SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Humming]

The diary is a nice detail, maybe it will come back later?

A little thing about Cloud's lies. I took them as typical awkward teenager behavior, when your friend asks you about some girl and your brain doesn't even dare to think of her as something else and you need to shut the conversation asap.

But the problem with shipping is that I find it harder to analyse objectively than other elements of a story, and the statement above may be based on my own experience at younger age, being clumsy and awkward in love/crush thingies.

@Eerie made a really good point about the devs needing to make Tifa notice the hints of a true Cloud to effectively feel attracted. But even if she fell in love initially (or at least show interest) with Ex-Soldier, that doesn't mean that her feelings are less valid as she gets closer and closer to the real Cloud as tje game advances, thus realising what made the attraction bloom into something different. And I think that the same can be adressed for Aerith, even if she noticed Cloud's similarities with Zack that made him stand out for her, that doesn't mean that what comes after that initial feeling is less valid. Both girls peek through the facade as the whole group grows closer.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I wasn't thinking of Maiden though

Where else, though, did Aerith ever express fondness for Cloud's awkwardness while also showing irritation towards Zack's flirtatiousness? That description immediately calls to mind an exchange between she and Zack in "Maiden," so I'm not surprised @eleamaya thought you were referencing it.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I get that. I thought it was mentioned in one of the Ultimanias that Cloud was awkward/dorky though with separate statement about the possibile concern about Zack and girls. I apologise for bad phrasing/responding on my part.

Besides I always thought Aerith was trying to figure things out through her questions to Marlene and as the journey through the game went on and some of her behaviours towards the end of disc one like she was trying to look out for Cloud, like a kid.

I also wanted to add I don't have a problem with flirting inherently in itself, I have been known to myself indulge here and there

 

[KindOfBlue]

Let me be weird, @KindOfBlue

If it makes you feel any better, this fanbase would be infinitely better if more shippers were as reasonable as you Eerie lol

I agree that this is very different; I always felt that in the OG, this was a big plothole, because it is THE memory Cloud uses to realise he's "Cloud of Nibelheim", but it was a memory she pushed him to remember. To me, they closed that plothole by making sure that he'd remembered by himself this time around.

I think the OG also kinda answers this too by not making the memory of the promise enough to bring the true Cloud out, but rather a memory that Tifa didn’t remember like everything involving her mom from Cloud’s POV

I wonder why they took it out.

I’m sure this has been addressed before but are there any conversations or character details that were scrapped in the OG but made it to the remake? I’d love to see stuff like this find it’s way back to the game

But even if she fell in love initially (or at least show interest) with Ex-Soldier, that doesn't mean that her feelings are less valid as she gets closer and closer to the real Cloud as tje game advances, thus realising what made the attraction bloom into something different.

I think this is the exact reason why the dialogue under the Highwind varies in the OG, because although the nature of their feelings for each other is romantic and isn’t determined by the player, the amount of intimacy expressed between them up until that point is. Which begs the question of although there are still some optional scenes between Cloud and Tifa (all of which are still canon if I’m not mistaken), is there really a point to having a low affection version of the under the Highwind scene this time?

 

[Eerie]

Don't they brush the newspapers line in the low affection scene? If they indeed do, they're scrapping it altogether, since Tifa already told Cloud in Remake that she looked them up to see if his name would pop up. I'm pretty sure we'll only get the high affection scene this time around.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Don't they brush the newspapers line in the low affection scene?

Are you asking if it comes up there? No, that's in the Lifestream sequence.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah I forgot what the low affection scene looks like lol.

 

[pigglesthepup]

For it to be a lie, I think we’d need to establish whether or not Cloud would have still made up the story about him being in SOLDIER without Jenova’s influence, and…well, there’s no way to prove that, I think.

Cloud does explain that the mix between the Jenova cells, Sephiroth’s will and his own weakness made him who he is, so I can’t really call him a liar if he himself actually believed it. The minor stuff he lies about like giving the flower to Tifa is just him being cagey but he actually believes he was a SOLDIER because Jenova basically uses Cloud’s weakness against him, making him susceptible to Sephiroth’s manipulation.

I do believe Cloud would've still lied if there was no plot about Sephiroth and the end of the world. I say this because he is an active character with his own wants. His lying wasn't intended as malicious, but to cover up his shame about his perceived failings. This is exactly what he says bridge of the Highwind, that he was ashamed that he had failed and that he made up a story to cover it. He literally says he's the one that created the illusion and that he's the master of it. Jenovaroth also didn't care about his existence more than the other clones until he had acquired the black materia. Jenovaroth also didn't convince the other clones they were SOLDIERs either, so why Cloud? Tifa also never conveys anything that she would only love Cloud if he was a SOLDIER, just that she was impressed by his desire to join. Cloud is the one who thought he needed to be SOLDIER to win her affections. Cloud also maintained a lot more agency than the other clones: when Zack was killed, he got up, crawled over to his dead body, grabbed his sword and cried into the sky. He then managed to make it the rest of the way to Midgar by himself. He springs to his feet when Tifa finds him. All the other clones are complete wrecks, spouting stuff about Reunion. Interacting with them changes nothing about their personalities or behaviors.

