Final Fantasy XVI

[Nandemoyasan]

To be objective about it, the whole idea of turn-based, party-based RPGs has been beat to death. Yoshi+Co could be onto something here. I mean, just **how many** of these types of games have come out since FF7 released back in (checks notes) January 1997?

It has been done, deconstructed, reconstructed, parodied, played straight, and every which way but loose, we have played turn based party based RPGs. It could be that FF can only go forward by taking a new approach. That's a fair assessment to make.

I still think it's weird that he didn't just say "we didn't want to address issues of race cuz we didn't feel competent/confident enough to write about it." That seems to be the issue at hand, but when you doll it up with a bunch of corporate doublespeak, it just sounds like they're trying to tiptoe around it.

Not that I'd expect the culture that gave us The Tale Of Prince Genji to ever get straight to the point, heh.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Personally, I always considered the JRPG thing the same way Westerners use “anime” to refer specifically to Japanese cartoons while in Japan “anime” refers to cartoons in general, so I never gave it much thought beyond that.

Seeing Yoshida’s thoughts on the matter is interesting in light of people’s concerns that FF16 will stray too far from what FF is “supposed” to be, because I imagine that very sentiment harkens back to why he may not like being pigeonholed by the term “JRPG” in the first place.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think if nothing else, XVI (once again) challenges the preconceived notions and boxes some fans have tried to fit "Final Fantasy" into, which is in fact actively opposed by the writers who helm and manage the franchise.

And I think that's a great thing. "Fantasy has no limits" isn't just a cute tagline they came up with.

 

[Lex]

Yes, we do call them western role-playing games.

No it's not racist.

JRPGs are called that way because it refers to a style of RPG that originated in Japan.

That might be all you see it as, but Yoshi-P's point still stands and it's down to the Japanese devs to decide if they like a term or not.

"JRPG" for a very long time referred to FF and similar titles and there was a long long period where it was used in a derogatory way. As a huge fan of all types of RPG's and their associated fandoms, I remember very clearly how turn-based or ATB-based games were scoffed at and mocked, and JRPG became synonymous with "anime game I'm not touching because anime". There are whole swathes of people who refuse to go near games that are considered to be JRPG's.

And in fact it was during this period that people started saying "western RPG" to refer to things like Dragon Age. The term "western RPG" was created so that people could plainly state "not a JRPG" because "JRPG" was seen as a bad thing in some circles. But it all falls apart as soon as you consider games like Elden Ring or the Souls series which are developed in Japan and nobody would consider calling them JRPG's.

The term JRPG became popular in the late 90's via old magazine video game journalism and initially it wasn't negative. It became negative with time and was an easy way for closed-minded gamers to simply state distaste for a style of game or atmosphere they had no interest in. As time went on people started mocking the genre, and now we've looped back around to it being a fairly neutral term because most seasoned players recognise the value that genre has brought to gaming in general.

Regardless, I think it's perfectly valid for a developer to call it out as being pigeon-holed into a genre they don't class as existing or even think about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Anyone remember G4TV?

Adam Sessler?

The shitty reviews he gave to every FF, KH, and JRPG that featured on their show?

Like, it's very real the amount of hate and dismissal JRPGs had to endure throughout the late 90s and early 2000s. Hell it's why there was a period JRPGs tried to stop being "JRPGs" for awhile. I think it's s a very legitimate criticism Yoshi P brings up.

 

[JBedford]

I think I mostly agree with everyone here. There's absolutely nothing wrong in anything Yoshida said and his sentiment is understandable. His initial interaction with the term JRPG was as a distinction that appeared to look down on the RPGs made being made in Japan and so was soured to the term. Also he doesn't like feeling boxed in by people's different expectations of the game (of what an FF is, of what a JRPG is, etc.)

Some of the responses I've read online have been pretty bad though. In all of this the thing that's been made most clear to me is that there are many people online who think a JRPG is literally a Japanese RPG, failing to understand it's a genre like French house or Chinese food. I thought people were just trying to be smartarses.

Fifteen years ago western RPGs were landing on console and were popular. WRPGs were a PC thing previously and had a separate audience. The distinction of the two branches of the genre felt necessitated. Though this was also at a time where JRPGs (and the Japanese video game industry in general) weren't doing too hot.

