Maidenofwar
They/Them
I wasn't thinking of Maiden though
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Where else, though, did Aerith ever express fondness for Cloud's awkwardness while also showing irritation towards Zack's flirtatiousness? That description immediately calls to mind an exchange between she and Zack in "Maiden," so I'm not surprised @eleamaya thought you were referencing it.I wasn't thinking of Maiden though
If it makes you feel any better, this fanbase would be infinitely better if more shippers were as reasonable as you Eerie lolLet me be weird, @KindOfBlue
I think the OG also kinda answers this too by not making the memory of the promise enough to bring the true Cloud out, but rather a memory that Tifa didn’t remember like everything involving her mom from Cloud’s POVI agree that this is very different; I always felt that in the OG, this was a big plothole, because it is THE memory Cloud uses to realise he's "Cloud of Nibelheim", but it was a memory she pushed him to remember. To me, they closed that plothole by making sure that he'd remembered by himself this time around.
I’m sure this has been addressed before but are there any conversations or character details that were scrapped in the OG but made it to the remake? I’d love to see stuff like this find it’s way back to the gameI wonder why they took it out.
I think this is the exact reason why the dialogue under the Highwind varies in the OG, because although the nature of their feelings for each other is romantic and isn’t determined by the player, the amount of intimacy expressed between them up until that point is. Which begs the question of although there are still some optional scenes between Cloud and Tifa (all of which are still canon if I’m not mistaken), is there really a point to having a low affection version of the under the Highwind scene this time?But even if she fell in love initially (or at least show interest) with Ex-Soldier, that doesn't mean that her feelings are less valid as she gets closer and closer to the real Cloud as tje game advances, thus realising what made the attraction bloom into something different.
Are you asking if it comes up there? No, that's in the Lifestream sequence.Don't they brush the newspapers line in the low affection scene?
For it to be a lie, I think we’d need to establish whether or not Cloud would have still made up the story about him being in SOLDIER without Jenova’s influence, and…well, there’s no way to prove that, I think.
Cloud does explain that the mix between the Jenova cells, Sephiroth’s will and his own weakness made him who he is, so I can’t really call him a liar if he himself actually believed it. The minor stuff he lies about like giving the flower to Tifa is just him being cagey but he actually believes he was a SOLDIER because Jenova basically uses Cloud’s weakness against him, making him susceptible to Sephiroth’s manipulation.
As far as LTD stuff goes (oh yeah, this is an LTD thread!) @Odysseus I think Cloud’s feelings are the crux of these arguments, it’s just that people seem to have wildly different and even contradictory ways of interpreting those feelings. So perhaps much like Cloud himself, some people who distort the story by self-inserting actually believe the story is what they think it is without realizing it.
Let me be weird, @KindOfBlue
The fact is that this time around... Sephiroth, the one from the future, wants Tifa gone. He doesn't want her around Cloud because she gives him strength, she's always been a "self" catalyst, so to speak, for Cloud. So not only does she helps him in the Lifestream to regain his true self, she's also the one able to push him to better himself (see: the save she does at the top of the Shinra tower). And that Sephiroth knows that - the normal one doesn't seem to especially care, I'd say. The way he tries to manipulate Cloud feels a tad different from the usual Sephiroth, so we'll have to see where this goes, but my gut feeling is that Tifa is the one who can protect Cloud's psyche against his manipulation.
I think this is the exact reason why the dialogue under the Highwind varies in the OG, because although the nature of their feelings for each other is romantic and isn’t determined by the player, the amount of intimacy expressed between them up until that point is. Which begs the question of although there are still some optional scenes between Cloud and Tifa (all of which are still canon if I’m not mistaken), is there really a point to having a low affection version of the under the Highwind scene this time?
do believe Cloud would've still lied if there was no plot about Sephiroth and the end of the world. I say this because he is an active character with his own wants. His lying wasn't intended as malicious, but to cover up his shame about his perceived failings. This is exactly what he says bridge of the Highwind, that he was ashamed that he had failed and that he made up a story to cover it. He literally says he's the one that created the illusion and that he's the master of it. Jenovaroth also didn't care about his existence more than the other clones until he had acquired the black materia. Jenovaroth also didn't convince the other clones they were SOLDIERs either, so why Cloud? Tifa also never conveys anything that she would only love Cloud if he was a SOLDIER, just that she was impressed by his desire to join. Cloud is the one who thought he needed to be SOLDIER to win her affections. Cloud also maintained a lot more agency than the other clones: when Zack was killed, he got up, crawled over to his dead body, grabbed his sword and cried into the sky. He then managed to make it the rest of the way to Midgar by himself. He springs to his feet when Tifa finds him. All the other clones are complete wrecks, spouting stuff about Reunion. Interacting with them changes nothing about their personalities or behaviors.
