SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I've been describing Cloud as mentally 16 since 2002 or so when I really started looking at the game analytically -- when I was 16 myself. The irony of that intention seems clear in light of Yuffie being 16, Red XIII being described as comparable to 16, and this situation essentially making both Aerith and Tifa "an older woman" like Cloud's mom recommended for him.

None of which is to say that he's selfish or doesn't want to be a better person. It does mark him as probably immature, though, in ways he certainly demonstrates.
 

pigglesthepup

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
piggles
But are Cloud's lies malicious? Self-serving? Or do they have some other cause?
I absolutely believe you when you say that Cloud lies in the Remake. It's just that I don't remember where. Can you give a couple of examples?

Now that I think about it, I guess most of the main cast lie quite a bit, if by lying we mean keeping certain information concealed. None of them are completely open and upfront about their pasts, at least to start with.
Definitely not malicious, but a mix of self-serving and "some other cause."

Yes, I can provide examples:
"I don't dance."

More seriously tho:
Eeod6-RU0AE1Cng.jpg


He remembers Hojo in a very specific context. I believe there's a follow-up to this of when we actually first see Hojo in the HQ, Cloud stating he doesn't actually know him (outside of being head of R&D). I'd have to look to make sure.

The "Alone at Last" scene with Tifa highlights Cloud withholding information:
She tries to press him to talk about what happened after he left Nibelheim and he responds with some made-up BS about working for Shinra. She tries again and he responds to her with defensive annoyance.

Might be helpful to catalogue Cloud's lies somewhere. Just for future reference.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Those aren't lies.

Cloud's memories are a jumbled combination of his own memories and Zack's recollections which transferred over to him thanks to the Jenova cells in his brain.

He did work for Shinra after leaving Nibelheim. He worked for Shinra... As an Infantryman. However that knowledge and experience blends with his false memories.

Cloud does remember Hojo. Except he isn't aware of how he remembers Hojo or when. His memories are an incomplete mess of reality and illusion. Those aren't lies. He literally isn't even fully himself or aware of it.
 
I honestly thought I was meant to believe that Cloud really didn't remember who he gave the flower to. He's a bit like a person with dementia. His memory comes and goes. One day he knows something, the next he doesn't. He can sound completely authoritative on a subject he's had no experience of. For a while when he's wandering around Sector 5 with Aerith, he seems to completely forget Tifa, and then suddenly he remembers again. Oh yeah, I need to go to Sector 7. Now why is that? Omigod, Tifa!

Sometimes he reminds me of my mother, who has dementia. She can't always remember when or why she did something, or what she had for breakfast, or why there's a hammer in the middle of the floor. So she confabulates: she makes up a story, but not for me, for herself. She's trying to join up the dots and make sense of her experiences, and she does this by drawing on her fragmentary and increasingly corroded store of memories. When she's assuring me that she had toast for breakfast (though in fact she ate nothing) and that she went to the drug store afterwards (when in fact she isn't allowed to leave the building), she believes she's telling the truth.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
He outright lies to Aerith regarding Tifa; the first time he says he doesn't remember to whom he gave the flower. His outright lies often involve Tifa, the rest I will agree that his jumbled memories and Jenova are more the reason behind him failing and trying to not break.

When he gives the flower to Tifa, it's not that he whitholds that information as much as he wanted to please her and impress her (he used a Zack move on her! I'm still laughing at this information). To him where the flower came from has no importance at all. He learned the hard way it did. I like that he did too; he clearly regretted not being more straightforward in his scene with Tifa, and it showed on his face. Clearly in the scene where he gives her the flower, it's the 16 years old boy who tries very much to be cool.

Same when he says he doesn't dance, it's true, normally he doesn't; but if it's to save Tifa, he will do it. I think it's very clear the devs put that here to show just how far Cloud is able to go just to save her.

As to Aerith, he will not tell her; he doesn't know her yet, and anyway his feelings for Tifa are a secret so deep he doesn't even understand he has them yet.

