Hope, Snow, and Empathy

[OneWingedDemon]

Tres, you miss the point: It's not that people don't understand grief or can't follow Hope's logic or lack thereof...it's that they don't give a shit about him. That's bad writing and characterization no matter which way you slice it.

Lack of empathy is not indicative of a failure in the audience's comprehension skills. You sit here and try to explain his actions as if facts and a laundry list of all the events in his life will create a connection with the audience. It won't.

Characters don't have to be good or rational in order to engage us. Hope doesn't because SE gave him a sob story and then expected his history to sustain the character. Doesn't work that way.

 

[Dana Scully]

That's not the same the guys. They weren't blowing up the reactors TO kill the people inside. They blew the reactors to harm Shinra, and considered the casualties a necessary evil. It would be the same if the express purpose was to kill the people in the reactors.

Furthermore, the civilian casualties on the Reactor 1 explosion was a miscalculation on Jessie's part. They intended to blow the reactor - and just the reactor - at night to minimize innocent deaths.

Even so, they were willing to risk innocent lives, which is certainly something Hope didn't do - though to be fair it's not really a comparable situation, since Hope was targeting one man rather than gigantic company.

And, really, what reason does Tifa have to go after Shinra? Sephiroth was the one who fucked her/Nibelheim over, not them. At the time she's working with AVALANCHE she doesn't know that Shinra just quietly replicated Nibelheim and pretended nothing ever happened, so that can't justify it.

Really, all Shinra ever did other than employ Sephykins was provide her with cable TV. Not exactly a reason to become a terrorist.

Despite the fact that that one specific person was far less to blame than the giant faceless organization. AND, the giant faceless organization is exactly who Barret and Tifa targeted!

Barret's completely justified. Tifa I already talked about. Now, imagine you're fourteen years old and you just watched your mom die. On one side you see a bunch of PSICOM soldiers who all look exactly the same and you have no idea which one them actually was responsible for the explosion that killed your mom. On the other side you have Snow, who is the reason your mom was near the explosion in the first place and who minutes later is proclaiming himself to be the hero as if your mom never happened.

Is it really that hard to see why a grief-stricken Hope would go after Snow in that case?

 

[ForceStealer]

And, really, what reason does Tifa have to go after Shinra? Sephiroth was the one who fucked her/Nibelheim over, not them. At the time she's working with AVALANCHE she doesn't know that Shinra just quietly replicated Nibelheim and pretended nothing ever happened, so that can't justify it.

Because they sent the SOLDIERs there as representatives of Shinra? Everything was fine before they showed up except for some monsters. The reactor, where all this crap happened, and the reason the SOLDIERs were there, was also Shinra's doing.

Is it really that hard to see why a grief-stricken Hope would go after Snow in that case?

Not when I watched my mom take the gun herself, being fully aware that this guy was not the reason she was near the explosion - she was. The man didn't even seem especially comfortable with her taking the gun. To be frank, I might be more angry at my mother for leaving me.

As for him calling himself a hero, yeah I wouldn't like him. I didn't lose my mother and I don't like him. But call him out on it, killing him for being a douche is a highly disproportionate punishment. It would also be nice if I could call him out on it in any of my various opportunities to do so and not when being actively sought and fired upon by the military.


A big piece of this is probably the writing, sure. As I said before, we know Hope saw everything important so there was no reason for him to be mislead, and WE saw everything so we knew he was wrong. Secondly, he determined he was going to kill him very early on. So anything insensitive Snow said afterwards doesn't really mean anything as he's already been sentenced to death. We're also forced to hear the kid say the same thing over and over and over again without doing ANYTHING despite ample opportunity.
That last bit is all over XIII's story, actually. I've complained before how many times the characters realize their being played - announce they won't stand for it...and then change absolutely nothing about what they're doing. And this happens SEVERAL times.

