Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
Final Fantasy XVI
- Thread starter Lex
- Start date
Fade
SHR
My gut says they're just hidden for the sake of aesthetics and an incomplete UI. I didn't notice (on my single watch) anything that would preclude a VIIR-style ATB system, though. I wouldn't be surprised if they went that route as it seemed relatively popular. I'm actually more surprised this different team didn't attempt something more classic, given that there are plenty of examples of modern JRPGs still using the basic guts of JRPG combat while remaining popular.
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Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
The other way to read the "it'll be hard to miss her on the battlefeild" is that it has more to do with her being "Shiva's Dominant" than with her being a woman. The summons in this game are not... subtle... in any size, shape or form. If someone is summoning a Shiva as tall as a ten-story building (or transforming into her more like it), then that's going to be really obvious on a battlefield. And low and behold, the next frame is Shiva getting in a fight with what looks like Titan with everyone scrambling around beneath her.
I really wouldn't take FF7R as an example as how Square is going to handel this. FF7 had a lot of... controversial portrayals of things by today's standards that would have to be thought about. FFXVI is being made from whole cloth. Also, looking at the other games this creative team has put out before and what kind of stories the rumored scenario head has worked on, they have a very good track record with writing non-passive female characters. These are the people who gave us Y'shtola, Alisae, Kann-E, Nanamo, Merywybb, Ysalye (Iceheart), Yugiri, Fordola, Yotsuyu, Ryne, and countless other female side characters who aren't doormats for anyone. There is going to be strong female characters, we have just seen zero cut-scenes relative to the overall length of a 40-60 hour game.
Judging the gender split for FFXVI based on this trailer is like judging the gender split of FF7 based on the trailer that only had bits and pieces of the bombing mission in it. We just knew what the cast of FF7 was going to be before seeing that trailer, so no one bothered mentioning there was only one girl in it. Like seriously, can you imagine what people would have said about FF7 in regards to gender ratios if the first trailer they got of it was bombing missing footage that was designed to hide all of the main class except the main character? And they had no idea what the rest of the game would be about yet?
I really wouldn't take FF7R as an example as how Square is going to handel this. FF7 had a lot of... controversial portrayals of things by today's standards that would have to be thought about. FFXVI is being made from whole cloth. Also, looking at the other games this creative team has put out before and what kind of stories the rumored scenario head has worked on, they have a very good track record with writing non-passive female characters. These are the people who gave us Y'shtola, Alisae, Kann-E, Nanamo, Merywybb, Ysalye (Iceheart), Yugiri, Fordola, Yotsuyu, Ryne, and countless other female side characters who aren't doormats for anyone. There is going to be strong female characters, we have just seen zero cut-scenes relative to the overall length of a 40-60 hour game.
Judging the gender split for FFXVI based on this trailer is like judging the gender split of FF7 based on the trailer that only had bits and pieces of the bombing mission in it. We just knew what the cast of FF7 was going to be before seeing that trailer, so no one bothered mentioning there was only one girl in it. Like seriously, can you imagine what people would have said about FF7 in regards to gender ratios if the first trailer they got of it was bombing missing footage that was designed to hide all of the main class except the main character? And they had no idea what the rest of the game would be about yet?
Lex
Administrator
This is why I said "in YoshiP we trust". Right now I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not about to ignore red flags either. The truth is we don't know how this game is going to go with regard to its female characters, so we shouldn't be getting down on people for feeling some kind of way about potential issues when the last mainline entry did set a poor precedent. It's absolutely right though that that's probably Tabata's fault and he's gone now so it should be less of a worry.
I'm personally surprised the protag isn't female, I thought they'd have another. But I like the look of the new one, so I'm not complaining
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I think it's more that it's been a long time since we've had a totally new FF game to get trailers for. As in, one where we didn't have some idea with what was already supposed going on it or who the cast already was. FFVIIR is obvious: we've known who the cast of that game was for over 25 years now.. FFXV, we knew who the four main party members were going to be before FFXIIIVerses was even rebranded as FFXV.
