Final Fantasy XVI

[Clement Rage]

It can be, but doesn't have to be. Context is important.

 

[Strangelove]

to go back to some of the designs looking a bit bland and generic, i think having 'medieval patriarchal setting' is another thing that would make it feel more generic. it's like the base kit of fantasy settings

 

[Ite]

I disagree. It depends on the kind of world you want to present, the kind of story you want to tell, the messages you want to convey.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a make-believe world in which war is considered a very low-class activity, only disposable people are warriors, and women are too powerful and important to be wasted on the battlefield. I'd love to see a make-believe world that didn't make warrior synonymous with hero.

You might’ve enjoyed my D&D world, where my matriarchal anarchocommunist elven society put warriors so low on the social pecking order that the women saw no value in becoming warriors. This, however, I kind of realized was partly motivated by my desire to use elven warriors as meat for the grinding, and didn’t want to senselessly slaughter a bunch of women in a game of make believe with my friends. Is that sexist? I’m not sure, but it definitely was coming from a meta perspective and not immersed in the world (an anarchocommunist matriarchy would surely have some women who wanted nothing more than to bash in the heads of dinosaurs and gremlins).

Do I think that the “a woman on the battlefield will stick out like a sore thumb” is a trope so vile that is CANCELS the game? Absolutely not. It’s just tiresome and makes me wince, because if there is a meta reason for it, I must assume that meta reason is about not rocking the patriarchy’s boat, rather than some high-falutin concept that will challenge medievalist thinking, while appearing medievalist. I feel like something like that would have taken more of a centre stage in this trailer, like, say, having a female character with a name.

 

[leowhy77]

Just a suggestion that shall we not too “over analysed and conclusive” especially concerning the game inherited world culture thing (race/sex oriented) for now? It’s just the beginning of a <5mins trailer!

From the trailer where it didn’t show any female playable character, my guess it’s dev decision to reserve her for the upcoming trailers... to give us a “wow” factor....

Remember the general crowd reactions when FF7R showing off Tifa? People had been highly anticipating Tifa’s final design and the result was... well, I think that’s a similar motive here...

 

[Ite]

Just a suggestion that shall we not too “over analysed and conclusive” especially concerning the game inherited world culture thing (race/sex oriented) for now? It’s just the beginning of a <5mins trailer!

From the trailer where it didn’t show any female playable character, my guess it’s dev decision to reserve her for the upcoming trailers... to give us a “wow” factor....

Remember the general crowd reactions when FF7R showing off Tifa? People had been highly anticipating Tifa’s final design and the result was... well, I think that’s a similar motive here...

You’re quite right, Leo. For my part, I’m interested to learn more about the high status woman at the war council and her quasi-Irish accent (is it deliberate? ) but for now all things are unknown — remember how similar FFXV was to the Shakespeare trailer of Versus XIII.

 

[leowhy77]

You’re quite right, Leo. For my part, I’m interested to learn more about the high status woman at the war council and her quasi-Irish accent (is it deliberate? ) but for now all things are unknown — remember how similar FFXV was to the Shakespeare trailer of Versus XIII.

I can only say probably for now? lol

Anyway a bit of diversion... I am amazed by the Malboro fighting sequence... I mean the latest version I seen this creature is in FF7R simulator and this one is in the wild and very nasty looking...

And what about little enemy’s the player fight? Some kind of magical mutated monsters?

I also wonder what the battle concept they introduce this time... the magic seems directly generated from their body so it’s in born or infused with “crystals( this game main theme)? What I mean is how is this compare to Materia in FF7 or Guardian Force in FF8...

Last but not least, can I roughly interpret this game theme as humans factions are fighting among themselves and summon monsters are also fighting among themselves?

 

[Ite]

Last but not least, can I roughly interpret this game theme as humans factions are fighting among themselves and summon monsters are also fighting among themselves?