 

[Max Payne]

And, really, what reason does Tifa have to go after Shinra? Sephiroth was the one who fucked her/Nibelheim over, not them. At the time she's working with AVALANCHE she doesn't know that Shinra just quietly replicated Nibelheim and pretended nothing ever happened, so that can't justify it.

Really, all Shinra ever did other than employ Sephykins was provide her with cable TV. Not exactly a reason to become a terrorist.

Uh, they're directly responsible for everything that ruined her life, and her hometown? Including the death of her father? Joining Avalanche just made her more aware of everything she didn't know.

 

[Dana Scully]

Because they sent the SOLDIERs there as representatives of Shinra? Everything was fine before they showed up except for some monsters. The reactor, where all this crap happened, and the reason the SOLDIERs were there, was also Shinra's doing.

Zack was there too and he was a totally cool dude. And the reactor had been there her entire life, but she never seemed to have any issues with it before.

Not when I watched my mom take the gun herself, being fully aware that this guy was not the reason she was near the explosion - she was. The man didn't even seem especially comfortable with her taking the gun. To be frank, I might be more angry at my mother for leaving me.

That Hope should have been angry with is mom is definitely something I agree with.

As for him calling himself a hero, yeah I wouldn't like him. I didn't lose my mother and I don't like him. But call him out on it, killing him for being a douche is a highly disproportionate punishment.

No one's suggesting that Snow deserved to be killed, just that the basis for the blame is there. But I think this is something we're just going to have to agree to disagree on.

That last bit is all over XIII's story, actually. I've complained before how many times the characters realize their being played - announce they won't stand for it...and then change absolutely nothing about what they're doing. And this happens SEVERAL times.

Yeah, this bugs me too. I guess on one hand they don't really have a choice if they don't want to turn into Cieth, but still, it doesn't even seem like they try to think of a different way than what Barty suggests.

 

[Dana Scully]

Uh, they're directly responsible for everything that ruined her life, and her hometown? Including the death of her father? Joining Avalanche just made her more aware of everything she didn't know.

Sephiroth =/= Shinra.

Of course we know that Shinra was responsible for a lot of it, but Tifa didn't. And condemning the actions of an entire corporation because one dude snapped isn't exactly rational.

 

[Glaurung]

Could we separate the discussion about XIII's plot and take it to another thread, please? Thank you

 

[ForceStealer]

Sephiroth was clearly from Shinra, and represented them. He snapped in Shinra manor. Her father died in Shinra's reactor at the hands of Shinra's superstar general. It's far more rational than blaming one person for what an entire organization did. (Especially considering said person doesn't belong to that organization.)

I'll try Glau...though there's not a very specific delineation where the one convo ended and the other started...

 

[Max Payne]

Zack was there too and he was a totally cool dude. And the reactor had been there her entire life, but she never seemed to have any issues with it before.

Who had the biggest effect on her life? Zack, or Sephiroth?

She didn't have issues with it before because she hadn't found out the people that killed her town were sucking the life out of her planet too.

 

[ForceStealer]

There. Still wasn't easy, as certain posts made comments about both discussions, but that's about as good as its gonna get.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Who had the biggest effect on her life? Zack, or Sephiroth?

She didn't have issues with it before because she hadn't found out the people that killed her town were sucking the life out of her planet too.

Also consider that her transition from country bumpkin/terrorist most likely wasn't instantaneous. I'm sure she had the common sense to learn what she could (and once she got to Midgar, see with her own eyes) before she went blowin shit up.

 

[Glaurung]

Thanks, Force

 

[Max Payne]

Also consider that her transition from country bumpkin/terrorist most likely wasn't instantaneous. I'm sure she had the common sense to learn what she could (and once she got to Midgar, see with her own eyes) before she went blowin shit up.

She didn't immediately go from carefree country girl, to being half dead, to being an international terrorist in one night after all.

 

[Ⓐaron]

There. Still wasn't easy, as certain posts made comments about both discussions, but that's about as good as its gonna get.

My post had more to do with FFXIII-2 in general than Hope/Snow discussion

 

[Arianna]

I don't hate Hope, but his philosophizing irritated me.

