FFVII REMAKE CONFIRMED

[ForceStealer]

I'm just avoiding stuff from the leaks. I'm gathering that he's referring to the bomb timer starting when Guard Scorpion's laser knocks some debris on it from trailer. But I guess there's more to it.

 

[oty]

If that's true that would change culpabilities (...sort of, he did still set a bomb, lol), but I'm not sure I'm understanding. If that's what happens how are you still in control of your timer to escape? Why wouldn't they just blow it up with you inside? Are you sure it isn't just that Shinra knows and allows it to proceed?

Spoiler: from the demo leak

It was confirmed in the leaked demo ------------------------------ (spaces to be sure lol) Cloud chooses a time, Scorpion comes and his ray sets up the bomb. But the bomb does little damage, and then President Shinra orders for pretty much a self destruct, which gives the big explosion we remember, that kills people.

Thing is, the trio may not have gotten attention because they might still be just a minor part of the Remake ?

They can still be expanded, as SE said, but not as much as we tought, or want. I dont want that, because the concept of their death being an important moment for the gang (Barret, Tifa and even Cloud, as some sort of tipping moment that starts to break up his fake personality) is very appealing. It's a level of depth that the original didnt reference as much.

The Turks are also a touchy subject. In the original they were deadly, but funny multiple times. I dont exactly dislike what BC did to them, I think it gave them a very interesting perspective to them. But it was kind of different from what we saw in the original, so it gets tricky. For what we have seen, they look pretty deadly-esque, but it's been what? 30 seconds of footage. I'm actually very interested to see how they will be portrayed. Taking some of the culpability from the main cast makes sense (even if it's not a good choice), so it's intriguing to think how that's going to be for, specially for this part, the antagonists.

 

[Erotic Materia]

Jesus, has everyone played BC? I was under the impression that it was only in Japan, in Japanese, and on Japanese phones.

 

[ForceStealer]

Jesus, has everyone played BC? I was under the impression that it was only in Japan, in Japanese, and on Japanese phones.

You are correct. No one's played it. Super dorks here have read what happens in it.
There is that RPGMaker version of it out there now I think, though.

 

[oty]

Nope, never played it haha

But I try to stay pretty up close to what happened in that game, so I've often seen playthroughs or just searched for things myself.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

And super-SUPER-dorks write 99 chapters of fanfic based on it.

 

[Roger]

In fairness, though, going by the Compilation, the Turks had only just survived execution by the skin of their teeth hours before the Mako Reactor 1 bombing mission. Anyone attempting to leave during the time period when the game started would have probably meant execution for the whole group.

At any rate, the Compilation acknowledged Reno's guilt a little bit, so that has to be taken into account in any analysis of him.

Well, unless just looking at the original.

I have just been looking at the original, yeah.

If we look at the Compilation, it's perfectly clear that if the Turks left, Shinra would never be able to find them. Shinra never found Lazard, Veldt, the other dozen Turks that already left, they only managed to get a hold of Hollander because the man was actively making war of Shinra, when he wasn't actively doing anything, he was fine for years on end. The resources that took Wutai, Hollander, Genesis and the original AVALANCHE down are no longer available to the Shinra of FFVII. If someone quit that they didn't want to, the best hope of tracking them down is the Turks, like they did, when Hojo quit, if the Turks themselves left, Shinra would be pretty screwed. The Turks would get plenty of help going into hiding from all their other Turks friends already in hiding.

Taking the original by itself, one could claim that if Shinra did manage to track their investigative department down, without an investigative department to do this for them, they'd have to submit to the superior force of SOLDIERs still under Shinras command. In the Compilation that's just not a plausible explanation. Unless Reno knows about Deepground and Weiss and Nero's appearance at the end of CC demonstrated a willingness from Shinra Inc. to start actually using them.

 

[Jairus]

Lic's post covered this I think.

Which I already responded to. See above.

Are these the only three people in Sector 7 all of a sudden? He could have had contact with all sorts of people other than these three. But, also that he was still a little ~bzzt~ at the time, sure he could've been a hermit too, I dunno. But I don't think Biggs makes a habit of asking him his name every time he sees him.

