• There are currently leaks out on the internet for FFVII Rebirth; we have received legal notice about these being posted on the forums. Do not post any images, videos, or other media, or links to them from FFVII Rebirth or the artbook. Any leaked media or links to them will be deleted.Repeat offenders will be suspended.
    Please help us out by reporting any leaks, and do not post spoilers outside of the spoiler section.

Faith v. 3.0 (Cloti Club)

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
No matter which way they break up the next installments, I think it’s unlikely Aerith’s death and the Lifestream will happen in the same game unless that BS rumor about the rest of the story being covered in part 2 is true so I definitely like the prospect of giving both scenes room to shine
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
The concept of “meant to be” always fascinates me when it’s applied to things that aren’t. I don’t want to make this an LTD thing (if anything, my stance validates both romances as intrinsically connected) but I think the point of Cloud and Aerith is that it isn’t, that’s part of why her death is so impactful. For some, “it’s a fantasy game so not even death can separate them” but...that was the whole point, wasn’t it?

Cloud and Tifa had many things working against them yet they pulled through, while Cloud and Aerith had many things working in their favor but are ultimately kept from each other. The duality of it really surprised me as I generally find love triangles shallow and if this actually was a romance story, it would be really interesting to dive deep into how Cloud’s relationships with both girls compliment each other.

For what it’s worth, Advent Children had a pretty great premise if only the storytelling and characterization wasn’t so weak. But to know that he actually is happy with Tifa makes sense when you consider he already lost one love interest in Aerith and blames himself for that, and that guilt prevents him from fully embracing life with Tifa. He already blames himself for her almost dying at Mt.
Nibel and during Sephiroth’s rampage, of course he’s afraid of losing her too.

It’s weird to me that some people are so against that interpretation of the film when it 1. is pretty much how the creators explained it minus the more clear romantic language and 2. allows for both romances to be validated. So to reduce that story to “Cloud is emo because he wants Aerith but is stuck with Tifa” is pretty unfortunate, though I think a lot of that blame also falls on Square Enix.
 

iamhorde

Pro Adventurer
The short answer here would be that the devs have said numerous times that they aren't going to be making drastic changes to FF7's story

That initially gave me the most reassurance but then there were subsequent interviews where it seems like they refer to the Remake as the "new FF7 story" and kept teasing us about the unknown journey ahead. Sure, this could simply be a way to keep interest high and discussions going and they are succeeding. I should also stop reading and watching too many fan theories, haha.

I think the reason I’m only like 10% concerned for Tifa’s fate is that the story would have to change so much that it really does stop being a remake. Plus the amount of reverence the devs have for Aerith’s death gives me confidence that they won’t go that far.

Yea, you're right. Just wasn't sure if the devs wanted to replicate another "shocking moment" and the easiest way they could possibly do so is to flip the story around where different characters live and die. That said, it would cease to be FF7 anymore.

Slightly off topic but I do hope they get to develop Aerith and Zack's relationship more in FF7R. I didn't get to play Crisis Core but I watched the cut scenes and what they have together is quite precious. It would certainly make Aerith's death even more heartbreaking and would fit the Reunion theme really well. Aerith reuniting with Zack while true Cloud reunites with Tifa.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
it seems like they refer to the Remake as the "new FF7 story" and kept teasing us about the unknown journey ahead.
The devs, in their infinite smartassery, have placed themselves in a convenient position where they can tease the “new story” and “unknown journey” even if it ends up largely following the OG since we don’t actually know how new/familiar the next parts will be yet...crafty bastards

Slightly off topic but I do hope they get to develop Aerith and Zack's relationship more in FF7R.
I’m conflicted on this as I’m expecting a reunion with Zack to be more tragic than anything (especially if we fight him) but I think even that could make for a good opportunity to learn about their relationship especially if we get a Crisis Core-era flashback or something

Just wasn't sure if the devs wanted to replicate another "shocking moment" and the easiest way they could possibly do so is to flip the story around where different characters live and die.
I would hope having already defeated the remnants of Sephiroth through the Whispers, potentially later defeating Jenova and Sephiroth permanently, and maybe even preventing Cloud from falling into depression this time around would mean he could actually live with Tifa in peace...or they go full despair and just kill everybody in the end :monster:
 
Last edited:
Clearly Cloud and Tifa are Disney princesses

Eqz22k0VQAEiQLX


- _shillo's work
 

Edley

Pray for Sound
AKA
Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
The devs, in their infinite smartassery, have placed themselves in a convenient position where they can tease the “new story” and “unknown journey” even if it ends up largely following the OG since we don’t actually know how new/familiar the next parts will be yet...crafty bastards


