Final Fantasy XVI
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Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
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- Rosarian Shield
Unfortunately that also means no airships or crazy vehicles, I suppose...
The hype man
Some are speculating the buddy system might include more than Torgal. Remember the small dragon with Clive in one of the concept arts?
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ForceStealer
Double Growth
You'd think they would have learned that lesson with XV...
Maidenofwar
They/Them
Dog adventure! Dog adventure!
Super excite for dog adventure!
Super excite for dog adventure!
Fiz
Pro Adventurer
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- Eh?
This gives me some faith. However, only Clive being playable is really disappointing.
Nandemoyasan
Standing guard
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- Johnny
What I think worries me about this (although it is Yoshi P saying it who is a complete class act tbf), is that it’s the kind of thing that begs another question: “Will the story be any good?”
See, because my beef with the stories of FF games that I have not enjoyed up to this point was not “they did not deal with dark, mature enough themes,” but more along the lines of “their stories didn’t have any real dramatic substance.” I’m thinking Final Fantasy 2, Final Fantasy 3, Final Fantasy 5, and generally Final Fantasy 8-15. If the story falls apart to the point where the moments stop having any real impact (looking at you Ultimecia), then that makes the rest of the story bad by sheer value of the fact that stories take place over linear time that only goes forward from beginning to end.
Also, it the presentation itself is bad (10 and 13 thankyouverymuch), then no amount of high-concept wankery is gonna save it. Themes are one thing. The magic of any good story is in the telling of it.
See, because my beef with the stories of FF games that I have not enjoyed up to this point was not “they did not deal with dark, mature enough themes,” but more along the lines of “their stories didn’t have any real dramatic substance.” I’m thinking Final Fantasy 2, Final Fantasy 3, Final Fantasy 5, and generally Final Fantasy 8-15. If the story falls apart to the point where the moments stop having any real impact (looking at you Ultimecia), then that makes the rest of the story bad by sheer value of the fact that stories take place over linear time that only goes forward from beginning to end.
Also, it the presentation itself is bad (10 and 13 thankyouverymuch), then no amount of high-concept wankery is gonna save it. Themes are one thing. The magic of any good story is in the telling of it.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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No dramatic substance between... FFVIII to XV?
By your comparison and criticism, that means you think I, IV, and VI are... paragons of dramatic narrative effect?
Not sure how Ultimecia had no real impact but I am real confused by IX, X and XV there. Like, what?
By your comparison and criticism, that means you think I, IV, and VI are... paragons of dramatic narrative effect?
Not sure how Ultimecia had no real impact but I am real confused by IX, X and XV there. Like, what?
Fiz
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I find myself agreeing with both of you here. FF6, 7, 9, 10 and if you like MMO's 14; are on a different level to most of the series. Which is fine, I don't expect a series as long-running as FF to hit the ball out of the park every time. That's just not realistic.
However, I think as SE have cemented themselves at the business end of cinematic prestige games, that it's came at cost and I think they started to fall behind on both gameplay innovations and quality of storytelling, with a noticeable drop since FF12. Comparatively, FF is not impacting the market like it used to, and accounting for market changes, it isn't selling comparatively to where it used to. Keeping in mind, the market is bigger now.
FF used to pump out icons, they were game changers that helped shape the future of the industry. And now it isn't, because lots of studios are able to create really high quality cinematic experiences, and other studios are far less risk averse and doing it better.
I look at FF16 and while they've certainly stepped FF into something new for FF, it isn't coming across as fresh to me. Obviously this is all presumption, but judging what we have seen it's like XVI is trying to be like the games that are performing better than FF, but without bringing anything new to the table. It isn't seeming to want to deliver on something we need, either.
Do we need another single player action RPG? No, that market is really over saturated.
Do we need another cool looking sword wielding white guy? No, they are really, really over saturated.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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I'm not sure why you think FF isn't impacting the market today. FFXV is one of the best selling FFs of all time, with over 10 million in sales, not to mention it's accolades. It's literally one of the most popular JRPGs, and then you have FFXIV, the most successful MMORPG of all time.
