SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 17 Spoiler Discussion
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Keveh Kins
Pun Enthusiast
Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
I still think his level of skill is a little Gary Stu ish. He’s always had looks, money, immense intelligence, competency, but now can also apparently provide a significant challenge to a SOLDIER In battle? Rufus is tough. He should not be a wimp. But I just find it weird for him to be stronger than Reno or Rude. No weaknesses, immune to statuses, high HP, counters everything, etc. I think this just boils down to a difference in opinion.
Probably because America historically worshipped the Nouveau Rich and hated the concept of being born into money. It seems to have hung on in media but not as much as in our overall culture, but that’s probably because left wing ideology is overrepresented in Hollywood compared to the general pop, which has been largely washed over by right wing propaganda. In Japan, being from a rich family seems to have a greater association with toughness, responsibility, and leadership.
Probably because America historically worshipped the Nouveau Rich and hated the concept of being born into money. It seems to have hung on in media but not as much as in our overall culture, but that’s probably because left wing ideology is overrepresented in Hollywood compared to the general pop, which has been largely washed over by right wing propaganda. In Japan, being from a rich family seems to have a greater association with toughness, responsibility, and leadership.
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Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
He did fight Cloud in the original too, though it's safe to assume you know that. That fight wasn't half the challenge of the remake one though. This is perhaps a case of putting exciting gameplay over story cohesion, he is the fourth to last boss, and the last standard human you fight.
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Rydeen
In-KWEH-dible
No, I'm not saying that he shouldn't be able to hold his own in a fight - his hands on style and courage is an inextricable part of his character. I just felt that he shouldn't have been so difficult, especially when the preceding "Jenova" fight was quite easy. Imho it's weird to have Rufus excel in literally everything now.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
That's fair enough. The Jenova fight is strangely easy in comparison. Maybe if Rufus wasn't so good at blocking and countering it wouldn't be as weird.
I think it's sort of interesting how having Rufus so agile here retroactively makes his crippling in advent children much more apparent. He can't do all his sick tricks anymore.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Not if it's properly designed.
It's possible to keep fighting styles in character and sensible without compromising on difficulty or story. If you've played Metal Gear Rising, it's extremely obvious that Sam is a more skilled fighter than the final boss. But the final boss is a much more difficult fight, because the final boss plays to their strengths, which is in strength and durability, not being better than the lead in a sword fight.
Now, we know Rufus is not someone who would try a monster form or a giant robot. But he's also not stupid.
And in this setting, trying to take on someone Mako enhanced without assistance for no reason is just stupid.
What a SOLDIER is in the story is an inhumanly good fighter. Cloud is superhuman and Rufus is not,
The way Rufus fights doesn't make sense in this setting, there is no way he should be capable of being fast enough to counter someone Mako enhanced in close quarters.
You solve all these problems by having Rufus shooting from behind an energy shield that Cloud has to break, at which point Rufus withdraws.
That's what they do in the OG, Dark Nation immediately puts Rufus behind a Barrier as soon as the fight starts, which Cloud has no way to remove at that point in the game. It adds a little bit more plausibility to it (for me at least).
In this fight, he's somehow making dodges and counters at close quarters instead, which ends up making both characters look bad. Rufus for being stupid enough to try it and Cloud for not being able to handily defeat someone at such a disadvantage.
It's possible to keep fighting styles in character and sensible without compromising on difficulty or story. If you've played Metal Gear Rising, it's extremely obvious that Sam is a more skilled fighter than the final boss. But the final boss is a much more difficult fight, because the final boss plays to their strengths, which is in strength and durability, not being better than the lead in a sword fight.
Now, we know Rufus is not someone who would try a monster form or a giant robot. But he's also not stupid.
And in this setting, trying to take on someone Mako enhanced without assistance for no reason is just stupid.
What a SOLDIER is in the story is an inhumanly good fighter. Cloud is superhuman and Rufus is not,
and later that day Cloud is trading strikes with Sephiroth
You solve all these problems by having Rufus shooting from behind an energy shield that Cloud has to break, at which point Rufus withdraws.