In fact, while Barthandelus was looking to kill everyone - so that one aside, everyone's bickering and blaming the fal'Cie for being so horrible to them was irritating; and, for the most part, not true.

I don't hate Snow, but his bragging and rash decisions were irritating - He wasn't a hero for saying it, but for what he tried to and did do when it came to the Purge and then defeating Barthandelus/Orphan. Plus, he wasn't the one and only hero.

I agree with who said it first, Serah was more of a plot device. She didn't have much personality and I just feel that she was poorly developed.

Though truth be told, all the characters needed more development.

So, really - I don't hate them, but I feel they were not shown in the best of light, which also can be put down to their own personalities which came through irritating me more than not.

But if things go like with XII, as I said similar things with that story and those characters, I'll probably gleam more out of them as I play the game more and read more about the characters and the sequel. Not forgetting, the epilogue and the prologue. In the end, I do not hate any character, and probably will end up being more accepting towards them all.

 

[Dana Scully]

Sephiroth was clearly from Shinra, and represented them. He snapped in Shinra manor. Her father died in Shinra's reactor at the hands of Shinra's superstar general.

Let me make a comparison: If Julian Assange - whom I think it's safe to say represents WikiLeaks - was at work at 'WikiLeaks Headquarters' and snapped, then went and murdered a town full of people, would it be rational to go blow up WikiLeaks?

No. Understandable, sure, given that bastard Assange just killed your father and you're crazy with grief and rage, but not rational.

It's far more rational than blaming one person for what an entire organization did. (Especially considering said person doesn't belong to that organization.)

Saying it's more rational than what Hope did isn't saying much. Remember, no one argued that Hope was being rational about the whole thing, just that there was some basis - if a weak one - for him going after Snow.

Who had the biggest effect on her life? Zack, or Sephiroth?

She didn't have issues with it before because she hadn't found out the people that killed her town were sucking the life out of her planet too.

When she has her "I hate SOLDIER, Shinra, all of it" line she doesn't know jackshit about Shinra sucking the life out of anything. She's just fifteen (? I think) and really, really angry.

It's reasonable to say that once Tifa joined AVALANCHE she learned about all the evil things Shinra did and therefore became justified in her quest for revenge. But before then she doesn't know about the Planet or the experiments or any of that shit, and yet she's still hellbent on getting payback on a corporation with enough employees to populate a small country for what one single individual did.

Again, not rational.

 

[Max Payne]

When she has her "I hate SOLDIER, Shinra, all of it" line she doesn't know jackshit about Shinra sucking the life out of anything. She's just fifteen (? I think) and really, really angry.

Uh no shit. Pretty sure we acknowledged that chief.

It's reasonable to say that once Tifa joined AVALANCHE she learned about all the evil things Shinra did and therefore became justified in her quest for revenge. But before then she doesn't know about the Planet or the experiments or any of that shit, and yet she's still hellbent on getting payback on a corporation with enough employees to populate a small country for what one single individual did.

Are you talking the one truly heated moment she ever had RIGHT after her father is brutally murdered by King Shit of Shinra himself? She wasn't thinking straight and she eventually evolved past personal revenge not long after. Comparing that to Hope's completely illogical single minded quest against Snow for something he didn't even do is silly. Not to mention kinda retarded.

Tifa is actually blaming the right people, the people who brought tragedy to her life.

 

[Dana Scully]

Are you talking the one truly heated moment she ever had RIGHT after her father is brutally murdered by King Shit of Shinra himself? She wasn't thinking straight and she eventually evolved past personal revenge not long after.

Yes. We were also talking about that one moment RIGHT after Hope watches his mom being brutally murdered by PSICOM. He also wasn't thinking straight and evolved past his personal revenge not long after.

Seriously, that scene in Palumpolum happens, what, a few days into the game's timeline? Hope got over his issues pretty fast.

The only difference is that Hope blamed the individual when he should have blamed the corporation while Tifa blamed the corporation when she should have (at the time) blamed the individual.

