SPOILERS Crazed fan drives Kazushige Nojima to no longer discuss FFVII on twitter

[LNK]

Ah, well what I mentioned was a long time ago for the OG regarding fan's negative reaction to Aerith's death

I would think that counts though. Especially since the ones who are making ff7R, were apart of ff7OG. I also read there were recent death threats to remake Tifa's japanese voice actress. I'll bet Nojima took all of this into account. Unless he's a person that thinks "well, it didn't happen to me, so I don't care."

 

[Shademp]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483275489443778568

As a person who loves Nojima's guinea pig posts, this art is especially wonderful.

Also, turns out Nojima's birthday is on January 20th.

 

[Prism]

Wow...I'm absolutely speechless. To think the guy responsible for forum drama rose to the levels to become infamous not only to us, but to the broader social media fandom and (importantly) Nojima himself. That's insane. It's like a reverse Maximilian Dude situation, where being known by the developers really invigorated their spirits.

People are already too invested in shipping dogma as it is (true when it was cloudandaerith.com people in the 90s, true when it was weird DeviantArt users in the mid 2000s, true now...probably more true than ever before, actually, now that twitter has made industry figures more accessible, thus resulting in this even being possible in the first place)

What a guy...I didn't think his infamy would rise to this level. It would be impressive if it weren't so disturbing. The amount of mental space he dedicates to this is beyond pathological and, honestly, seems to rise to the level that would require psychological treatment. But I feel like that's been evident to everyone for a while.

Glad to see people rallying around Nojima with positivity.

 

[Jessie Rito]

It's really getting out of hand ,huh? When I first joined here I thought jairus was okay (well backnthem i also thought he was in his twenties max) but its getting worse and worse. Surely he's not the only obe to blame here but he definetly played a very big part in it. Kinda sad if you think about it. I bet there are many who cant enjoy the game anore because of his bs

 

[Odysseus]

Jessie discourse has certainly been damaged beyond repair because of him, at least among people who know about his antics.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Expect to see a lot of “see this is why X is toxic but we’re definitely not” from people who are also culpable in contributing to this culture of toxicity among shippers. It’s just like Spider-Man fans obsessed with arguing over which live-action portrayal is best. Most people are chill and they just want to appreciate what they like, but there’s always a few messing it up for everybody else.

Jessie discourse has certainly been damaged beyond repair because of him, at least among people who know about his antics.

Exactly…it’s so surreal to think about how much attention he’s gotten for his behavior, but the irony is that his efforts to try to elevate the Clessie fanbase to match that of Cloti or Clerith might have done the exact opposite

It's like a reverse Maximilian Dude situation, where being known by the developers really invigorated their spirits.

Maximilian_DOOD: Cloud x Tifa shipper who isn’t outspoken about shipping and was acknowledged by the devs for positivity

Jairus: Cloud x Jessie shipper who is so outspoken about shipping that he’s gotten attention for his toxicity

Jairus is the Bizarro version of Max

Other fans have jumped on the "the shippers are so toxic" bandwagon to make... videos or whatnot about it? Yeah thanks for creating something so positive and attacking all shippers when it was one guy.

To be fair though, the toxic shipping in the FF7 fanbase is bigger than Jairus…there are absolutely Clerith and Cloti shippers who are just as deserving to be dragged by the rest of the community, it just so happens that Jairus managed to go viral with his antics

 

[Eerie]

To be fair though, the toxic shipping in the FF7 fanbase is bigger than Jairus…there are absolutely Clerith and Cloti shippers who are just as deserving to be dragged by the rest of the community, it just so happens that Jairus managed to go viral with his antics

When I see people playing "better than thou" because "they don't ship", they "think Cloud wants to get on with everybody anyway", they're as toxic as the others. Ok, you don't ship, so what? Those people never went after Jairus for his antics, but they're ready to claim they're "not toxic" when the shit they spout shows that they barely understand what's going on in FFVII and attack people for the fun they get out of a game.

Yes there are other shippers who are also toxic and bad, but visibly not as bad as Jairus (he went and agressively harrassed people on Twitter because they dared make fanarts of pairs/girls that were not clessie/Jessie FFS and I haven't even seen cleriths do that) - and no one triggered such a frank "nope" from Nojima EVER despite series of long tweets. It's not a reason to paint ALL SHIPPERS HORRIBLE mmh nope. A large majority of shippers are totally fine, they're just not as outspoken as the worst ones.

