SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

branklinn

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
Kirin
Aerith wants to meet the real Cloud & Tifa wants to save the real Cloud… confuzzled
Aerith mentioned that she saw parts of Zack in Cloud but realized he was his own person as well and wanted to meet the “Real” Cloud. The problem is that she doesn’t have the right pieces in a sense. Cloud for all intents and purposes puts on a persona with almost everyone he meets because his mind will literally break otherwise, and I am sure Aerith knows it’s a persona and why she teases him at times. Stating that she still doesn’t really know what Cloud is/was like, she never met Cloud before his mind got all fucked up, so it makes sense she wants to meet the real him, not to mention his connection to Zack would understandably encourage her interest more. Tifa on the other hand wants to save him because she was there from the start, she knows what he was like before and that something is wrong with him. She’s also in love with him and we have seen that she wants to be his hero in a sense since he is her hero or least save him like he’s saved her before (I think this was said in the gongaga scene). I think Aerith also wants to save him but lacks the pieces that Tifa has. Sorry if I misunderstood your comment but is how interpret the differences in their intentions.
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
Aerith mentioned that she saw parts of Zack in Cloud but realized he was his own person as well and wanted to meet the “Real” Cloud. The problem is that she doesn’t have the right pieces in a sense. Cloud for all intents and purposes puts on a persona with almost everyone he meets because his mind will literally break otherwise, and I am sure Aerith knows it’s a persona and why she teases him at times. Stating that she still doesn’t really know what Cloud is/was like, she never met Cloud before his mind got all fucked up, so it makes sense she wants to meet the real him, not to mention his connection to Zack would understandably encourage her interest more. Tifa on the other hand wants to save him because she was there from the start, she knows what he was like before and that something is wrong with him. She’s also in love with him and we have seen that she wants to be his hero in a sense since he is her hero or least save him like he’s saved her before (I think this was said in the gongaga scene). I think Aerith also wants to save him but lacks the pieces that Tifa has. Sorry if I misunderstood your comment but is how interpret the differences in their intentions.

Nah you haven’t I’m just trying to make sense of it all and their place in the story

Aerith up until the gondola date was seeing Cloud as Zack, it’s only then she suddenly sees him as actual Cloud

But then she goes on a date with Cloud copying the date from Crisis Core

So at the end she gets confused with like and Like and thanks him for showing him the “real him”

Tifa on the other hand knows there is something wrong with Cloud but simultaneously sees some the of the actual Cloud in their as well. The Lifestream sequence spells it out to her that it’s going to be job now to save Cloud now and that she needs him.

That’s the position we’re left off at the end of Rebirth 🤔
 

branklinn

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
Kirin
People don't hate girls being written as love interests, people hate badly written relationships. You can't just add character A to your story, have them love character B, and expect that to be enough to move the plot forward. You have to mutually develop it and convince your fandom why they should support your intended pairing. If done right, I can guarantee many people will support it, personal preferences aside, ofc. I'm not even speaking about Bleach specifically here, but in general.

Plus, there are so many variables. A character whose central focus is their feelings for another character can have as their main resolution in the end to finding their own path by moving on from their past feelings, just like a character who is already their own person or has their own importance to the main plot can also be a love interest. It all depends on how the story is told in the end.

And this is where FFVII differs, imo. I would even go further and say that this is probably why CA was more popular when OG first came out, but CT gradually gained ground and became much more popular as the time passed. It might have been difficult for a good portion of the ppl who played OG to see CT as the ending pairing when CA was so strongly pushed in disk 1. However, the creators put a lot of effort into explain their initial vision and further developing them in all the subsequent material to make sure we, the fandom, understand why Cloud and Tifa should be together, and it all paid out in the end for them.
I just wanted to add to the Bleach topic, it should be mentioned, and I could be misremembering this so don’t take my word 100%, the anime kinda shafted Orihime a bit since the someone involved with the anime was a pretty big Ichiruki fan. The manga does better job at showing Orihime as main the love interest I believe and developing her character in general. I also think the fact that she was a healer instead of direct combatant lead to people dog piling on her calling her useless ignoring the times she provided emotional comfort to Ichigo, tho to be fair Rukia did to. Personally I really liked her because she was sweet and endearing and I just don’t think heroines always gotta be badasses. It should also be mention Rukia is like 100years older than Ichigo tho in anime thats hardly ever a problem. Anyways I just wanted to mention these things as I thought they’d be important to the comparison.
 

branklinn

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
Kirin
Nah you haven’t I’m just trying to make sense of it all and their place in the story

Aerith up until the gondola date was seeing Cloud as Zack, it’s only then she suddenly sees him as actual Cloud

But then she goes on a date with Cloud copying the date from Crisis Core

So at the end she gets confused with like and Like and thanks him for showing him the “real him”

Tifa on the other hand knows there is something wrong with Cloud but simultaneously sees some the of the actual Cloud in their as well. The Lifestream sequence spells it out to her that it’s going to be job now to save Cloud now and that she needs him.

