Final Fantasy XVI

[Makoeyes987]

“I believe that with Final Fantasy XVI, we weave together a variety of peoples and cultures set in this kind of sweeping fantasy narrative and world, and one that we strived to create with care and respect,” Yosida answered through translator Michael-Christopher Koji-Fox. “We hope that when players finally are able to take up the game in their own hands, that they will be able to see what we’ve aimed for and will hopefully ultimately be able to connect with that unique experience.”

Yeah, that's... a focus-tested PR response. If they had said that first, there probably would have been no problem and people would've assumed Titan's dominant was a PoC since his artwork certainly makes him look like one.

However, all this does is drop them further into the Interdimensional Rift. I don't know what other cultures or peoples are in the world building of the world. I think S-E certainly got what the issue was after the fact; the question caught them unaware at the time. So now they know they have to be delicate.

Such a shame in the design. Like I don't understand how they fucked up like this after coming from XIV.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah, that's... a focus-tested PR response. If they had said that first, there probably would have been no problem and people would've assumed Titan's dominant was a PoC since his artwork certainly makes him look like one.

However, all this does is drop them further into the Interdimensional Rift. I don't know what other cultures or peoples are in the world building of the world. I think S-E certainly got what the issue was after the fact; the question caught them unaware at the time. So now they know they have to be delicate.

Such a shame in the design. Like I don't understand how they fucked up like this after coming from XIV.

Yeah, though that “over-inclusion” line, which was separate from the main quote, will likely garner Yoshida some more (albeit deserved) roasting for how inane it is.

 

[hui43210]

These previews and interviews make me feel so odd about the game for lack of a better term. I get that every FF is different, but they're hammering that point home to the point of absurdity.

"This game will be like GOW, not FF! The world is ending so no bright colors, no Blitzball, no fishing, no party members, life is depressing so this will be too! POC? That's far out! And don't you dare call this a JRPG!"

Ok, so as someone who's favorite game franchise is FF, why should I buy a PS5 for a game that wants to reject the rest of the series?

"uh"

In short, I feel like this info drop yesterday really has left me kind of sour on the game. Wasn't expecting that.

 

[Theozilla]

The “please don’t call it a JRPG” thing has been kinda taken out of context and actually kinda interesting in-context since it was Yoshida talking about the mixed-feeling Japanese devs in general originally had about the term and how “othering” it made some feel (while also acknowledging how the term used far more positively today).
Here’s some other comments on the topic that discuss the matter well

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1630639953259446278

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1630648282274996225

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1630774802796666883

Overall I think excerpt from one the interviews puts the FFXVI’s devs mindset well.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1630670268443111428

And the idea that Yoshida doesn’t care about or is trying to reject the legacy of the FF franchise is kinda ridiculous (especially if one takes a glance at FFXIV and sees how much of a tribute it is to the franchise as a whole)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1630690991882600449

And yeah sure Yoshida may be laying on the “FFXVI is so much darker” a bit thick, but FFXVI also being the first Mature rated numbered FF game isn’t something to completely disregard either. (also I think Yoshida can be kinda jokey/snarky/facetious as an interviewie and that doesn’t always translate well to text transcripts)


And hey, I am also sad about FFXVI not having directly playable/controllable party members/characters, it’s an aspect of the single-player FFs that I really value. However, as a huge fan of FFXIV (and Crisis Core) I also wouldn’t try to claim there only being a single-player character in FFXVI makes it somehow unable to succeed as a valid FF entry.

 

[cold_spirit]

I really enjoyed DevilNeverCry's video on XVI. As their name suggests, they're a huge fan of the DMC series, so their background knowledge results in a great combat breakdown.

Really the only misfire here for me is the studio's comments and stance on XVI's representation issue. They aren't engaging with the criticism, which is sad to see. I understand that the game is all but finished, just working out bugs now, so going back to the drawing board is not an option. But I'd still like to see something like "That was a blind spot for us, sorry, we'll work to address that in the future." Displaying genuine self-reflection will go a lot further than sweeping it under the rug.

Regarding Yoshi-P's dislike of the term "JRPG", I've seen some low-key racist responses from fans on this. Things like "we'll stop calling them JRPGs when your games stop featuring boy bands" and "what should we call it then? A RPGMIJ? (role-playing game made in Japan)?" And these comments are getting hundreds of likes! Like, this isn't a joke, someone from the gaming industry in Japan is telling you that the term "JRPG" has negative connotations. Just sit down and listen. Think critically about their perspective. You have no right to tear them down.

We don't call them "western action adventures" because "western" is the norm. Developers in Japan want their games to be treated with that same level of dignity.

It's maddening I tell you.

 

[JBedford]

Yes, we do call them western role-playing games.

No it's not racist.

JRPGs are called that way because it refers to a style of RPG that originated in Japan.