He had no idea this would this end up causing the apocalypse. He was just ashamed of himself and after have gone through a boatload of trauma, had a pretty bad case of PTSD. The thing he was originally after--Tifa--suddenly appears before him. He's physically built like a SOLDIER--that strength being the reason the organization appealed to him--and easily passes for one. He also would've have to revisit the trauma of being an experiment if he just assumed the identity of one. He has what he sent out to acquire for Tifa and can pretend a bunch of other bad stuff didn't happen. Two birds, one stone, why not just roll with it?

As far as LTD stuff goes (oh yeah, this is an LTD thread!) @Odysseus I think Cloud’s feelings are the crux of these arguments, it’s just that people seem to have wildly different and even contradictory ways of interpreting those feelings. So perhaps much like Cloud himself, some people who distort the story by self-inserting actually believe the story is what they think it is without realizing it.

And that's why I think it's important for this topic to understand Cloud is a complicit liar. He has his own agency with his own wants and he takes actions to achieve that. It all being Jenovaroth or the player makes him a completely empty vessel.

Interesting. This part is also something I haven't seen before.

I wonder why they took it out.

They may have found it to be redundant, since this is what is shown during the Lifestream sequence itself. They add some of it back in his explanation on the bridge.

Let me be weird, @KindOfBlue

The fact is that this time around... Sephiroth, the one from the future, wants Tifa gone. He doesn't want her around Cloud because she gives him strength, she's always been a "self" catalyst, so to speak, for Cloud. So not only does she helps him in the Lifestream to regain his true self, she's also the one able to push him to better himself (see: the save she does at the top of the Shinra tower). And that Sephiroth knows that - the normal one doesn't seem to especially care, I'd say. The way he tries to manipulate Cloud feels a tad different from the usual Sephiroth, so we'll have to see where this goes, but my gut feeling is that Tifa is the one who can protect Cloud's psyche against his manipulation.

You're correct that Sephiroth doesn't like Tifa and why. But she provides a whole lot of utility for manipulating Cloud. If Sephiroth were to just try to kill her outright, Cloud would just kill him. It's how he died the first time, to normal-human Cloud no less. So that option's out. Remember how it's her opinion that counts and her crisis of confidence in Cloud made him lose all confidence in himself and that's when his mind fully broke, rendering him into a vegetable? Remake makes the point the Cloud values Tifa's perception of him. That's what's going on with him asking her if it's a bad thing that he's "losing that hard edge." If I was this Sephiroth, I would make that fluke a feature of my plan, maneuvering her very carefully so that Cloud would indeed be rendered into a vegetable again.

I also noticed you talking about the Cloud's Jenova memory flashes. I actually see this as Cloud's conflict with himself. He's pathologically blocking out things that would disprove him as a SOLDIER or prove him as just a regular. If he doesn't hear it or see it, it didn't happen. It's like his own internal gaslighting.

I think this is the exact reason why the dialogue under the Highwind varies in the OG, because although the nature of their feelings for each other is romantic and isn’t determined by the player, the amount of intimacy expressed between them up until that point is. Which begs the question of although there are still some optional scenes between Cloud and Tifa (all of which are still canon if I’m not mistaken), is there really a point to having a low affection version of the under the Highwind scene this time?

No. Seeing as the date mechanic itself has been replaced with the side-quest system and all resulting discovery/resolution scenes are canon because they don't conflict with each other, there'd be no reason for a low-affection version. Just not getting the resolution that's the Remake version of high affection would count as that, but then that also means the playing didn't actually complete the game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

do believe Cloud would've still lied if there was no plot about Sephiroth and the end of the world. I say this because he is an active character with his own wants. His lying wasn't intended as malicious, but to cover up his shame about his perceived failings. This is exactly what he says bridge of the Highwind, that he was ashamed that he had failed and that he made up a story to cover it. He literally says he's the one that created the illusion and that he's the master of it. Jenovaroth also didn't care about his existence more than the other clones until he had acquired the black materia. Jenovaroth also didn't convince the other clones they were SOLDIERs either, so why Cloud? Tifa also never conveys anything that she would only love Cloud if he was a SOLDIER, just that she was impressed by his desire to join. Cloud is the one who thought he needed to be SOLDIER to win her affections. Cloud also maintained a lot more agency than the other clones: when Zack was killed, he got up, crawled over to his dead body, grabbed his sword and cried into the sky. He then managed to make it the rest of the way to Midgar by himself. He springs to his feet when Tifa finds him. All the other clones are complete wrecks, spouting stuff about Reunion. Interacting with them changes nothing about their personalities or behaviors.

