SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[null]

"I think holding hands is stronger than a kiss. It's obviously a romantic scene. And the ride's holding hands scene actually cross referenced with the ending where aeirth holds cloud hands back to back"

in what world does this make any sense at all?

The land of Copiumhagen, Denialmark

I have devised a straightforward test for analyzing difficult scenes like these. It's called "what would make my wife divorce me faster". Holding hands or kissing. (Hypothetically, obviously.) So If I'm standing back to back holding hands with a pretty extrovert I just met a few weeks ago, yeah I'm probably not talking my way out of that. Although she might buy "but we were teleporting or... something? I don't know. I'm not even sure if I imagined it" but I probably need Sephiroth to back me up on that.

But if I got caught hugging and kissing the girl next door turned fitness model? On a gondala with fireworks and music? I'd get the future earnings kicked out of me faster than you could say Starshower.

 

[Graymouse]

​

there's are big and important differences between Aerith and Tifa's date scenes, and not even Tifa's kiss:

With Aerith constantly reaches out to Cloud, ultimately moving beside him and cuddling up against his arm. She is always initiating contact.

Tifa on the other hand is much more reserved. In this scene, she subtly tells him how she feels, sitting 2 feet away while staring down at her lap with her hands clasped. HE reaches out his hand to HER, pulls HER in for a hug, and HE initiates a kiss with her. Cloud makes the choice to become closer to Tifa, he's not simply tolerating affectionate behaviors being thrown on him.

The only thing Tifa does is reach out and grab the hand extended to her before he pulls her in for a hug and then kisses her.

 

[Empyrea]

"why does Aerith and Cloud not get a kiss? because dramatic build up. They are saving up overtly romantic gestures between Aerith and Cloud in the last game. If you know anything about Asian dramas this is how it should go. The CxT kiss is just bait for

Ehhhh... Not all Asian dramas save the kiss for the very literal end. Hell, I've seen anime pull off a kiss between the romantic leads really early.

 

[Empyrea]

The only thing Tifa does is reach out and grab the hand extended to her before he pulls her in for a hug and then kisses her.

I really love this because it’s super sweet of him to wait for Tifa to essentially say "yes" before pulling her in for a hug and kiss her. The romantic sap in me just jumped for joy throughout that.

 

[starcape91]

My sisters (and brothers and so on), I just played Gongaga. I. Have. No. Words.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

there's are big and important differences between Aerith and Tifa's date scenes, and not even Tifa's kiss:

Most of C/A has is an illusion~ but I have to admit the memories they made during the journey is indeed real but both Aerith and Cloud are looking through each other but searching for someone else.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

So, I was making the rounds on Youtube. Saw this comment.


"why does Aerith and Cloud not get a kiss? because dramatic build up. They are saving up overtly romantic gestures between Aerith and Cloud in the last game. If you know anything about Asian dramas this is how it should go. The CxT kiss is just bait for Tifa fans, no other way to put it."

They were doing the rounds making these exact same comments after Remake about Rebirth.

And if anyone was baited, it was Aerith fans with the Game Awards trailer suggesting more would happen with Cloud and Aerith than actually did in the game. Also shows how desperate people like these really are if they’re perfectly fine with Cloud kissing Tifa for “bait” reasons if it means Cloud gets to kiss Aerith (who’s DEAD) in Part 3. Like that’s the kind of person Cloud is, the kind of guy who they want to kiss Aerith smdh

On both counts, saying that then and saying this now shows a complete lack of understanding and failure of basic literary comprehension if you thought Cloud and Aerith would have kissed during Rebirth’s section of the original’s story, and even more so if you’re still deluding yourself into thinking Part 3 is building to a Cloud and Aerith kiss, to the point I seriously think that still perpetuating this idea is incredibly harmful to one’s own mental health, and it makes continued discussions in any area of the fandom frustrating because of the continued loud and extremely vocal misinterpretations such as these being spread about everywhere.