 

[Theozilla]

While WRPG may see some usage, I think it’s kinda dishonest to pretend the term WRPG is anywhere nearly as ubiquitous as JRPG in usage. WRPGs are far more often referred to and treated as simply default “RPGs” than JRPGs are, and to claim there are zero elements of “otherizing” in the history of the latter term’s usage is factually incorrect.

 

[cold_spirit]

Those of us outside of Japan don't get to decide what terminology is problematic within Japan.

Just because westerns don't mind the term "WRPG" doesn't mean Japanese developers need to be okay with "JRPG". It's a western label that carries connotations they want to avoid. Again, someone from Japan who lived through the history is trying to share with you their perspective. Don't overwrite that.

 

[Lulcielid]

Combat looks solid but I don't see it getting anywhere near half as depth as DMC even with one dev from that series in the lead design.

Ability cooldown? Unncesary kneecap on action combat.

Stagger? If this mechanique is going to become a stapple moving forward then they should rethink and evolved it to be more than just "enemy gets downed and becomes vulnerable for free extra damage". It's wild that XIII still has the better Stagger system, at least in XIII enemies would still retaliate while staggered, VIIR and now XVI are a downgrade.

 

[Nandemoyasan]

To be objective about it, the whole idea of turn-based, party-based RPGs has been beat to death. Yoshi+Co could be onto something here. I mean, just **how many** of these types of games have come out since FF7 released back in (checks notes) January 1997?

It has been done, deconstructed, reconstructed, parodied, played straight, and every which way but loose, we have played turn based party based RPGs. It could be that FF can only go forward by taking a new approach. That's a fair assessment to make.

I still think it's weird that he didn't just say "we didn't want to address issues of race cuz we didn't feel competent/confident enough to write about it." That seems to be the issue at hand, but when you doll it up with a bunch of corporate doublespeak, it just sounds like they're trying to tiptoe around it.

Not that I'd expect the culture that gave us The Tale Of Prince Genji to ever get straight to the point, heh.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Personally, I always considered the JRPG thing the same way Westerners use “anime” to refer specifically to Japanese cartoons while in Japan “anime” refers to cartoons in general, so I never gave it much thought beyond that.

Seeing Yoshida’s thoughts on the matter is interesting in light of people’s concerns that FF16 will stray too far from what FF is “supposed” to be, because I imagine that very sentiment harkens back to why he may not like being pigeonholed by the term “JRPG” in the first place.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think if nothing else, XVI (once again) challenges the preconceived notions and boxes some fans have tried to fit "Final Fantasy" into, which is in fact actively opposed by the writers who helm and manage the franchise.

And I think that's a great thing. "Fantasy has no limits" isn't just a cute tagline they came up with.

 

[Lex]

Yes, we do call them western role-playing games.

No it's not racist.

JRPGs are called that way because it refers to a style of RPG that originated in Japan.

That might be all you see it as, but Yoshi-P's point still stands and it's down to the Japanese devs to decide if they like a term or not.

"JRPG" for a very long time referred to FF and similar titles and there was a long long period where it was used in a derogatory way. As a huge fan of all types of RPG's and their associated fandoms, I remember very clearly how turn-based or ATB-based games were scoffed at and mocked, and JRPG became synonymous with "anime game I'm not touching because anime". There are whole swathes of people who refuse to go near games that are considered to be JRPG's.

And in fact it was during this period that people started saying "western RPG" to refer to things like Dragon Age. The term "western RPG" was created so that people could plainly state "not a JRPG" because "JRPG" was seen as a bad thing in some circles. But it all falls apart as soon as you consider games like Elden Ring or the Souls series which are developed in Japan and nobody would consider calling them JRPG's.

The term JRPG became popular in the late 90's via old magazine video game journalism and initially it wasn't negative. It became negative with time and was an easy way for closed-minded gamers to simply state distaste for a style of game or atmosphere they had no interest in. As time went on people started mocking the genre, and now we've looped back around to it being a fairly neutral term because most seasoned players recognise the value that genre has brought to gaming in general.

Regardless, I think it's perfectly valid for a developer to call it out as being pigeon-holed into a genre they don't class as existing or even think about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Anyone remember G4TV?

Adam Sessler?

The shitty reviews he gave to every FF, KH, and JRPG that featured on their show?

Like, it's very real the amount of hate and dismissal JRPGs had to endure throughout the late 90s and early 2000s. Hell it's why there was a period JRPGs tried to stop being "JRPGs" for awhile. I think it's s a very legitimate criticism Yoshi P brings up.

 

[JBedford]

I think I mostly agree with everyone here. There's absolutely nothing wrong in anything Yoshida said and his sentiment is understandable. His initial interaction with the term JRPG was as a distinction that appeared to look down on the RPGs made being made in Japan and so was soured to the term. Also he doesn't like feeling boxed in by people's different expectations of the game (of what an FF is, of what a JRPG is, etc.)