I’m conflicted on this as I’m expecting a reunion with Zack to be more tragic than anything (especially if we fight him) but I think even that could make for a good opportunity to learn about their relationship especially if we get a Crisis Core-era flashback or something


I would hope having already defeated the remnants of Sephiroth through the Whispers, potentially later defeating Jenova and Sephiroth permanently, and maybe even preventing Cloud from falling into depression this time around would mean he could actually live with Tifa in peace...or they go full despair and just kill everybody in the end :monster:


This TBH. The more I think about it, I kinda expect Cloud to more explicitly and fully come under Sephiroth's control in this story (beyond the Aerith attacks). It doesn't irrevocably change the story if he fights the party before falling into the lifestream and making his comeback. Also we need to see a scene where the rest of the crew assuming Cloud and Tifa are dead when they fall into the green.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Also we need to see a scene where the rest of the crew assuming Cloud and Tifa are dead when they fall into the green.
Come to think of it, I never thought about how much time has passed while Cloud and Tifa were in the Lifestream
 

iamhorde

Pro Adventurer
The Cloti Zine is now accepting pre-orders for anyone who may be interested. The limited bundle was sold out within a day!


I’m conflicted on this as I’m expecting a reunion with Zack to be more tragic than anything (especially if we fight him) but I think even that could make for a good opportunity to learn about their relationship especially if we get a Crisis Core-era flashback or something

Seems like SE has some big plans for Zack.

 

insanehobbit

Pro Adventurer
Howdy, y'all. Not that anyone asked and not that I think I'm going to change anyone's mind, but for some unfathomable reason, I've decided to write a ~25,000 word (sadly not a typo) essay that is kind of about the LTD, but really more so an opportunity for me to be pedantic about story development and narrative design for several thousand words.

Due to its sheer length and since I'm not sure what I'm allowed to post in this FC, it's on tumblr: clicky-clicky, or maybe don't (Be forewarned! I am not pithy, and I doubt any of these insights are particularly novel. And I'm sure there are dozens of typos I did not catch.)

I really have no idea how to use tumblr, so if there's anything specific you want to discuss that may not be kosher in this thread, feel free to DM me.

ta ta for now
 

a_apple 2.0

Pro Adventurer
AKA
a_apple
Howdy, y'all. Not that anyone asked and not that I think I'm going to change anyone's mind, but for some unfathomable reason, I've decided to write a ~25,000 word (sadly not a typo) essay that is kind of about the LTD, but really more so an opportunity for me to be pedantic about story development and narrative design for several thousand words.

Due to its sheer length and since I'm not sure what I'm allowed to post in this FC, it's on tumblr: clicky-clicky, or maybe don't (Be forewarned! I am not pithy, and I doubt any of these insights are particularly novel. And I'm sure there are dozens of typos I did not catch.)

I really have no idea how to use tumblr, so if there's anything specific you want to discuss that may not be kosher in this thread, feel free to DM me.

ta ta for now
"A begrudging analysis of our favorite straight-to-DVD sequel"

This is the greatest description of AC I ever saw
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Morbid curiosity got the better of me once again so I actually read through all of that! I wouldn’t want to derail this thread with LTD stuff but I will say there’s some very interesting points that you present @insanehobbit nice write up
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I've been rereading the FC those past days, notably for @KindOfBlue because yes, I haven't forgotten about your ask what's the devs' quote saying that true Cloud shows up during the Lifestream scene - and neither me or peko can find it. It's absolutely annoying that we have so much resources for OG that are easy more or so to access, but when we want to find the resources for Remake, it's such a terrible mess. To such an extent that I've been thinking about making my own post resource -_- I guess on the good side of it, it did give me an idea for a next post here!

@insanehobbit ahah OMG, you went through the same as I did "well if I want to write the way I want to, guess I'll have to make up a tumblr" lol. I followed you. Also wanted to tell people to track your posts here because they are so great and provide such great insight about filmmaking and the intent behind it! It's absolutely fascinating.
 
Last edited:

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I haven't forgotten about your ask what's the devs' quote saying that true Cloud shows up during the Lifestream scene - and neither me or peko can find it. It's absolutely annoying that we have so much resources for OG that are easy more or so to access, but when we want to find the resources for Remake, it's such a terrible mess.
Hello again! I think I meant the Tifa resolution scene with the thing about true Cloud coming out, it’s just something I wanted to verify since I see it used in arguments often. I’ve seen more than one translation about Cloud speaking more naturally with Tifa or something like that, so I assumed that argument was based on that quote but I couldn’t find something specifically pointing to the resolution scene.