 

[Jessie Rito]

Got i hate toxic drama

 

[LNK]

While my LTD involvement is only through this site, I'm thankful for it. I've seen a few bumps in the road in the couple years I've been here, but for the most part it's pretty civil. Seems like all of us recognize that Cloud and Tifa are canon, but a few might prefer Cloud and Aerith or Cloud and Jessie. There's nothing wrong with personal preferences, as long as they stay personal.

 

[ForceStealer]

Even most of the shippers turned 30 and had other shit to worry about

 

[Eerie]

Look I'm 45 and my fun is to analyse the characters and the story lol. Even debating stuff, may it be LTD or not, tires me XD My brain just nopes out because it's already onto other shit. At this point, regarding the LT, I'm just like "meh, SE will shut it anyway" so whatever. But I really do enjoy to look at our main trio and try to understand what is going on, mostly because... I don't think it's as simple as many shippers make it out to be, whatever their side. I disagree with a lot of clotis theories myself, I'm known for this XD

 

[KindOfBlue]

they "think Cloud wants to get on with everybody anyway", they're as toxic as the others.

Those people are just wrong, but I wouldn’t go as far as saying they’re as toxic as people who are actually harassing others unless they do the same.

But it should be pretty telling that the reason people even have a problem with shippers in the first place is because too many of them are awful. I’ll agree that it’s wrong to paint all shippers as bad, but there’s a reason why people have such a bad impression of shippers in general.

Most people are smart enough to understand not all shippers are bad, but I think we can come up with better answers to the problems of mob mentality and toxicity among shippers than the knee-jerk defensive response of “but we’re not all bad”, like yeah, we know.

At the end of the day it doesn't boil down to shippers at all. It's literally one guy who is obsessed over something to the point he openly attacks others, the issue is with him not communities.

It’s easy to say that in this instance because Clessie was such a fringe ship until recently, but we can’t pretend that there aren’t corners of the community who enable toxicity among Clerith and Cloti shippers. I mean, haven’t the 20+ years of the LTD demonstrated exactly that?

 

[Eerie]

Those people are just wrong, but I wouldn’t go as far as saying they’re as toxic as people who are actually harassing others unless they do the same.

And so the better thing is not to silently mute the tags, but to openly talk about it in the tags, litterally flooding with everyone else and telling everyone who actually likes the pairings, may they be good or bad, that they're bad people?

Yeah right. They're trolls. You know what I don't like? Clerith (the pairing). What I don't do? Go in the clerith tag to tell them I don't like them nor their pairing and that they suck. because, that's not how someone should act, ever. You just GTFO the tags you don't like, do you need to talk about what you don't like for hours, all the while plaguing the very same tag which has tons of users who will get angry at your antics? Do you simply not see the problem here? The more people act like this, the more it will make shippers tired and angry to be the target of about everyone, there will be bitterness, and that's when quiet shippers begin to not be so quiet because they are fed up.

You think FFVII fandom is bad? Newsflash, it's not even the worse. If you think it's bad, don't set a foot into k-pop.

 

[Makoeyes987]

but we can’t pretend that there aren’t corners of the community who enable toxicity among Clerith and Cloti shippers. I mean, haven’t the 20+ years of the LTD demonstrated exactly that?

Toxicity? Yes.

Toxicity that pierces the heavens and literally eyepokes God with it's disturbing tenacity and disrespect? No.

A lot of shipping is "toxic." That's just reality. Naruto/Sakura, Ichigo/Rukia and Deku/Bakugo shippers have all been labeled or thrown under the "toxic" label.

But tell me when a writer has had to literally go:

 

[Wol]

Jairus is still at it? Imagine using all this time and energy to build up something actually useful in your fucking life.