Some of the responses I've read online have been pretty bad though. In all of this the thing that's been made most clear to me is that there are many people online who think a JRPG is literally a Japanese RPG, failing to understand it's a genre like French house or Chinese food. I thought people were just trying to be smartarses.

Fifteen years ago western RPGs were landing on console and were popular. WRPGs were a PC thing previously and had a separate audience. The distinction of the two branches of the genre felt necessitated. Though this was also at a time where JRPGs (and the Japanese video game industry in general) weren't doing too hot.

Different genres for different tastes. It's not the only genre people look down on (e.g. hack and slash), it just happens to have a country association in its name. People equally criticised the west's obsession with "grey and brown FPSs" at the time, but it didn't necessitate a genre.

Also I can't really be that mad at people looking down on anime. I think most people who watch anime would admit they enjoy it in spite of the embarassing tropes. JRPGs aren't anime games by definition, but since the genre's saturated by Japanese games the style is ubiquitous.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

From my understanding: Per the Nico Nico dictionary (which I've found is pretty reliable in documenting JP internet things), Japanese devs like Yoshi-P who are in-the-know about the west are not weary of the term "JRPG" because of the term itself, but rather the baggage that comes with the term because of an interview from over a decade ago where a high profile western dev dished out trash talked.

 

[Wol]

Words will always carry connotations (good or bad depending on the person) and are necessary to categorize. RPGs made in Japan will most likely reflect japanese culture, western RPGs respectively, putting them in the same sack wouldn't be truthtful to their characteristics. That doesn't mean words can't lead to generalizations, because there always the exception to the rule.

----------------------

From Dengeki, apparently the Tutorial area in Rosaria.

 

[Wol]

'Final Fantasy XVI' Devs Reveal Why Easy Mode Was Never an Option

Producer Naoki Yoshida, Director Hiroshi Takai, and Combat Director Ryota Suzuki spill the beans on 2023's most anticipated RPG.

www.inverse.com

Great interview!

"What's the genre of the game? It's Final Fantasy."

 

[ForceStealer]

To be objective about it, the whole idea of turn-based, party-based RPGs has been beat to death. Yoshi+Co could be onto something here. I mean, just **how many** of these types of games have come out since FF7 released back in (checks notes) January 1997?

Action adventure games, meanwhile, there's some unexplored territory

As for JRPGs, obviously Yoshi-P can feel anyway he does about it, but the twitter discourse is too far as usual imo. I was around for the "7th generation" discourse and several generations before that and I never personally noted the term itself being used uniquely derogatorily. Now there were obviously people who didn't like them and made that clear, but I never remember seeing JRPG as shorthand for "bad game," or even lesser RPG. It always just referred to a style of game, like CRPGs did, which were also distinct from the more broadly labeled "western RPGs." I mean JRPGs have long been my preferred genre, and I never shied away from the term, it was descriptive. Meanwhile I was likely equally dismissive of FPSes that all looked the same.
Now, I have always pushed back against the idea that a "JRPG" can only be a game made from Japan. From the same purists that blow a blood vessel anytime someone refers to Avatar as an anime. I think JRPG encapsulates a set of parameters/commonalities that games made anywhere can exhibit (Child of Light, a million indies), just as much as an RPG made in Japan can not fall into the category. (Souls, I'd argue the MMOs, possibly XVI )
I guess what I'm getting is that while I can totally understand Japanese devs feeling pigeonholed by the term, and remembering discourse from a time when the genre was struggling, I think twitter is characteristically jumping the gun to label it racist to dislike/treat unfairly a genre simply because that genre is named or associated with a particular country/people. What if you don't like KPop? Anime? Falafel? There was "literally a whole decade where white people used it as a slur?" Come on now.
What Jbedford said, I guess

 

[Wol]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/11jy05f

Hypest interview: https://www.well-played.com.au/we-f...ith-business-unit-iii-over-final-fantasy-xvi/

you can revisit areas after the time-skip and see how they've changed.

 

[HeyWhyNot?]

I mean, in a time of 'that bean curd race' and 'we nuked them and then they became a *real* country' being what you'd see if you turned your TV to a game review show, I feel like focusing solely on the minutiae of the actual term JRPG kinda misses the forest for the trees.


Like, yeah, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the term but I can see how people who came up through that period could feel 'other-ed' by it.

 

[Ite]

Steph Sterling with the sensible take as always

 

[Theozilla]

Very well made video essay/editorial, and I think largely matches my sentiments as well.

And wow that Phil Fish panel clip was egregiously nasty.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And look at where Fish is today.

Schadenfreude at its finest.

 

[Lulcielid]