• Due to datamining of the demo files, substantial leaks are now everywhere. As a reminder, some of these are in-development screenshots and may point to events that aren't going to be in the final game. Some of them are clearly going to be in the game. The TLS stance is this: Any thread which will contain discussion on the leaked images/ details must clearly contain [SPOILERS] within the title. Anything within those threads does not need to be spoiler tagged. Any POST anywhere on the board containing spoilers must be spoiler tagged or it will be removed and warned. Please report this where you see it. Let's try to make sure everyone can still freely post until everyone has a chance to play this game please!

FFVII REMAKE CONFIRMED

Why can there ever be only one motivation for fighting? It's certainly possible that both could have motivated them, or at least the trio since Barret isn't to that point yet. But by Jessie's words, the others are. They're at least aware of what they've done, and by the remorse she shows, it's not a stretch to believe that part of the trio's motivation for fighting in the pillar could have been to atone for what they did as well as protect their home. One reason does not cancel out the other.
It could be, but you were the one who was speaking absolutes. You said if they didn't feel remorse, then they wouldn't have fought in the pillar. When there are other two much more obvious reasons: Following their leader into battle, and protecting their own home.
And then your potential headcanon reason.

And Jessie's words say nothing about Biggs or Wedge, and doesn't even explicitly say she's feeling remorse, much less that it was the whole reason she fought. She can say (depending on what Cloud says), that they killed a lot of people, so maybe her dying is punishment for that. But that doesn't really say anything about WHY she fought in the first place.

The point is you make declarative headcanon statements which could be the case but are by no means obvious, and then accuse others of willfully missing these things.
 

Ryvius

It's Rihv-EYE-us :P
I'm sensing some double standards here, @Jairus. You relentlessly advocate a nuanced interpretation of B/W/J despite the current lack of canon basis/material, but yet when it comes to the Turks, you say you don't understand how people can like them due to their actions. We don't know everything there is to know about what led the Turks/Rufus to be who they are either. This entire game is morally grey. Barret and Tifa didn't truly kill for the planet, they killed for revenge and yet we still love them. Revenge is not noble. They repented, just like Rufus and the Turks repented for their actions after meteorfall.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Having your own motivations and stonecold not believing what AVALANCHE was telling him about the nature of Mako energy when he joined are very different things. Cloud before the final battle tells the group he still has very personal motivations for wanting Sephiroth dead. He does however KNOW by that point that not killing Sephiroth means end of life for everyone that isn't Sephiroth. And they certainly do have a choice, Hojo choose to quit, the Turks came to remove his choice about whether to continue to be a part of this massmurdering company but Hojo still had the courage to try to quit. (I'm not arguing that Hojo did it for any moral reasons, but it still reflects on the Turks that they can't bring themselves to do the same).
In fairness, though, going by the Compilation, the Turks had only just survived execution by the skin of their teeth hours before the Mako Reactor 1 bombing mission. Anyone attempting to leave during the time period when the game started would have probably meant execution for the whole group.

At any rate, the Compilation acknowledged Reno's guilt a little bit, so that has to be taken into account in any analysis of him.

Well, unless just looking at the original. :monster:

So? That doesn't mean that he didn't know who they were. If not by name, at least in general.
"I don't care what your names are. Once this job's over... I'm outta here."

I really don't think he knew. :monster:

The point is you make declarative headcanon statements which could be the case but are by no means obvious, and then accuse others of willfully missing these things.
Yes, and if you take nothing else out of this discussion, Jairus, please let it be this. =|
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
It could be, but you were the one who was speaking absolutes. You said if they didn't feel remorse, then they wouldn't have fought in the pillar. When there are other two much more obvious reasons: Following their leader into battle, and protecting their own home.
And then your potential headcanon reason.

And Jessie's words say nothing about Biggs or Wedge, and doesn't even explicitly say she's feeling remorse, much less that it was the whole reason she fought. She can say (depending on what Cloud says), that they killed a lot of people, so maybe her dying is punishment for that. But that doesn't really say anything about WHY she fought in the first place.

The point is you make declarative headcanon statements which could be the case but are by no means obvious, and then accuse others of willfully missing these things.
Fine, I could have phrased that part differently. But my reason isn't entirely headcanon, and I don't like you dismissing it like that. What Jessie said indicates her feelings, and if she didn't feel remorse about what she had done, she likely wouldn't have even brought it up. And as Barret's second, what she says can be taken to be indicative of how Biggs and Wedge, who are under her in the hierarchy, feel about the matter.