Nobody cares about your garbage pair. Jessie is a forgettable npc at best. Tifa x Cloud forever

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah right. They're trolls. You know what I don't like? Clerith (the pairing). What I don't do? Go in the clerith tag to tell them I don't like them nor their pairing and that they suck. because, that's not how someone should act, ever. You just GTFO the tags you don't like, do you need to talk about what you don't like for hours, all the while plaguing the very same tag which has tons of users who will get angry at your antics? Do you simply not see the problem here? The more people act like this, the more it will make shippers tired and angry to be the target of about everyone, there will be bitterness, and that's when quiet shippers begin to not be so quiet because they are fed up.

I very clearly said the people who complain about shippers aren’t as toxic as those who harass people unless they do the same. In the same way you don’t want shippers to all be lumped in a box, you shouldn’t do the same when people voice their displeasure with a very loud part of the fanbase that ruins the environment for everybody. It’s the same idea, some people are cool and some aren’t. At no point did I approve of flooding any tags.

You think FFVII fandom is bad? Newsflash, it's not even the worse. If you think it's bad, don't set a foot into k-pop.

“At least we’re not as bad as THOSE rabid fans” really isn’t the most responsible way to address toxicity

Toxicity? Yes.

Toxicity that pierces the heavens and literally eyepokes God with it's disturbing tenacity and disrespect? No.

A lot of shipping is "toxic." That's just reality. Naruto/Sakura, Ichigo/Rukia and Deku/Bakugo shippers have all been labeled or thrown under the "toxic" label.

But tell me when a writer has had to literally go:

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You don’t think this could been the tipping point of a long-standing issue in the fanbase? I mean it’s not like somebody like Jairus just popped up out of thin air, this was bound to happen at some point

I'm not saying there isn't toxicity in the shipping community, what I'm saying is that there is a singular person who has been identified as the reason why an important content creator has made a decision to no longer engage with fans.

Your right in the sense that the LTD has been ongoing for years and years but realistically when have you seen a singular person alienate an entire fanbase and spread so much viterol to this degree solely based on his own crusade to have a lesser fictional character appear as a love interest?

Nobody’s disagreeing that Jairus has become a huge problem in the fanbase, what I’m saying is it’s not a good precedent to set when the rest of the widespread shipping toxicity can be so easily handwaived with “welp, at least I’m not like that guy”

 

[Makoeyes987]

You don’t think this could been the tipping point of a long-standing issue in the fanbase? I mean it’s not like somebody like Jairus just popped up out of thin air, this was bound to happen at some point

Maybe? But that requires direct evidence.

As shitty or toxic some shippers are, I have no reason to believe or assume that they've been @ing or sending angry emails to Nomura, Nojima or Kitase. I only need to look at the actual evidence of toxic acts done against other fans.

Generalizing or assuming this was the "last straw" with a circumstance that's already in and of itself unprecedented, sorta minimizes the specificity of it's egregiousness. Jairus isn't some collective manifestation or "sin" of FFVII fandom. He's his own individual and did this himself. Collectivizing his offense does no good at all. It's only going to be used as propaganda, as we see with how some toxic shippers trying to "pin" Jairus on those they don't like.

Jairus belongs to Jairus.

 

[Odysseus]

I have to agree with Mako. It's so easy to say people are doing these things, much like the "death threats" I mentioned before, but without any evidence to prove people have been bothering Nojima before now, there's no reason to think this was anything other than Jairus himself being an asshole and crossing the line.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

@ing the official NA Twitter account, angry at the ENG localization and how they need to "get their shit together" is a part of the same tree in this irresponsible behavior. Which, if to specify to @ing a writer (I believe only Nojima is on Twitter), I've seen people @ing him before and essentially egging on their favorite ship—of course none of this was "angry", but other "sides" using that as a means to go at each other for that (it's happening right now, I've seen a Cloti showing "receipts" as a way to prove the other side is wrong too), along with people going out of their way to also use Nojima's tweets and likes as ammunition for their own bad behavior—this has been happening, and isn't anything new, it's from the same crappy forest. To me, Jairus is simply considered the extreme of what has already been similarly done within specific circles of the FF7 Twitter fandom, and like I said before, this extends further than just that platform. You'll find the similar circles and even more tailored things on other sites, like Tumblr.