That's absolutely false.

There's zero reason to assume he'd lie about his entire life and profession. Insecure or not.

In Crisis Core, when Cloud returned to Nibelheim he was honest with his Mom and Zack about not making SOLDIER and how it made him feel. What he chose to do instead, was just keep to himself. He didn't lie or try to get people to falsify his history.

That's a big difference between boldly lying to any and everyone and essentially pulling "stolen valor." It would easily be identified given he wasn't even Mako enhanced. Cloud isn't a liar who makes shit up to suit his needs like some con artist. Just because he felt ashamed of himself upon learning the truth of his Jenova cell and mako poisoned inspired false identity, doesn't mean he's culpable. He's feeling shame. Don't attribute that as some sort of reasoning he did it on purpose.

Again, I reiterate he was experimented on and Mako Poisoned to the point his original self was fractured beyond repair. The Jenova cells utilized their mimicry ability and the scatered fragments of his subconscious to make him functional. It's been explained and shown at length in various materials that Cloud's false persona was not conscious choice. Taking Cloud's guilt at face value is like believing he was responsible for killing Aerith. It makes no sense.

 

[KindOfBlue]

This is exactly what he says bridge of the Highwind, that he was ashamed that he had failed and that he made up a story to cover it. He literally says he's the one that created the illusion and that he's the master of it.

He then explains that the reason the illusion was so strong was because of Jenova and Sephiroth’s influence, I mean it’s one thing to create a fake story and play it off like it’s true but it’s another thing to have an evil, 2000-year-old alien possess your mind and cause your brain to create a false identity to fill in the missing gaps of your memories and personality

Jenovaroth also didn't care about his existence more than the other clones until he had acquired the black materia. Jenovaroth also didn't convince the other clones they were SOLDIERs either, so why Cloud?

Well the real answer is because Cloud is the main character lol but in-universe, I think Sephiroth’s attachment to Cloud goes back further than the black materia with Cloud killing him in Nibelheim

 

[pigglesthepup]

That's absolutely false.

There's zero reason to assume he'd lie about his entire life and profession. Insecure or not.

In Crisis Core, when Cloud returned to Nibelheim he was honest with his Mom and Zack about not making SOLDIER and how it made him feel. What he chose to do instead, was just keep to himself. He didn't lie or try to get people to falsify his history.

That's a big difference between boldly lying to any and everyone and essentially pulling "stolen valor." It would easily be identified given he wasn't even Mako enhanced. Cloud isn't a liar who makes shit up to suit his needs like some con artist. Just because he felt ashamed of himself upon learning the truth of his Jenova cell and mako poisoned inspired false identity, doesn't mean he's culpable. He's feeling shame. Don't attribute that as some sort of reasoning he did it on purpose.

Again, I reiterate he was experimented on and Mako Poisoned to the point his original self was fractured beyond repair. The Jenova cells utilized their mimicry ability and the scatered fragments of his subconscious to make him functional. It's been explained and shown at length in various materials that Cloud's false persona was not conscious choice. Taking Cloud's guilt at face value is like believing he was responsible for killing Aerith. It makes no sense.

I'm saying Cloud lied because he's human, not because he's a bad person. People lie about stuff they are ashamed of all the time. It is a completely normal self-defense mechanism. The point is he is a human being. Bad things have happened to him and he needs a way to cope with it to move forward.

He doesn't lie to Zack and his mom because he doesn't have a reason to, and even if he wanted to, he wouldn't be able to back it up. Really, why would he lie to them? I don't understand why they're examples.

The experiments screw him up exactly because his psyche is weak. He says that's why he couldn't make SOLDIER. And his weak psyche--the inability to properly deal with his shame--is the reason he goes along with this. He’s covering it up.

Cloud doesn't need to call himself a liar to "take responsibility." All he has to do is explain that his mind was messed up and he couldn't remember correctly. Why the confession of being complicit in this? Why did the writers put it in there as his coming clean speech? This is difference than feeling guilt over Aerith and Zack because the audience already knows it wasn't his fault. We did the writers reveal the truth to us about Cloud in this way? Why have him go on about being a liar?