Different genres for different tastes. It's not the only genre people look down on (e.g. hack and slash), it just happens to have a country association in its name. People equally criticised the west's obsession with "grey and brown FPSs" at the time, but it didn't necessitate a genre.

Also I can't really be that mad at people looking down on anime. I think most people who watch anime would admit they enjoy it in spite of the embarassing tropes. JRPGs aren't anime games by definition, but since the genre's saturated by Japanese games the style is ubiquitous.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

From my understanding: Per the Nico Nico dictionary (which I've found is pretty reliable in documenting JP internet things), Japanese devs like Yoshi-P who are in-the-know about the west are not weary of the term "JRPG" because of the term itself, but rather the baggage that comes with the term because of an interview from over a decade ago where a high profile western dev dished out trash talked.

 

[Wol]

Words will always carry connotations (good or bad depending on the person) and are necessary to categorize. RPGs made in Japan will most likely reflect japanese culture, western RPGs respectively, putting them in the same sack wouldn't be truthtful to their characteristics. That doesn't mean words can't lead to generalizations, because there always the exception to the rule.

----------------------

From Dengeki, apparently the Tutorial area in Rosaria.

 

[Wol]

'Final Fantasy XVI' Devs Reveal Why Easy Mode Was Never an Option

Producer Naoki Yoshida, Director Hiroshi Takai, and Combat Director Ryota Suzuki spill the beans on 2023's most anticipated RPG.

www.inverse.com

Great interview!

"What's the genre of the game? It's Final Fantasy."

 

[ForceStealer]

To be objective about it, the whole idea of turn-based, party-based RPGs has been beat to death. Yoshi+Co could be onto something here. I mean, just **how many** of these types of games have come out since FF7 released back in (checks notes) January 1997?

Action adventure games, meanwhile, there's some unexplored territory

As for JRPGs, obviously Yoshi-P can feel anyway he does about it, but the twitter discourse is too far as usual imo. I was around for the "7th generation" discourse and several generations before that and I never personally noted the term itself being used uniquely derogatorily. Now there were obviously people who didn't like them and made that clear, but I never remember seeing JRPG as shorthand for "bad game," or even lesser RPG. It always just referred to a style of game, like CRPGs did, which were also distinct from the more broadly labeled "western RPGs." I mean JRPGs have long been my preferred genre, and I never shied away from the term, it was descriptive. Meanwhile I was likely equally dismissive of FPSes that all looked the same.
Now, I have always pushed back against the idea that a "JRPG" can only be a game made from Japan. From the same purists that blow a blood vessel anytime someone refers to Avatar as an anime. I think JRPG encapsulates a set of parameters/commonalities that games made anywhere can exhibit (Child of Light, a million indies), just as much as an RPG made in Japan can not fall into the category. (Souls, I'd argue the MMOs, possibly XVI )
I guess what I'm getting is that while I can totally understand Japanese devs feeling pigeonholed by the term, and remembering discourse from a time when the genre was struggling, I think twitter is characteristically jumping the gun to label it racist to dislike/treat unfairly a genre simply because that genre is named or associated with a particular country/people. What if you don't like KPop? Anime? Falafel? There was "literally a whole decade where white people used it as a slur?" Come on now.
What Jbedford said, I guess

 

[Wol]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/11jy05f

Hypest interview: https://www.well-played.com.au/we-f...ith-business-unit-iii-over-final-fantasy-xvi/

you can revisit areas after the time-skip and see how they've changed.

 

[HeyWhyNot?]

I mean, in a time of 'that bean curd race' and 'we nuked them and then they became a *real* country' being what you'd see if you turned your TV to a game review show, I feel like focusing solely on the minutiae of the actual term JRPG kinda misses the forest for the trees.


Like, yeah, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the term but I can see how people who came up through that period could feel 'other-ed' by it.

 

[Ite]

Steph Sterling with the sensible take as always

 

[Theozilla]

Very well made video essay/editorial, and I think largely matches my sentiments as well.

And wow that Phil Fish panel clip was egregiously nasty.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And look at where Fish is today.

