Final Fantasy XVI

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
tbh i am assuming they will go to assassinate shiva's dominant and she is going to wreck their shit. she is going to dom those men.

we've only seen 4 minutes which is probably barely a fraction of a still in-development game, and i imagine the lines have been cut up and rearranged like trailers do. there are examples of people (especially online) seeing part of something or hearing from others that there's some problematic content in something and writing it off in a way that comes across unfair and doesn't look at it in context. although i think efforts to catalogue where these elements appear in media have value, i don't think just having a checklist where if a work ticks off one prejudice box it's holistically bad regardless of context is a useful way to approach media. but also just brushing over it and dismissing any complaints as oversensitive whining, that is posting cringe. you can want to uncritically consume media, but don't post cringe. you can post criticism on the internet, a relatively low-effort activity, without it meaning you're apoplectic mad or a sobbing mess. you might just find it annoying.

i can see why people would see this trailer and be disappointed at the lack of diversity being shown so far especially coming off the heels of ffxv (which i still haven't played but at least i own it now), and it's not like there's a dearth of male-led medieval fantasy stories out there. and in the cases where there's problematic content used disapprovingly (character showing prejudice but that character is a villain), even though the work isn't saying 'hey this thing is great and you should do it too,' perfectly understandable if someone doesn't want to deal with that. no one is obligated to engage with any piece of media. if you don't want to deal with sexism or racism or whatever in the fantasy video game you're playing, you shouldn't have to (which is where i find cataloguing or noting these things beneficial as a reference). it sucks to be enjoying something and then you run into something offensive, it can sour the experience and you don't have to go through that just for a work of fiction. i don't think you should then go after people who do decide to engage with it as if they're encouraging bigotry or are bigots themselves.

i think everyone has a different threshold for what they're willing to put up with and what they are looking for in fiction. some people really want to push themselves with hard subjects and are willing to deal with the most provocative material they can find. some just want to chill and have a good time. some people can be both at different times.

not posting this to say i think ffxvi, a game of which i've seen all of 4 minutes, is sexist. the japanese line isn't like "a woman, fighting? impossible!!!" but the implication that a woman would be rare on a battlefield suggests there aren't many women in combat. the older protag's group seemed all male, the only women shown were that snobbish noblewoman and the lady with the cigarette and feathery collar (and that little girl with joshua i guess). and in a game seeming about a possible war starting, you could assume that might lead to a story focused primarily on war and thus on male characters. but it is an assumption, so i don't think everyone needs to cement their hot takes right this instant.

i just hope people don't start with 'historical accuracy' or something if it does turn out to be male-centric (or to criticise it with that if there are lots of female characters to be introduced and they're badass fighters or something). now i skipped a lot of high school to go spend time in the woods or play tekken 3 (i mained jin), but i don't remember the part of history that was about how the dhalmecs fought off the crusaders in the battle of the twin realms and protected their mothercrystal. kinda think all that stuff might be made up, and if they wanted to have every soldier be a woman they could easily make up a reason to explain it.
 
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Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
It's pretty generally accepted about Fang and Vanille, as I understand it, but I know that still wasn't outright stated.
Oh right, forgot about them. Still haven't had any gay men though, have we?
Wall MarketR was so much better handled than it had any right to be, in all fairness.
Gay characters have come a long way from being jokes, but I don't know if Japan is going to make a gay party member yet.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
くそッ 早々に召喚獣を出してきたか! (Damn it, have they brought out their Eikon this quickly!)
Eikon? That thing's a bloody mountain!
i forgot to write this before, but that little katakana ッ (as opposed to a hiragana one) at the end of words shows up in a lot of matsuno's work

it probably means nothing, i just saw it and thought "hey, that's a matsuno thing" and wondering what he's up to now

am i about to go replay vagrant story
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
if they make the protag gay then (and only then) i will take back everything i said about his face tattoo

Oh lol. Part of me kinda misses Mukki, but I think we all know he had to go.
when you're looking at mukki and the jokes you used to make about him as a growing baby gay, but now you realise he plays into some harmful stereotypes and has no place in today's world

f57.jpg
 

Fade

SHR
I do find it eternally hilarious that Japan completely inverts the masculinity stereotypes between bro-ish testosterone factories (total gayers) and delicate-looking pretty boys (manly heroes, intimidating villains). If that doesn't tell you that masculinity stereotypes are meaningless, I don't know what does. So I thank Mukki for that.
 

Glaurung

Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
AKA
Mama Dragon
Glaurung that might ring more true to me if the story isn’t about dudes having dude feuds with other dudes. I don’t trust that the patriarchy on display there is going to be used in a sophisticated or productive way, the same way I don’t believe that the white male’s status as the lead is setting us up for a subversion. It’s going to be normalized, so normalized that mentions of it don’t even bear translating. That’s not exactly the Handmaid’s Tale commentary you’re making it out to be.

I was about to write an answer, but Hito did it infinitely better than me, lol.