Tifa is actually blaming the right people, the people who brought tragedy to her life.

But she doesn't know this at the time she starts throwing her blame around, and she probably doesn't know it for some time. It turns out to be the right people, but that still doesn't justify it at the time.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

so i just showed up here but are we comparing hope to tifa?

cause that's just surreal

 

[Max Payne]

Yes. We were also talking about that one moment RIGHT after Hope watches his mom being brutally murdered by PSICOM. He also wasn't thinking straight and evolved past his personal revenge not long after.

Took a while for hope to catch some sense. Even then, he still was in the wrong.

Seriously, that scene in Palumpolum happens, what, a few days into the game's timeline? Hope got over his issues pretty fast.

As far as game time goes, not fast enough.

The only difference is that Hope blamed the individual when he should have blamed the corporation while Tifa blamed the corporation when she should have (at the time) blamed the individual.

The only difference is that Tifa was right to blame Shinra and Sephiroth. Which is what she did. Shinra brought Sephiroth there, and Sephiroth ruined everything.

But she doesn't know this at the time she starts throwing her blame around, and she probably doesn't know it for some time. It turns out to be the right people, but that still doesn't justify it at the time.

Herp derp she absolutely knows this. Shinra brought sephiroth there because of the reactor, and Sephiroth destroyed everything. How can she not know? That's retarded. It's absolutely justified. They are to blame.

 

[Max Payne]

so i just showed up here but are we comparing hope to tifa?

cause that's just surreal

Not to mention retarded.

 

[Dana Scully]

Took a while for hope to catch some sense. Even then, he still was in the wrong.

Yes, we know he's wrong. We've discussed this.

As far as game time goes, not fast enough.

The only difference is that Tifa was right to blame Shinra and Sephiroth. Which is what she did. Shinra brought Sephiroth there, and Sephiroth ruined everything.

Shinra didn't send Sephiroth with some evil intent of making him go batshit and kill everyone.

Herp derp she absolutely knows this. Shinra brought sephiroth there because of the reactor, and Sephiroth destroyed everything. How can she not know? That's retarded. It's absolutely justified. They are to blame.

Did you actually read what I said or just herp derped your way straight to the reply button? I said she doesn't know about all the shit Shinra's done like sucking life out of the planet, experiments, rebuilding Nibelheim, etc. Of course she knows Shinra sent Sephiroth - to clean up the monsters that were terrorizing the town/fix the broken reactor, those evil bastards. Again, saying the actions of Sephiroth reflect the entire Shinra organization is not. rational. It doesn't matter how you spin it, the fact is Sephiroth was acting alone when he blew up Nibelheim.

I'm not trying to blame Tifa for hating Shinra. I understand why she did it. I'm saying it's not rational, and that Hope wasn't rational, and that people don't do rational shit after traumatic events like the sudden loss of a parent.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tifa blamed Sephiroth for killing her dad and Shinra for killing the planet. Sephiroth did kill her dad and Shinra was killing the planet. At most, she's overstretching the blame to ShinRa.

Hope blamed Snow for killing his mom. Snow failed to save Nora's life, but he's not the one who killed her. He's completely blaming the wrong person.

Not the same.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Shinra was killing the planet.

Well, she didn't know that when she said it.

 

[Dana Scully]

Tifa blamed Sephiroth for killing her dad and Shinra for killing the planet. Sephiroth did kill her dad and Shinra was killing the planet. At most, she's overstretching the blame to ShinRa.

Again. Tifa had no idea Shinra was killing the planet at the time she first went all revenge happy.

Hope blamed Snow for killing his mom. Snow failed to save Nora's life, but he's not the one who killed her. He's completely blaming the wrong person.

Again. Snow was the reason Nora was fighting near the explosion in the first place. Wrong to blame him, absolutely. But it was also wrong to blame Shinra for Sephiroth.

Not the same.

Actually the amount of similarities between the two situations is surprising.