Schadenfreude at its finest.

 

[Lulcielid]

 

[ph14basicbitch]

I read the interview that this video is citing... I thought I was taking crazy pills when he talked about "being insulted when the game asks you if you want to retry with easy mode" cause right now in FF14 -- the game that Yoshida is the producer of -- if you fail a single player story instance, the game asks you if you want to retry it with easy mode...

 

[Theozilla]

Huh, I didn’t know you only be able to equip two rings max at any time, I thought the gear slots increasing throughout game progression also applied to the accessibility rings. Too bad if that is indeed the case.

But as for the argument that that the accessibility rings being a trade off to greater customization/upgrades is a form of “punishment” for players who need accessibility features, I think the logic is more that they want to reward players who choose more challenging settings a greater depth and breadth of gameplay experience, which I don’t know if that’s necessarily an anti-accessibility design philosophy?

 

[ForceStealer]

I haven't watched the video yet so I don't know the details. But I did think that using equipment in lieu of a distinct difficulty modes was at least a clever idea.

 

[cold_spirit]

Imagine if you booted up XVI and found the game too dark to see, too quiet to hear, and there were no subtitles. Now imagine that each of these settings (brightness, audio, language) were implemented as accessories and, at the start of the game, only two can be equipped at a time.

This may sound like a joke, but I assure you it is not. This is how it will feel to play XVI as a disabled gamer.

Here are XVI’s five accessibility accessories. At the start of the game, only three can be equipped at a time:
Time slowdown
Auto Torgal
Auto combo
Auto dodge
Auto potion

Disability comes in many forms. Even basic actions, especially timed actions like dodging or attacking, can be strenuous or near impossible. It may also be that a person’s disability prevents them from reaching certain buttons, even on Sony’s adaptive controller.

Limiting which options a disabled player can choose from is unnecessary and over designed. Furthermore, disabled players will miss out on any stat buffs or resistances that other players will enjoy because their accessory slots will be competing with the options above.

There’s been so many great examples of gaming accessibility in recent years, especially in other PlayStation exclusives like The Last of Us Part II, God of War Ragnarok, and Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart. As such, I’m quite confused by XVI. Accessibility, just like screen brightness and audio mixing, should be available in menu form at the start of the game, no exceptions.

 

[hui43210]

As a person with a disability, I feel ashamed that I didn't even think about this until I saw that video. Modern controllers have made gaming much easier for myself, but reaching R1 or L1 in the heat of combat can be very hard for me. This gamer pride comment is actually aggravating to me, reeks of gatekeeping, and I hope someone in the game media asks him about accessibility. FF7R is missing a lot of the accessibility features games like GOW have which is unfortunate, but it at least gives people an easy mode.

Meanwhile, Street Fighter 6, a fighting game which is a genre that emphasizes technical skills, is giving players an option for a simplified control scheme and even a 1 button mode for offline play! I can't speak for all PWDs, but I'll actually get to compete on a level playing field online thanks to the new controls and I'm so excited for it! It gives the idea that the game is at least trying be inclusive, while Yoshi-P is coming off as tone deaf.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think the real judgment on the game will come when we actually have someone get to play it and review it.

Because for all we know, the game's difficulty and challenge through it's story mode could easily be overcome with just those accessories equipped alongside any other difficulty scaling option (such as a story focused mode) and it's designed precisely around those parameters. I get the frustration and unease about those options being tied to accessory slots, but for all we know that literally could be all it takes to just go through the game and enjoy the story and it's mechanics. Because there's also all the other types of equipment that exist like armor, weapon, etc. If anything, I think there should be more options for visual and auditory difficulties like in TLOU. We're judging way too quickly just how hard or unenjoyable the game's playability will be with what will be included.

I don't imagine this game being extremely challenging or intensive like Bloodborne of Dark Souls. Unless something shows that the game becomes a hard barrier for players, usually there's a scale of accessibility for players in an FF game.

 

[Theozilla]

I’m confused again, can only two rings be equipped at once max, or is the max 3 at once?

 

[ForceStealer]

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Realistic depiction of how many rings Yoshi-P wears.