Here, I'm thinking about what the very first FFXIII or FFXII trailers looked like. And from what I remember, we never saw the full party or cast in those. Just the main character. Then subsequent trailers revealed more and more of the main party and the actual conflict going on. And since when are the very first teaser trailers of a 40-60 hour game with no extra info said about the story/cast/setting ever considered good representatives of what their game is actually about?
Here, I'm thinking about what the very first FFXIII or FFXII trailers looked like. And from what I remember, we never saw the full party or cast in those. Just the main character. Then subsequent trailers revealed more and more of the main party and the actual conflict going on. And since when are the very first teaser trailers of a 40-60 hour game with no extra info said about the story/cast/setting ever considered good representatives of what their game is actually about?
Fade
SHR
Wall MarketR was so much better handled than it had any right to be, in all fairness.
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
tbh i am assuming they will go to assassinate shiva's dominant and she is going to wreck their shit. she is going to dom those men.
we've only seen 4 minutes which is probably barely a fraction of a still in-development game, and i imagine the lines have been cut up and rearranged like trailers do. there are examples of people (especially online) seeing part of something or hearing from others that there's some problematic content in something and writing it off in a way that comes across unfair and doesn't look at it in context. although i think efforts to catalogue where these elements appear in media have value, i don't think just having a checklist where if a work ticks off one prejudice box it's holistically bad regardless of context is a useful way to approach media. but also just brushing over it and dismissing any complaints as oversensitive whining, that is posting cringe. you can want to uncritically consume media, but don't post cringe. you can post criticism on the internet, a relatively low-effort activity, without it meaning you're apoplectic mad or a sobbing mess. you might just find it annoying.
i can see why people would see this trailer and be disappointed at the lack of diversity being shown so far especially coming off the heels of ffxv (which i still haven't played but at least i own it now), and it's not like there's a dearth of male-led medieval fantasy stories out there. and in the cases where there's problematic content used disapprovingly (character showing prejudice but that character is a villain), even though the work isn't saying 'hey this thing is great and you should do it too,' perfectly understandable if someone doesn't want to deal with that. no one is obligated to engage with any piece of media. if you don't want to deal with sexism or racism or whatever in the fantasy video game you're playing, you shouldn't have to (which is where i find cataloguing or noting these things beneficial as a reference). it sucks to be enjoying something and then you run into something offensive, it can sour the experience and you don't have to go through that just for a work of fiction. i don't think you should then go after people who do decide to engage with it as if they're encouraging bigotry or are bigots themselves.
i think everyone has a different threshold for what they're willing to put up with and what they are looking for in fiction. some people really want to push themselves with hard subjects and are willing to deal with the most provocative material they can find. some just want to chill and have a good time. some people can be both at different times.
not posting this to say i think ffxvi, a game of which i've seen all of 4 minutes, is sexist. the japanese line isn't like "a woman, fighting? impossible!!!" but the implication that a woman would be rare on a battlefield suggests there aren't many women in combat. the older protag's group seemed all male, the only women shown were that snobbish noblewoman and the lady with the cigarette and feathery collar (and that little girl with joshua i guess). and in a game seeming about a possible war starting, you could assume that might lead to a story focused primarily on war and thus on male characters. but it is an assumption, so i don't think everyone needs to cement their hot takes right this instant.
i just hope people don't start with 'historical accuracy' or something if it does turn out to be male-centric (or to criticise it with that if there are lots of female characters to be introduced and they're badass fighters or something). now i skipped a lot of high school to go spend time in the woods or play tekken 3 (i mained jin), but i don't remember the part of history that was about how the dhalmecs fought off the crusaders in the battle of the twin realms and protected their mothercrystal. kinda think all that stuff might be made up, and if they wanted to have every soldier be a woman they could easily make up a reason to explain it.
we've only seen 4 minutes which is probably barely a fraction of a still in-development game, and i imagine the lines have been cut up and rearranged like trailers do. there are examples of people (especially online) seeing part of something or hearing from others that there's some problematic content in something and writing it off in a way that comes across unfair and doesn't look at it in context. although i think efforts to catalogue where these elements appear in media have value, i don't think just having a checklist where if a work ticks off one prejudice box it's holistically bad regardless of context is a useful way to approach media. but also just brushing over it and dismissing any complaints as oversensitive whining, that is posting cringe. you can want to uncritically consume media, but don't post cringe. you can post criticism on the internet, a relatively low-effort activity, without it meaning you're apoplectic mad or a sobbing mess. you might just find it annoying.
