “typical fandom shit” is part of why we’re here. It should not be typical.

The obvious fact here is that just because it’s typical, that doesn’t mean it should be accepted. I’ve only been a fan since 2020 and I can attest that Jairus is far from the only toxic shipper out there. We can do both criticize Jairus as an individual and criticize toxic aspects of the shipping culture that we all know have long been an issue in the community. Hell, we do it here all the time. There’s no reason to treat the two issues as mutually exclusive. And because people engaged with Jairus expecting typical internet shipping blood sports, all it did was give him more attention.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

It seems we agree but our perspectives on the nature of fandom and its course are somewhat different and I was missing that intent of yours. Fair enough.

Yeah, I don't think we're too different, but my "optimism" for change is probably because I've just been in the thick of it on Twitter and Tumblr. Sometimes actually talking to these individuals, but mostly seeing it. And seen I have. I guess we do differ in that I see Jairus as an extension of all I've witnessed, but as empirical as it is, I know everyone on this site has seen that pie too. I wasn't here, but I've read posts way back, during the "War of Koibito" translations as well. Didn't look like fun. I just want some accountability and to push better "ways of being", that's all.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And because people engaged with Jairus expecting typical internet shipping blood sports, all it did was give him more attention.

Now, that I can definitely agree with and see the point about. The guy who put Jairus on his livestream for an LTD kumbaya hash out was extraordinarily naive and elevated him to a level he had no business being on. Especially given his track record for abuse, harassment and obsession.

That was a huge mistake, and he ultimately apologized for it and felt regret seeing what Jairus did regarding all this.

But you're absolutely right. I see your perspective on that, especially with that instance. People thought Jairus was just a shipper when in reality, he was far worst. And that expectation enabled him.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

And that's kind of the heart of where my perspective about fandom is at. Jairus used shipping as a mechanism to exhibit his problematic behavior that is tell-tale sign of something that goes beyond what it truly means to just ship something (which at its core, is just enjoying fiction characters/relationships). A lot of the things we've all seen over the years has been the same concept. We've seen people use shipping as a means to be completely vitriol to each other, to stigmatize, to spread lies and argue for the sake of their own hubris—just nasty and really irrational stuff that sometimes seems confusing for a real life person to do and perceive things. 90% of the observable online behavior of a lot of these people (for their social media accounts, anyway) is spent holding the line for "the war" and their ship, when in reality, it's probably just for other things and reflective of some personal issues. And there's a gravity this kind of thing has in social media spaces, for some reason. I just don't care for any of it.

Jairus is....that domino that tipped one too many down. My experience with him was first before the Remake's release when he was trying to convince everyone why the writers should have Jessie be the "third" option, I'm sure ya'll remember that exhausting period of time. Seeing things beyond that though, to the point of getting mad at someone not using Jessie in a thumbnail? Yeah. It's an extreme, but for my eyes on these other platforms, it's just one of many things that hurt my eyes to even look at it.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Sadly, I have no optimism for change lol which is why where I’m at right now, I say if Cloud and Tifa being together is what the story calls for, then the devs should just go full throttle with it. Don’t leave any room for doubt.

And by that, I don’t mean shove as much shipping bait into the story as possible. Fanfiction writers can handle that one. Hell, all Jairus needed to do was just stick to his fanfiction and not be so creepy online. That goes for all shippers, too. If they don’t like what’s in the story, fine. But just chill.

I specifically remember Jairus using other shippers’ toxicity as a means of deflecting critics of his own behavior. And on that specific point, I couldn’t entirely disagree because it’s true that many other shippers were guilty of toxicity too. Obviously doesn’t excuse his behavior, but does that really need to be clarified at this point? Just like how does it really need to be clarified that not all shippers are bad?

Ask a Clerith or a Cloti who they think is the worst of the two, and you can pretty much guess what they’re gonna say. It’s really the deflections and whataboutisms that frustrate me the most about the LTD. Jairus does it, Cleriths do it, Clotis do it. Par for the course, really.

I don’t know the whole story behind the Clerith shipper known as Cali or any other shippers of note for that matter, I just know that the toxic shipping environment that already existed was perfect breeding ground for somebody like Jairus. So I don’t get bothered when people talk about toxic shipping in general. Not because I think all shippers are bad, but because I know most shippers are alright and that it only takes a few people to ruin everybody else’s fun.

I can’t tell anybody not to be upset at people who complain about shippers, because even I would say there comes a point where it’s like “okay, we get it.” But there’d be a lot less shipping to complain about if the weirdest of the bunch weren’t so…weird. So I’d rather direct my displeasure at the root of the issue, really.

 

[Rose_of_Night]

So, I came back from the lurking dead when I saw the news articles about this making the rounds on facebook, because you guys always have the best tea about the situation.

...I think I spat the metaforical tea through my nose when I saw who cascaded this

 

[LNK]

Now, that I can definitely agree with and see the point about. The guy who put Jairus on his livestream for an LTD kumbaya hash out was extraordinarily naive and elevated him to a level he had no business being on. Especially given his track record for abuse, harassment and obsession.

That was a huge mistake, and he ultimately apologized for it and felt regret seeing what Jairus did regarding all this.

But you're absolutely right. I see your perspective on that, especially with that instance. People thought Jairus was just a shipper when in reality, he was far worst. And that expectation enabled him.

I can see why he did it though. Rather, why I hope he did it.