"I don't care what your names are. Once this job's over... I'm outta here."

I really don't think he knew. :monster:


Yes, and if you take nothing else out of this discussion, Jairus, please let it be this. =|
Just because he said that doesn't mean anything. He was playing out a role without realizing it, but that doesn't necessarily reflect his true nature. He could have just been snappy about it because he was annoyed at having to be there and figured the best way to get under everyone's skin was to act the way he did even if he didn't really mean everything he was saying. And we don't know what he did in the month or two leading up to the game or how much/how little contact he had with them during that time. Also, after Tifa convinces him to stay, he doesn't show any more such antagonism as he did during the first mission.

I wouldn't be so defensive if people didn't seem so dismissive of what I have to say.

And Ry, I already let the matter about the Turks go and conceded the point. Otherwise I would have kept arguing about it. People like good villains. Fair enough.
 
I wouldn't be so defensive if people didn't seem so dismissive of what I have to say.
People are only dismissive when you present stuff as definitive truths about the game/story. We are all perfectly happy to entertain and share headcanons.

And we don't know what he did in the month or two leading up to the game or how much/how little contact he had with them during that time.
We don't. But that dialogue is clearly going to suggest to any reasonable person that they don't know each other. Now we can surmise all kinds of things for fun. But the game only gives us indications that he's meeting them right then.
 
AKA
Mr. Ite
An interesting point I saw brought up is that Square-Enix might relieve Reno of the act of pressing the bad red button, much as they relieved Cloud of pressing his bad red button. We’ve seen Reno confronting Cloud on the Pillar. What is the likelihood, do you think, of S-E changing that moment, as they changed the AVALANCHE bombings?
 
I don't see why they would RE: Reno. And even if someone else actually started the countdown, Reno is fighting you SPECIFICALLY to prevent you from disarming it, so how would that make him any less culpable at all? And what do you mean about Cloud?

Oh I guess just that the bomb gets started when stuff falls on it? He still sets the timer and just gets interrupted so that it makes sense why you don't have the time limit during the fight with the Guard Scorpion. I don't think that would 'excuse' him of anything.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Fine, I could have phrased that part differently. But my reason isn't entirely headcanon, and I don't like you dismissing it like that.
He's not being dismissive -- that which we can't verify as canon is headcanon.

You, on the other hand, are constantly being dismissive. You also create these false equivocations a lot:

Jairus said:
What Jessie said indicates her feelings, and if she didn't feel remorse about what she had done, she likely wouldn't have even brought it up.
Such that you make it seem like someone who is challenging an untenable premise you've put across (e.g. "if they didn't feel at least some regret about what happened, they wouldn't have fought at the tower in the first place") is instead challenging a verifiably canon fact: Jessie felt remorse. But that's not what is being challenged.

Stop declaring things you can't verify, and stop conflating things others have said. It's frustrating, and, to be frank, insulting.

Jairus said:
And as Barret's second, what she says can be taken to be indicative of how Biggs and Wedge, who are under her in the hierarchy, feel about the matter.
Is this hierarchy thing something established in canon now?

Jairus said:
Just because he said that doesn't mean anything.
Okay, so nothing that anyone says matters now. Choose Your Own Adventure™ I guess, folks. =|

Jairus said:
He was playing out a role without realizing it, but that doesn't necessarily reflect his true nature. He could have just been snappy about it because he was annoyed at having to be there and figured the best way to get under everyone's skin was to act the way he did even if he didn't really mean everything he was saying.
A dude tries to introduce himself and Cloud says "I don't care what your names are." What, was Biggs in on the role play before he even knew Cloud was doing it?

"We've been hanging out for weeks, but I know you're a douchebag, so I'm going to pretend to introduce myself just to get you to dismiss me to try getting under my skin. So I'm actually trying to get under your skin. Jessie is, too, by the way. That's why she's asking why a SOLDIER with us."

This makes sense to you, bro?
 