The only thing they’re building to relationship wise is all the key points in Cloud and Tifa’s relationship. And to assume they’re saving the romantic parts of Cloud and Aerith’s relationship for Part 3 is one questionable given that she’s DEAD but there would HAVE to be enough romantic groundwork laid down in Rebirh to facilitate there being any romantic payoff to occur in Part 3, and there is nothing in Rebirth for this. None whatsoever. Their relationship, in a romantic sense, had its natural resolution in the church. There’s no more to build from that, everything else after the church regarding Aerith is her fate, Cloud’s guilt and trauma from her loss, and the rest is Aerith’s importance in the narrative, not Cloud’s love life.

She’s got Holy to summon, not some guy she doesn’t even know the real persona of to go kiss.

 

[Hix]

Honestly it makes sense why many Cleriths choose not to play the games or consume the supplementary material, the ship works so much better sticking with bait trailers and cherry picked Youtube compilations.

The cognitive dissonance one must experience from the overwhelming amount of content that either calls into question CA or outright contradicts it must make the entire thing an exercise in frustration.

Like fine, you can ignore the kiss, you can skip the content showing Cloud has feelings for Tifa, you can reinterpret the downer moments which clearly show even Aerith isn't sure of her feelings for Cloud and you can pretend Zack doesn't exist and pray he just goes away between now and part 3. Oh and Aerith isn't dead, of course. Like you can do these things and more, but are you even discussing Final Fantasy VII anymore?

At this point if you're still holding by Cloud and Tifa not having romantic feelings for each other and Aerith being over Zack for good, then you should know that the franchise has moved on and left you behind a long time ago.

 

[Graymouse]

I am not trying to make this thread into a C/T echo chamber or anything.


I think ultimately a lot of C/A are either

A: not going to play part 3 because Aerith isnt going to be traveling with the main party and will probably only be in cut away scenes and where she should be appropriately placed for plot reasons to promote a storyline thread that needs to be advanced. I feel she will be mentioned on several occasions so i am not saying she will be written out of Part 3 but it wont be significant amount of interaction in main timeline events.

B: Play Part 3 and be sorely disappointed that no romantic interaction with Cloud is going to happen ( she a ghost for crying out loud.. or some weird ackward dream sequence between the two).

Get pissed off at SE for no C/A payoff in Part 3 and yell on high about how much they were let down. Ignoring the fact that is how disc 3 is played out in the OG.

 

[Stiggie]

If there was a Hell for romance tropes to go when they die, Mistaken For Love would burn for all eternity next to Not Related By Blood.

I think it depends on the product, in FFVIII I thought it was absolutely stupid because it came out of nowhere and felt tacked on to make it less sucky for Quistis, actually it mostly felt like Quistis lying to herself.
In FFVII though I think it's the most logical and satisfying way the story can go.

 

[Stiggie]

Btw, are smaller interactions in the game significantly changed by the characters affection ratings? I just got to the inn scene in Junon and was shocked at how romantic Cloud and Tifa already were there (and during the frog minigame) while Aeriths interaction had essentially the same air as the interactions with Barret and Red XIII. But I do have a very high affection rating with Tifa and none with Aerith so I was wondering if that might have changed something already.

 

[Maidenofwar]

That's interesting Stiggie, I'm still in grassland, but watching a friend stream, when they did Junon part, Cloud and Tifa had another disagreement.

"A: not going to play part 3 because Aerith isnt going to be traveling with the main party and will probably only be in cut away scenes and where she should be appropriately placed for plot reasons to promote a storyline thread that needs to be advanced. I feel she will be mentioned on several occasions so i am not saying she will be written out of Part 3 but it wont be significant amount of interaction in main timeline events."

