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FFVII REMAKE CONFIRMED

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
The explosions hadn't reached the platform yet, they were still way above it and only just beginning. I just played through that segment on the PS4. He could have run to get her during the time when it's zooming out on the pillar and you can still control him and still gotten back in time to escape.
 
I wonder if people would continue to fawn over him if it turns out he's the one that kills Jessie (shooting her from the chopper while she's trying to disarm the bomb, perhaps)? Hypothetical question, of course, since the game's not out yet and I don't know how much of the details of what happens were in the leaks. And please, no spoiling, directly or indirectly. I haven't seen them and I have no idea how it happens. All I know is what some guy on the GameFAQs boards was saying about a certain screenshot supposedly at the end of the leak which he didn't even bother to put in a spoiler tag. I haven't seen it, he just said what was supposedly in it. I don't know if it was really there or if he was just making it up or exaggerating because he was arguing with me a bit and trying to use that as some kind of counterpoint.
I'm afraid we still would. I mean I still like Tseng, and he punched Aerith in the face. I'm pretty sure we're all going to import our preferences and favourites into the Remake. I'm not sure 'fawn over' is the right word, though. It implies a lack of discrimination. None of us would be surprised if Reno shot Jessie; we know the Turks are 'the bad guys'. That's what makes getting inside their heads so interesting. If they were just mindless villains they'd be boring, but all of them have redeeming qualities. Reno holds off on attacking Avalanche at several strategic moments. Rude has a crush on Tifa. Tseng knows Aerith better than anyone; has he been her jailer all these years, or has he actually been her protector?
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
Yet in spite of those qualities, they still followed through with their terrible acts instead of refusing to do them. I guess I just find it hard sometimes to understand why people like characters who do such things. It just seems kind of like approving of what they do.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
If one had to morally approve of all the characters they like, there would be very few people left to like in this game. :mon:

Me, I look at it this way: it's not always about liking characters as people. It's not like I have to grab a coffee with them and be their friend. It's about what I personally find interesting about them, the kind of thoughts they evoke, the different perspectives they bring to the table that I hadn't considered before.

The Turks are bad people, but they're not cackling evil villains. They're not sociopaths, they can be reasoned with. They're loyal, but they're not stupid and will still put their own safety above their orders. They're people with feelings and faults, but they don't spill blood just because they can. They're funny, scary, and memorable. They do what they're told (mostly), but how much they enjoy every single bad thing that they do is up to debate: maybe they hate it, or maybe they enjoy the power they have over people's lives; it's probably a combination of both, depending on how much they like a given order. I'd say we know for a fact that Tseng cared about Aeris, yet in the end he still brought her to Shinra – to Hojo. All of this, and the contrast between what they do and how they might really feel about it are only some of the reasons many people find them alluring and worth exploring. I'd say that's plenty.
 

Pizzachu

Pro Adventurer
I think it's worth mentioning that, from what I've seen, people usually don't judge fictional characters like they would with real people. Even though that sounds obvious, I think that is why characters can be morally questionable and have the audience still like them.

There are certain characters that I like in fantasy land, but I would despise them if they were real people. :monster:
 

Odysseus

Pro Adventurer
Reno being personally responsible for detonating the support pillar is the biggest thing that makes it hard for me to like the Turks. Thousands of people died because of him, and I have a hard time forgetting about it. It's just such an egregiously horrible act that nothing else the Turks do even compared to. I just find it so strange that they had him do that since they clearly want people to like him, and not just in a "love to hate" sort of way.

At least Avalanche seems to feel remorse for their terrorist actions, Jessie in particular feeling like she deserves to die for her actions with making the bomb that blew reactor 1. I still ponder on all the terrible things our main characters are responsible for, but at least they're made to struggle with it themselves. I feel like the Turks were just given a free pass, especially in the compilation. I dunno.
 