An interesting point I saw brought up is that Square-Enix might relieve Reno of the act of pressing the bad red button, much as they relieved Cloud of pressing his bad red button. We’ve seen Reno confronting Cloud on the Pillar. What is the likelihood, do you think, of S-E changing that moment, as they changed the AVALANCHE bombings?
Dude I just said that.
There are ways they could re-write the scene, in which Reno is no longer responsible for starting the bomb timer, and is only responsible for stopping Avalanche from stopping the timer. Or who knows, if they decide to stick with BC canon they might even turn the pillar into a situation where President Shinra is trying to kill 2 birds with one stone by killing the rump of the Turks as well as crushing the whole of sector 7; maybe Reno Rude and Tseng aren't 100% in the know about what's happening and escape by the skin of their teeth or something... I'm not trying to argue that any of this will be in the Remake. It seems very unlikely. But not impossible.
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
People are only dismissive when you present stuff as definitive truths about the game/story. We are all perfectly happy to entertain and share headcanons.
Then why is what I say argued with rather than entertained, as you claim? I wasn't try to say anything was definitive, just present other possibilities. But instead of entertaining them like you claim you do, it feels like some of you are just dismissing them out of hand.

We don't. But that dialogue is clearly going to suggest to any reasonable person that they don't know each other. Now we can surmise all kinds of things for fun. But the game only gives us indications that he's meeting them right then.
So what did he do in Sector 7 that whole month or so prior to the game after Tifa brought him back from the train station? Do you really think he'd have spent all that time there without having any contact with anyone at all? Do you think Tifa would have gone that entire time without mentioning her friends to him or what she did?

He's not being dismissive -- that which we can't verify as canon is headcanon.
I understand the definition of headcanon. It's just that it feels like because that's what it may be, it's being dismissed, is all, and not considered as being possible.

You, on the other hand, are constantly being dismissive. You also create these false equivocations a lot:

Such that you make it seem like someone who is challenging an untenable premise you've put across (e.g. "if they didn't feel at least some regret about what happened, they wouldn't have fought at the tower in the first place") is instead challenging a verifiably canon fact: Jessie felt remorse. But that's not what is being challenged.

Stop declaring things you can't verify, and stop conflating things others have said. It's frustrating, and, to be frank, insulting.
It's not false. Would you express regret if you didn't feel it? Wouldn't that regret lead you to do something to address it, even if you didn't verbally express it? And besides, you took statements from two entirely different posts and spliced them together as if I'd said them together. I didn't. They were referencing the same scene, but not in the same way or in the same post. What you did comes across as disingenuous and misleading. And my premise isn't untenable. It's possible. All I want is for that possibility to not be dismissed or argued with.


Is this hierarchy thing something established in canon now?
Actually, according the wiki, Jessie is in fact stated to be Barret's second-in-command.


Okay, so nothing that anyone says matters now. Choose Your Own Adventure™ I guess, folks. =|

A dude tries to introduce himself and Cloud says "I don't care what your names are." What, was Biggs in on the role play before he even knew Cloud was doing it?

"We've been hanging out for weeks, but I know you're a douchebag, so I'm going to pretend to introduce myself just to get you to dismiss me to try getting under my skin. So I'm actually trying to get under your skin. Jessie is, too, by the way. That's why she's asking why a SOLDIER with us."

This makes sense to you, bro?
Stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. You know I wasn't saying they were in on it. Cloud's wrapped up in his merc persona and was outwardly acting accordingly. But what I was saying was that part of his attitude may have also been due to the fact that he didn't want to be there. So he could have known already who they were - not by name, perhaps (unless Tifa told him during that month), but that they were Barret's team. He might have even seen them around in the month leading up to the game. We don't know how much contact he had with them in that time. I'm just saying that the mission isn't necessarily the first time he ever saw them. That's all I was trying to get across. And what he said could also be taken to mean "I already know what your names are, I just don't care."
 
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You can't trust the wiki, though. It gets things wrong sometimes.

I might be wrong, Jairus, but I don't think anyone is dismissing your headcanons/possible scenarios out of hand. We're thinking about them and then explaining why we're not convinced by them. Thinking it over and finding we don't agree isn't the same thing as dismissing. I worry a bit that you're so invested in the Remake providing us with certain specific revisions to the OG - revisions that we haven't been promised, but which you've persuaded yourself are the only logical possibility - that you're going to be bitterly disappointed by what SE gives us.
 
AKA
Mr. Ite
@LicoriceAllsorts Yes! I was referring to what you said. I’m wondering how likely you (and others) imagine it is to happen. (Edit: saw your edit! Interesting...)