No, but they're among the only ones whose names we know and play a part in the story. I don't think Biggs would do that either, and it's those kinds of smart comments of yours that set me off. Please don't make them. And as far as Biggs goes, he still could've seen Cloud around but not gotten to talk to him. Same with Jessie and Wedge. Though Biggs was the only one who tried to introduce himself, so Cloud might've learned the others' names before that but just not thought much of it.

That's not how citations work. But sure it's possible, I don't know what that has to do with her speaking for Biggs and Wedge about their levels of remorse, though.

I was just trying to say that it might have been a representative thing about how Biggs and Wedge felt, not that Jessie was actually speaking for them, but storywise that what she said could possibly be seen as representative of how Biggs and Wedge felt as well given the friendship between the three of them and the tone of the scene.

That's debate, bruh. People are gonna disagree with you. Deal with it.

I understand that. It's how they disagree that's the issue.

No, that's highly unlikely. I'm sure he interacted with a number of people... that aren't named, Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, or Barret.

We don't know that for sure, though. I just explained this to Force higher up in this post.

It quite literally is entirely headcanon. Twilight already perfectly covered that.

No, it's not. It's drawing conclusions from observations of the scene and providing possibilities that could fit into it.

Headcanon being called headcanon isn't an act of dismissal. What is possible is not necessarily what is true. You seem to take offense to people explaining (very thoroughly, by the way, and with much better clarity than anything my nearly illiterate ass could muster) why it is they don't think your particular flavor of headcanon is likely, and then you rail against them for being dismissive.

Because they largely won't acknowledge its possibility in spite of their disagreement, and in many cases can't seem to resist being snarky about it. What's possible isn't necessarily untrue, either.

There's nothing to support the wiki entry, though, at least as far as I've seen. From what do you base this argument? Yes, I know it's possible. But is it real, or just wishful thinking?

There's nothing to refute it, either. So the possibility stands, and that's all I'm saying. That it's possible.

 

[ForceStealer]

And super-SUPER-dorks write 99 chapters of fanfic based on it.

Because that's roughly how many it takes to make it not be bad?

So the possibility stands, and that's all I'm saying. That it's possible.

That is not all you're saying though, and that's the problem. You're saying that it's possible, and that everyone had best agree with you that's damn near certain, or else they're dismissing your innocent musings out of hand.
You didn't say it's possible that Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie fought and died on the pillar to atone for their sins. You said that that is why they did so, when nothing supports that claim. You can come up with things that might make that be the case, but when other people come up with things that suggest it might not be, that does not count as them dismissing your wishes out of hand. It's just disagreeing.

And as far as Biggs goes, he still could've seen Cloud around but not gotten to talk to him. Same with Jessie and Wedge. Though Biggs was the only one who tried to introduce himself, so Cloud might've learned the others' names before that but just not thought much of it.

That would still mean Cloud only knew them for about three days. He didn't know them before that and nothing suggests that he did. The timeline says he was in a geographically similar location to them, but that means nothing. What probably means something, is that none of them know anything about him when they're in the mission.

 

[Erotic Materia]

There's nothing to refute it, either. So the possibility stands, and that's all I'm saying. That it's possible.

Some random edits the wiki, and whatever they put in there is possible, evidence be damned.

No, it's not. It's drawing conclusions from observations of the scene and providing possibilities that could fit into it.

If it's not established fact, it's headcanon. Drawing conclusions is a subjective act. Hence this entire debate. Your conclusions are different from mine.

Because they largely won't acknowledge its possibility in spite of their disagreement, and in many cases can't seem to resist being snarky about it. What's possible isn't necessarily untrue, either.

You love pulling "possible" out as a defense against everything here. It's possible that Wedge has a HUGE crush on Cloud, you're right. But I doubt it. Because I'm not convinced by any of the same objective evidence that's been laid out so far.

 

[oty]

Ok isn't this getting a little bit out of hand already? Just call it a day and move on. It's not the first time a discussion led to this, specially with Jairus, but don't make it a habit.