I feel that his outright lies are a mix between something he doesn't understand (his own deep feelings) but that he will try to conceal anyway and him being controlled by Jenova. Hence why Aerith makes fun of him the way she does. Otherwise, I don't feel that Cloud is "a liar". It's more that there's a lot of stuff he does not remember. And in sector 5, I don't feel he particularly forgot about going back to sector 7. He repeated it like a mantra. But I think he did have fun with Aerith, so it went in the back of his mind.
 

pigglesthepup

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
piggles
Those aren't lies.

Cloud's memories are a jumbled combination of his own memories and Zack's recollections which transferred over to him thanks to the Jenova cells in his brain.

He did work for Shinra after leaving Nibelheim. He worked for Shinra... As an Infantryman. However that knowledge and experience blends with his false memories.

Cloud does remember Hojo. Except he isn't aware of how he remembers Hojo or when. His memories are an incomplete mess of reality and illusion. Those aren't lies. He literally isn't even fully himself or aware of it.

I understand what you are saying. I question it because:

He remembers killing Sephiroth. Zack was already down when that happened.

Furthermore:

It's understood that Cloud is new to Midgar. He even tells Aerith he's never been there before. Zack has definitely been to Midgar. His relation to Midgar ties back to the conversation with Tifa about what he's been up to. During the promise, he specifically said he was going to Midgar to enlist. She's been there five years already. There's a good chance she tired to look him up and got either nothing or an MIA/KIA.

I wondered about it myself, but when I went back to the OG:

When he rejoins the party, he confesses to everyone that he made up the stories about him being in SOLDIER, borrowing them from Zack and that he was "playing a charade as if it were true." He doesn't say he misremembered. He also describes what the Sephiroth clones are, which is why the "meat and numbers" line is so important.

What I think may be happening is that he may be remembering certain things over time, but there's things he already definitely knows and is hiding.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
Jenova manipulates his memories though; that's why he thinks he was in SOLDIER, because when he met up with Tifa (at least int he OG), Jenova scoured her mind and saw that she believed he was a SOLDIER, as he told her (plus he wore the outfit!). That's how SOLDIER Cloud was born, but at the root of it is Jenova manipulating him.

It's even clearer in Remake that something is up; with him making up Tifa noticing him when they were kids; with him having a seizure when Aerith mentions Zack's name; etc. They even have added special green effects in Intermission now - those are the modified memories he has. The only unscathed one would be the Promise scene, I believe.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Jenova and Sephiroth are feeding him false memories mixed with his own recollections. Even if he remembers killing Sephiroth, he doesn't remember how it actually happened. He thinks he did it as a SOLDIER.

Cloud isn't new to Midgar. He lived there as a Shinra Infantryman. However that truth is again suppressed and completely overshadowed by the false persona crafted by the Jenova cells and his screwed up mind.

Cloud in the OG was simply taking responsibility because his own inadequacy and insecurities were the colors the Jenova cells used to paint his illusionary persona. But no, he wasn't responsible. No more than the Black Cloaked Sephiroth Copies are responsible for being made into zombies that worship and obey Sephiroth. He wasn't in control of himself or consciously lying. He truly believed it all.

Because Mako Poisoning and Sephiroth/Jenova messed with his mind. There was no way he would be able to see through that illusion because to him, it was reality. His mind was completely broken through Mako Poisoning and reconstructed by Jenova Cells and the portions of memories they mimicked from Zack and his insecurities to fill in the important gaps.
 

kathy202

Pro Adventurer
Hmm I never saw Cloud as a liar, just someone with very messed up memories and can't put things together coherently as a result, ends up lying, but not intentionally to deceive.

That aside, on the topic of whether he's some really kind and helpful person that some say he is, I'm not sure he's entirely that. Did he help Jessie because he knows how she felt? Not really. He agreed to help before she told him what she needed help with. I get the sense that he's doing it more because he wants to build a connection with others, gain approval, and he's not exactly sociable, so helping them out with his skills is the best way to do that. Nothing wrong with that, I just don't think it particularly brings out the merits of his personality more than that of a regular decent person.