@ForceStealer I don’t know if you heard that Max guy talk about the press-only demo back at E3 but since it happens 10 seconds into the game it doesn’t seem like a big spoiler:
Shinra is aware of the first bombing mission, watches their progress, and blows up his own reactor before the bomb can go off. Narratively, it obfuscates AVALANCHE’s culpability, presumably to make them Gooder Good Guys smh

For a less spoilery observation (thanks @Claymore for the heads up) The Guard Scorpion literally sets the bomb. Damn thing showed you how it’s done.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
You can't trust the wiki, though. It gets things wrong sometimes.

I might be wrong, Jairus, but I don't think anyone is dismissing your headcanons/possible scenarios out of hand. We're thinking about them and then explaining why we're not convinced by them. Thinking it over and finding we don't agree isn't the same thing as dismissing. I worry a bit that you're so invested in the Remake providing us with certain specific revisions to the OG - revisions that we haven't been promised, but which you've persuaded yourself are the only logical possibility - that you're going to be bitterly disappointed by what SE gives us.
One can disagree while still openly allowing for the possibility to exist and do so without putting down those possibilities. And I never said anything about certain things being the only way things can be done. I express hope and interest in certain things happening and get shot down for it. At least that's how it feels.
 
Then why is what I say argued with rather than entertained, as you claim?
Because we're talking about the actual game here. If someone were to come and dismiss your ideas in the Clessie club, or tell you you were wrong about things in your novelization, they would be chastised for doing so. But here you're making declarative statements about things that happened in the actual game.

So what did he do in Sector 7 that whole month or so prior to the game after Tifa brought him back from the train station? Do you really think he'd have spent all that time there without having any contact with anyone at all?
Given their exchange in the Sector 1 train station, I do really think he didn't interact with them, yes.

I understand the definition of headcanon. It's just that it feels like because that's what it may be, it's being dismissed, is all, and not considered as being possible.
No, it's being considered something unconfirmed by the source material when you're describing supposed plot failings like Cloud not mourning them more.

Actually, according the wiki, Jessie is in fact stated to be Barret's second-in-command.
Actually, the wiki states "she roughly acts as Barret's second-in-command." But nothing is cited for that. But even if she is, I don't know how that has anything to do with her speaking for Biggs and Wedge. Why isn't Barret's non-remorse speaking for her if that's how the hierarchy works?
 
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I think it's pretty unlikely but not impossible. Like I said before, writing the Turks is going to be harder this time round. Given that we're getting a full game of just Midgar, I think it's inevitable we're going to get expanded Turk content. The more they appear, and the more they say, the harder it will be to steer that difficult line between making them too appealing and not appealing enough, too good and too bad. But if SE have to err on one side or the other, they'll err on the side of making the Turks more attractive, less guilty, and with more redeeming qualities, simply because they have such a big fan base.
 
I don’t know if you heard that Max guy talk about the press-only demo back at E3 but since it happens 10 seconds into the game it doesn’t seem like a big spoiler:
Shinra is aware of the first bombing mission, watches their progress, and blows up his own reactor before the bomb can go off. Narratively, it obfuscates AVALANCHE’s culpability, presumably to make them Gooder Good Guys smh
If that's true that would change culpabilities (...sort of, he did still set a bomb, lol), but I'm not sure I'm understanding. If that's what happens how are you still in control of your timer to escape? Why wouldn't they just blow it up with you inside? Are you sure it isn't just that Shinra knows and allows it to proceed?
 
AKA
Mr. Ite
I think it's pretty unlikely but not impossible. Like I said before, writing the Turks is going to be harder this time round. Given that we're getting a full game of just Midgar, I think it's inevitable we're going to get expanded Turk content. The more they appear, and the more they say, the harder it will be to steer that difficult line between making them too appealing and not appealing enough, too good and too bad. But if SE have to err on one side or the other, they'll err on the side of making the Turks more attractive, less guilty, and with more redeeming qualities, simply because they have such a big fan base.
I totally get why George R. R. Martin is so hostile towards the fan communities. Using characters because they are loved, and not because they serve the story, is exactly what killed Pirates of the Caribbean as early as the second movie.