This is also for Aerith fan in general, Aerith is my main, she has a unique style in battle, since everyone is different, so I'll be at a bit of a loss. More so than OG even since they made each character distinct for the trilogy, even though I switch characters in battle I love her abilities. Also Rebirth cost me almost £500 to play (console and game) so I have a valid reason to consider the wisdom of finances on a third game (hopefully still on ps5 yikes)

 

[Graymouse]

That's interesting Stiggie, I'm still in grassland, but watching a friend stream, when they did Junon part, Cloud and Tifa had another disagreement.

"A: not going to play part 3 because Aerith isnt going to be traveling with the main party and will probably only be in cut away scenes and where she should be appropriately placed for plot reasons to promote a storyline thread that needs to be advanced. I feel she will be mentioned on several occasions so i am not saying she will be written out of Part 3 but it wont be significant amount of interaction in main timeline events."

This is also for Aerith fan in general, Aerith is my main, she has a unique style in battle, since everyone is different, so I'll be at a bit of a loss. More so than OG even since they made each character distinct for the trilogy, even though I switch characters in battle I love her abilities. Also Rebirth cost me almost £500 to play (console and game) so I have a valid reason to consider the wisdom of finances on a third game (hopefully still on ps5 yikes)

I am curious to know who did you main after Aerith dies in the OG?

 

[Maidenofwar]

OG is turn based/atb, it doesn’t really have unique dodge, guard, unique character abilities etc (aside from limit break), most characters can be made relatively similar via the materia system so in that one I could make anyone my mage. So instead of distinct character combat it revolves more around the materia system. However initially I used Cloud, barret, red xiii, then Cloud, aerith, tifa (which turned out to be one of my favourite teams because of limit chains with Aerith's Fury Brand and Tifa's limits), then Yuffie, Cid, everyone got turn eventually.

 

[Nal]

OG is turn based/atb, it doesn’t really have unique dodge, guard, unique character abilities etc (aside from limit break), most characters can be made relatively similar via the materia system so in that one I could make anyone my mage. So instead of distinct character combat it revolves more around the materia system. However initially I used Cloud, barret, red xiii, then Cloud, aerith, tifa (which turned out to be one of my favourite teams because of limit chains with Aerith's Fury Brand and Tifa's limits), then Yuffie, Cid, everyone got turn eventually.

This is one thing that will suck as each character has such a fun, and different playstyle. Meaning a death for your favourite character gameplay-wise will change your enjoyment.

 

[Graymouse]

OG is turn based/atb, it doesn’t really have unique dodge, guard, unique character abilities etc (aside from limit break), most characters can be made relatively similar via the materia system so in that one I could make anyone my mage. So instead of distinct character combat it revolves more around the materia system. However initially I used Cloud, barret, red xiii, then Cloud, aerith, tifa (which turned out to be one of my favourite teams because of limit chains with Aerith's Fury Brand and Tifa's limits), then Yuffie, Cid, everyone got turn eventually.

For me it was Cloud, Vincent, and Tifa. I would Switch Tifa out for Red or Yuffie.

 

[Rose Alive]

Spoiler: Rebirth

I wanted to play the game before I posted more of my thoughts. I'm on chapter 7, so I've got more context now. And oh wow, the difference in the interactions between Cloud and Aerith and Cloud and Tifa. My fears of the writers making Cloud kind of wishy-washy were much unwarranted.

Cloud is much more relaxed with Tifa. He is so obviously at ease in her presence. The romantic tension between those two is palpable. I love how he encouraged her at the gym to be a mentor when she got shy and starting doubting herself. You can see Cloud's feelings for her bleeding through his false persona continuously.

With Aerith, she always initiates physical contact. Everything that could be considered flirty is coming from her. Even in Costa del Sol on their "date", she says she's viewing it as a romantic date, and Cloud says I wish you wouldn't. I just can't imagine him saying that to Tifa when it's been shown he's ready to hand her the whole world if she hinted that was her desire. Square is clearing up any and all vagueness and I'm here for it, all day every day!