That's what they do in the OG, Dark Nation immediately puts Rufus behind a Barrier as soon as the fight starts, which Cloud has no way to remove at that point in the game. It adds a little bit more plausibility to it (for me at least).
In this fight, he's somehow making dodges and counters at close quarters instead, which ends up making both characters look bad. Rufus for being stupid enough to try it and Cloud for not being able to handily defeat someone at such a disadvantage.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Just as a note, the prevailing theory seems to be that due to the ending taking place in a "singularity" Cloud (and everyone, I guess) is drawing on skills he doesn't necessarily have yet at this point in the Remake.
Not speaking to your wider point really, Just that I don't think we're supposed to expect Cloud to keep doing the shit he's doing against Sephiroth in the ending once part 2 starts
Not speaking to your wider point really, Just that I don't think we're supposed to expect Cloud to keep doing the shit he's doing against Sephiroth in the ending once part 2 starts
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
He's super-powered because he's the descendant of an alien from another planet.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Rufus is like Gohan, a mixed breed of Human and alien-Human. This means he has much more latent potential than his ancestors, and is able to tap into it when under stress. When Tseng's decapitated head gets crushed by Sephiroth after giving a moving speech, Rufus will finally achieve "SUPER SHINRA" and become even blonde-er, making him the most powerful man alive. He'll crush meteor with his own two hands!
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Limits exist to be broken.
Ironically, the only reason for your stated inability to fathom how Rufus is able to fight so well, are the self projected limits you've placed on him that does not comport with anything said or implied anywhere.
That's a limit you gotta break. He's not weak, and never was he demonstrated as such. Sure, he's no SOLDIER but neither is Rude and he's able to send shockwaves through the earth, physically toss a grown man with ease, jump from a helicopter without a parachute, and perform feats that are merely the result of pushing the human body to it's limits.
Nevermind the rest of Cloud's entourage who are not SOLDIERs yet are able to blast beams of energy, jump several feat to kick away falling debris mid-air, and just subsequently pull actions that could easily earn them a spot in the Avengers if Nick Fury were recruiting for interdimensional talent.
SOLDIERs don't have a monopoly on superhuman abilities.
...I'm sure you say that in jest but Al-Bhed were known masters of using firearms, able to use gil as weaponry, and seemingly able to mix items mid-combat for various unique and powerful effects. I mean, it's apparent Rufus has a special set of skills that allow him to hold his own in combat. Where they come from... Is anybody's guess.
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Shademp
420
Well this confirms why the Whispers were circling Shinra HQ like mad. They knew Rufus Shinra is the most powerful entity of the FFVII world, ergo why the Whispers focused their attention on Rufus Shinra's location. He, if anyone, could break the veil of destiny and shape fate to his will. Especially so when Rufus enters the Super Shinra God Super Shinra state.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Ody I'm still laughing at that a minute after reading it.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Mako, I didn't invent the idea that Mako enhanced people are generally tougher/stronger etc. out of nowhere. There's a whole lot of canon behind that.
Sasseli
~*:Newbie:*~
I think the Rufus fight is fun. Frustrating, but ultimately fun. I don't care how he's so strong and agile, I like it and that's enough for me to justify it. It's like the best part about real-time action combat. I wonder how it'll be in hard mode.
Oh, now I've read the hard mode spoiler. Well, not that I didn't suspect though.
Oh, now I've read the hard mode spoiler. Well, not that I didn't suspect though.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
It would be, but in the OG Dark Nation is basically irrelevant in that fight 
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
It would be, but in the OG Dark Nation is basically irrelevant in that fight
The reason Rufus presents a challenge at all is because his dog is a buff caster.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Dark Nation is a good girl.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I actually find it quite endearing that he would put his guard hound on his coins. I wonder if Dark Nation's barking is the ring tone on his mobile? This is a man who respects animals and their goodness.