It isn't a point to say everyone's like Jairus, but as someone who's been on the backseat and even engaged every once and a while, WE know the type of behavior this incident represents isn't truly unprecedented. Things always seem like a majority when you're limited in it, so I'm not taking a headcount of every single FF7 fan, I can't do that. But I can at least see where the problems lay, the environments where they fester, and the echo chamber, carried perceptions that people act on in those spaces. It's not about blaming every shipper/non-shipper, because it's never just one thing, it's just any person who attaches themselves to bad behavior. I still think instead of just being like "it's just Jairus", it should be that moment for those type of people to have self reflection, take a step back and realize that THAT is the end of the road if they keep indulging in this dumb stuff.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Who's directly @ing Nojima over the direction and future writing of FFVII-R? I'm talking specifically trying to communicate to him with an explicit message or threat to make a "ship" or narrative outcome happen. Like Jairus did.

There's a difference between @ing or commenting towards an account versus a direct line of communication meant to threaten or coerce an outcome.

Celebrities get @'d all the time by fans over silly shit. But some deadass threatening them over how they write is as I said, Misery tier shit.

Only time something resembling this happened, was someone messaging Kubo Tite, angry over early spoilers for a chapter not yet legally released for the Bleach manga and it was highly inappropriate and controversial. Given that it was not only harassment but the chapter technically hadn't gone on sale yet.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I've never seen anything as long winded (and badly written in JPN) as Jairus has done, but things conducive of "please let Cloud and Aerith have their happy ending" or "please let us save Aerith"—these aren't "do it or else", or angry, but when you have multiple saying a lot of things that are about the outcome of the story, that's not really a good look either. It's just that Jairus was terribly long winded and disrespectful, especially considering he doesn't actually speak JPN and wouldn't know how to address these types of "requests" properly.

I still don't see how that detracts from the fact that his behavior is still congruent to that of the still negative actions certain people exhibit on the platform. The same group of people angrily @ing the NA account were also essentially witch hunting for Ben Sabin, trying to find his social media accounts, who as far as they can tell doesn't have a Twitter for them to even tag. This type of behavior from Jairus isn't in another forest—it may be in a darker part in the complete unnecessary field, but it's not just because of him that I'm not surprised to see something like this happen.

Edit: Well I stand corrected on the long-winded, as there was a fan who tweeted a whole as letter essentially begging Nojima to let Aerith live this time back in 2020. No "or else" involved, but that kind of thing doesn't set a good precedent.

 

[Makoeyes987]

but things conducive of "please let Cloud and Aerith have their happy ending" or "please let us save Aerith"—these aren't "do it or else", or angry

And that's what I'm talking about. These aren't new comments, questions or requests they haven't heard before. This is common. They've heard it all before. Fans are fans, and this is typical. Ask or look at any manga-ka twitter, Instagram or Facebook and you have fans begging over certain things in the present. Hell, look at Game of Thrones.

We're not talking about that. And equivocating typical fandom shit with what Jairus did is unrealistic and ultimately diminishes what he did as a singular person. It's not the same.

but when you have multiple saying a lot of things that are about the outcome of the story, that's not really a good look either.

A lot of things aren't a "good look." Please don't lump everything together. People who beg pop stars to "have their babies" while flashing their tits at them aren't a "good look" but are we really going to pretend that hasn't been happening since The Beetles?

Fans obviously do weird shit. But how many fans actually have the balls to write a letter, demanding they commit to them as their true love or threaten them with fans outright hating their work if the story doesn't follow a specific trail of ambiguity?

These things are not the same. Just because something is a "bad look" doesn't equate to it being an egregious assault on personal privacy or integrity in their profession. Please don't broad brush like that.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Tweeting about how people should be fired or spreading lies about the development team based on misconstruing interviews and Nojima's tweets, using his tweets and likes as personal arguments in the "ship war", or sending long tweets about not wanting your favorite character to die (there was an Clerith fan who supposedly did this back in 2020)—these aren't just "bad looks", they're unacceptable behavior that sets a "way of being" on the platform within the circles of the people who do these things. All the while this being the front of which they use to attack each other. Constantly calling Jairus' actions the extreme of an already rotting tree isn't diminishing it—it's me truly saying "Hey, you see that there? Yeah keep it up, and that's where you'll be heading", because the matter of fact is that what we're deeming as toxic and negative behavior within these parts of the fandom aren't that far removed from what he did.