I'm loving all the interactions with all the characters (especially Barret and Yuffie going up mt corel) but only two of these characters have an undoubtedly romantic air to them.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

@Stiggie @Maidenofwar

I think it’s still too early to say just how many variations in scenes there are based on the affection system outside of the Gold Saucer and Aerith’s church scene, but I don’t think the Junon Inn scene with Tifa is different based on affection solely at that point, rather the dialogue choices that are picked for that scene

Either way, if you had high affection with Tifa, and picked the best dialogue option for that scene she and Cloud still have a disagreement, but they’re able to deal with it better than they did in Kalm. For starters both say they shouldn’t have doubted the other, and as far as I’m aware, that isn’t affected by the affinity system. The conversation ends with them agreeing to discuss things further at another time, so it’s moving things along. I haven’t seen any outright bad ending to their talk together in Junon because it wouldn’t make sense at this point in the story for Cloud and Tifa to end things worse than they did at the inn in Kalm.

Another thing I noticed.

Spoiler

Before you can talk to Aerith, you hear her talking with Red about their loss of their memories because of the Whispers.

After, Aerith’s best dialogue option expresses this reality that Aerith lost all her memories in a really tragic way for her character.

If you say that Cloud and Aerith’s first meeting was when Aerith gave Cloud the yellow flower, Aerith admonishes Cloud for giving the flower to Tifa, saying you should never regift something a girl gave you to another girl. At first it seems very out of character for Aerith to say that, given in Remake, she literally says to Cloud to give the flower to his girlfriend/someone special, and then when Aerith actually sees the flower in Seventh Heaven, she smiles, because it’s heavily hinted that Aerith is fully aware of both Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for each other (Aerith says to Tifa to “follow her heart”, right after again proving her foresight by knowing Marlene before Tifa asks her to save her).

So Aerith reacting completely the opposite to how she was in Remake regarding Cloud giving Tifa the yellow flower in Rebirth is a really tragic way of showing that this Aerith has lost all her future memories, and with it a lot of her development as a character from Remake. It’s kind of sad that this happened but I realise it’s to stop the plot actually going too off the rails, as if Aerith (and Red) continued to go through the story with all this future knowledge it would effect a lot of key sequences. They could get away with it to an extent in Midgar, because it’s the opening portions of the story, but Rebirth for Aerith would be very different if she was still like Remake Aerith and was all knowing about everything that happens.

Again this is what I think it means by “The Unknown Journey”

 

[Yumelinh]

That's interesting Stiggie, I'm still in grassland, but watching a friend stream, when they did Junon part, Cloud and Tifa had another disagreement.

"A: not going to play part 3 because Aerith isnt going to be traveling with the main party and will probably only be in cut away scenes and where she should be appropriately placed for plot reasons to promote a storyline thread that needs to be advanced. I feel she will be mentioned on several occasions so i am not saying she will be written out of Part 3 but it wont be significant amount of interaction in main timeline events."

This is also for Aerith fan in general, Aerith is my main, she has a unique style in battle, since everyone is different, so I'll be at a bit of a loss. More so than OG even since they made each character distinct for the trilogy, even though I switch characters in battle I love her abilities. Also Rebirth cost me almost £500 to play (console and game) so I have a valid reason to consider the wisdom of finances on a third game (hopefully still on ps5 yikes)

You mean the room talk? If so, I believe it's the same scene Stiggie mentioned

 

[Yumelinh]

That's interesting Stiggie, I'm still in grassland, but watching a friend stream, when they did Junon part, Cloud and Tifa had another disagreement.

"A: not going to play part 3 because Aerith isnt going to be traveling with the main party and will probably only be in cut away scenes and where she should be appropriately placed for plot reasons to promote a storyline thread that needs to be advanced. I feel she will be mentioned on several occasions so i am not saying she will be written out of Part 3 but it wont be significant amount of interaction in main timeline events."