I think for a lot of us, we want to be the one that can help someone like Jairus. Even if others tried and failed, we wanna try too.

 

[frosty]

I'm gonna interrupt the convo between mako and melodic enigma because I have to comment on that fan that asked Nojima to let Aerith live...by extrapolating it to her life - that she doesn't want to grow up sexy (bad), she thinks good, compassionate, caring girls are punished because Aerith died, Aerith should live and be rewarded because good women like her, compassionate and caring, should live and...deserve a man as a prize?

Gross gross gross gross gross. I dunno what is worse, straight up being entitled and demanding or trying to covetly guilt trip a creator by implying an alternative choice is "less moral" and implying he punishes the "moral" option

 

[Makoeyes987]

LMAO what?

Please share that. That's wild. That's pretty fucked up too. Emotional blackmail and role projection. Amazing.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Yeah I late edited into one of my posts, but that Clerith Fan here was what I was talking about that was a similar long-winded thing to Nojima—its was one of the "receipts" (I really hate saying this lol) that someone brought up in a good ol' convesation where everyone's trying to one up each other about this whole ordeal.

 

[Odysseus]

So, I came back from the lurking dead when I saw the news articles about this making the rounds on facebook, because you guys always have the best tea about the situation.

...I think I spat the metaforical tea through my nose when I saw who cascaded this

Small world, huh?

 

[looneymoon]

Fandom is like jerk off habits. Totally fun and normal to do, but will easily get weird if you make it weird.

Idk I'm drunk I didn't think about this analogy that hard.

 

[Erotic Materia]

I'm gonna take the low road here. I've not directly interacted with J-Dog since shortly after I lost my shit on him 2 years ago. But seeing the absolute mountain of collective internet rage finally get dumped on him feels so fucking good. I would bathe in this sensation if I could.

I know I should try to be better. I don't care. He's an adult, fuck him.

 

[Odysseus]

He's an adult

All this does get a lot more fucked when you realize the guy is in his late 40's.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh, Jairus 100% deserves everything. No lie in that

If he knew better, he'd make like the FFVII house chick and just ditch FFVII fandom entirely.

 

[null]

Yeah I late edited into one of my posts, but that Clerith Fan here was what I was talking about that was a similar long-winded thing to Nojima—its was one of the "receipts" (I really hate saying this lol) that someone brought up in a good ol' convesation where everyone's trying to one up each other about this whole ordeal.

I know exactly where that fan's coming from. For once can we have a Final Fantasy game with a sense of escapism? Isn't it high time for caring girls who put others first to survive and get a happy ending? Please think of the children.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL wow. That was... A lot of psychic damage to take in at once.

For once can we have a Final Fantasy game with a sense of escapism? Isn't it high time for caring girls who put others first to survive and get a happy ending? Please think of the children.

LOL yeah it's like they've never seen...

*gestures broadly to FFs 1 through 6, 8, 9, 10, 12....*

Just... Wow. I get liking Aerith but, you kinda kill the point of the entire saga/story when you just...

I don't even need to go into it.

 

[null]

I think some people just want the same story over and over. Or maybe they really are ignorant of the other FF games and decide to @ the head writer anyway.

Dunno. There's lots of stories with romance out there. Some of them even focus on romance and they're really good. Why do fans always seem to fixate on the few that buck the trend? Like Evangelion, I think it's a breath of fresh air: maybe love isn't the answer. Maybe romance and sex solve problems the same way alcohol does. Maybe two drowning people using each other as life preservers isn't going to work. Why not just appreciate stories and messages like these for what they are, and get the waifu/husbando/self-insert fix somewhere else? Most anime are practically clinics for that sort of thing.

 

[Eerie]

All this does get a lot more fucked when you realize the guy is in his late 40's.

...... I'm going to pretend this post doesn't exist, because FUCK NOPE. At least I hope his kid is big enough, though maybe already big enough to understand what's going on? Fuck that. I thought this guy was in his late 20s/beginning of 30s, shit.

Yeah I late edited into one of my posts, but that Clerith Fan here was what I was talking about that was a similar long-winded thing to Nojima—its was one of the "receipts" (I really hate saying this lol) that someone brought up in a good ol' convesation where everyone's trying to one up each other about this whole ordeal.

I've seen that kind of take way too much to not understand why Tifa and clotis fans are pissed beyond belief, sadly. It's widespread. And it's as effed up as some widespread theories from the cloti side.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Gross gross gross gross gross. I dunno what is worse, straight up being entitled and demanding or trying to covetly guilt trip a creator by implying an alternative choice is "less moral" and implying he punishes the "moral" option

Sadly, our boy is guilty of both what with his list of demands along with his philosophy of equal representation for the Clessie ship

But seeing the absolute mountain of collective internet rage finally get dumped on him feels so fucking good. I would bathe in this sensation if I could.

I’m having a hard time describing my feelings, something of a mix between “this could’ve been avoided so easily” and “this was bound to happen eventually”

Isn't it high time for caring girls who put others first to survive and get a happy ending? Please think of the children.

I mean we pretty much got that…but with Tifa lol

I think some people just want the same story over and over. Or maybe they really are ignorant of the other FF games and decide to @ the head writer anyway.

Some of the responses to the remake’s direction certainly lend themselves to this, I mean there’s far better ways to criticize the remake than “REEEEE KINGDOM HEARTS NOMURA BAD”