Edit:

He then explains that the reason the illusion was so strong was because of Jenova and Sephiroth’s influence, I mean it’s one thing to create a fake story and play it off like it’s true but it’s another thing to have an evil, 2000-year-old alien possess your mind and cause your brain to create a false identity to fill in the missing gaps of your memories and personality

Because his self-confidence is too low to stop them. He has a weak sense of self, not in the "I don't remember" type of way, but in the way a victim of psychopath does: he could not reaffirm himself to break out on his own. Jenovaroth is a psychopath. This is a real thing in psychology; it's why abuse victims don't just run away from their abusers. He was easy prey, and that's why he wasn't able to stand up to make SOLDIER because he wouldn't have been able to stand up to that. Edit: Abuse victims justify their abuse. It’s why they stay.

Well the real answer is because Cloud is the main character lol but in-universe, I think Sephiroth’s attachment to Cloud goes back further than the black materia with Cloud killing him in Nibelheim

Lol @ being the main character. Why, of course! But it's only in the Remake that Sephiroth gives him that kind of attention, not in the OG.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm saying Cloud lied because he's human, not because he's a bad person. People lie about stuff they are ashamed of all the time. It is a completely normal self-defense mechanism. The point is he is a human being. Bad things have happened to him and he needs a way to cope with it to move forward.

There's a difference between human telling everyday lies and pulling stolen valor as a conscious choice.

You're falsely equivocating Cloud's egregiously big lie about himself as normal human behavior. And not because he was exhibiting essentially delusional symptoms. There's a significant difference between insecurities and outright delusional thinking. Saying he'd still do it without Jenova cells is essentially calling Cloud a fabulist. Malice is irrelevant. Like, that's simply not true and there's no evidence of that. Human or not.

He doesn't lie to Zack and his mom because he doesn't have a reason to, and even if he wanted to, he wouldn't be able to back it up. Really, why would he lie to them? I don't understand why they're examples.

Then if he has no reason to lie and has demonstrated no propensity for such behaviors, then quit falsely attributing lying to him? Telling such a big lie that's clearly verifiable would require either an innate streak of dishonesty or a severe mental illness. Cloud's FFVII situation is the latter. So where are you getting he'd do it without Jenova cells?

The experiments screw him up exactly because his psyche is weak. He says that's why he couldn't make SOLDIER. And his weak psyche--the inability to properly deal with his shame--is the reason he goes alone with this.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about the Jenova Project experiment and why Cloud succumbed to Mako Poisoning and created a false persona. Most people succumb to it because it's extremely dangerous, especially those injured and physically unfit. Only a few people exhibit the strength, will and ability to not lose their ego and consciousness from it all. Cloud being unable to withstand that procedure doesn't mean he's prone to being a liar or because he has self consciousness. It means his ego fractured under the strain of mako energy due to the circumstances around the procedure and being mentally unfit for it in the first place. The element of "shame" and inferiority is what the Jenova cells worked from to make a new personality because his mind was broken after being showered with mako energy.

From Cloud's FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile

Compilation Check

The Fate Befalling a “Puppet of Jenova.”

At the age of 16 Cloud was sent on a mission to his hometown of Nibelheim, where Sephiroth went out of control (what is commonly called the “Sephiroth Incident”). Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth. Even the Meteor crisis was indirectly caused by Cloud having become a puppet to Sephiroth. In FFVII Cloud finally regains his true self and defeats Sephiroth, but this doesn’t mean he’s completely freed from the will of Jenova, and in AC he is tormented by the Remnant’s call for the Reunion.

This makes it quite clear why he succumbed and what responsibility the Jenova cells had in crafting that false personality.

The FFVII Ultimania Omega translations

*Jenova's mimic ability*
Jenova has a mimic ability which allows it to read the memories and feelings
of others, then adjust its appearance, speech and behaviour accordingly to
imitate what it has seen. Jenova once used this ability to get close to the
Ancients and infect them with its virus, which killed many of them.

This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its
cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form.
Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered,
he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this
was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her
mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal
vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

Once again, Cloud's false persona was not some conscious choice or lie he held intentionally within his original persona. His mind was broken and utilizing Tifa's memories, and his idealized dream of himself born from his own feelings of inadequacy, he became the Cloud that was fake.

Jenova Relation 3: The Sephiroth Clones** (005.1C)
5 years ago, immediately after Sephiroth fell into the Mt. Nibel mako reactor,
Jenova's main body -- which had been left behind -- was utilized by Hojo for
an experiment. This plan -- which Hojo intended to use to prove his Jenova
Reunion Theory -- was called "the Sephiroth Clones Project."

The experiment's procedure -- which involved injecting cells taken from the
headless body of Jenova into the subjects and exposing them to mako -- doesn't
differ from the manufacturing procedure for SOLDIERs. The largest difference
is that SOLDIERs are selected from a prime field, being strong of mind and
body and able to withstand the experiment uninfluenced by Jenova's cells,
whereas the Clones' fragile minds leave them as "portions" of Jenova. The
subjects of the Sephiroth Clones Project were the survivors of the Nibelheim
incident, with absolutely no thought given to sorting them as with SOLDIER,
and -- being unable to maintain their egos -- they lose the ability to live a
normal human life.