If that's true that would change culpabilities (...sort of, he did still set a bomb, lol), but I'm not sure I'm understanding. If that's what happens how are you still in control of your timer to escape? Why wouldn't they just blow it up with you inside? Are you sure it isn't just that Shinra knows and allows it to proceed?
We’ll have to play the game I guess! I’m super side-eyeing that whole thing, but I’ll see how it goes.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream
Because we're talking about the actual game here. If someone were to come and dismiss your ideas in the Clessie club, or tell you you were wrong about things in your novelization, they would be chastised for doing so. But here you're making declarative statements about things that happened in the actual game.
How is using words like "possibly", "could", "might', or "likely" declarative rather than simply exploring what's possible?

Given their exchange in the Sector 1 trains station, I do really think he didn't interact with them, yes.
And as I just said, there's no way to know for sure. You didn't answer my question, either. Do you think he was a hermit that whole month before the mission having no contact with anyone at all?

No, it's being considered something unconfirmed by the source material when your describing supposed plot failings like Cloud not mourning them more.
The source material doesn't confirm he couldn't have, either, though. It goes both ways. All I was trying to say, and what got misinterpreted I guess, was that I would have liked for the trio to not have been so completely forgotten for the rest of the game and that I hope the remake series addresses that.

Actually, the wiki states "she roughly acts as Barret's second-in-command." But nothing is cited for that.
Nothing is cited to disprove it, either. So it's still possible.
 
How is using words like "possibly", "could", "might', or "likely" declarative rather than simply exploring what's possible?
Lic's post covered this I think. Also, you said DEFINITELY that the trio were fighting on the pillar and died because they were remorseful abotu the bombs. You did not say possibly or maybe. You said they would not have been fighting if they hadn't felt bad.

And as I just said, there's no way to know for sure. You didn't answer my question, either. Do you think he was a hermit that whole month before the mission having no contact with anyone at all?
Are these the only three people in Sector 7 all of a sudden? He could have had contact with all sorts of people other than these three.
But, also that he was still a little ~bzzt~ at the time, sure he could've been a hermit too, I dunno. But I don't think Biggs makes a habit of asking him his name every time he sees him.

Nothing is cited to disprove it, either. So it's still possible.
That's not how citations work. But sure it's possible, I don't know what that has to do with her speaking for Biggs and Wedge about their levels of remorse, though.
 
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Erotic Materia

It MUST be a thing
Then why is what I say argued with rather than entertained
That's debate, bruh. People are gonna disagree with you. Deal with it.
Do you really think he'd have spent all that time there without having any contact with anyone at all?
No, that's highly unlikely. I'm sure he interacted with a number of people... that aren't named, Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, or Barret.
But my reason isn't entirely headcanon
It quite literally is entirely headcanon. Twilight already perfectly covered that.
I understand the definition of headcanon. It's just that it feels like because that's what it may be, it's being dismissed, is all, and not considered as being possible.
Headcanon being called headcanon isn't an act of dismissal. What is possible is not necessarily what is true. You seem to take offense to people explaining (very thoroughly, by the way, and with much better clarity than anything my nearly illiterate ass could muster) why it is they don't think your particular flavor of headcanon is likely, and then you rail against them for being dismissive.
Nothing is cited to disprove it, either. So it's still possible.
There's nothing to support the wiki entry, though, at least as far as I've seen. From what do you base this argument? Yes, I know it's possible. But is it real, or just wishful thinking?
 
For a less spoilery observation (thanks Claymore for the heads up) The Guard Scorpion literally sets the bomb. Damn thing showed you how it’s done.
Wait a second, are you saying THAT counts as Shinra blowing up the reactor instead of Avalanche? That's a stretch to say the least. Cloud sets the bomb, and inputs a timer. The Guard Scorpion happens to knock some shit on it that presses the button slightly before you were ready to (because you were in the middle of fighting it). But that does nothing to shift culpability, come on.
 

Erotic Materia

It MUST be a thing
Wait a second, are you saying THAT counts as Shinra blowing up the reactor instead of Avalanche? That's a stretch to say the least. Cloud sets the bomb, and inputs a timer. The Guard Scorpion happens to knock some shit on it that presses the button slightly before you were ready to (because you were in the middle of fighting it). But that does nothing to shift culpability, come on.
I have to ask this: are you avoiding any spoiler stuff? Full disclosure, I feel like this *one* little relevant tidbit isn't terribly spoiler-y.
 
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