Like, that's iconic. Nevermind just FFVII, you also have Kingdom Hearts. That franchise cannot be overstated at all. It's again, one of the most popular and wildly successful ARPG crossovers.
I mean, you cannot say that FF or S-E are not iconic or "impacting the market like it used to." If anything, it's making more iconic and memorable impacts in the video game space than before in the late 90s and early 2000s. JRPGs are always a niche genre within video games but S-E is at the top of the pack for a reason. Like, you'd have to ignore the past 10 or more years to say that.
Like, that's iconic. Nevermind just FFVII, you also have Kingdom Hearts. That franchise cannot be overstated at all. It's again, one of the most popular and wildly successful ARPG crossovers.
I mean, you cannot say that FF or S-E are not iconic or "impacting the market like it used to." If anything, it's making more iconic and memorable impacts in the video game space than before in the late 90s and early 2000s. JRPGs are always a niche genre within video games but S-E is at the top of the pack for a reason. Like, you'd have to ignore the past 10 or more years to say that.
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Nandemoyasan
Standing guard
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- Johnny
I’ll go on if you want me to, Makoeyes. Just remember, you acted like you wanted to know my thoughts on the subject, so this is the result. No complaining. 
FF1, 4, 6 and 7 are the standouts in the series as far as storytelling because they adhere to two basic principles well; they are simple and consistent when it comes to thematic and dramatic elements, and their presentation never puts me off my popcorn too badly. From start to finish, they stay rooted in the themes they establish immediately, and each development in the story seems to flow logically from the ones that preceded it (give or take a random space flea from nowhere once in a while). They have balance.
Final Fantasy 2 and 3 attempt stories that are beyond the scope of the media on which they are confined; they’d make great SNES or PSX games, in terms of their presentation, but the NES just strangles their stories to death. Final Fantasy V has a bit different of a problem in that it never seems interested in being more than the mold on which it is based (the NES games). What was Bartz’ reaction to finding out he’s from another bloody dimension? “Wow. Ok back to killing the Tree Wizard Guy now.” What do we learn about Lenna or Faris beyond their shared history and the surface elements (Princess Pure Pureness and Lady Pirate Who Pretends to Be A Man)? It’s all way too chewing gummy.
Meanwhile, on the other side, FF8 and 9 are almost great, in my opinion. Their world builds are massive and intricate, and the dramatic elements are powerful; however, their plots break down too many times during the narrative (They were all orphans together? Time compression? What? Ok I don’t care let’s just finish this dumb game. Wait Kuja and Zidane are alien genetic constructs intended to populate a new world that will destroy our— oh come on, geez), until at the end of each I’m left with the feeling that the story doesn’t even know what it’s about anymore.
As for X and XII-XV, you can go ahead and tell me sales numbers all darn day and night; it just means the thing is popular, not that it’s automatically what I myself (who has my opinions that I get to have, merci), would call a good story. You come off like they’re your sacred cows a bit and I’m frankly a little anxious to say this but it’s never stopped me before. Don’t be angry with me for having an opinion.
Their presentations are atrocious. Tidus can have as annoying a voice actor as the day is long, fine, I could accept that. But HE NEVER STOPS NARRATING. It’s irritating and makes me feel patronized. I am capable of remembering the story up to now without a constant recap every five minutes. Not to mention, the story (such as it is) never ends up feeling like it has anything to say about life other than “it’s rough being a teenager angry at your celebrity dad” or “it’s rough being a member of a batshit religious order” which are respectively each in their own ways kind of self-indulgent and off-putting, or too far outside any kind of relatable experience to be relevant. Yeah I’m sure it is but I’m a lower-class person who was born into a lower-class family in the Midwest, and I have trouble mustering the sympathy, sorry. Add into that, that the in game cinematics made with the “Emotion Engine” (incredibly douchey “art for arts sake” name for it too) come off as if I’m in a room with aliens trying to learn how to act human, and …woof.
FFXII has a similar problem in the characters of Vaan and Penelo (who were not originally intended to be the mains, from what I gather). This time they tried to tick the box that they thought people like me would respond to more by making Vaan a lower-class person scraping by in an occupied country, but his characterizations need some work. (Neither here nor there but why doesn’t anybody in Rabanaste wear a proper shirt???)