As for his flaws, I wouldn't really consider the way he's handled his mental issues a flaw at all. Those are pretty damn fucked up problems to be dealing with, and he's the hero because he overcame them. His flaws would be more along the lines of trying too hard to look cool sometimes to a point where it's irritating. And also trying to kill Johnny and Reno. Maybe the latter is understandable, but really? Johnny??

As for whether he's Mr. Right for the girls, that ultimately depends on what each girl is looking for. Personally, I think Tifa has been the most supportive of him, but the other way around? I'm only half convinced. But maybe it's just hard to be the partner of someone who has a ton of issues. Putting those issues aside, if that's even possible, I can't get a good sense of what Tifa would like in a relationship actually. Someone reliable, homely maybe? Cloud fits that bill well enough I guess.

For Aerith, it's a bit clearer. She's sheltered but adventurous at the same time, almost seems to enjoy doing random dangerous things. Zack, not Cloud, seems like the perfect kind of guy for that. I think Cloud would get too annoyed eventually.

So yeah, it's cloti for me as well.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I get the sense that he's doing it more because he wants to build a connection with others, gain approval, and he's not exactly sociable

That doesn't make sense. If he's willing to be helpful on his own in order to build a connection with someone, that's a socialized trait. A behavior that's rooted in pleasing others. That goes beyond "decent," that's giving.

His flaws would be more along the lines of trying too hard to look cool sometimes to a point where it's irritating. And also trying to kill Johnny and Reno. Maybe the latter is understandable, but really? Johnny??

Which is essentially a manifestation of his own original character flaw of self loathing. He doesn't carry self acceptance. Therefore he believes he has to change himself to be someone better in order to be impressive. His ego and confidence are weak.

And he was willing to kill Johnny because he thought he was someone who'd give up information on AVALANCHE, he didn't know the guy was basically a harmless dork. But since he was in "hardass SOLDIER" mode, he was acting the part.
 

pigglesthepup

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
piggles
Jenova and Sephiroth are feeding him false memories mixed with his own recollections. Even if he remembers killing Sephiroth, he doesn't remember how it actually happened. He thinks he did it as a SOLDIER.

Cloud isn't new to Midgar. He lived there as a Shinra Infantryman. However that truth is again suppressed and completely overshadowed by the false persona crafted by the Jenova cells and his screwed up mind.

Cloud in the OG was simply taking responsibility because his own inadequacy and insecurities were the colors the Jenova cells used to paint his illusionary persona. But no, he wasn't responsible. No more than the Black Cloaked Sephiroth Copies are responsible for being made into zombies that worship and obey Sephiroth. He wasn't in control of himself or consciously lying. He truly believed it all.

Because Mako Poisoning and Sephiroth/Jenova messed with his mind. There was no way he would be able to see through that illusion because to him, it was reality. His mind was completely broken through Mako Poisoning and reconstructed by Jenova Cells and the portions of memories they mimicked from Zack and his insecurities to fill in the important gaps.

I say this with the utmost respect for your theory. It completely makes sense within the context of the OG. However, within Remake, it's got a hole in it because of a retcon that's probably been mentioned too many times in this thread:

Cloud remembers the promise all by himself. And Sephiroth/Jenova let him. Why? Tifa is kryponite to mind-controlling Cloud. Why would this Sephiroth from the future who knows what took him down before? He's got access to Cloud's mind. He knows what the important stuff is. Cloud's memories being totally controlled in the OG make sense because Tifa had to actively help him recall the promise. But he did it all by himself this time.

The last thing Jenovaroth should allow is Cloud to continue to hang out with Tifa. That lines up with that fake memory of them of kids, and Tifa's running to him, and it's implied that he's ignoring her. Jenovaroth would want Cloud to ignore Tifa. So what's going on now? If the Achielle's Heel of Jenovaroth can get through, what else does Cloud remember?


Jenova manipulates his memories though; that's why he thinks he was in SOLDIER, because when he met up with Tifa (at least int he OG), Jenova scoured her mind and saw that she believed he was a SOLDIER, as he told her (plus he wore the outfit!). That's how SOLDIER Cloud was born, but at the root of it is Jenova manipulating him.