He then explains that the reason the illusion was so strong was because of Jenova and Sephiroth’s influence, I mean it’s one thing to create a fake story and play it off like it’s true but it’s another thing to have an evil, 2000-year-old alien possess your mind and cause your brain to create a false identity to fill in the missing gaps of your memories and personalityThis is exactly what he says bridge of the Highwind, that he was ashamed that he had failed and that he made up a story to cover it. He literally says he's the one that created the illusion and that he's the master of it.
Well the real answer is because Cloud is the main character lol but in-universe, I think Sephiroth’s attachment to Cloud goes back further than the black materia with Cloud killing him in NibelheimJenovaroth also didn't care about his existence more than the other clones until he had acquired the black materia. Jenovaroth also didn't convince the other clones they were SOLDIERs either, so why Cloud?
That's absolutely false.
There's zero reason to assume he'd lie about his entire life and profession. Insecure or not.
In Crisis Core, when Cloud returned to Nibelheim he was honest with his Mom and Zack about not making SOLDIER and how it made him feel. What he chose to do instead, was just keep to himself. He didn't lie or try to get people to falsify his history.
That's a big difference between boldly lying to any and everyone and essentially pulling "stolen valor." It would easily be identified given he wasn't even Mako enhanced. Cloud isn't a liar who makes shit up to suit his needs like some con artist. Just because he felt ashamed of himself upon learning the truth of his Jenova cell and mako poisoned inspired false identity, doesn't mean he's culpable. He's feeling shame. Don't attribute that as some sort of reasoning he did it on purpose.
Again, I reiterate he was experimented on and Mako Poisoned to the point his original self was fractured beyond repair. The Jenova cells utilized their mimicry ability and the scatered fragments of his subconscious to make him functional. It's been explained and shown at length in various materials that Cloud's false persona was not conscious choice. Taking Cloud's guilt at face value is like believing he was responsible for killing Aerith. It makes no sense.
He then explains that the reason the illusion was so strong was because of Jenova and Sephiroth’s influence, I mean it’s one thing to create a fake story and play it off like it’s true but it’s another thing to have an evil, 2000-year-old alien possess your mind and cause your brain to create a false identity to fill in the missing gaps of your memories and personality
Well the real answer is because Cloud is the main character lol but in-universe, I think Sephiroth’s attachment to Cloud goes back further than the black materia with Cloud killing him in Nibelheim
I'm saying Cloud lied because he's human, not because he's a bad person. People lie about stuff they are ashamed of all the time. It is a completely normal self-defense mechanism. The point is he is a human being. Bad things have happened to him and he needs a way to cope with it to move forward.
He doesn't lie to Zack and his mom because he doesn't have a reason to, and even if he wanted to, he wouldn't be able to back it up. Really, why would he lie to them? I don't understand why they're examples.
The experiments screw him up exactly because his psyche is weak. He says that's why he couldn't make SOLDIER. And his weak psyche--the inability to properly deal with his shame--is the reason he goes alone with this.
Compilation Check
The Fate Befalling a “Puppet of Jenova.”
At the age of 16 Cloud was sent on a mission to his hometown of Nibelheim, where Sephiroth went out of control (what is commonly called the “Sephiroth Incident”). Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth. Even the Meteor crisis was indirectly caused by Cloud having become a puppet to Sephiroth. In FFVII Cloud finally regains his true self and defeats Sephiroth, but this doesn’t mean he’s completely freed from the will of Jenova, and in AC he is tormented by the Remnant’s call for the Reunion.
FFVII Ultimania Omega said:*Jenova's mimic ability*
Jenova has a mimic ability which allows it to read the memories and feelings
of others, then adjust its appearance, speech and behaviour accordingly to
imitate what it has seen. Jenova once used this ability to get close to the
Ancients and infect them with its virus, which killed many of them.
This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its
cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form.
Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered,
he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" (-->P.13); this
was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her
mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal
vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.
FFVII Ultimania Omega said:Jenova Relation 3: The Sephiroth Clones** (005.1C)
5 years ago, immediately after Sephiroth fell into the Mt. Nibel mako reactor,
Jenova's main body -- which had been left behind -- was utilized by Hojo for
an experiment. This plan -- which Hojo intended to use to prove his Jenova
Reunion Theory -- was called "the Sephiroth Clones Project."
The experiment's procedure -- which involved injecting cells taken from the
headless body of Jenova into the subjects and exposing them to mako -- doesn't
differ from the manufacturing procedure for SOLDIERs. The largest difference
is that SOLDIERs are selected from a prime field, being strong of mind and
body and able to withstand the experiment uninfluenced by Jenova's cells,
whereas the Clones' fragile minds leave them as "portions" of Jenova. The
subjects of the Sephiroth Clones Project were the survivors of the Nibelheim
incident, with absolutely no thought given to sorting them as with SOLDIER,
and -- being unable to maintain their egos -- they lose the ability to live a
normal human life.