From the moment he knows that Basch did not in fact kill his brother, he needs to grow a pair of round and curlies and stop whinging about it.
Frankly I’m not too familar with XIII and XV because what little I can gather from watching YouTube videos, reading plot synopses, and talking to people who’ve played them makes me think that this brain rot in the FF writing room has only gotten worse. I don’t find Lightning unlikable because she’s a lady; I find her bland and pandery. There were far more challenging and risky things they could have done with a female soldier main character who is not an amnesiac Half-Esper.
And as for Noctis and Co., it all just seems really bland and directionless to me, and it also seems to harp on many of the tropes which were already examined in FFX and XII.
Listen very carefully because not everyone spends all their time thinking about a JRPG series that’s been running since 1987, and I’m paraphrasing Nicholas Meyer:
“Nobody cares what the story is about, nobody cares who’s in the story, nobody cares what the story is called. They only really care about one thing; is the story any good?”
As an example of a good story?
I’d say that the first thing that pops into my head, when I think of a good high-fantasy genre story for FF, is something like Final Fantasy IV. It never strays too far outside its scope for long, the characters come off as solid professionals trying to get through their day at work, they have adult relationships that don’t have this stupid “will they or won’t they” garbage going on, there are dramatic consequences for the actions taken by them and their colleagues, and the theme (virtue born from a bloodstained past) carries all the way from the beginning to the end, without ever leaving me thinking “hey I’d like to know more about what happened with x.” 1 and 6 leave some holes in their respective plots (1 more than 6), but 4 feels complete. It feels solid and even a bit profound.
So there, that’s the answer I came up with to you asking me “How can you think these thinks which you think? Do you even think, bro?”
yeah it turns out I think a lot lol
FF1, 4, 6 and 7 are the standouts in the series as far as storytelling because they adhere to two basic principles well; they are simple and consistent when it comes to thematic and dramatic elements, and their presentation never puts me off my popcorn too badly. From start to finish, they stay rooted in the themes they establish immediately, and each development in the story seems to flow logically from the ones that preceded it (give or take a random space flea from nowhere once in a while). They have balance.
Final Fantasy 2 and 3 attempt stories that are beyond the scope of the media on which they are confined; they’d make great SNES or PSX games, in terms of their presentation, but the NES just strangles their stories to death. Final Fantasy V has a bit different of a problem in that it never seems interested in being more than the mold on which it is based (the NES games). What was Bartz’ reaction to finding out he’s from another bloody dimension? “Wow. Ok back to killing the Tree Wizard Guy now.” What do we learn about Lenna or Faris beyond their shared history and the surface elements (Princess Pure Pureness and Lady Pirate Who Pretends to Be A Man)? It’s all way too chewing gummy.
Meanwhile, on the other side, FF8 and 9 are almost great, in my opinion. Their world builds are massive and intricate, and the dramatic elements are powerful; however, their plots break down too many times during the narrative (They were all orphans together? Time compression? What? Ok I don’t care let’s just finish this dumb game. Wait Kuja and Zidane are alien genetic constructs intended to populate a new world that will destroy our— oh come on, geez), until at the end of each I’m left with the feeling that the story doesn’t even know what it’s about anymore.
As for X and XII-XV, you can go ahead and tell me sales numbers all darn day and night; it just means the thing is popular, not that it’s automatically what I myself (who has my opinions that I get to have, merci), would call a good story. You come off like they’re your sacred cows a bit and I’m frankly a little anxious to say this but it’s never stopped me before. Don’t be angry with me for having an opinion.
Their presentations are atrocious. Tidus can have as annoying a voice actor as the day is long, fine, I could accept that. But HE NEVER STOPS NARRATING. It’s irritating and makes me feel patronized. I am capable of remembering the story up to now without a constant recap every five minutes. Not to mention, the story (such as it is) never ends up feeling like it has anything to say about life other than “it’s rough being a teenager angry at your celebrity dad” or “it’s rough being a member of a batshit religious order” which are respectively each in their own ways kind of self-indulgent and off-putting, or too far outside any kind of relatable experience to be relevant. Yeah I’m sure it is but I’m a lower-class person who was born into a lower-class family in the Midwest, and I have trouble mustering the sympathy, sorry. Add into that, that the in game cinematics made with the “Emotion Engine” (incredibly douchey “art for arts sake” name for it too) come off as if I’m in a room with aliens trying to learn how to act human, and …woof.