Sorry if I came out as dismissing, Ite. Of course I'd also want a female MC, and I still rue the day when they decided to strip Lightning from all her potential as a multi-layered character and reduced her to an angry 21 yo soldier obsessed with her younger sister, with the ocasional gesture of bonding with Hope before being pushed to the background, before the narrative trainwreck that XIII-2 and LR were.

We still don't know anything about the world of FFXVI, their social customs... Just give it time. I myself am expectant about what they would unveil next and I'm holding whatever judgement I might have.

Aaaaand... the lead is white? I'm not being sarcastic here. I always had the impression that japanese developers, especially for FF, design their MCs as a stilized japanese person, which is what the japanese consumer want to see in a videogame, it seems. Have in mind that japanese consumers rarely every look outside their frontiers: they design by and for japanese. Pre time skip MC looks like a boy from Harajuku trying to wear Jin Kazama's hairstyle, tbh.


@Strangelove Don't worry about the "historical acurate" nerds :P. This is a fantasy world; I myself will be happy as long as the story is consistent within itself and its own worldbuilding.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Read an interesting take about Phoenix and Ifrit being like counterparts, Scions of Light and Darkness, maybe related to Warriors of Light and Darkness, which would make sense considering they're taking inspiration from Matsuno's works. Considering its kind of a staple for games like Dragon Age and The Witcher to offer moral options, I also wonder how the fanbase would react if the player could choose to become a Warrior of Darkness at some point.
 

Fade

SHR
Read an interesting take about Phoenix and Ifrit being like counterparts, Scions of Light and Darkness, maybe related to Warriors of Light and Darkness, which would make sense considering they're taking inspiration from Matsuno's works. Considering its kind of a staple for games like Dragon Age and The Witcher to offer moral options, I also wonder how the fanbase would react if the player could choose to become a Warrior of Darkness at some point.

Always thought Ashe's choice in XII felt like it would've been a lightside/darkside choice in a Western RPG.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Considering that before XV we had a three game series where the primary focus was on a female professional soldier, I think we can safely say keeping women off the battefield isn't Square's intent here.

What's weird here is that people immediately started coming up with excuses for why the existing women in previous FFs and the trailer we saw had to be somehow disqualified from existence for the purposes of calling out lack of diversity. "This one is a token, this one is a Cloud gender swap, the ones present in this trailer don't count for some reason even though we don't know anything about their role or characters'.

We'll never get more diverse casts if people keep cutting down the ones we do get in the name of inequality. It's an active obstacle to better representation.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
People like complaining about stuff. And we know nothing about this game yet when it comes to who is in it. Except that it looks like the main protagonist is male. So that's what people will complain about.

There's also the fact that this dev team has never done a single-player FF game before. So there's not a large body of work that they've done to look back on for the people who aren't interested in the MMOs. So a lot of people are probably assuming the worst-case scenario right off the bat because they don't know what to expect from the devs.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
What's weird here is that people immediately started coming up with excuses for why the existing women in previous FFs and the trailer we saw had to be somehow disqualified from existence for the purposes of calling out lack of diversity. "This one is a token, this one is a Cloud gender swap, the ones present in this trailer don't count for some reason even though we don't know anything about their role or characters'.

We'll never get more diverse casts if people keep cutting down the ones we do get in the name of inequality. It's an active obstacle to better representation.
I don't want to be a dick about it here, but some people just like getting offended for the sake of it. That's why I was annoyed at the implication that square didn't have any female representation a few pages ago. I feel like the people that are being the most vocal about it were never going to play the game anyway.
Does the Final Fantasy series have a bias towards Male characters? Yes. We even talked about the odd "three girls" tendency of the series a few pages ago, but that's ignoring that those girls are usually some of the Biggest players in the story. Tifa and Aerith are second only to Cloud in terms of relevance, and are high above characters like Vincent or Cid. Rinoa if basically the only other party member that matters at all in VIII besides Squall, Yuna might as well be the main character of X, and IS the MC of X-2, I didn't play XII lol, and as mentioned Lightning got her own trilogy. There's also non-FF examples like Aya Brea from Parasite Eve that show Square isn't afraid of girls. FFXV was an outlier in the series as a whole, and that was because "brotherhood" was the main theme of the game.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Aaaaand... the lead is white? I'm not being sarcastic here. I always had the impression that japanese developers, especially for FF, design their MCs as a stilized japanese person, which is what the japanese consumer want to see in a videogame, it seems. Have in mind that japanese consumers rarely every look outside their frontiers: they design by and for japanese. Pre time skip MC looks like a boy from Harajuku trying to wear Jin Kazama's hairstyle, tbh.
you see the comment that anime characters and the like all 'look white' which i think is maybe not the best way to look at it. sailor moon lives in japan and has a japanese name and is japanese (but also she's a moon princess), but she has big blue eyes and long blonde hair. but that doesn't mean she's white nor meant to look so. do white people have pink or blue hair, like anime characters do? you can look at characters who are pointedly made to look like white westerns to differentiate them from the japanese cast, and they will be drawn with a long pronounced nose or something and not the small nose associated with characters that 'look white'

manga and derivative media use stylised iconography that's not meant to represent a specific race or nationality (i've seen it called 無国籍/mukokuseki or stateless but idk if that's a common term for it). idk if some of this is seeing a stylised face and unconsciously associating that with the race you're more familiar with, unless it's drawn with exaggerated racial features. if the image isn't sufficiently 'othered' you can associate to it more easily.