Cloud not withstanding the procedure is because of several factors including his mind, body and the fact he just barely survived the Nibelheim Incident with life threatening injuries. His mental weakness primarily plays a part in the creation of his false identity thanks to the Jenova Cells. While mental weakness more than likely contributes some part of the inability to withstand the process, it also takes being physically strong and also a rare breed. Becoming SOLDIER is highly selective. That mental weakness was not the sole reason he ended up a Copy.

Lifestream Relation 3: SOLDIER*** (005.5C)
Shin-Ra's elite soldiers. The Turks scout to gather those who would be capable
of handling being injected with Jenova's cells and exposed to mako; those who
are gain a massive artificial increase in strength and ability. It is not
common to impose this procedure on one against their will, as the resulting
changes to their mind and body can be large, and they must be able to bear the
experiment's process in order to become a SOLDIER.

Once again, the process is selective and forcing someone to do it against their will is dangerous because it can result in damage to the person's mind. That's exactly what the Sephiroth Copy experiment did to Cloud and the others.

*Successful work, failure work*
As for the mentally and physically strong, carrying Jenova's cells inside
their bodies will not cause them to receive Jenova's influence, and they will
not become a puppet of Jenova like the Sephiroth Clones, but will instead
become a SOLDIER possessing strength far beyond that of a normal human being.

In Zack's case, he had already successfully received the SOLDIER procedure
previously, and undergoing experimentation as a Sephiroth Clone did not make
him into a puppet of Jenova; he retained his normal human behavior to the
end. However, unlike Zack, the residents of Nibelheim were perfect in the role
of Sephiroth Clones for Hojo's experiment. As for Cloud, like the other
residents of Nibelheim -- [who all became perfect] Sephiroth Clones -- being
unable to withstand the SOLDIER treatments, he could not retain himself and
his mind completely collapsed. When reunited with Tifa in Midgar, though, the
coherence of being normal would return to him and he would gain a personality
that essentially let him be his own person, even if confusion would come of
it.

Given the fact that the Nibelheim survivors were ordinary people who had been grievously injured and were being subjugated to the SOLDIER process against their will. Yes. All of them including Cloud became copies. Being exposed to mako like that would be the equivalent of exposing normal people to radiation and them getting cancer. Zack was special because he was already superhuman and endured the process already. Cloud's inability to cope with it isn't just because he's mentally frail. Unless you think every single inhabitant of Nibelheim was as mentally frail as he was.

So once again. No. Cloud's not responsible or likely to lie, as you claim. Him telling that falsehood about achieving his dream is not a conscious choice nor predictive of what he would do if never experimented on in the first place.

 

[pigglesthepup]

There's a difference between human telling everyday lies and pulling stolen valor as a conscious choice.

You're falsely equivocating Cloud's egregiously big lie about himself as normal human behavior. And not because he was exhibiting essentially delusional symptoms. There's a significant difference between insecurities and outright delusional thinking. Saying he'd still do it without Jenova cells is essentially calling Cloud a fabulist. Malice is irrelevant. Like, that's simply not true and there's no evidence of that. Human or not.

He's randomly found by Tifa at a train station while he's in pretty rough shape. He needs an explanation that he's willing to give. It wasn't a big lie at the time. He also knows he can get work if people know him as a former SOLDIER. He's not looking to be malicious, he's looking to get by. He most definitely has PTSD, but he's gotta find a way to cope.

Then if he has no reason to lie and has demonstrated no propensity for such behaviors, then quit falsely attributing lying to him? Telling such a big lie that's clearly verifiable would require either an innate streak of dishonesty or a severe mental illness. Cloud's FFVII situation is the latter. So where are you getting he'd do it without Jenova cells?

I'm getting that he would do it regardless from what is his "sealed up, secret wish" shown in the Lifestream sequence where he shows why making SOLDIER was so important to him and his later confession on the bridge where he says that he made it up because he was ashamed that he failed. These are things that are stated by Cloud himself. Should not believe him on this? Should I also believe that he actually was in SOLDIER? Let me frame it for you this way: if, in the same speech where he shows knowledge of the Jenova Project and exactly what a Sephiroth clone is, that he also says he made up that he was a SOLDIER as a way to "take responsibility" for what's happened, what does this mean? He knows the truth about himself, but he's telling the others something else. Do you know what that is? Lying. And this reason for lying is just bizarre, on the same level of telling himself he's responsible for Aerith and Zack's deaths. Where does this end?