I get the same notion. I took from the logo that the humans would be swept up in a godswar, and that the squabble of human factions will give way to a supernatural threat playing both sides against the middle — again, it’s very Ivalice in a way that has me salivating.

I love that logo and the whole idea of Ifrit vs. Phoenix. Fight fire with fire!! Make a go BIG BOOM!

 

[Odysseus]

I kind of realized was partly motivated by my desire to use elven warriors as meat for the grinding, and didn’t want to senselessly slaughter a bunch of women in a game of make believe with my friends. Is that sexist?

In the context of your dnd campaign I'd say it doesn't really matter, but I'm now wondering whether it's more sexist to keep women out of battle because "it would be senseless to slaughter women," or if it's more sexist that you think it's fine for men to be disposable meat for the slaughter.

 

[Clement Rage]

If we're taking votes, I would say 'yes, that is sexist', but 'men are the expendable gender' is a particular hatred of mine.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It really depends on context.

Let's say that DnD campaign was a fictional work with an audience. The characters you have going out, actively fighting and advancing the plot are specifically one gender. The women are excluded from advancing the plot or really doing anything active within the world like their compatriots. Regardless of the motivation of sidelining them, you've excluded them actively participating. That's not really a reflection of egalitarianism.

However, a private DnD campaign isn't really a fictional work, is it? It has no audience, no narrative message, it's simply an exercise of creative leisure and entertainment. Choosing to make a matriarchal society that for whatever reason relegates combat to men is your choice and doesn't necessarily reflect any broader message, unless you want it to. Context and relevance are important. There's a big difference between exercising preference for one's personal entertainment and what you put out there for an audience to consume. I don't think critique of personal choice does any real good.

 

[Ite]

All good points, but my meta considerations weren’t divorced from context. There is no such thing as “no audience,” I and my friends live in a world that regularly dehumanizes and perpetuates violence against women. The wholesale disemboweling of women as a background set piece isn’t something I really wanted to bring into our escapism.

Unfortunately, the alternative is as Clement said, men as the expendable gender. But, in a story about war, which is worse? What was I more comfortable describing, as the lead storyteller in a group game of pretend? When playing an Arkham game, how would you feel if the thugs weren’t all men? If you, as Batman, with your high tech gadgets and power suit, were pummeling nameless women unconscious? Is that better than making men the expendable gender?

I suppose it’s the kind of question FFXVI is somewhat tasked with, although rewatching the trailer shows the only two adult women as not really being trustworthy, with mom covering her mouth while speaking and hiding the dangerous magic boy, and the other defying her oath and walking out on the men at the war table. The only other women I can see are the Penelo (no dialogue) and a comment about a Shiva girl that we’re tasked with (hey!) murdering.

If they had names, I‘d be a lot more pacified, but they don’t.

Edit: I should probably clarify that the elf warrior dudes were of a faceless army of NPCs, not requirements I placed on my players, who lived in a more FFT-esque human society, as in, a patriarchy where someone like Agrias is not out of place. It was just specifically elves that I needed to blow away violently and en masse.... :/

 

[cold_spirit]

Oh gosh I have a lot to catch up on in this thread. On representation in FF:

Gotta prologue this with a "I think XVI is going to be amazing", which I hate that I have to say first but I'm seeing fans get super defensive already, which is a bit disappointing.

No one is questioning that FF doesn't have amazing female characters. The issue is ratio and timing. First, let's consider the number of female main characters throughout the series. We have Terra, XI create-a-character, Lightning, and XIV create-a-character. We're looking at 2-4 female leads out of 16 games. That's 25% or less depending on how one counts the MMOs. A fourth.

The second is timing. XIII launched 17 December 2009 and vanilla XIV launched 30 September 2010. The last time we had a female lead was 10+ years ago, again, depending on how one counts the MMOs. A decade.

Lastly, just gonna say it, representation is important. Not gonna argue this one.

So yeah, I feel like people expressing disappointment in XVI on this topic is a totally valid criticism. I wish fans just acknowledged this instead of deploying a straw man argument. It's okay to be critical of the game and also enjoy it, I know I will!