Legend

Rookie Adventurer
Yet in spite of those qualities, they still followed through with their terrible acts instead of refusing to do them. I guess I just find it hard sometimes to understand why people like characters who do such things. It just seems kind of like approving of what they do.
AVALANCHE at the start of the game, specifically Barret, is much worse than the Turks in my opinion. The Turks only do certain things because it's their job, not because they want to do it. AVALANCHE chooses to commit terrorism, fully aware that their actions lead to the deaths of innocent people.
 
If they were to change anything about the Turks, my guess is they might take away from Reno the responsibility of pressing the red button. If we take that action as the defining one for his character, then everything else about his characterisation in the game and Compilation seems a bit off. And since the Turks are so super-popular, they really might not want to saddle the most popular Turk with the guilt for a major war crime.
 

Odysseus

Pro Adventurer
You see, I'm kinda conflicted on that. On the one hand, that would probably take away Reno's stigma and allow myself and people who share my opinion to enjoy his other scenes more, but on the other hand I don't want Square to dumb him down just because he's popular. I'm already annoyed to no end that Before Crisis went and galvanized the Turks as paragons of justice. Let the story have Teeth, I say.
 
I agree. Getting the Turks right is a real challenge, because they have to be bad yet appealing, competent (and therefore a real threat to our heroes) yet also comic relief. I thought the OG did a really good job there: OG Reno will drop the plate if he's on the clock, but he won't stir a step in Shinra's interests if he's on holiday. He will, however, stir himself to help one of his own, and will even team up with Shinra's enemies to do it. The Turks extreme loyalty to one another is probably their most attractive feature. They are far more loyal to each other than Avalanche are. Avalanche stick together because they have a shared goal; the Turks stick together because they're a crime family.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
AVALANCHE at the start of the game, specifically Barret, is much worse than the Turks in my opinion. The Turks only do certain things because it's their job, not because they want to do it. AVALANCHE chooses to commit terrorism, fully aware that their actions lead to the deaths of innocent people.
No, AVALANCHE didn't set out with the goal of killing people, Legend. The blast was larger than they expected, as Jessie points out. It's possible they might have only intended to take out the reactor but nothing else, something much more limited in scope and without casualties, but it ended up being more damaging than they intended. You don't need to ignore basic facts just to glorify your favorite characters and dump on everyone else. Oh, and AVALANCHE set out to atone for their actions long before the Turks ever even thought to. They were even willing to (and in some cases did) die to make up for their mistakes. The Turks have never faced nor sought out any consequences for dropping the plate.

And as far as the trio in the remake and how they've been practically ignored outside the trailers, it just concerns me because I don't know if that's a reflection of what'll happen in the game, if SE's pulling a bait-and-switch on us by showing us all this stuff about them in the trailers but in the actual game there's hardly any time or interaction with any of them and what was in the trailers was just about all there is. I'm hoping that's not true, but them not getting much attention outside the trailers doesn't help ease those concerns much. SE specifically said they wanted to explore and develop them, but outside the trailers, it's almost as though they don't exist. I just think SE's promotional efforts should reflect their stated words, is all.

And also, I'm hoping that, unlike in the original, the AVALANCHE trio won't be forgotten after they're gone and it won't be as if they never existed. I don't want to have to wait until Cosmo Canyon, possibly Part 3, before they're ever even mentioned again. There could be ways for them to naturally come up in conversation, flashbacks in Part 2 and beyond to allow them a limited presence in those games. Maybe even a sidequest involving making a memorial for them sometime in Part 1 after the plate collapse. In the original game, it was basically just one scene in the aftermath of the collapse and then they were almost never mentioned again. But grief and loss don't work like that, and they don't just disappear. We should be able to see Cloud, Tifa, and Barret struggling with it and trying to deal with it, each in their own way.
 
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Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
AVALANCHE at the start of the game, specifically Barret, is much worse than the Turks in my opinion. The Turks only do certain things because it's their job, not because they want to do it. AVALANCHE chooses to commit terrorism, fully aware that their actions lead to the deaths of innocent people.
The threat that AVALANCHE is addressing by these actions isn't imagined. The continued use of that Mako Reactor will lead to death of all life on the planet innocent or otherwise. The Turks choose to kill many thousands of people for their job, they had a choice. They decided they wanted to keep doing this job.
 