That’s the position we’re left off at the end of Rebirth 🤔
Ahhh gotcha, hopefully they do a good job at clearing this up the next game, now what is left to do is survive long enough for the next game. Or maybe the ultimania is help clears things up more, hell maybe even Nojima (I am not confusing him up am I?) might say something else if people don’t leave his ass alone.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Don't think more women in the writing team would help anything, people just assume things are the result of "men writing women" but you could say the same thing about Clouds entire life story revolving around Tifa, or him becoming existentially depressed just because a woman died. If you want to look at things reductively then you'll always be able to criticize.

Ok, I'm confused why I'm being singled out here. I agreed with someone that a female perspective on the writing team could possibly be to the betterment of the writing. I didn't get reductive on anything that I can see or insist things were bad, only agreed that in my view they could be better. I know you quoted me, but it kinda feels like you should be talking to Clds7, as that was the person declaring that without women writers they can't write this right.

The reason everything revolves around Cloud is because he's the main character.

I literally made the same argument. It was wordier, but the same point was made. Again not sure why this is at me.

I find it as annoying as the next person that every woman seems to fall in love with Cloud, and it's one of the many reasons I don't want Aeriths affections for him to be genuinely romantic.

Fair enough reasons for that, sure.

But that has everything to do with writers wanting everything to revolve around the main character, and very little with the genders of the writers.

I never argued this. What little I've said about the genders of the writers did not claim said genders being responsible for Cloud being at the center of everything. I believe my claim was that different decisions by the writers could have allowed for Tifa and Aerith's friendship to be shown more without taking Cloud out of the main character position.

The big problem with the writing of this game isn't the female friendship, it's the convoluted up-its-own-ass multiple timeline aren't-we-clever writing.

Still just not thinking about it. Timey-wimey ball can bounce in the corner for now, it'll either make sense later or it won't. And I agree the female friendship isn't a problem, I've called it one of my favorite parts of this game multiple times and lamented how LTD shut overshadows it fir some people. Again, are you sure you're talking to the right person?

Also, I don't see what the issue is with Aerith not...comforting(?), I guess, Tifa. Tifa can't sense her, there would be no point, and the scene gave me the idea that when Aerith touched Red XIII Aerith was looking towards, and mourning for the loss, of both.

It's not an issue, exactly. It's something I think would be better. Again, it's not so much for Tifa, who currently can't even feel it. It's a show don't tell for Aerith's feelings. A visible desire to reach out to her hurting friend. There's nothing really wrong with the scene as is, it's just something I would've liked better.

I think this is nitpicking.

A bit, yes.

I have criticisms about Aeriths behavior but her not caring about Tifas loss isn't the hill I am willing to die on, or even fight for.

I never said this, so if it were the hill to die on it'd either need a different opponent or be ruled suicide :monster: Seriously though, did I give this impression somehow in earlier posts? I don't see it but this is coming from somewhere.

Yes, a scene where Aerith gives Tifa some special attention would have been a plus,

That is all I said. You're better at saying some of this succinctly than me, but we agree on this.

but I don't count the lack of it as a minus, and I don't think Aerith is to blame for it either way, the writers are.

When you see something you could have had, but didn't get in the end, it can certainly feel like a minus. Still, I agree. It's not. The scene works fine as is, and to some it's probably better this way than the other. And no, it's not Aerith's fault. If we're talking meta, nothing is anyone's fault except the writers. Sephiroth isn't responsible for killing Aerith or burning Nibelheim either, the writers made him do it after all :awesome: But, even looking at things from a character perspective I don't blame Aerith for anything here. Unless later material actually gives me a reason to change my mind, it's clear she did nothing wrong in this scene, it just wasn't portrayed to my taste. And that's fine.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Ahhh gotcha, hopefully they do a good job at clearing this up the next game, now what is left to do is survive long enough for the next game. Or maybe the ultimania is help clears things up more, hell maybe even Nojima (I am not confusing him up am I?) might say something else if people don’t leave his ass alone.
Seeing some of his tweet comments, I feel like… he may get irritated lol
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
People don't hate girls being written as love interests, people hate badly written relationships. You can't just add character A to your story, have them love character B, and expect that to be enough to move the plot forward. You have to mutually develop it and convince your fandom why they should support your intended pairing. If done right, I can guarantee many people will support it, personal preferences aside, ofc. I'm not even speaking about Bleach specifically here, but in general.