Also, this isn't directed at anyone in particular around here, just what I've been seeing as a whole on the net. I also think it's great this is such a big conversation in the community right now.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well if you wish to consider your friends and yourself as an audience, you're more than welcome to. That's your choice, and if that's how you wish to align with your ethics, go for it. However, at the end of the day, only you can fully make that determination because you are reflecting on your own ethos and determination of exemplifying what you believe. If you wish to ponder that decision and do what you feel is more egalitarian, then that's what you gotta do.

Batman actually does fight women enemies in the Akrham series. The assassins belonging to Ras Al Ghul. And Batman handles them just like any other enemy. He doesn't kill them, he subdues them like any other enemy. I think that's fair. It'd be absurd and a ridiculously milquetoast depiction of Gotham if every enemy save for Catwoman, Harley and Poison Ivy were men. That's not a rational or accurate portrayal of Gotham and Batman fights anybody. He just does.

Oh gosh I have a lot to catch up on in this thread. On representation in FF:

Gotta prologue this with a "I think XVI is going to be amazing", which I hate that I have to say first but I'm seeing fans get super defensive already, which is a bit disappointing.

No one is questioning that FF doesn't have amazing female characters. The issue is ratio and timing. First, let's consider the number of female main characters throughout the series. We have Terra, XI create-a-character, Lightning, and XIV create-a-character. We're looking at 2-4 female leads out of 16 games. That's only 25% or less depending on how one counts the MMOs. A fourth.

The second is timing. XIII launched 17 December 2009 and vanilla XIV launched 30 September 2010. The last time we had a female lead was 10+ years ago, again, depending on how one counts the MMOs. A decade.

Not sure why you've ignored Yuna and the Gullwings of X-2. And then there's Reynn of World of Final Fantasy. I'd also argue Ashe of FFXII given the sheer scope, focus and importance she holds within XII. Vaan may be our surrogate but the story clearly revolves around Ashe and her development.

MMORPG FFs are analyzed over their memorable and consistently important NPCs since your playable character is merely an avatar of yourself. FFXI had numerous important and key women main characters like Lillisette, Lion, Prishe, Arciela, Aphmau, Shantotto, and Iroha.

Then there's the Scions of the Seventh Dawn in FFXIV. Y'shtola, Krille, Allisae, Lyse, Tataru, and Minfilia.

There are a lot of main characters who are women. I'm sure there are more in XIV that I'm neglecting but that's just off the top of my head.

You can't just discount XIV because it's an MMORPG and you don't play it. It exists. Millions of FF fans play it and experience it. The matter of timing or whatever is an arbitrary erasure of writing that's still consistently happening. Not just from A Realm Reborn, but up to Shadowbringers. This year.

Lastly, just gonna say it, representation is important. Not gonna argue this one.

So yeah, I feel like people expressing disappointment in XVI on this topic is a totally valid criticism. I wish fans just acknowledged this instead of deploying a straw man argument. It's okay to be critical of the game and also enjoy it, I know I will!

It most certainly is important. Which is why you shouldn't ignore it when it happens, even if it's not one you actively play. Pretending Lightning is the last important main woman character in FF is erasing reality. Like a decade of it. They do exist.

If XVI becomes a sausagefest I'll be the first to criticise and be disappointed by it. But this is waaaay too early to even make that determination. No data exists to prove or deny this. It's meaningless to criticise this now when it literally just got revealed.

 

[Odysseus]

When playing an Arkham game, how would you feel if the thugs weren’t all men? If you, as Batman, with your high tech gadgets and power suit, were pummeling nameless women unconscious? Is that better than making men the expendable gender?

Yes. Yes it is. A criminal is a criminal. This mindset is why pretty girls get off way lighter than men for the exact same crime. Violence against women is terrible, but violence in general is terrible. Men can't escape abusive relationships because they're afraid to say anything due to social stigmas created by mindsets like this, it's damaging. I'm not comfortable throwing an entire half of the population under the bus in the name of being PC. But again, it's your dnd campaign, it's not like you're spreading some message to the masses or anything.