Yes, Cloud is very sick. He's been traumatized to the brink. He's not only got his own pre-existing psychological issues with a bunch of bad experiences on top of that, but a psychopath foreign alien voice to join in. I, too, would just would want to try to make the best of things and survive.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about the Jenova Project experiment and why Cloud succumbed to Mako Poisoning and created a false persona. Most people succumb to it because it's extremely dangerous, especially those injured and physically unfit. Only a few people exhibit the strength, will and ability to not lose their ego and consciousness from it all. Cloud being unable to withstand that procedure doesn't mean he's prone to being a liar or because he has self consciousness. It means his ego fractured under the strain of mako energy due to the circumstances around the procedure and being mentally unfit for it in the first place. The element of "shame" and inferiority is what the Jenova cells worked from to make a new personality because his mind was broken after being showered with mako energy.

From Cloud's FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile



This makes it quite clear why he succumbed and what responsibility the Jenova cells had in crafting that false personality.

The FFVII Ultimania Omega translations



Once again, Cloud's false persona was not some conscious choice or lie he held intentionally within his original persona. His mind was broken and utilizing Tifa's memories, and his idealized dream of himself born from his own feelings of inadequacy, he became the Cloud that was fake.



Cloud not withstanding the procedure is because of several factors including his mind, body and the fact he just barely survived the Nibelheim Incident with life threatening injuries. His mental weakness primarily plays a part in the creation of his false identity thanks to the Jenova Cells. While mental weakness more than likely contributes some part of the inability to withstand the process, it also takes being physically strong and also a rare breed. Becoming SOLDIER is highly selective. That mental weakness was not the sole reason he ended up a Copy.



Once again, the process is selective and forcing someone to do it against their will is dangerous because it can result in damage to the person's mind. That's exactly what the Sephiroth Copy experiment did to Cloud and the others.



Given the fact that the Nibelheim survivors were ordinary people who had been grievously injured and were being subjugated to the SOLDIER process against their will. Yes. All of them including Cloud became copies. Being exposed to mako like that would be the equivalent of exposing normal people to radiation and them getting cancer. Zack was special because he was already superhuman and endured the process already. Cloud's inability to cope with it isn't just because he's mentally frail. Unless you think every single inhabitant of Nibelheim was as mentally frail as he was.

So once again. No. Cloud's not responsible or likely to lie, as you claim. Him telling that falsehood about achieving his dream is not a conscious choice nor predictive of what he would do if never experimented on in the first place.

Supplemental materials are fantastic. They great for insight to the creation process for a piece of work. That's why I collect them, too (I like art books). But it's that's piece of work, the final product, that matter the most because that's the creators' intended message for the audience.

Prove your point to me within the context of the game itself. I have used it to make my case. Please do it for your's.

 

[frosty]

So what I'm getting from this whole discussion is:

• Will True Cloud lie in a malicious, hurtful, designed-to-make-himself-grandiose and deceitful manner? No. For example, True Cloud would not say "Hey Zack, lend me your uniform for a couple of days while we're in Nibelheim. You see, I've a chick to impress"
• Does True Cloud have a personality type that is susceptible to acute feelings of shame, and self-loathing that would make Jenova take advantage of him easily, unfortunately leading to bigger untruths? Yes
• Does True Cloud's feelings of shame and general awkwardness lead him to small lies...say, responding to who he gives flowers to, and if he has feelings for someone. Yes
• Is True Cloud willing to tell little white lies to cover a friend's behind i.e. in Jessie's case, and saying "Don't recall" when Tifa feels uncomfortable talking about Don Corneo, when Barret asks: Yes

• Is True Cloud a pathological liar: Actually, No
• Is True Cloud willing to lie, situationally: Actually, Yes

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

TBH I don't see why the fact that Cloud lies is such an issue. Name me a major character in this game who doesn't lie. Lying is human nature. Everybody tells lies, big and small. Within the context of a work of a fiction, the lies a character tells are only objectionable if

a) they are out of character

b) the plot depends on them telling a lie or keeping a secret which they would have no motivation to do. For example, Tifa's failure to tell Cloud that it's been seven years since he left Nibelheim, not five. The writers need to give her a reason to keep that piece of information secret, and they do: she's worried about his mental health and what might happened if she punctured his illusions.

 

[pigglesthepup]

So what I'm getting from this whole discussion is:

• Will True Cloud lie in a malicious, hurtful, designed-to-make-himself-grandiose and deceitful manner? No. For example, True Cloud would not say "Hey Zack, lend me your uniform for a couple of days while we're in Nibelheim. You see, I've a chick to impress"
• Does True Cloud have a personality type that is susceptible to acute feelings of shame, and self-loathing that would make Jenova take advantage of him easily, unfortunately leading to bigger untruths? Yes
• Does True Cloud's feelings of shame and general awkwardness lead him to small lies...say, responding to who he gives flowers to, and if he has feelings for someone. Yes
• Is True Cloud willing to tell little white lies to cover a friend's behind i.e. in Jessie's case, and saying "Don't recall" when Tifa feels uncomfortable talking about Don Corneo, when Barret asks: Yes

• Is True Cloud a pathological liar: Actually, No
• Is True Cloud willing to lie, situationally: Actually, Yes

Yes, yes, yes. Unfortuntely for him, he ends causing the apocalypse. It's not that he meant to. It just happened that way.