Plus, there are so many variables. A character whose central focus is their feelings for another character can have as their main resolution in the end to finding their own path by moving on from their past feelings, just like a character who is already their own person or has their own importance to the main plot can also be a love interest. It all depends on how the story is told in the end.

And this is where FFVII differs, imo. I would even go further and say that this is probably why CA was more popular when OG first came out, but CT gradually gained ground and became much more popular as the time passed. It might have been difficult for a good portion of the ppl who played OG to see CT as the ending pairing when CA was so strongly pushed in disk 1. However, the creators put a lot of effort into explain their initial vision and further developing them in all the subsequent material to make sure we, the fandom, understand why Cloud and Tifa should be together, and it all paid out in the end for them.
It's just a pattern I've noticed when a character has the mc very central in their story they get disliked for it. Sure it will be couched in ad-hoc rationalizations about how the dislike is actually because of something completely justified, but the reaction can be predicted long before any of that is taken into account.

Basically people know that hating a character because their story is strongly tied to the main character isn't justifiable, but unconsciously that is the impetus for the dislike. They see a character, think all they are is some wet rag that pines over the protagonist, and that lens then colors all their perceptions of what comes after. So for certain characters people will be looking for reasons to criticize them, while for others they will be looking for reasons to dismiss them.

Another good example is Hinata, whose defining trait at the start of the show can be understandably interpreted as just being in love with Naruto. This then leads to certain flawed views about her character, they will say "Her motivations are shallow, the only reason she's trying to get stronger is because she's in love with Naruto", when in reality the reason she's in love with naruto is because he inspired her to get stronger. They will say their dislike for her is because of shallow characterization, but in reality the reason they think these characters are shallow is because they dislike her.

And yeah, there are other forces at play of course that can counter-act this, especially over time, but Tifa is exactly the same. Her characterization was never more shallow in the OG than it was in remake, but there was more room for interpretation, and because people started off not liking her, partially because Aerith exists, and because of the fact that Tifa in contrast can be easily misinterpreted to "just revolve around Cloud", people jumped at the chance to use THE WORST interpretation of her character to justify their a-priori hatred of the character.

There are exceptions of course but I am convinced this psycho analysis is essentially correct for a large part of the dislike of Tifa, if not the majority. Only reason it's changed now is because there isn't enough wriggle room anymore to justify said interpretation.
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
She never see the real him. It's part of her tragedy, that she can never meet him while alive.

There is a difference between "searching for the real him" and "finding him".

sorry I meant she finally sees him as Cloud on his own (even though we know its not the real Cloud)

Im still unsure of the meaning of the fake date being a replica of Zacks and the implication behind it after she begins to see Cloud as his own person. Hope the Ultimata sheds some light on it
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Ok, I'm confused why I'm being singled out here. I agreed with someone that a female perspective on the writing team could possibly be to the betterment of the writing. I didn't get reductive on anything that I can see or insist things were bad, only agreed that in my view they could be better. I know you quoted me, but it kinda feels like you should be talking to Clds7, as that was the person declaring that without women writers they can't write this right.
I quoted someone at random, definitely didn't mean to single anyone out. I just started casually reading from the bottom and at some point pressed "quote", it was aimed at the overall conversation.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
@Stiggie: Thank you, I appreciate you clearing that up. I have on occasion actually given an impression utterly counter to what I meant, usually coinciding with awful insomnia (guess who didn't sleep worth a damn last night!) so I legit felt the need to check, ya know? I friggin' hate when I accidentally misrepresent myself :doh:
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
It's just a pattern I've noticed when a character has the mc very central in their story they get disliked for it. Sure it will be couched in ad-hoc rationalizations about how the dislike is actually because of something completely justified, but the reaction can be predicted long before any of that is taken into account.

Basically people know that hating a character because their story is strongly tied to the main character isn't justifiable, but unconsciously that is the impetus for the dislike. They see a character, think all they are is some wet rag that pines over the protagonist, and that lens then colors all their perceptions of what comes after. So for certain characters people will be looking for reasons to criticize them, while for others they will be looking for reasons to dismiss them.

Another good example is Hinata, whose defining trait at the start of the show can be understandably interpreted as just being in love with Naruto. This then leads to certain flawed views about her character, they will say "Her motivations are shallow, the only reason she's trying to get stronger is because she's in love with Naruto", when in reality the reason she's in love with naruto is because he inspired her to get stronger. They will say their dislike for her is because of shallow characterization, but in reality the reason they think these characters are shallow is because they dislike her.