It's even clearer in Remake that something is up; with him making up Tifa noticing him when they were kids; with him having a seizure when Aerith mentions Zack's name; etc. They even have added special green effects in Intermission now - those are the modified memories he has. The only unscathed one would be the Promise scene, I believe.

Cloud also has his own reasons for wanting to be a SOLDIER. Sephiroth keeps mentioning this when he appears to Cloud: that he's weak and can't save anyone. That what he wants to get stronger. He even shows up during Cloud's little flashback of Mt Nibel (about "only scrapping his knees") while he's unconscious after falling into the church to tell Cloud that he is his "everything" (Sephiroth is screwing with Cloud in a whole different this time. Explanation probably belongs elsewhere.). Cloud's own desires is why I looked back at the OG when he comes clean about this: being SOLDIER is what he wanted. It's a motivation to lie. And that's why I don't say the lies are malicious, but a mix of self-serving and "other reasons."
 

frosty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Snowman
The other small white lie Cloud tells is when Tifa asks Cloud where he was (after infiltrating Shinra's warehouse with Jessie and maybe offering to come back for pizza with her) and he told her "Just Walking" :P

LicoriceAllSorts said:
He LOVES praise but he's inherently modest
I'm not sure Mr. I'VE GOT SKILLS is modest, tho. :lol: Though people have explained his ego/confidence issues already.

So I have to rephrase what I meant when I asked what are Cloud's qualities - I do acknowledge he's a good character - it's why he's the most loved FF hero. But I was thinking what makes him good in relation to being a good partner to either of the women, and I still feel it's a bit of a question mark for me.

Yes he's kind, he's hardworking, he saved the world, he took on the strongest SOLDIER, he battled depression, but that's kind of like saying - That man is a GREAT doctor. Saved so many people! But not being able to answer why he's a good spouse, specific to his wife.

kathy202 said:
As for whether he's Mr. Right for the girls, that ultimately depends on what each girl is looking for. Personally, I think Tifa has been the most supportive of him, but the other way around? I'm only half convinced. But maybe it's just hard to be the partner of someone who has a ton of issues. Putting those issues aside, if that's even possible, I can't get a good sense of what Tifa would like in a relationship actually. Someone reliable, homely maybe? Cloud fits that bill well enough I guess.
Yes precisely this. It feels very overweight what Tifa does for Cloud, and you could argue in the OG, Aerith helps him open up. Also in the OG, what grows Tifa as a character is a little vague. Her big "fault" in the game, is not being able to be forthright with what she feels. Does Cloud help her be more open and honest through out the course of the game? Not really.

In CoT, she has to deal guilt of what her actions did to people on the plate - here, you can see Cloud try to provide emotional support. But it quickly veers off to him dealing with his own issues. Then later, she wants to know that he loves Marlene and her, enough to work on things. He doesn't confirm the latter, though we know the reason why.

In AC, Tifa wants confirmation that her "family" is valid. Only till The Kids Are Alright he verbalizes this in one line to Vits/Evan/Kyrie. But again, it's not to her that this is told.

Which is why I'm curious about the reason why people "ship" beyond what narration says.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Cloud remembers the promise all by himself. And Sephiroth/Jenova let him. Why? Tifa is kryponite to mind-controlling Cloud. Why would this Sephiroth from the future who knows what took him down before? He's got access to Cloud's mind. He knows what the important stuff is. Cloud's memories being totally controlled in the OG make sense because Tifa had to actively help him recall the promise. But he did it all by himself this time.

Cloud remembered the promise in the OG as well... Tifa reminds him of it but he remembers.

And we don't know if Sephiroth is from the future or if it's a Sephiroth from the same future as the others. That's purely conjecture that's beyond the scope of our understanding. However the fact is, is Cloud is still under the same influences as before. Cloud has some recollections but they're obsfucated by illusions thanks to the Jenova Cells within his mind.
 

pigglesthepup

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
piggles
Cloud remembered the promise in the OG as well... Tifa reminds him of it but he remembers.

But she had to aid him to do it. Furthermore, he's still ready to walk out because he didn't become a hero or famous. His Jenova cells can't read her and import the memory this time because she isn't even present. And he shows no hesitation to fulfill the promise regardless of his hero or fame status. This is very different.