I don’t think it matters too much anyways, I feel like people kind of misconstrue the whole real/fake Cloud thing sometimes but I think the most important takeaway from that scene is that it’s the cumulation of him learning to be supportive for Tifa going back to their interactions from ch. 3 onwards. It’s a shame some might miss that little character arc because of some scenes being optional...damn affection system.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Nah don't worry, it's ok. I'm fully on the "using good translations" team, because when you use biased ones, you can't understand fully what's going on. So yeah, it does bother me that I can't find this specific quote I saw months ago. People don't seem to care, but once the false idea is ingrained in a fandom, it's very difficult to shift to the truth - and this is why the LTD still exists to this day.
 

iamhorde

Pro Adventurer
Howdy, y'all. Not that anyone asked and not that I think I'm going to change anyone's mind, but for some unfathomable reason, I've decided to write a ~25,000 word (sadly not a typo) essay that is kind of about the LTD, but really more so an opportunity for me to be pedantic about story development and narrative design for several thousand words.

Would you believe me if I said 25,000 words is too short because that was soooo good. I could keep on reading forever! To prove that I actually read the entirety of it (twice now), I think there might be a little typo in this sentence:

Tifa subtly references the Promise by mentioning that she’s “in a pitch”

I believe it should be "in a pinch"?

Thank you for writing this, it's being circulated among Cloti fan groups and enlightening so many. While you don't leave much else to say with such a comprehensive piece, I do hope to read more from you.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
So after further research, I can say quite safely that true!Cloud doesn't show up to hug Tifa. Nope. This is the only source I've seen for this claim:


And honestly, I don't remember what I saw but it was definitely *not this*. But everyone claimed it, so I disregarded the source, thinking that if everyone claimed it, it must be true. Seeing that this seems to be the only source, I'm noping all the way away from it, and I think we should reassess the hug as being SOLDIER!Cloud all along - which once again is fine by me, since it's not the hot topic of this hug, but rather how this is what Cloud wanted since ch12 and how this is an emotional arc that ties both Cloud and Tifa together. Let's not forget that whatever SOLDIER!Cloud gets through isn't forgotten by true!Cloud. SOLDIER!Cloud still has parts of him - it's a mix between him and how he imagine a hero, Zack especially, AND also manipulation by JENOVA.

If any of you have a better source than this half-arsed tweet, you're welcome to share it. For reference, @odekopeko searched through her Ultimania and couldn't find the quote either.

Edit: to me, it looks like two different quotes were conflated:

—In particular, during the nighttime flower field scene in Chapter 14, Aerith tells Cloud “You can’t fall in love with me. Even if you do, it’s not real.” For those who are familiar with the original story, this line carries a lot of meaning.

Nojima: To be honest, some staff actually told me that this line made it seem like Aerith was looking down on Cloud, so it got rejected a few times. If you know Aerith’s fate, then this line would really pull at your heart strings, but if you did not know what happens to Aerith, then you might interpret the scene in a completely different way. I thought the gap between the two interpretations was very interesting. On another note, in Tifa’s scene in the flower field, I wanted Cloud to not look cool in this scene. Even though Cloud and Tifa are close in age, he has a 5 year blank slate, and he doesn’t have enough life experience to consider himself an adult. Even though most of the characters are around 20 years old, there’s one guy, Cloud, who has the mentality of a 16 year old, and that person tries to be like an adult. I really wanted to write that into the story. After the Sector 7 plate fell, Barret comforted Tifa with the temperament of an adult, and Cloud saw that and wanted to do the same for her [in the flower scene], but it didn’t go as planned. I wanted to try writing him as being awkward.

Nomura: On that same note, when recording Cloud’s voice, we had his voice actor perform his lines slightly differently depending on who he was talking to. For example, when Cloud speaks with Aerith, he stands up and tries to act cool, with Tifa he loosens up a bit, with Jessie he sounds confused. When Cloud speaks with Aerith, he’s too self-conscious and gives weird replies.

You can find the whole interview here - and while I don't think that "loosens up a bit" is the right translation (it's definitely being more relaxed, more like himself as expressed in the Tifa's quote about her own theme), this is definitely where things did telescoped.

Edit: and I have written extensively about this, and Cloud's mind, and cloti.
 
Last edited:

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
It looks like it's this part that's being translated differently: 素が出る.

I got this post when searching for the phrase -- https://finalheaven.co/post/616905920350453760/hi-i-have-a-question-about-clouds-true-self. They gave a link to an external translator who said it meant to act without lying. So, it sounds like some have taken it to mean that he become more like his true self when he's with Tifa.

Edit: Just wanted to add.. I also did sort of vaguely recall something about the hug where Cloud's true self emerged briefly. But, like Eerie, I can't remember where it was that I saw it.
 
Last edited:

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yeah I know it was translated in good faith, however it's more that "a bit of his true personality" shows up, which means Cloud without his fake persona and without Jenova influence. It's because of Tifa's effect on him - as noted with her theme, she has an envelopping kindness towards him, which makes him feel relaxed.