 

[Erotic Materia]

 

[Jairus]

That is not all you're saying though, and that's the problem. You're saying that it's possible, and that everyone had best agree with you that's damn near certain, or else they're dismissing your innocent musings out of hand.

I was just making assumptions based on logical human behavior and the likelihood of what that would entail. The way you phrased your argument made it seem like it couldn't ever be possible for there to have been more than one motivation for them to fight, and that's what I took issue with.

You didn't say it's possible that Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie fought and died on the pillar to atone for their sins. You said that that is why they did so, when nothing supports that claim. You can come up with things that might make that be the case, but when other people come up with things that suggest it might not be, that does not count as them dismissing your wishes out of hand. It's just disagreeing.

There's nothing that says it wasn't a part of it, either. I wasn't saying it was the only reason. That's just how you read it. I was saying it could have been a part of it, is all.

That would still mean Cloud only knew them for about three days. He didn't know them before that and nothing suggests that he did. The timeline says he was in a geographically similar location to them, but that means nothing. What probably means something, is that none of them know anything about him when they're in the mission.

Still doesn't mean he couldn't have started to warm a little in that time. That's up to the player. You do have the option of being nice to them (or not), so the possibility for him to have cared exists.

Some random edits the wiki,and whatever they put in there is possible, evidence be damned.

What evidence? Nothing in the game says she couldn't have been that. It's never specified one way or the other. Which means it's possible.

If it's not established fact, it's headcanon. Drawing conclusions is a subjective act. Hence this entire debate. Your conclusions are different from mine.

Fine. I just want to feel like mine are just as valid as anyone else's. And being ganged up on doesn't do that. The more I'm argued with and debated, the more defensive I get. So please back off.

You love pulling "possible" out as a defense against everything here. It's possible that Wedge has a HUGE crush on Cloud, you're right. But I doubt it. Because I'm not convinced by any of the same objective evidence that's been laid out so far.

You're splitting hairs here. You know as well as I do that some possibilities are more likely than others.

Oh and your comic gif is exactly the kind of snark I was talking about. It isn't needed and it only exacerbates the situation.

 

[Odysseus]

Jesus, has everyone played BC? I was under the impression that it was only in Japan, in Japanese, and on Japanese phones.

A guy called "Grimoire Valentine" on youtube has a full playthrough uploaded in English, that's how I know the details anyway.

 

[Erotic Materia]

The more I'm argued with and debated, the more defensive I get. So please back off.

I understand the difficulty of trying to have a civil discussion with someone who absolutely refuses to hold to the same standard. If I find myself getting heated in a discussion, I typically walk away until I can clear my head. Maybe you should consider this, just as a gentle suggestion.

Edit: Actually, perfect timing. It's time to head home, so I'll be doing exactly that, myself.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I have just been looking at the original, yeah.

If we look at the Compilation, it's perfectly clear that if the Turks left, Shinra would never be able to find them. Shinra never found Lazard, Veldt, the other dozen Turks that already left, they only managed to get a hold of Hollander because the man was actively making war of Shinra, when he wasn't actively doing anything, he was fine for years on end. The resources that took Wutai, Hollander, Genesis and the original AVALANCHE down are no longer available to the Shinra of FFVII. If someone quit that they didn't want to, the best hope of tracking them down is the Turks, like they did, when Hojo quit, if the Turks themselves left, Shinra would be pretty screwed. The Turks would get plenty of help going into hiding from all their other Turks friends already in hiding.

Taking the original by itself, one could claim that if Shinra did manage to track their investigative department down, without an investigative department to do this for them, they'd have to submit to the superior force of SOLDIERs still under Shinras command. In the Compilation that's just not a plausible explanation. Unless Reno knows about Deepground and Weiss and Nero's appearance at the end of CC demonstrated a willingness from Shinra Inc. to start actually using them.

Actually, Shinra did find Veld without the Turks' help. They also found Genesis. And Zack. And Lazard, although he fought them off and then died. The Shinra army is not incompetent.