If they had names, I‘d be a lot more pacified, but they don’t.

That's... worrying.

 

[Cat on Mars]

There's no war stories. There are stories about people with power and people without it. One way to show it is the use of force; that's the meaning of war. A clash between two opposing forces isn't a story until there's a narrative and certain context to support it.
This applies to History and fiction.
Unless we know how FFXVI's world operates, we don't know what's the real scope of the story.

It's too common these days to see people analyzing trailers too much and passing judegement too soon. We don't really even know what the story will be about since a first trailer, as people have pointed out already, hardly is a true depiction of the wider story.

We are missing the key and we're looking at a dark room and trying to figure out what's in there peering through the keyhole.
Editing typos damn.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

First, let's consider the number of female main characters throughout the series. We have Terra, XI create-a-character, Lightning, and XIV create-a-character. We're looking at 2-4 female leads out of 16 games. That's only 25% or less depending on how one counts the MMOs. A fourth.

I mean... this is where it gets tricky. Because a lot of the woman you didn't mention in the FF games might as well be Co-leads of their games, if not the actual main character. Ashe in particular is more the "Main Character" of FFXII than Vaan is when you actually look at the story the game told and not the marketing for it. Aerith is more the lead of FFVIIR than Cloud is in my opinion. Garnet gets more character growth than Zidane does in FFIX in my opinion. FFX's game is more about Yuna than Tidus, as it it's squeal.

Like... I think it's a valid criticism to say that the SE marketing team thinks young male protagonists are the thing to market. But when you actually play the games and look at the kind of stories being told, it's a lot more mixed than that. Most FF games are less "one person is the main character" kind of games and a lot more "these characters are all co-leads for this story". And aside from two FF games (one an offshoot of a main FF title), the "co-leads" of FF games have all been mixed groups.

However, to see who the "main character" of the narrative is, you really have to get your hands on the game and actually play the thing. No amount of marketing will ever do a good job summing up what narrative is being told and what characters are actually focused on in the narrative. It's... pretty imposible to make snap-judgments about that kind of thing with just a very short teaser.

I also think there should be more attention placed on the different between the main character of the narrative and the character's pov the player experiences the story from. FFXII and FFX have good examples of this, where the player pov character is Vaan and Tidus, neither of who really know what they've gotten themselves wrapped up in. The actual main characters are of FFXII and FFX Ashe and Yuna as it's their decisions that the plot hinges on all the time. And really their stories that hold everyone else's together.

 

[Ite]

I mean... this is where it gets tricky. Because a lot of the woman you didn't mention in the FF games might as well be Co-leads of their games, if not the actual main character. Ashe in particular is more the "Main Character" of FFXII than Vaan is when you actually look at the story the game told and not the marketing for it. Aerith is more the lead of FFVIIR than Cloud is in my opinion. Garnet gets more character growth than Zidane does in FFIX in my opinion. FFX's game is more about Yuna than Tidus, as it it's squeal.

Like... I think it's a valid criticism to say that the SE marketing team thinks young male protagonists are the thing to market. But when you actually play the games and look at the kind of stories being told, it's a lot more mixed than that. Most FF games are less "one person is the main character" kind of games and a lot more "these characters are all co-leads for this story". And aside from two FF games (one an offshoot of a main FF title), the "co-leads" of FF games have all been mixed groups.

However, to see who the "main character" of the narrative is, you really have to get your hands on the game and actually play the thing. No amount of marketing will ever do a good job summing up what narrative is being told and what characters are actually focused on in the narrative. It's... pretty imposible to make snap-judgments about that kind of thing with just a very short teaser.