FFVII Ultimania Omega said:Lifestream Relation 3: SOLDIER*** (005.5C)
Shin-Ra's elite soldiers. The Turks scout to gather those who would be capable
of handling being injected with Jenova's cells and exposed to mako; those who
are gain a massive artificial increase in strength and ability. It is not
common to impose this procedure on one against their will, as the resulting
changes to their mind and body can be large, and they must be able to bear the
experiment's process in order to become a SOLDIER.
FFVII Ultimania Omega said:*Successful work, failure work*
As for the mentally and physically strong, carrying Jenova's cells inside
their bodies will not cause them to receive Jenova's influence, and they will
not become a puppet of Jenova like the Sephiroth Clones, but will instead
become a SOLDIER possessing strength far beyond that of a normal human being.
In Zack's case, he had already successfully received the SOLDIER procedure
previously, and undergoing experimentation as a Sephiroth Clone did not make
him into a puppet of Jenova; he retained his normal human behavior to the
end. However, unlike Zack, the residents of Nibelheim were perfect in the role
of Sephiroth Clones for Hojo's experiment. As for Cloud, like the other
residents of Nibelheim -- [who all became perfect] Sephiroth Clones -- being
unable to withstand the SOLDIER treatments, he could not retain himself and
his mind completely collapsed. When reunited with Tifa in Midgar, though, the
coherence of being normal would return to him and he would gain a personality
that essentially let him be his own person, even if confusion would come of
it.
There's a difference between human telling everyday lies and pulling stolen valor as a conscious choice.
You're falsely equivocating Cloud's egregiously big lie about himself as normal human behavior. And not because he was exhibiting essentially delusional symptoms. There's a significant difference between insecurities and outright delusional thinking. Saying he'd still do it without Jenova cells is essentially calling Cloud a fabulist. Malice is irrelevant. Like, that's simply not true and there's no evidence of that. Human or not.
Then if he has no reason to lie and has demonstrated no propensity for such behaviors, then quit falsely attributing lying to him? Telling such a big lie that's clearly verifiable would require either an innate streak of dishonesty or a severe mental illness. Cloud's FFVII situation is the latter. So where are you getting he'd do it without Jenova cells?
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about the Jenova Project experiment and why Cloud succumbed to Mako Poisoning and created a false persona. Most people succumb to it because it's extremely dangerous, especially those injured and physically unfit. Only a few people exhibit the strength, will and ability to not lose their ego and consciousness from it all. Cloud being unable to withstand that procedure doesn't mean he's prone to being a liar or because he has self consciousness. It means his ego fractured under the strain of mako energy due to the circumstances around the procedure and being mentally unfit for it in the first place. The element of "shame" and inferiority is what the Jenova cells worked from to make a new personality because his mind was broken after being showered with mako energy.
From Cloud's FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Profile
This makes it quite clear why he succumbed and what responsibility the Jenova cells had in crafting that false personality.
The FFVII Ultimania Omega translations
Once again, Cloud's false persona was not some conscious choice or lie he held intentionally within his original persona. His mind was broken and utilizing Tifa's memories, and his idealized dream of himself born from his own feelings of inadequacy, he became the Cloud that was fake.
Cloud not withstanding the procedure is because of several factors including his mind, body and the fact he just barely survived the Nibelheim Incident with life threatening injuries. His mental weakness primarily plays a part in the creation of his false identity thanks to the Jenova Cells. While mental weakness more than likely contributes some part of the inability to withstand the process, it also takes being physically strong and also a rare breed. Becoming SOLDIER is highly selective. That mental weakness was not the sole reason he ended up a Copy.
Once again, the process is selective and forcing someone to do it against their will is dangerous because it can result in damage to the person's mind. That's exactly what the Sephiroth Copy experiment did to Cloud and the others.
Given the fact that the Nibelheim survivors were ordinary people who had been grievously injured and were being subjugated to the SOLDIER process against their will. Yes. All of them including Cloud became copies. Being exposed to mako like that would be the equivalent of exposing normal people to radiation and them getting cancer. Zack was special because he was already superhuman and endured the process already. Cloud's inability to cope with it isn't just because he's mentally frail. Unless you think every single inhabitant of Nibelheim was as mentally frail as he was.
So once again. No. Cloud's not responsible or likely to lie, as you claim. Him telling that falsehood about achieving his dream is not a conscious choice nor predictive of what he would do if never experimented on in the first place.