And we don't know if Sephiroth is from the future or if it's a Sephiroth from the same future as the others. That's purely conjecture that's beyond the scope of our understanding. However the fact is, is Cloud is still under the same influences as before. Cloud has some recollections but they're obsfucated by illusions thanks to the Jenova Cells within his mind.

This is a future Sephiroth. Aerith knowing things she shouldn't and the Whispers being a thing doesn't make any sense without it. Why are they here? Why does he cut a portal for the party to follow into so they can defeat them? What's the purpose?

This isn't to say that the manipulation isn't there. It is. It's just different this time. Denying Cloud to be human by repressing his memories didn't work because with Tifa's help, he was able to retrieve them and prove that he was human. Sephiroth's approach to Cloud is different: he appears to him to harp on the things that make Cloud human, the things that Cloud's memories actually back up. He taunts him about being weak, not being able to save people, about failing and wanting to grow stronger. He's looking to break Cloud by going for his deepest wants and fears. He's going for his mental jugular.

This is what I think is actually going on:

Sephiroth knows Cloud's deepest wants and fears. Instead of forcing him to forget, he wants him to remember everything so that Cloud himself will tell the lie. Cloud wants the fantasy that he's an ex-SOLDIER. The mental breaking point will still be Sephiroth showing Zack at Nibelheim, but instead of it being about Cloud not being there, it will be about how Cloud was there. The onus is going to be on Cloud to admit the truth. He's not going to. Admitting it isn't an option. Tifa is going to have her crisis of confidence in him, causing him to finally break. Cloud will have screwed over himself, which is exactly what Sephiroth wants.

Yes, it's conjecture, but it's the only way I see the pieces fitting together right now.
 
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kathy202

Pro Adventurer
Which is why I'm curious about the reason why people "ship" beyond what narration says.

Yeah I wonder about that to. I ship cloti only because I think it's canon. And no, cleriths cannot change my mind. I just don't see it.

But this is hardly a "omg perfect couple made in heaven" relationship. Cloti is more of a realistic not-so-great-but-workable relationship. Real relationships are rarely perfect or even something to die for. There'll be problems, one side may give more than the other, but you stick together and try to make it work just because you're already at that point, and you do care enough about each other.

And that's also why this ship frustrates me more than anything and makes me feel like screaming at Cloud, whatever problems he may be going through. In a way, being with someone like that probably forces Tifa to speak up more and sooner. But idk man... Being with someone who keeps needing you to do something you already struggle with... Well, some people say that "builds character" :mon:
 
I thought Cloud's true self wasn't completely supressed by Jenova and Sephiroth, but that his true persona and his false false ones were struggling for control. Sometimes his true self emerges, and he has a real memory, then forgets it five minutes later.

Just a couple of small things. Cloud saying "I've got skills" is hardly being immodest, when he's just been accused of having no skills by Marle, and since he does, in fact, have skills.

He promised Jessie he wouldn't tell anyone about the trip to get the blasting agent. Either he lies to Tifa or he breaks his promise to Jessie. That's a white lie.
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
For it to be a lie, I think we’d need to establish whether or not Cloud would have still made up the story about him being in SOLDIER without Jenova’s influence, and…well, there’s no way to prove that, I think.

Cloud does explain that the mix between the Jenova cells, Sephiroth’s will and his own weakness made him who he is, so I can’t really call him a liar if he himself actually believed it. The minor stuff he lies about like giving the flower to Tifa is just him being cagey but he actually believes he was a SOLDIER because Jenova basically uses Cloud’s weakness against him, making him susceptible to Sephiroth’s manipulation.

As far as LTD stuff goes (oh yeah, this is an LTD thread!) @Odysseus I think Cloud’s feelings are the crux of these arguments, it’s just that people seem to have wildly different and even contradictory ways of interpreting those feelings. So perhaps much like Cloud himself, some people who distort the story by self-inserting actually believe the story is what they think it is without realizing it.

And then of course there’s the desire of obsessed individuals to dunk on strangers over the internet. So what came first then, the chicken or the egg? Did the distortion of the story create this desire to win the shipping war, or did the shipping war make people distort the story to justify their stance? I guess it depends on the person, it’s all garbage to me either way lol.