I also think there should be more attention placed on the different between the main character of the narrative and the character's pov the player experiences the story from. FFXII and FFX have good examples of this, where the player pov character is Vaan and Tidus, neither of who really know what they've gotten themselves wrapped up in. The actual main characters are of FFXII and FFX Ashe and Yuna as it's their decisions that the plot hinges on all the time. And really their stories that hold everyone else's together.

I appear to be alone in thinking that XII achieves a true ensemble cast, like VI, with no one character’s story taking main plot status over another’s (contrasted with Yuna, Ramza, or Cloud). There were times that I thought Ashe might heel-turn and become a villain, which speaks to the quality of XII’s character writing and representation.

@Makoeyes987 Arkham City did have Talia’s mooks, you’re right! I guess I’m hot off the heels of playing Arkham Knight, which (in addition to fridging yet more women, over half the women this time in fact) didn’t have any female mooks at all.

Again, nothing exists without context. Women representation in AAA games is sorely lacking, and the world in which we live has a long way to go in terms of justice for women, and I believe that the stories we tell inform our culture, and that it falls to storytellers to be conscientious of that.

I’m scrutinizing XVI in this way (despite being as excited as I have ever been by a new FF) not because I don’t believe FF has good women representation (historically it does) but because there isn’t much on display currently, as of this trailer. Of course I don’t mean to judge the game before I’ve played it. I’m just talking about what is in front of me, which is a 2 minute short film with a lot of clips, which hint at a larger story. The parts of the story we can see don’t name the women characters, don’t show us playable women characters, and the Japanese line implies that this takes a more medievalist approach to women’s lib than FFIX or FFT. In the context of coming after XV, it’s worth noting.

 

[Clement Rage]

Ite, you can do what you want in your own campaign. But it is worth considering if you're going to be someone that calls out sexism in other people's works that you're not holding your own to the same standards. You are treating the genders differently, which is sexism, because you don't want them to be in battle. Do you have any women players, by the way? What do they think of this?

When playing an Arkham game, how would you feel if the thugs weren’t all men? If you, as Batman, with your high tech gadgets and power suit, were pummeling nameless women unconscious? Is that better than making men the expendable gender?

Absolutely. It's treating them equally. Batman actually takes down Ra's killers less violently than the men, even though they're professional assassins and the men are mostly just thugs. This is one of the reasons I love Dirge, DG and WRO Trooprs both have women included with no distinction.
Bats isn't going around randomly beating people, they're attacking him.

It was a major turn off for me in games like Uncharted, Tomb Raider, and TLOU that the disposable henchpeople are all men.

I get it, it's hard. I make an effort to have gender balance in my own works, right down to the Shinra and Galbadian soldiers (and whenever this isn't present in someone else's works, which so far is everyone but me, I notice). Sometimes I catch myself treating them differently or reviewers do. I've certainly had some major fuckups in my time. Lic can attest to that.

But those thugs, those Shinra soldiers, those henchmen are representation. If it doesn't go all the way down, you're not really being completely representative.

No one is questioning that FF doesn't have amazing female characters.

Actually people were specifically questioning this. It's back on page...11, I think? There's a meme.

No one is saying that there shouldn't be female leads in FF, or more female characters. But people kept going 'this female character doesn't count because' which isn't being honest about this. We don't know anything about the female characters in the trailer yet, but they're already being dismissed as valid representation, despite the fact that we don't know anything about them. All that does is make it more difficult to write representative female characters, because they get so dissected relative to the male ones and held to impossible standards.

 

[Ite]

Please re-read my post, I literally brought it up to scrutinize it, I did it in good faith and inviting all due criticism. And I did it in response to someone presenting that paradigm as an avenue to feminist storytelling, to show that even good intentions can still be poisoned by sexist thinking, of which no one is completely free.

And in fact, I agree with your post completely.

There isn’t a clear path, there isn’t one true way, but can we at least agree that it’s not something to ignore?