i tend to judge characters' 'nationalities' by things like setting and character name/profile. 'tsukino usagi' is japanese. but i'm going to assume a pasty-looking guy called 'harold anderson' is going to be white (i couldn't actually think of a white anime character in a real world setting because i'm not a filthy weeb or something) what are you talking about, hito you filthy weeb. 'joseph joestar', son of johnathan and erina joestar from england, is probably meant to be white. i tried to avoid strictly fictional settings like fantasy and sci-fi so far, where i think 'mukokuseki' would really come in. but looking at an edward elric, i think it's a safe assumption he's at very least based on a white person. i base that on name as well tbh.

i get why you'd take the ffxvi characters for being white, since they're pale-skinned people in a setting that stylistically resembles popular depictions of a fantasy medieval europe, commonly thought of and portrayed as being very white. i know there's contentions around the idea that there were no people of colour (some of who can be pale-skinned too) in europe at that time, but here's the great thing. it's actually not medieval europe. it's a fictional setting and they can put whoever they want in there. which would be nice to see, because i thought the npcs in ff7r had a good variety to them.

anyway i forgot the point i was trying to make now
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I was gonna question lead = white thing, but then I remembered the official announcement trailer was done in English with British accents so..... maybe I guess in this case? Unless I'm mistaken about the details of this reveal. Idk. The FF characters are pretty Asian looking across the board, with some having slightly more/less European features.

I agree that the trailer is a bit milquetoast in general, but I don't really think there's enough to say much more than that. But since the general sentiment seems to be that we are hoping for more party members, what would we like to see? I am thinking if we do get a party, we'll probably get at least 4. If we are really lucky we might see 8, but I somehow doubt it.

I kinda want a creature party member, but I'm not really holding out hope on that (especially with the way the summons would be integrating with the gameplay). DMC5 had the emo guy with the dog tho, so who knows.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i wonder how much of characters looking asian is down to artists (in this case probably japanese) using themselves as reference? i remember watching somt bts stuff for spirits within and the guy animating the villain (played by james woods, a real life villain) was looking in a mirror while working on the animation for the face.

or do they just scan actual faces now

i don't know what i'm talking about here, i made the donut in blender and that's it, just ignore me
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I think it's down to them
A) using Japanese models, and
B) wanting to appeal to their domestic audience.

If I recall, isn't super pale skin a sign of beauty in Japan? I had always assumed that the characters were never actually "supposed" to be white and it was a coincidence that arose from a number of factors. Nowadays the vague racial thing might be more intentional.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
In straight-played anime and abstract graphics, it's a relatively common argument/supposition that people in Japan are assuming the characters look Japanese,etc.

As you get into more realistic graphics though, that gets a little less clear when you have characters like Yuffie clearly having more East Asian features than other characters. So what are the other characters "imagined" as being? :monster:
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Some are pretty easy, like Barret. But then you have Cloud and Tifa who have too many "Asian" features (particularly their eyes) to be European, but then have a face structure that feels to broad to be completely Asian either. The big givaway I've found that most modern FF characters are from a JP studio is their eyes. They never look quite right for them to look like European eyes.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
The world and ethnicities of FFVII are an amalgam of various cultures and locations. Wutai is hugely inspired by Japan, right down to the post-war occupation tension where older folks make peace with defeat while the younger generation (Yuffie) fights to reclaim its self determined pride in the face of overwhelming military might.

Nibelheim is heavily inspired by US Northwestern Rocky Mountain towns of the turn of the century. Midgar is cyberpunk post-bubble Tokyo mixed with New York and with accelerated income inequality and social stratification. You get also sorts of mishmashed geographic and cultural hallmarks spread out in VII due the fantasy setting being so free to draw from numerous sources of inspiration. Japanese living in podunk western towns and coal mining mountain villages housing all sorts of diverse folks as they try to make a living in anl technologically accelerating world. It's why I love the setting so much. It's as diverse and varied as you can imagine.
 
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There are lots of British Asians with British accents.
This is confusing anyway for me because in my mind "Asian" means "looks like their family came from the Indian subcontinent" and not "looks like their family came from Japan/China/Korean/Vietnam etc....
The XVI protag has a face that could easily be a Bollywood actor's.

PS I always assumed Nibelheim was based on Bavaria or some mountainous part of Scandinavia
 
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