i can see why people would see this trailer and be disappointed at the lack of diversity being shown so far especially coming off the heels of ffxv (which i still haven't played but at least i own it now), and it's not like there's a dearth of male-led medieval fantasy stories out there. and in the cases where there's problematic content used disapprovingly (character showing prejudice but that character is a villain), even though the work isn't saying 'hey this thing is great and you should do it too,' perfectly understandable if someone doesn't want to deal with that. no one is obligated to engage with any piece of media. if you don't want to deal with sexism or racism or whatever in the fantasy video game you're playing, you shouldn't have to (which is where i find cataloguing or noting these things beneficial as a reference). it sucks to be enjoying something and then you run into something offensive, it can sour the experience and you don't have to go through that just for a work of fiction. i don't think you should then go after people who do decide to engage with it as if they're encouraging bigotry or are bigots themselves.
i think everyone has a different threshold for what they're willing to put up with and what they are looking for in fiction. some people really want to push themselves with hard subjects and are willing to deal with the most provocative material they can find. some just want to chill and have a good time. some people can be both at different times.
not posting this to say i think ffxvi, a game of which i've seen all of 4 minutes, is sexist. the japanese line isn't like "a woman, fighting? impossible!!!" but the implication that a woman would be rare on a battlefield suggests there aren't many women in combat. the older protag's group seemed all male, the only women shown were that snobbish noblewoman and the lady with the cigarette and feathery collar (and that little girl with joshua i guess). and in a game seeming about a possible war starting, you could assume that might lead to a story focused primarily on war and thus on male characters. but it is an assumption, so i don't think everyone needs to cement their hot takes right this instant.
i just hope people don't start with 'historical accuracy' or something if it does turn out to be male-centric (or to criticise it with that if there are lots of female characters to be introduced and they're badass fighters or something). now i skipped a lot of high school to go spend time in the woods or play tekken 3 (i mained jin), but i don't remember the part of history that was about how the dhalmecs fought off the crusaders in the battle of the twin realms and protected their mothercrystal. kinda think all that stuff might be made up, and if they wanted to have every soldier be a woman they could easily make up a reason to explain it.
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ForceStealer
Double Growth
It's pretty generally accepted about Fang and Vanille, as I understand it, but I know that still wasn't outright stated.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Well said, Hito. When you've built a world from scratch, "historical accuracy" means whatever you, the creator, choose it to mean.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Oh right, forgot about them. Still haven't had any gay men though, have we?
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
i forgot to write this before, but that little katakana ッ (as opposed to a hiragana one) at the end of words shows up in a lot of matsuno's work
it probably means nothing, i just saw it and thought "hey, that's a matsuno thing" and wondering what he's up to now
am i about to go replay vagrant story
Fade
SHR
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Oh lol. Part of me kinda misses Mukki, but I think we all know he had to go.I was agreeing with you, not disputing
Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
if they make the protag gay then (and only then) i will take back everything i said about his face tattoo
when you're looking at mukki and the jokes you used to make about him as a growing baby gay, but now you realise he plays into some harmful stereotypes and has no place in today's world
Fade
SHR
I do find it eternally hilarious that Japan completely inverts the masculinity stereotypes between bro-ish testosterone factories (total gayers) and delicate-looking pretty boys (manly heroes, intimidating villains). If that doesn't tell you that masculinity stereotypes are meaningless, I don't know what does. So I thank Mukki for that.
Glaurung
Forgot the cutesy in my other pants. Sorry.
- AKA
- Mama Dragon
I was about to write an answer, but Hito did it infinitely better than me, lol.
Sorry if I came out as dismissing, Ite. Of course I'd also want a female MC, and I still rue the day when they decided to strip Lightning from all her potential as a multi-layered character and reduced her to an angry 21 yo soldier obsessed with her younger sister, with the ocasional gesture of bonding with Hope before being pushed to the background, before the narrative trainwreck that XIII-2 and LR were.