 

[Odysseus]

@Clement Rage I remember you bringing that up back in one of your remake threads. I understand why the lack of variance in the Shinra Grunts bothered you now. I don't really remember if I ever commented on it, but sorry for being dismissive regardless.
...
DIRGE IS BEST COMP ENTRY

 

[looneymoon]

There's no such thing as a gender-less meta context, and because we live in a society, existing power structures based on gender makes a "non-sexist" piece of fiction impossible. The best we can do is look at how gender is used as a reflection of the values of those who create that fiction. The video game industry is by large, still a boy's club. The FF series definitely does its job to cater to that boy's club, no doubt. Despite that, it's also a series that I've had faith in for being considerate of its female player-base. I would even say that it's part of the series' core values. It wasn't that long ago that there was a stereotype that FF/JRPGs in general are games "for girls." Mind you, this was very much a Western stereotype (which..... you can intersect that conversation about the patriarchy and racism, "feminizing the orient" and blah blah blah). That's mostly died out, but you get the idea.

Even when I don't like an FF game, I can still appreciate a few of the characters, with the female characters often being the most likable. FF13 is the biggest example of this for me, personally. Frankly, there's not enough info on this game to make me doubt any of that specific rapport the series has built over its history.

A more worthwhile concern for me might be the fact that there's very few women (that we've heard of) in critical roles for this new game. But that's like..... not really a discussion that leads to anywhere interesting since none of us are part of the company This isn't really something that's a uniquely Square-Enix problem, either.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

You could make a trailer for FFXIII that doesn't pass the Bechdel Test though. Or probably FFX-2 for that matter. It all depends what clips you use. And we don't even know what "movie clips" will be available in the game yet.

The point of a teaser trailer isn't "here's all the minority representation this game does right!". It's "here's a new game with a new plot! We finally have a brand new FF game no one knows what to expect from!" without actually telling you what the plot is. This also isn't a trailer for a movie either. It's a trailer for a 40-60 hr game. And unless you want a trailer like the very last FFVIIR trailer we got that spoiled the whole thing, we're not going to see everything this game has to offer in the trailer. Have to save some surprises for when we actually get to play the thing right?

I have like... half a mid to pull up a video from Editing Is Everything, a YouTube channel dedicated to making trailers for movies in a totally different genre than what the movie actually was (okay, here's the one i'd put up). Because this whole discussion feels like people making judgment calls and predictions based on a purposely miss-ordered 1% of a game's playtime. And going "this thing might be bad in this game because of the 1% of it we saw".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

they had names, I‘d be a lot more pacified, but they don’t.

Do we even know the (presumably) main character dude's name right now? Like, other than "Joshua," there weren't a whole lot of names being thrown around in this trailer.

Also, Shiva is a named female character.

No one is questioning that FF doesn't have amazing female characters. The issue is ratio and timing. First, let's consider the number of female main characters throughout the series. We have Terra, XI create-a-character, Lightning, and XIV create-a-character. We're looking at 2-4 female leads out of 16 games. That's 25% or less depending on how one counts the MMOs. A fourth.

Others have already pointed out the consideration that arguably should be given to Ashe, Yuna, and the female characters of XI and XIV, so I won't delve in there, but you also left out FFIII.

There's probably also something worthwhile to be said for V having a larger number of female than male playable characters, as well as IX having us play as Dagger and Eiko no insignificant amount of the time. The case can easily be made that Zidane and Bartz are co-leads in much the same way as Vaan or Tidus.

 

[looneymoon]

I think there's a genuine point to the ratio criticism. As much as we can say Ashe and/or Yuna are the more important characters to their respective stories, you're still largely experiencing the world through Vaan/Tidus' field models. It's what sets Lightning apart.

One thing I really wanted while playing FF7R was to be able to freely change party members while exploring the map.

 

[Prism]

Regardless of if they’re the main leads or not, FF has had very iconic and well-written female characters (well, on par with the men at a minimum) in most of the entries. Looney makes a good point that it’s still through the lens of the protagonist, though.

It does seem like this discussion has taken a scope a bit larger than just the context of XVI, not that worthwhile words haven’t been said.