FFXII has a similar problem in the characters of Vaan and Penelo (who were not originally intended to be the mains, from what I gather). This time they tried to tick the box that they thought people like me would respond to more by making Vaan a lower-class person scraping by in an occupied country, but his characterizations need some work. (Neither here nor there but why doesn’t anybody in Rabanaste wear a proper shirt???)
From the moment he knows that Basch did not in fact kill his brother, he needs to grow a pair of round and curlies and stop whinging about it.
Frankly I’m not too familar with XIII and XV because what little I can gather from watching YouTube videos, reading plot synopses, and talking to people who’ve played them makes me think that this brain rot in the FF writing room has only gotten worse. I don’t find Lightning unlikable because she’s a lady; I find her bland and pandery. There were far more challenging and risky things they could have done with a female soldier main character who is not an amnesiac Half-Esper.
And as for Noctis and Co., it all just seems really bland and directionless to me, and it also seems to harp on many of the tropes which were already examined in FFX and XII.
Listen very carefully because not everyone spends all their time thinking about a JRPG series that’s been running since 1987, and I’m paraphrasing Nicholas Meyer:
“Nobody cares what the story is about, nobody cares who’s in the story, nobody cares what the story is called. They only really care about one thing; is the story any good?”
As an example of a good story?
I’d say that the first thing that pops into my head, when I think of a good high-fantasy genre story for FF, is something like Final Fantasy IV. It never strays too far outside its scope for long, the characters come off as solid professionals trying to get through their day at work, they have adult relationships that don’t have this stupid “will they or won’t they” garbage going on, there are dramatic consequences for the actions taken by them and their colleagues, and the theme (virtue born from a bloodstained past) carries all the way from the beginning to the end, without ever leaving me thinking “hey I’d like to know more about what happened with x.” 1 and 6 leave some holes in their respective plots (1 more than 6), but 4 feels complete. It feels solid and even a bit profound.
So there, that’s the answer I came up with to you asking me “How can you think these thinks which you think? Do you even think, bro?”
yeah it turns out I think a lot lol
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I mean, those are fair thoughts. Fair enough. I suppose we all have our preferences 
I'll admit, this made me LOL
I'll admit, this made me LOL
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
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- Rosarian Shield
A bit from the latest Yoshida interview (Famitsu)
"Final Fantasy is just a name stuck to a game that we made thinking "This is the best game", and if there is no need to be the successor, then there is no need to flatter the predecessor. If we make a game that we think is the best game, then that makes it "Final Fantasy" - Kitase.
FF is their latest ultimate fantasy of what the best game should be.
I think pretending to be in a vacuum is what made XIII be criticized in the first place. The world was moving on with more open exploration and agency, you can't simply ignore how the outside is doing and that also counts for combat.
Yoshida mentioned in the interview how he thinks realistic graphics and turn-based combat are not a great combination and I completely agree.
"Final Fantasy is just a name stuck to a game that we made thinking "This is the best game", and if there is no need to be the successor, then there is no need to flatter the predecessor. If we make a game that we think is the best game, then that makes it "Final Fantasy" - Kitase.
FF is their latest ultimate fantasy of what the best game should be.
I think pretending to be in a vacuum is what made XIII be criticized in the first place. The world was moving on with more open exploration and agency, you can't simply ignore how the outside is doing and that also counts for combat.
Yoshida mentioned in the interview how he thinks realistic graphics and turn-based combat are not a great combination and I completely agree.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
That's the genre defying freedom and creativity I enjoy.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
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- Rosarian Shield
- Their focus for FFXVI was; "If we make what we think is the best FF, then that IS FF".
- They thought about what FF was to them, and they came to a simple conclusion; "It's about delivering the best story and game experience".
- For Yoshida (also mentioned in other interviews), when he played FFI, he was amazed by the theatrical composition of the production, timing of the script, drama, sounds, and how all of this created the ultimate game experience.