TBH I don't see why the fact that Cloud lies is such an issue. Name me a major character in this game who doesn't lie. Lying is human nature. Everybody tells lies, big and small. Within the context of a work of a fiction, the lies a character tells are only objectionable if

a) they are out of character

b) the plot depends on them telling a lie or keeping a secret which they would have no motivation to do. For example, Tifa's failure to tell Cloud that it's been seven years since he left Nibelheim, not five. The writers need to give her a reason to keep that piece of information secret, and they do: she's worried about his mental health and what might happened if she punctured his illusions.

Cloud lying makes him a more compelling character because of exactly what you say: it's human nature. He's the main protagonist. We're suppose to sympathize with him. And that's probably the writers had him lie instead of only being a Jenovaroth vessel. Because who cares about that?

 

[Makoeyes987]

He's randomly found by Tifa at a train station while he's in pretty rough shape. He needs an explanation that he's willing to give. It wasn't a big lie at the time. He also knows he can get work if people know him as a former SOLDIER. He's not looking to be malicious, he's looking to get by. He most definitely has PTSD, but he's gotta find a way to cope.

That's literally not how it happened though. No conscious thought or intentionality went into him calling himself a SOLDIER. He is akin to a mako poisoned vegetable, and is puppeted to create that persona by Jenova cells.

So there was no consideration towards "getting work" in saying he was a SOLDIER to Tifa or other people. Are you not reading the explanations given to you..?

I'm getting that he would do it regardless from what is his "sealed up, secret wish" shown in the Lifestream sequence where he shows why making SOLDIER was so important to him and his later confession on the bridge where he says that he made it up because he was ashamed that he failed. These are things that are stated by Cloud himself. Should not believe him on this? Should I also believe that he actually was in SOLDIER? Let me frame it for you this way: if, in the same speech where he shows knowledge of the Jenova Project and exactly what a Sephiroth clone is, that he also says he made up that he was a SOLDIER as a way to "take responsibility" for what's happened, what does this mean? He knows the truth about himself, but he's telling the others something else. Do you know what that is? Lying. And this reason for lying is just bizarre, on the same level of telling himself he's responsible for Aerith and Zack's deaths. Where does this end?

Well you're completely wrong. It being "important to him" does not indicate that he would lie about it, as shown in Crisis Core.

Plenty of individuals hold goals or promises central to their growth, but don't boldly lie to others when they fall short. Not seeing how you don't understand his feelings of guilt and shame at the truth being unfolded like it was within the story. He can be aware of the truth yet still hold himself to account over being weak.

Cloud
Everyone...... I'm sorry. I don't know what to say......

Nanaki
Don't say anything, Cloud. All you've been doing is apologizing.

Cloud
I never was in SOLDIER.
I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER.
I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to SOLDIER......
I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from my friend Zack...
And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life......
And I continued to play the charade as if it were true.

Cloud
I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER.
Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult.
It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.
You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy.
Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......
For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER.
It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion.
But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing.
The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weakness are what created me.
Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud.
......the master of my own illusionary world.
But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more......
I'm going to live my life without pretending.

"Get lost in the whole thing... The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weakness"

I simply don't get why you can't separate the guilt and self deprecation in his words from the reality of the narrative. Cloud had no choice in the matter. Unless you think he wanted to give the Black Materia to Sephiroth, or nearly chop Aerith's head off deep down in his heart.

You're taking what he says to the party about his own personal hang ups and perspective as rote fact. When you have the text itself, Lifestream sequence flashbacks of the truth and the hidden cutscene of Zack and Cloud's experimentation and escape within the Shinra Manor, telling you otherwise.

Again.

From Cloud's FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile

Compilation Check

The Fate Befalling a “Puppet of Jenova.”

At the age of 16 Cloud was sent on a mission to his hometown of Nibelheim, where Sephiroth went out of control (what is commonly called the “Sephiroth Incident”). Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth. Even the Meteor crisis was indirectly caused by Cloud having become a puppet to Sephiroth. In FFVII Cloud finally regains his true self and defeats Sephiroth, but this doesn’t mean he’s completely freed from the will of Jenova, and in AC he is tormented by the Remnant’s call for the Reunion.