Erotic Materia

It MUST be a thing
You don't need to ignore basic facts just to glorify your favorite characters and dump on everyone else.
Debating/taking an opposing stance "dumping on everyone else". He's talking out his side, meanwhile you're attacking him personally.
 
You don't need to ignore basic facts just to glorify your favorite characters and dump on everyone else.
The irony here is utterly hilarious.

Also, your heroes did not die to atone for their mistakes. They just died fighting Shinra at the tower. Jessie wonders if dying is their punishment for what they've done, but it's not like they just fought at the tower because they felt guilty.

Jairus said:
We should be able to see Cloud, Tifa, and Barret struggling with it and trying to deal with it, each in their own way.
In the original, Barret and Tifa sure. Cloud barely knew them. This seems to be different in the remake. But Cloud not being especially broken up about it - especially while still in his SOLDIER persona - isn't a failing of the original. He knew them for like 3 days.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
The threat that AVALANCHE is addressing by these actions isn't imagined. The continued use of that Mako Reactor will lead to death of all life on the planet innocent or otherwise. The Turks choose to kill many thousands of people for their job, they had a choice. They decided they wanted to keep doing this job.
But by Barret's own admission, his underlying intentions were far from noble and weren't about the planet at all. He needed to do something with all the rage he felt. Unfortunately, he chose the wrong way and convinced everyone, including himself, that it was for a good cause. He then used said good cause to justify any "collateral damage" that he must have accounted for when he chose to become a terrorist and involve other people. As Barret himself would say, he has a debt to Midgar and its people he'll never be able to repair. The fact that he realizes all this and tries to redeem himself is certainly a testament to his personal growth, but it can't undo what he did or the original reasons why he did it.

While I agree that dropping the plate was worse and it's true that the Turks had a choice (I guess? Not sure how easy it would be to just "retire" from being a Turk), at least they didn't try to cover their bad deeds with empty, greater good speeches.

Just to clarify: Barret is one of my favorite characters from… anything, really.
 
I'm pretty sure we're going to spend more time with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie in the new game, because I don't know how Remark Part One is going to fill up 60 hours of game play otherwise. I'm sure we'll also be seeing more of the Turks. I agree with Force about Cloud not having much time in the OG to get attached to people; also, it's not in keeping with his (fake, adopted) persona to get attached to anyone. If Barret had been killed in the attack on Sector 7 one wouldn't have expected Cloud to cry about it, so it's hardly surprising he's fairly indifferent to the deaths of Biggs, Jessie and Wedge.

Jairus, I respect that you want BJW to play a much bigger role in the whole game, and if they do, I'll be fine with that, but you surely understand that not everybody is as interested in them as you are. I totally understand that not everybody cares about much as I do about Rufus and the Turks. I mean, some fans even see them as - gasp! - the bad guys.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
But by Barret's own admission, his underlying intentions were far from noble and weren't about the planet at all. He needed to do something with all the rage he felt. Unfortunately, he chose the wrong way and convinced everyone, including himself, that it was for a good cause. He then used said good cause to justify any "collateral damage" that he must have accounted for when he chose to become a terrorist and involve other people. As Barret himself would say, he has a debt to Midgar and its people he'll never be able to repair. The fact that he realizes all this and tries to redeem himself is certainly a testament to his personal growth, but it can't undo what he did or the original reasons why he did it.

While I agree that dropping the plate was worse and it's true that the Turks had a choice (I guess? Not sure how easy it would be to just "retire" from being a Turk), at least they didn't try to cover their bad deeds with empty, greater good speeches.