- He thought that this and Chocobos/Moogle is what made FF an FF game. And he felt that this element was essential for FFXVI.
reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/vi43qa/full_famitsu_interview_translation_warning_its/
- They thought about what FF was to them, and they came to a simple conclusion; "It's about delivering the best story and game experience".
- For Yoshida (also mentioned in other interviews), when he played FFI, he was amazed by the theatrical composition of the production, timing of the script, drama, sounds, and how all of this created the ultimate game experience.
- He thought that this and Chocobos/Moogle is what made FF an FF game. And he felt that this element was essential for FFXVI.
reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/vi43qa/full_famitsu_interview_translation_warning_its/
JBedford
Pro Adventurer
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- JBed
Kitase's definition of what makes a Final Fantasy game sure is something that wouldn't get me interested in a series. "Games we think are the best". I play series because I want to play similar games. If I want something different and I like a dev I look at their other games.
Turn-based may not be as popular anymore. But this isn't a serious thought of people who enjoy turn-based games. Although I really don't care about realistic graphics either, so eh.
This is surely just something devs think about when making a game, not what people think when actually playing a game? I played FFX. I played LOTR: The Third Age. I played Lost Odyssey. Yakuza: Like a Dragon exists. Sure there's the "stand in lines and take it in turns to attack" which is funny to think about, but like... so? When playing a game I'm not thinking about that, I'm thinking "if he crits he might kill me but he's gotta be nearly dead, right? one more attack might end the fight".
Turn-based may not be as popular anymore. But this isn't a serious thought of people who enjoy turn-based games. Although I really don't care about realistic graphics either, so eh.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
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- Rosarian Shield
It looks silly because turn-based isn't realistic or how real characters would behave in a battle, it's definitely a better match for stylized games, specially now that cutscenes and gameplay are so tightly integrated.
Edit:
LOL you can see the wolf alongside Clive on the middle of this screen!
https://www.resetera.com/threads/fi...ssion-predictions-thread.287810/post-88885176
Edit:
LOL you can see the wolf alongside Clive on the middle of this screen!
https://www.resetera.com/threads/fi...ssion-predictions-thread.287810/post-88885176
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KindOfBlue
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I mean I can’t think of anything worse than a studio soulessly churning out the same game with every installment, this ain’t Call of Duty or NBA 2K lol. Long as they’re passionate about their work, it’s fine by me. If I don’t like something they put out, I’ll just stick with what I like or find something else. I know people don’t like to hear that a new installment in a series they like isn’t for them, some may even feel betrayed. But I think we’d all benefit from being comfortable with saying “this thing isn’t for me but it’s fine” and moving on with our lives rather than lamenting that a series we like isn’t what it used to be. It happens, people change. It’s life.
Personally I’ve become a lot less concerned with whether a creative’s new works are as good or impactful as the best work they put out during their peak years because ultimately, why does it matter? Final Fantasy’s cemented itself in video game history in a way that half of the games out there never will, at this point Square’s just finishing up side quests. Would it be nice if every FF was like my favorite, FF7? Not if it meant Square’s creativity was limited to just regurgitating the game that happened to tickle my fancies the most. Variety is the spice of life, and if something isn’t quite up to your tastes, it’s okay.
Nandemoyasan
Standing guard
- AKA
- Johnny
My issue was that I want the story to be worth spending 30+ hours to get through, is all.
I did say that I didn't care for FFV's Story all that much; as a game, however, it (and FF3, 8 and 9*) are infinitely superior to something like Final Fantasy 2 (which is really just a hot mess all around).
The story is a big part of any JRPG, but I also get a kick out of grinding baddies for coins like any decent gamer yknow.
*Side Note but I'm actually starting to get into 12 these days too...the PC Remaster anyhow (yknow, Zodiac Age).
I did say that I didn't care for FFV's Story all that much; as a game, however, it (and FF3, 8 and 9*) are infinitely superior to something like Final Fantasy 2 (which is really just a hot mess all around).
The story is a big part of any JRPG, but I also get a kick out of grinding baddies for coins like any decent gamer yknow.