“You can’t fall in love with me. Even if you think you have, it’s not real.” See, I’m really interested in where they go with this line. Because while people might get distracted by Aerith’s use of the “L” word and Cloud’s response of “Don’t I get a say in this?”, I’m more interested in what exactly the story is trying to suggest here about his feelings. I don’t think we’ve ever gotten such a direct statement on his romantic feelings for Aerith the way we’ve had several direct statements on his romantic feelings for Tifa, and the one time they choose to go there, it’s with Aerith herself saying it’s not real.

My main investment in FF7 has always been Cloud’s mental journey, so my interest in the love triangle is really more about how it serves that narrative (gee, who woulda thunk?) rather than caring about who Cloud bangs/wants to bang. And I’m inclined to believe the devs feel the same way.

So how does this thing end then? Well…it doesn’t. People will still argue regardless of how definitive of a conclusion we get (or perhaps already got). For me, just give me a good story and I’m all set. But the question that always comes back for me is this: are you appreciating the story for what it is, or for what you want it to be? Are you living in an illusion or have you embraced reality?

All this to say, shippers are a weird bunch lmao.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Let me be weird, @KindOfBlue :@

As for whether he's Mr. Right for the girls, that ultimately depends on what each girl is looking for. Personally, I think Tifa has been the most supportive of him, but the other way around? I'm only half convinced. But maybe it's just hard to be the partner of someone who has a ton of issues. Putting those issues aside, if that's even possible, I can't get a good sense of what Tifa would like in a relationship actually. Someone reliable, homely maybe? Cloud fits that bill well enough I guess.

But I was thinking what makes him good in relation to being a good partner to either of the women, and I still feel it's a bit of a question mark for me.

Tifa is a grounded, very normal girl. What is interesting is that in the OG and I suspect it's the same here, she fell in love with the image of Cloud. While leaving her, he left a strong impression on her mind that kept coming back, so she thought more and more about him until she fell in love with him (her scrapped diary shows that very well). But as she says in both OG and Remake, she doesn't know him that well at that moment. He's the kid next door who always gets in fights. This is why chapter 3 happens. Because Tifa needs to assess who Cloud is. She knows him well enough to be able to tell that he's changed when he wants to kill Johnny, that he scares her. The irony is not lost on anyone, I hope, that his SOLDIER persona drives her away from him - remember also that she found Sephiroth cold, and wasn't interested at all in Zack except to talk about Cloud in CC. This is a pattern. She is looking for someone far more normal than a SOLDIER.

This is why, around her, he lets his guard down. Why he's more relaxed, acts more like his true self would; because the story needs Tifa to see the real Cloud behind the smoke. The story needs her to fall in love with the true Cloud. Because people keep asking, what kind of man would Tifa fall for? The answer is here: it's Cloud. The true one. She needs to connect to him in a deeper level in order to trust him, to believe in him - giving Cloud the reassurance that he needs that he is "Cloud of Nibelheim".

And in Remake, when you see him protecting her the way he does, especially on the pillar, making sure she'd make it, supporting her... to me the pillar and its after fall is the big moment when you see Cloud truly taking care of Tifa the way a man does with his girlfriend/wife. The way he's depicted, making her stand up, and never letting go of her until they are down in sector 7, then silently be there as she discovers the rubbles, being ready to support her again, until he can comfort her in chapter 14... to me this screams husband material. Why wouldn't you fall for such a man? I have said it already, but to me, this scene is actually the biggest scene screaming about Cloud's feelings, and how he wants, he needs her to be fine, both physically and mentally. There's a lot of special treatment he gives her throughout the game, but this is possibly the biggest realisation about it when you look at it closely.

I'm not going to talk about Aerith here, because for her, it's more complicated with her knowing some parts of the future. But we know she sees Zack in him and that's what attracts her to him at first.

But she had to aid him to do it. Furthermore, he's still ready to walk out because he didn't become a hero or famous. His Jenova cells can't read her and import the memory this time because she isn't even present. And he shows no hesitation to fulfill the promise regardless of his hero or fame status. This is very different.