Just to clarify: Barret is one of my favorite characters from… anything, really.
Having your own motivations and stonecold not believing what AVALANCHE was telling him about the nature of Mako energy when he joined are very different things. Cloud before the final battle tells the group he still has very personal motivations for wanting Sephiroth dead. He does however KNOW by that point that not killing Sephiroth means end of life for everyone that isn't Sephiroth. And they certainly do have a choice, Hojo choose to quit, the Turks came to remove his choice about whether to continue to be a part of this massmurdering company but Hojo still had the courage to try to quit. (I'm not arguing that Hojo did it for any moral reasons, but it still reflects on the Turks that they can't bring themselves to do the same).
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
The irony here is utterly hilarious.

Also, your heroes did not die to atone for their mistakes. They just died fighting Shinra at the tower. Jessie wonders if dying is their punishment for what they've done, but it's not like they just fought at the tower because they felt guilty.



In the original, Barret and Tifa sure. Cloud barely knew them. This seems to be different in the remake. But Cloud not being especially broken up about it - especially while still in his SOLDIER persona - isn't a failing of the original. He knew them for like 3 days.
Actually, according to the timeline, he'd been around the gang for about a month or so prior to the start of the game. And I was talking about the remake, he's sure to be more affected by it there than in the original if he personally gets to spend any substantial amount of time with them, and it would be a way to show cracks in that mercenary facade of his. And if they didn't feel at least some regret about what happened, they wouldn't have fought at the tower in the first place. Just because something isn't outright stated doesn't mean it isn't there. Some things can be inferred. They were willing to risk their lives to save Sector 7, so don't dismiss that.

I'm sorry about the comment I made earlier to Legend, I shouldn't have said that.

And Lic, you forget that Cloud did and could show concern for the trio at the pillar when you talk to them even in the original. So he's not uncaring. If he was, he wouldn't have run over to check on Wedge when he fell. He wouldn't have even gone to the pillar in the first place. I never expected him to cry over them, but he could have at least said something to Barret and Tifa at some point. I was just saying that in the remake after they're gone, I don't want them to be forgotten like they never existed, never so much as mentioned again for the entire series, that's all.
 
Actually, according to the timeline, he'd been around the gang for about a month or so prior to the start of the game.
And yet they don't know his name or are even clear on his occupation at the start of the mission.

Jairus said:
And Lic, you forget that Cloud did and could show concern for the trio at the pillar when you talk to them even in the original. So he's not uncaring. If he was, he wouldn't have run over to check on Wedge when he fell. He wouldn't have even gone to the pillar in the first place.
Being uncaring about someone in pain right in front of you and being broken up about their death later isn't really the same thing. But also, he can also show no concern for them at all.

And why do you think they wouldn't have fought at the pillar if they weren't remorseful? Shinra's trying to destroy where they live, their home. Why would they need any other motivation to fight? Barret (who is their leader) is fighting, and he didn't feel remorseful yet.
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
And yet they don't know his name or are even clear on his occupation at the start of the mission.
So? That doesn't mean that he didn't know who they were. If not by name, at least in general.

Being uncaring about someone in pain right in front of you and being broken up about their death later isn't really the same thing. But also, he can also show no concern for them at all.
Except that when you first get there, there's no way for him to not race over to Wedge and call out to him after he falls or not have him declare that he's going up. There's some show of caring there that can't be avoided. In the original, even if he personally didn't feel as broken up as the others, he still could have said something to them at some point expressing regret at what happened, that he didn't know them well but that he still wished things had turned out differently. He wouldn't have had to be the one to bring it up, either. Barret or Tifa could have done that, and then Cloud could have said something to that effect or the player could have been given the option on how to respond.

And why do you think they wouldn't have fought at the pillar if they weren't remorseful? Shinra's trying to destroy where they live, their home. Why would they need any other motivation to fight? Barret (who is their leader) is fighting, and he didn't feel remorseful yet.
Why can there ever be only one motivation for fighting? It's certainly possible that both could have motivated them, or at least the trio since Barret isn't to that point yet. But by Jessie's words, the others are. They're at least aware of what they've done, and by the remorse she shows, it's not a stretch to believe that part of the trio's motivation for fighting in the pillar could have been to atone for what they did as well as protect their home. One reason does not cancel out the other.
 
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