We still don't know anything about the world of FFXVI, their social customs... Just give it time. I myself am expectant about what they would unveil next and I'm holding whatever judgement I might have.
Aaaaand... the lead is white? I'm not being sarcastic here. I always had the impression that japanese developers, especially for FF, design their MCs as a stilized japanese person, which is what the japanese consumer want to see in a videogame, it seems. Have in mind that japanese consumers rarely every look outside their frontiers: they design by and for japanese. Pre time skip MC looks like a boy from Harajuku trying to wear Jin Kazama's hairstyle, tbh.
@Strangelove Don't worry about the "historical acurate" nerds
. This is a fantasy world; I myself will be happy as long as the story is consistent within itself and its own worldbuilding.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
Read an interesting take about Phoenix and Ifrit being like counterparts, Scions of Light and Darkness, maybe related to Warriors of Light and Darkness, which would make sense considering they're taking inspiration from Matsuno's works. Considering its kind of a staple for games like Dragon Age and The Witcher to offer moral options, I also wonder how the fanbase would react if the player could choose to become a Warrior of Darkness at some point.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Just to remind people of what early trailers of other FF games looked like...
Ashe's quest is barley even mentioned, even though it's arguably the main driving story of FFXIIe. The first glimpse we had of FFXIII had no story info at all.
Ashe's quest is barley even mentioned, even though it's arguably the main driving story of FFXIIe. The first glimpse we had of FFXIII had no story info at all.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Considering that before XV we had a three game series where the primary focus was on a female professional soldier, I think we can safely say keeping women off the battefield isn't Square's intent here.
What's weird here is that people immediately started coming up with excuses for why the existing women in previous FFs and the trailer we saw had to be somehow disqualified from existence for the purposes of calling out lack of diversity. "This one is a token, this one is a Cloud gender swap, the ones present in this trailer don't count for some reason even though we don't know anything about their role or characters'.
We'll never get more diverse casts if people keep cutting down the ones we do get in the name of inequality. It's an active obstacle to better representation.
What's weird here is that people immediately started coming up with excuses for why the existing women in previous FFs and the trailer we saw had to be somehow disqualified from existence for the purposes of calling out lack of diversity. "This one is a token, this one is a Cloud gender swap, the ones present in this trailer don't count for some reason even though we don't know anything about their role or characters'.
We'll never get more diverse casts if people keep cutting down the ones we do get in the name of inequality. It's an active obstacle to better representation.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
People like complaining about stuff. And we know nothing about this game yet when it comes to who is in it. Except that it looks like the main protagonist is male. So that's what people will complain about.
There's also the fact that this dev team has never done a single-player FF game before. So there's not a large body of work that they've done to look back on for the people who aren't interested in the MMOs. So a lot of people are probably assuming the worst-case scenario right off the bat because they don't know what to expect from the devs.
There's also the fact that this dev team has never done a single-player FF game before. So there's not a large body of work that they've done to look back on for the people who aren't interested in the MMOs. So a lot of people are probably assuming the worst-case scenario right off the bat because they don't know what to expect from the devs.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I don't want to be a dick about it here, but some people just like getting offended for the sake of it. That's why I was annoyed at the implication that square didn't have any female representation a few pages ago. I feel like the people that are being the most vocal about it were never going to play the game anyway.
Does the Final Fantasy series have a bias towards Male characters? Yes. We even talked about the odd "three girls" tendency of the series a few pages ago, but that's ignoring that those girls are usually some of the Biggest players in the story. Tifa and Aerith are second only to Cloud in terms of relevance, and are high above characters like Vincent or Cid. Rinoa if basically the only other party member that matters at all in VIII besides Squall, Yuna might as well be the main character of X, and IS the MC of X-2, I didn't play XII lol, and as mentioned Lightning got her own trilogy. There's also non-FF examples like Aya Brea from Parasite Eve that show Square isn't afraid of girls. FFXV was an outlier in the series as a whole, and that was because "brotherhood" was the main theme of the game.