This is also for Aerith fan in general, Aerith is my main, she has a unique style in battle, since everyone is different, so I'll be at a bit of a loss. More so than OG even since they made each character distinct for the trilogy, even though I switch characters in battle I love her abilities. Also Rebirth cost me almost £500 to play (console and game) so I have a valid reason to consider the wisdom of finances on a third game (hopefully still on ps5 yikes)

oh, I didn't see the rest of the message! But I'm pretty sure Aerith will still be present for a good portion of the game and with the team somehow, so don't lose hope! (But yeah... it's quite expensive, but hopefully, we will all be extra rich by the time the third game comes out lol)

 

[Graymouse]

oh, I didn't see the rest of the message! But I'm pretty sure Aerith will still be present for a good portion of the game and with the team somehow, so don't lose hope! (But yeah... it's quite expensive, but hopefully, we will all be extra rich by the time the third game comes out lol)

I respectably disagree. It is my opinion that it would weaken the plot to have her be a playable character in the last game, or even have her as a ghost hanging around the main party with only Cloud talking to her.

Plot wise she has other things to attend to in the lifestream other than hanging out with the living.

Now, i am not saying she won't be in the game at all but her presence I feel should be limited. (the whole feeling of great loss and hopelessness that Cloud falls into) Plot wise, Aerith can't be around.

Ultimately, the living need to concentrate on stopping Sephiroth. Areith needs to concentrate on casting Holy.


edited to add, of course the alt time lines could change things stated above.

 

[Yumelinh]

Sorry for the triple post (mods, don't come for me, it won't happen again ), but I actually came here to link this video below:

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1765720781265441119

This pretty much demonstrates why the argument that 'it's optional' doesn't invalidate the kiss. The game gives the player the power to influence what date they're going to see, but not what Cloud does on each date. And that's precisely why it's irrelevant if the scene is optional or not because the way he acts with each character is completely different. It only highlights Cloud's actual feelings towards each one of them.

Plus, as many people have mentioned here, the goalposts have changed in relation to what we can consider as romantic coming from Cloud. Up until Rebirth, we had very little to compare since Cloud has never been presented in undeniably romantic situations outside of polygons and fade to black, and complementary material. So, any ambiguous interaction could be considered romantic as that was the standard for his characterisation. But things have changed now after Rebirth because, for the first time in 27 years, Cloud actually kissed one of the girls, and he was the one to initiate it.

Edit: oh, thanks for saving me from triple-post @Graymouse

 

[Yumelinh]

I respectably disagree. It is my opinion that it would weaken the plot to have her be a playable character in the last game, or even have her as a ghost hanging around the main party with only Cloud talking to her.

Plot wise she has other things to attend to in the lifestream other than hanging out with the living.

Now, i am not saying she won't be in the game at all but her presence I feel should be limited. (the whole feeling of great loss and hopelessness that Cloud falls into) Plot wise, Aerith can't be around.

Ultimately, the living need to concentrate on stopping Sephiroth. Areith needs to concentrate on casting Holy.


edited to add, of course the alt time lines could change things stated above.

Spoiler

Oh, I agree that it will weaken her death even more, but tbh I'm pretty convinced she will show up a lot in Part 3, either aiding the team as a force ghost or as an Aerith in another dimension trying to help. She still has to get Great Gospel for example, so it's safe to assume she will get that in Part 3. How the devs will do that? Not sure either

 

[Graymouse]

Spoiler

Oh, I agree that it will weaken her death even more, but tbh I'm pretty convinced she will show up a lot in Part 3, either aiding the team as a force ghost or as an Aerith in another dimension trying to help. She still has to get Great Gospel for example, so it's safe to assume she will get that in Part 3. How the devs will do that? Not sure either

No problem with the save!

Yeah, i really dislike the idea of the Force ghost thing.

 

[GamerSkull]

If she’s in Part 3, it better be more interactions with Zack and not the main party this time. After finishing the game, I am left wanting as far as both of them are concerned.