So what I'm getting from this whole discussion is:
- Will True Cloud lie in a malicious, hurtful, designed-to-make-himself-grandiose and deceitful manner? No. For example, True Cloud would not say "Hey Zack, lend me your uniform for a couple of days while we're in Nibelheim. You see, I've a chick to impress"
- Does True Cloud have a personality type that is susceptible to acute feelings of shame, and self-loathing that would make Jenova take advantage of him easily, unfortunately leading to bigger untruths? Yes
- Does True Cloud's feelings of shame and general awkwardness lead him to small lies...say, responding to who he gives flowers to, and if he has feelings for someone. Yes
- Is True Cloud willing to tell little white lies to cover a friend's behind i.e. in Jessie's case, and saying "Don't recall" when Tifa feels uncomfortable talking about Don Corneo, when Barret asks: Yes
- Is True Cloud a pathological liar: Actually, No
- Is True Cloud willing to lie, situationally: Actually, Yes
TBH I don't see why the fact that Cloud lies is such an issue. Name me a major character in this game who doesn't lie. Lying is human nature. Everybody tells lies, big and small. Within the context of a work of a fiction, the lies a character tells are only objectionable if
a) they are out of character
b) the plot depends on them telling a lie or keeping a secret which they would have no motivation to do. For example, Tifa's failure to tell Cloud that it's been seven years since he left Nibelheim, not five. The writers need to give her a reason to keep that piece of information secret, and they do: she's worried about his mental health and what might happened if she punctured his illusions.
He's randomly found by Tifa at a train station while he's in pretty rough shape. He needs an explanation that he's willing to give. It wasn't a big lie at the time. He also knows he can get work if people know him as a former SOLDIER. He's not looking to be malicious, he's looking to get by. He most definitely has PTSD, but he's gotta find a way to cope.
I'm getting that he would do it regardless from what is his "sealed up, secret wish" shown in the Lifestream sequence where he shows why making SOLDIER was so important to him and his later confession on the bridge where he says that he made it up because he was ashamed that he failed. These are things that are stated by Cloud himself. Should not believe him on this? Should I also believe that he actually was in SOLDIER? Let me frame it for you this way: if, in the same speech where he shows knowledge of the Jenova Project and exactly what a Sephiroth clone is, that he also says he made up that he was a SOLDIER as a way to "take responsibility" for what's happened, what does this mean? He knows the truth about himself, but he's telling the others something else. Do you know what that is? Lying. And this reason for lying is just bizarre, on the same level of telling himself he's responsible for Aerith and Zack's deaths. Where does this end?
Cloud
Everyone...... I'm sorry. I don't know what to say......
Nanaki
Don't say anything, Cloud. All you've been doing is apologizing.
Cloud
I never was in SOLDIER.
I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER.
I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to SOLDIER......
I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from my friend Zack...
And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life......
And I continued to play the charade as if it were true.
Cloud
I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER.
Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult.
It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.
You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy.
Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......
For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER.
It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion.
But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing.
The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weakness are what created me.
Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud.
......the master of my own illusionary world.
But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more......
I'm going to live my life without pretending.
Compilation Check
The Fate Befalling a “Puppet of Jenova.”
At the age of 16 Cloud was sent on a mission to his hometown of Nibelheim, where Sephiroth went out of control (what is commonly called the “Sephiroth Incident”). Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth. Even the Meteor crisis was indirectly caused by Cloud having become a puppet to Sephiroth. In FFVII Cloud finally regains his true self and defeats Sephiroth, but this doesn’t mean he’s completely freed from the will of Jenova, and in AC he is tormented by the Remnant’s call for the Reunion.
Yes, Cloud is very sick. He's been traumatized to the brink. He's not only got his own pre-existing psychological issues with a bunch of bad experiences on top of that, but a psychopath foreign alien voice to join in. I, too, would just would want to try to make the best of things and survive.
Supplemental materials are fantastic. They great for insight to the creation process for a piece of work. That's why I collect them, too (I like art books). But it's that's piece of work, the final product, that matter the most because that's the creators' intended message for the audience.
Prove your point to me within the context of the game itself. I have used it to make my case. Please do it for your's.
I also noticed you talking about the Cloud's Jenova memory flashes. I actually see this as Cloud's conflict with himself. He's pathologically blocking out things that would disprove him as a SOLDIER or prove him as just a regular. If he doesn't hear it or see it, it didn't happen. It's like his own internal gaslighting.
Just to come back on this, this is clearly Jenova manipulating his memories because in Intermission they have inserted a green flash before the memory. So, he tries to remember and to cover up and push in the illusion of being a successful SOLDIER, Jenova inserts what is Cloud's deepest wish, to render the illusion of his fake persona perfect.
a rushed localized script job
Is the dialogue mistranslated?