I agree that this is very different; I always felt that in the OG, this was a big plothole, because it is THE memory Cloud uses to realise he's "Cloud of Nibelheim", but it was a memory she pushed him to remember. To me, they closed that plothole by making sure that he'd remembered by himself this time around.

The fact is that this time around... Sephiroth, the one from the future, wants Tifa gone. He doesn't want her around Cloud because she gives him strength, she's always been a "self" catalyst, so to speak, for Cloud. So not only does she helps him in the Lifestream to regain his true self, she's also the one able to push him to better himself (see: the save she does at the top of the Shinra tower). And that Sephiroth knows that - the normal one doesn't seem to especially care, I'd say. The way he tries to manipulate Cloud feels a tad different from the usual Sephiroth, so we'll have to see where this goes, but my gut feeling is that Tifa is the one who can protect Cloud's psyche against his manipulation.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Lots happening in here, lots of discussion, lots going on but I wanted to add it was stated Aerith herself liked Cloud's awkward and clumsy nature while things like the way Zack was around girls ticked her off. Part of why Clerith appeals to me and her investment in trying to get to know him more, like in OG where she is asking Marlene lots of of questions. She didn't just want a Zack replacement and wanted to get to Cloud as a person.

However a lot has changed and I think/hope we will see more of a much more serious/steady/tempered Zack as the Remake continues and that Aerith realises she doesn't have to really worry about other girls now. If I see Zack flirt with anyone else I will scream unless it's like for infiltration purposes or something :P
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I haven't looked at BC, but in CC, I never felt that Zack flirted with anyone but Aerith. I've thought for a long time that the way Aerith described him in the OG... I think part of her was in denial, she wanted him gone with another girl rather than dead? Apparently BC describes him in a more flirty way, but BC wasn't written by Nojima so there's that.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I've read about it... Wait it wasn't here? Where the hell did I read that? They scrapped her diary that you were supposed to be able to read, and you'd see how she'd think more and more about Cloud as days pass. Damnit.

Found it: it's from the Ultimania Omega. The whole text was given. I have no clue as to where I have seen it, I can't find it again :(

Edit: of course I read it on this very same website haha. cc @Odysseus
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Lots happening in here, lots of discussion, lots going on but I wanted to add it was stated Aerith herself liked Cloud's awkward and clumsy nature while things like the way Zack was around girls ticked her off.
You're wrong. Nojima never stated like that, it's Benny.
I've explained that here: https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/ltd-remake-—-its-like-new-coke-except-no-its-exactly-like-new-coke.22509/post-907225

She didn't just want a Zack replacement and wanted to get to Cloud as a person.
I get it, I don't deny it since Zack was dead in OG. But not for the reason you stated above. Benny unintentionally set the wrong perception about Zerith for years before Nojima show what he intended for the pairing in CC.
 
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frosty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Snowman
Maidenofwar said:
If I see Zack flirt with anyone else I will scream unless it's like for infiltration purposes or something :P
Idk why Zack harmlessly flirting makes him a less likeable character tho. I mean, have you played FF9? Zidane goes from despairing over Garnet's coronation, and struggling to confess his feelings to her as a newly-minted Queen. Then immediately goes to Treno and signs up for the tetra master tournament just so he can meet and play against the "cute sailor girl" :D But no one denies his devotion to Garnet

Eerie said:
Edit: of course I read it on this very same website haha. cc @Odysseus
Interesting. This part is also something I haven't seen before.

Cloud: “I was disappointed in myself. When I left I made a promise, said I’d make it into SOLDIER, but I was just a regular grunt. I couldn’t bare to have to people in the village see me like that, so pathetic.”

Tifa: “What do you mean? It doesn’t matter if you didn’t make it into SOLDIER, as long as you tried your best.”

Cloud: “But I hated seeing myself like that. And I couldn’t stand myself even more for trying to hide it. Sephiroth hadn’t erased me from existence. Maybe I was already gone, ever since I tried to hide myself from my childhood friend. Sephiroth just took advantage of that…”

I wonder why they took it out.
 
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