His true self, the real Cloud with all his memories and no identity troubles is hidden deep inside still. And I think it's important, with Cloud's identity troubles, that we realise that this is not the Cloud from after the Lifestream scene that shows up, but rather that t his is this mix of still fucked up Cloud who is still an awkward 16 years old trying so hard to console Tifa. Seriously it makes Cloud's personality so much more interesting. To me, Cloud's personality has changed a lot compared to the OG. As I stated in my tumblr post, he's no more two very distinct personalities, it's rather a mix now and Tifa allows us to see this side of Cloud. Again, my guess is because they don't want players to think that the fake Cloud from the OG is the real Cloud, since we're at least 2 games away from the Lifestream scene.
 

shersita007

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Hello.

About people saying real Cloud hugged Tifa in her resolution, and others having doubts of why ppl say that if nowhere it is stated.

The context comes from the scene itself, Cloud appears in his Soldier fake mode to Tifa, pretending to be cool even saying, he is a light sleeper cause 'is a Soldier thing' and put a smug face all proud while saying this, Tifa makes a small sarcastic laugh after hearing this, like 'yeah right' she knows something is off with Cloud,but she still cannot point out what it is, she even recalls the flower to him 'you giving flowers? I knew something is wrong', she approach Cloud,and we see how Cloud is struggling with himself wanting to console her, but also wanting to keep up his cool fachade in front of her, so he hesitated on what to do while Tifa is crying on his chest, you see Cloud face struggling, his face goes from 'I'm a though guy, I can handle this' to glassy eyes almost crying too and he finally breaks down too, and finally proceeds to hug Tifa. This drastic change on him after he was struggling with himself, plus Nojima saying 'I didn't want Cloud to play cool in that scene' (being playing cool Cloud fake mode) plus official material saying Cloud 'trueself' emerges briefly with Tifa, is why Clotis conclude 'real Cloud hugged Tifa'.

Sorry for the long post,the conclusión comes from the scene itself more than looking for a material confirming it.
 
Last edited:

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I'm gonna say it again, but no. Cloud playing it cool but finally giving in for Tifa is literally written in Remake. At the beginning, in chapter 3, he tries to play the cool SOLDIER with her, but she gets scared by his eyes - however she still see his kindness, which is what attracts her, ultimately. Cloud quickly becomes very puppy-like around her, he listens to her, she's the one that matters and he makes sure that is known.

This interpretation of this scene was NEVER a theory before this translation came around. I was here, I was in reddit, I was in tumblr, in LTD thread, I should know. It is this specific translation that coloured our glasses and made us interprete the scene that specific way. Because story-wise, Cloud is simply... Not here the way he should. The only moment we see him is when he talks to himself, after falling in the church. This is why I say that a good translation MATTERS.
 

shersita007

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I'm gonna say it again, but no. Cloud playing it cool but finally giving in for Tifa is literally written in Remake. At the beginning, in chapter 3, he tries to play the cool SOLDIER with her, but she gets scared by his eyes - however she still see his kindness, which is what attracts her, ultimately. Cloud quickly becomes very puppy-like around her, he listens to her, she's the one that matters and he makes sure that is known.

This interpretation of this scene was NEVER a theory before this translation came around. I was here, I was in reddit, I was in tumblr, in LTD thread, I should know. It is this specific translation that coloured our glasses and made us interprete the scene that specific way. Because story-wise, Cloud is simply... Not here the way he should. The only moment we see him is when he talks to himself, after falling in the church. This is why I say that a good translation MATTERS.

Cloud trying to play cool, but finally giving in with Tifa, isn't exactly as Cloud trueself emerging with her?.

Cloud shows up in Tifa resolution trying to play cool in his fake Soldier mode, but Tifa catch it again, and even points on it before the hug.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
No, it's his true *personality* showing up. True Cloud is the full package (with his feelings he understands perfectly and his memories) we won't get before the Lifestream scene, and I wish people would stop playing with words with him, because it actually *diminishes* the relationship he's building with Tifa and every other character pre-Lifestream scene. If you want to pretend that only true Cloud matters, it means that all the bonds he's created with Avalanche, Aerith, various NPC don't count. But they do. They're precious to him. Cloud has identity issues and is manipulated by Jenova, for sure, but it's still CLOUD. They're not separate entities as it was the case in the OG - SOLDIER Cloud in one side, true Cloud on the other. They mixed both, so we could have a better character, one that cares, and a true explanation of who SOLDIER Cloud is/was in the OG, because it was perhaps one of the most difficult things to explain, especially since both personalities were so far apart.
 
Top Bottom