Shinra wasn't looking for the missing Turks because everyone thought they were dead. If the 'surviving' Turks went awol, the Shinra army would leave no stone unturned looking for them, and if the 'dead' Turks tried to help them, that would just create a trail leading to the 'dead' Turks' hiding places.
In any case, though, the surviving Turks couldn't leave, because they owed a debt of honour to Rufus (if you take BC as canon). Without his help, they would all have been killed, including Veld.

 

[Jairus]

How canon is BC, anyway? I've heard of it but never followed much of it, and I know its release was extremely limited and it never made it overseas. I don't take it as canon for that reason, but that's just me.

 

[Tetsujin]

It's as canon to the Compilation as anything else released in it.

 

[ForceStealer]

I also think it's canonicity is a little less firm given that limited release and the medium in sort of a philosophical, tree-falling-in-the-forest kinda way. "Is something canon if no one knows anything about it." But I know that it's also partially wishful thinking 'cause most of it is dumb.

But that's not to say I would try to claim it isn't canon, though if anything else in the compilation contradicts it, I give the advantage firmly to whatever that other thing is. And any contradictions that come about because of the remake will feel lot less like a "retcon" to me than changes to anything else.

 

[Odysseus]

Given that almost nobody can play it anymore, even IN Japan, I've personally chosen to disregard it aside from the parts that are referenced in other compilation entries. If square really wanted us to know the plot at this point they could have remade it on DS, 3DS or anything else over the past 15 years since it came out.

 

[Roger]

Actually, Shinra did find Veld without the Turks' help. They also found Genesis. And Zack. And Lazard, although he fought them off and then died. The Shinra army is not incompetent.

Lazard was fighting off Genesis clones before meeting up with Zack and dying. And again, only because they, not Shinra took action, those five years when Zack wasn't around to mess around with Genesis, Hollander and Lazard were fine, whether that makes the Shinra army incompetent or not.

Shinra wasn't looking for the missing Turks because everyone thought they were dead. If the 'surviving' Turks went awol, the Shinra army would leave no stone unturned looking for them, and if the 'dead' Turks tried to help them, that would just create a trail leading to the 'dead' Turks' hiding places.

In any case, though, the surviving Turks couldn't leave, because they owed a debt of honour to Rufus (if you take BC as canon). Without his help, they would all have been killed, including Veld.

The surviving Turks are stronger then WEAPONS or SOLDIER First Classes short of Sephiroth and maybe Zack and this ain't Zack conciously walking into death to cover for Cloud either. Shinra army is getting a lot of credit to presume they'd prevail of all of them and Elfe. Or do those debts of honor not go both ways?

Rufus isn't the reason Veldt and Elfe survived, he's the reason Tseng needed to shot them. And he made clear that he to Tseng did it for himself. And he becomes President free of his father or anything that'll hold him accountable for his involvement in AVALANCHE but Tseng, Rufus and Rude still willingly work under Heidegger afterwards. I don't see the honor.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Surely Rufus' motives are irrelevant. Tseng and the Turks try their hardest to save Veld and Elfe, but can't manage it; Rufus comes onto the field in extra time and saves the game for them. BC doesn't explain how he did this, but makes it clear that he did. No, wait - it does say he hacked into Shinra's classified files and found the secret place where Veld was being held pending execution (a garbage dump). He gives this information to Tseng (they actually share ten seconds of screen time together!!!) and it's implied that this is when they cook up the fake execution scenario between them.

After he saves Tseng, Rude and Reno for like the second or third time, Rufus says to them, "If you want to show your gratitude, show it in your work," which strongly implies that they had reason to feel grateful towards him. No doubt that was why he did it, to bind the Turks to him through a debt of honour or personal loyalty or whatever you want to call it.

Making the Turks stronger than Weapons or SOLDIER is just silly, IMHO. They clearly are not really that strong. But they have the power of SENPAI-SHIP! They are STRONGER TOGETHER!!

 

[Erotic Materia]

Now I'm imagining Reno with the Tsundere look (is that what it's called? My Weebcabulary isn't very expansive)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I must have looked up the word 'tsundere' at least 50 times over the last ten years yet I still can't remember what it means.

 

[Sephira]

A Tsundere is a person who pretends to hate everything and everyone, but truth is that he or she is a softie.