This isn't even a debate. He was not in control of his actions or mind. It doesn't matter how self-deprecating or guilty he feels. Unless you're willing to argue Cloud was responsible for letting Aerith die, he simply was not.

Yes, Cloud is very sick. He's been traumatized to the brink. He's not only got his own pre-existing psychological issues with a bunch of bad experiences on top of that, but a psychopath foreign alien voice to join in. I, too, would just would want to try to make the best of things and survive.

There was no "making the best of things" as repeatedly showcased by the text and supplemental materials of said text. You are again attributing intentionality where none existed.

Supplemental materials are fantastic. They great for insight to the creation process for a piece of work. That's why I collect them, too (I like art books). But it's that's piece of work, the final product, that matter the most because that's the creators' intended message for the audience.

Prove your point to me within the context of the game itself. I have used it to make my case. Please do it for your's.

The context of the game's entire narrative is reinforced by said text written by the authors themselves. I'm not going to argue reality of what's the story and the canon that supports it. That's been done before for years. If you don't want to agree with it and ignore the narrative all while riding on a rushed localized script job, that's your own, frankly silly, prerogative. But that's the understanding the fandom, the writers, and everyone else following the narrative goes by. If you want to craft your own headcannon and play in it, thats for you to do on your own.

 

[Eerie]

I also noticed you talking about the Cloud's Jenova memory flashes. I actually see this as Cloud's conflict with himself. He's pathologically blocking out things that would disprove him as a SOLDIER or prove him as just a regular. If he doesn't hear it or see it, it didn't happen. It's like his own internal gaslighting.

Just to come back on this, this is clearly Jenova manipulating his memories because in Intermission they have inserted a green flash before the memory. So, he tries to remember and to cover up and push in the illusion of being a successful SOLDIER, Jenova inserts what is Cloud's deepest wish, to render the illusion of his fake persona perfect.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Just to come back on this, this is clearly Jenova manipulating his memories because in Intermission they have inserted a green flash before the memory. So, he tries to remember and to cover up and push in the illusion of being a successful SOLDIER, Jenova inserts what is Cloud's deepest wish, to render the illusion of his fake persona perfect.

You mean Intergrade. Intermission is the Yuffie episode.

And the sample pages from the FFVII-R Ultimania Plus that includes the Intergrade and Intermission content clarifies this distinction as well. That was a false memory created by the Jenova Cells in Cloud's head.

It wasn't Cloud's "internal gaslighting."

 

[null]

a rushed localized script job

Is the dialogue mistranslated?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Is the dialogue mistranslated?

Most of the localized script either was rushed or worst, so I find it odd when people cling to it solely as if it's gospel when there's dozens of examples of it either misconstruing or getting dialogue wrong compared to the Japanese text. It's putting faith in one of the most rushed script jobs of the PS era Final Fantasies.

 

[null]

Well I know FF7 was so rushed they left the debugger in. And text data was still (relatively) resource intensive at the time, so it makes sense to elaborate in a companion guide. And this is the localization team that shipped "this guy are sick".

I understand why people hate companion guides. I feel the same way as David Lynch about works standing on their own. That if you don't get the point across in the source medium, you failed as a storyteller. But JRPGs and anime/manga just don't operate on that mentality. You're expected to read the extra materials (random shit like movie pamphlets are canon... looking at you Code Geass)... and know Japanese, honestly, or really trust someone who does.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, Japanese stories often span across various media, which is weird to us, but expected there. So Ultimania, novels, mangas... whatever is part of the canon story or explaining it is canon and should be treated as such. And quite frankly given the level of the mistranslations in the OG - some of which are really harmful to understand the characters and their motivations - it's not that bad to get a side companion book in this case.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It hardly makes for a level playing field when discussing the game, though. Not everybody has access to these resources. Language, finances, location are all barriers. I agree that it's reasonable to bring all the available evidence to a discussion. But it's also not unreasonable to want to discuss a game as if it were a complete experience in its own right.

That's why these discussion sometimes make me feel as if I've wandered into the mediaeval Sorbonne and am listening to a group of scholastics disputing the nature of the Trinity, triumphantly trumping each other with ever more obscure references to sixth century Irish monks or Persian philosophers.

 

[Eerie]

This used to be true, I agree. But nowadays, you can find all the resources for free online. If you don't know where, you just have to ask. When someone brings these materials, you can't say that it's not canon, that it doesn't make sense, etc. They are proofs just as the game is. I have revised several times what I thought about the OG and the characters, notably, because of these, and it's ok because it's how the information they deliver should be treated; they give you a new angle, a tool to understand the message. You can't refuse them just because the badly translated game says something not right. How many times did we have to fight to say that Tifa did not reject Cloud from her group of friends? To this day, people still lash at her for this. Yet it is not true. But she gets a looooooooot of hate for this.