*Side Note but I'm actually starting to get into 12 these days too...the PC Remaster anyhow (yknow, Zodiac Age).
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
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https://wccftech.com/final-fantasy-...stic-graphics-and-turn-based-combat-dont-fit/
Just seems like a sensible decision tbh.
Just seems like a sensible decision tbh.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I don't care all that much whether this game is turn-based or not (the control of only one character is my bigger complaint), but I still disagree with the premise that a turn-based system and realistic graphics cannot mix.
Fiz
Pro Adventurer
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- Eh?
FF14, sure. But generally, SE isn't in the position it was with FF and other studios are outperforming them in a way I don't think they should be.
For example, for studios pushing the industry to new heights, Naughty Dog are really where it's at - or at least, it feels like it.
In terms of IP's; if FF was pulling its weight comparable to how it did in the 90's and 00's should be pulling its weight alongside games such as TLoU, The Witcher, or Horizon. If you disagree with that, then fine. But, I think it should be.
A big part of my issue here is that I look at the cast, and they just look so cookie cutter and run-of-the-mill. If I google "fantasy rpg character", they look like half of the generic characters you see. Clive does look a bit like Noctis, like he went to a salon and got a bit of a makeover, and even his unique characteristics are a bit...
When it was pointed out, I just can't... unsee this. It's like, the same visual design concept. Chunky shoulder and leg armour, a flowing cape, a burning sword and burning, molten arm.
And, even though ToA isn't exactly pushing originality there, I think Alphen might actually look better. At least his armour is actually armour instead of the whole stick them in cloth, with a few fashionable armoured bits here and there that don't protect the bits that really need protecting, then add some fashionable jaggedy bits.
The latter is a real pet peeve of mine at the best of times.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Again, in what way? FFXV is legit the most successful single player FF in terms of raw sales and saw the strongest initial sales and pre-orders for a modern FF release. FFVII-R came close but it was only for the PS4, so of course it wouldn't reach the same numbers. I don't know what you're basing that assessment of their contemporary performance on, but while S-E was the vanguard of bringing JRPGs mainstream in the west, that didn't make them anywhere close to the likes of other larger studios. Not even in the 90s.
I don't think S-E was ever a huge or "mainstream" studio. Blizzard, Ubisoft, EA, etc are always going to be "bigger" than them because they're more mainstream and release games for genres with more wider appeal. The only way SE would get "bigger" is by expanding in that direction. And considering again, the broad appeal and pop culture resonance their titles carry, like FF, Kingdom Hearts, Dragon Quest, etc, SE isn't being "outperformed" in any way that's unexpected or distressing.
And I see no resemblance between Clive and...whoever that guy is. LOL, like, I don't even know how you can seriously compare the two. Their only similarity is "fire." The second guy leans hard into the anime aesthetic. Clive looks nothing like that. He's stylized, but he carries very little of the second one's anime design in regards to facial features, outfit, color, etc. His resemblance to Noctis is.... almost nonexistent, save for the hair color.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Even proportionally, FF sales are up far and wide.
The only difference now is there are other JRPGs. It's no longer just S-E and Sega. And that's to be expected. S-E opened the door, and JRPGs are now far more popular.
The only difference now is there are other JRPGs. It's no longer just S-E and Sega. And that's to be expected. S-E opened the door, and JRPGs are now far more popular.
Fiz
Pro Adventurer
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- Eh?
Yes, thats exactly what I'm referring to.
In fairness, maybe if you haven't played that game it might not be quite so obvious. But the visual ques are there. Anyway, thats Alphen from Tales of Arise. Obviously I wasn't referring to fidelity, Tales has a more cartoony aesthetic. But the concept behind the two characters designs is very similar; and it isn't just fire. The armour designs follow similar patterns, and the gimmick is the same;
Both possess a powerful fire spirit within them that give them great power, this presents its presence as a firey, moulten arm and sword. The lead female in that game also possesses a magical force within her, that acts as a direct counter to Alphens fire spirit. If Jill, as some have theorised, possesses Shiva and is the love interest, I swear to god, my head will explode because ToA was criticised for being cliche with that hook.