It isn't about being the equal, but it's about pointing out that it's the end of what otherwise has been a pattern of shitty behavior exhibited online. I'm not going to turn a blind eye to all these things suddenly because what is considered a degree worse than happened. It's time to point all that shit out and stop it altogether, that's what most people will do if they see something go too far of which they themselves were already a part of. This should encourage people to stop doing these things, not just say "we aren't him". And I'm not in the interest of cherry-picking within the negativity, because the things people say and have done to each other, either to official accounts or using what they do—get rid of it all. That's the point I'm making.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tweeting about how people should be fired or spreading lies about the development team based on misconstruing interviews and Nojima's tweets

Okay, who did that? What's the context there?

I'm not going to turn a blind eye to all these things suddenly because what is considered a degree worse than happened. It's time to point all that shit out and stop it altogether, that's what most people will do if they see something go too far of which they themselves were already a part of. This should encourage people to stop doing these things, not just say "we aren't him".

That's literally impossible. Bad behavior from fans has been a thing since before you or I were ever born. The fact it's transferred to online spaces is only the result of said fans being online. You're never going to stop it, and it will never be stopped. It's a symptom of individual personalities that are warped and obsessive. That's honestly more a goal platforms themselves have to reach for. How are fans going to police other fans' behavior when we have no authority or command over their agency? We can try to sanction or shame them but ultimately they're just other people. That's never worked.

This is the reality of the situation. I get what you're saying about "that's where you'll be heading" but I think that's sorta missing the point of what Jairus did, and trying to make this some "teachable moment" which, I guess you could say it is. But, again. I haven't seen someone directly engaging or attempting to demand an FFVII writer do something with a current FFVII project that was still in progress. Weird fans being weird is well-trodden ground that will always be a thing, no matter what. There's no fandom anywhere, during any time that has not had it's weirdos.

Hell, antis are the opposite of shippers who literally horseshoe'd themselves into weird toxic fans, in attempts to fight back against toxic shipper fans. Sorta revealing about the nature of "fandom" in general.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Okay, who did that? What's the context there?

In particular, that would be specific Cloti fans on Twitter/Tumblr, who otherwise constantly berate the localization, calling for Ben Sabin and the whole team to be fired, taking a tweet of Nojima's to be about him "throwing shade" at the localization division, and misunderstanding the localization interviews in order to further stigmatize the ENG translators—this through misunderstanding anything about how SE does their localization. As much as I'd love to say it was just one person, it is very numerous within a particular circle of numerous Cloti fans because it's spread as misinformation. Like all things, it would be "fans being fans", as in people doing this same thing when they're unhappy about anything, but what is said and done, like @ing the NA twitter or using Nojima's tweets for said things, is the start of very toxic perceptions about the development team.

That's literally impossible. Bad behavior from fans has been a thing since before you or I were ever born. The fact it's transferred to online spaces is only the result of said fans being online. You're never going to stop it, and it will never be stopped. It's a symptom of individual personalities that are warped and obsessive. That's honestly more a goal platforms themselves have to reach for. How are fans going to police other fans' behavior when we have no authority or command over their agency? We can try to sanction or shame them but ultimately they're just other people. That's never worked.

So what is it that you think I'm trying to do here, Mako? I'm not Michael Scott and am standing in a room yelling "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY" and expect all the debts to go away. I've already made my own posts even on my own Twitter of these similar sentiments, and that of calling out the bad behavior before this has happened—even specifically for Jairus as an individual. I was here during his tirade on the site and condemning his actions of even getting mad at content creators for not using Jessie in their thumbnails. It feels like you think I'm just using this as an opportunity to put all the bad apples on equal ground, as in doing the exact same thing that Jairus did, but that doesn't need to be done to recognize what he did is also a part of a persistent problem that should always be condemned and fought to change within online behavior.

Edit: And there is that example of the Clerith fan writing to Nojima on Twitter, which there is a whole thread of people @ing him about the story. Some are really just the run of the mill as you said, but if you go deeper in the rabbit hole (which is really just "sides of the war" trying to one up each other on pulling out "receipts", it's a thing. I haven't seen anything with the same approach as Jairus, but there is the point that this behavior isn't just on another planet, it's a similar pattern to the negativity exhibited already.