And yeah, there are other forces at play of course that can counter-act this, especially over time, but Tifa is exactly the same. Her characterization was never more shallow in the OG than it was in remake, but there was more room for interpretation, and because people started off not liking her, partially because Aerith exists, and because of the fact that Tifa in contrast can be easily misinterpreted to "just revolve around Cloud", people jumped at the chance to use THE WORST interpretation of her character to justify their a-priori hatred of the character.

There are exceptions of course but I am convinced this psycho analysis is essentially correct for a large part of the dislike of Tifa, if not the majority. Only reason it's changed now is because there isn't enough wriggle room anymore to justify said interpretation.
I believe we can agree to disagree, then. I understand where you're coming from, and there are certainly many stories where this might actually be the case. But my answer remains the same as before: People don't hate girls being written as love interests, people hate badly written relationships. You may look at a relationship and believe what the creators showed you is enough to justify why they should be together, while for a good portion of people, what was presented might not even scratch the surface. Sure, personal preference plays a big role in this aspect, but if done right, a creator should be able to guide their readers/players into the direction they want if they put effort into it. That's what FFVII was able to do in the end.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Tifa was even that much hated as a character, not even when OG came out. People might have preferred Aerith, but I feel that for a good portion of the players it was never because they hated Tifa or the fact that her character was so intertwined with Cloud. Sure, she has her fair share of haters for the reasons you mentioned above, but I'd say they're still a great minority in the fandom.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
People don't hate girls being written as love interests, people hate badly written relationships.
I agree with this. I've never hated a character just because they're a love interest but them being the love interest™ isn't an excuse not to actually develop the relationship. I'm probably going to word this badly but a character's whole raison d'être being about loving the main character isn't quite the same as being the love interest™, particularly if said relationship isn't actually developed or is developed badly. It's just as common to see love rivals in fiction whose raison d'être is to love the main character but they still don't get the girl/boy. So holding largely one-sided feelings as a metric whether someone is a love interest or not is kind of silly.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
@Stiggie: Thank you, I appreciate you clearing that up. I have on occasion actually given an impression utterly counter to what I meant, usually coinciding with awful insomnia (guess who didn't sleep worth a damn last night!) so I legit felt the need to check, ya know? I friggin' hate when I accidentally misrepresent myself :doh:
That's OK, I myself seem to come across as a lot more aggressive or confrontational than I usually intend to so I know how it feels.
 

alohana

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
alohana
As far as Aerith comforting Tifa at the end goes, I think Aerith couldn't do that as it might mess up her act in front of Cloud. So I think it's fine.

sorry I meant she finally sees him as Cloud on his own (even though we know its not the real Cloud)

Im still unsure of the meaning of the fake date being a replica of Zacks and the implication behind it after she begins to see Cloud as his own person. Hope the Ultimata sheds some light on it

My theory is that Rebirth Aerith figured out her feelings on Cloud during the gondola date, and Dream Date Aerith needed to also double check her feelings as she would have not had the chance to in the OG.

I don’t think I could stand hearing her sing about trains all day though.

In all seriousness, Selphie is cool too. But leave Quistis alone.
Lol he actually gets used to it. All negative interactions with Selphie are player choice. Although I am a Rinoa girlie, I noticed that in my last playthrough.

Quistis definitely needed a woman in the writing room though.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
As far as Aerith comforting Tifa at the end goes, I think Aerith couldn't do that as it might mess up her act in front of Cloud. So I think it's fine.



My theory is that Rebirth Aerith figured out her feelings on Cloud during the gondola date, and Dream Date Aerith needed to also double check her feelings as she would have not had the chance to in the OG.


Lol he actually gets used to it. All negative interactions with Selphie are player choice. Although I am a Rinoa girlie, I noticed that in my last playthrough.

Quistis definitely needed a woman in the writing room though.
It’s interesting because I don’t like Rinoa or Squall much.



Gonna be honest though, Edea is best girl.



And to be doubly honest, I haven’t played FF8 in a good bit so perhaps I need to go through it again to see if I feel any differently about things.
 

Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
The game doesn’t have enough sections of Tifa and Aerith on their own in a party without Cloud tbh
They technically do have a lot of moments together, but the issue there is that we are mostly watching from Clouds POV and the devs are purposefully not letting us players see what the 2 are talking about, besides a few little teases and implications. But yeah i wouldn't have minded getting more actual playable sections with the 2 together either.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
They technically do have a lot of moments together, but the issue there is that we are mostly watching from Clouds POV and the devs are purposefully not letting us players see what the 2 are talking about, besides a few little teases and implications. But yeah i wouldn't have minded getting more actual playable sections with the 2 together either.
I hope we get to see their full conversations about Zack in the future.
 

Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
I hope we get to see their full conversations about Zack in the future.
I do think Tifas gonna bring up some of these conversations later, be it when helping Cloud piece himself together or otherwise. Or hell maybe even just seeing some kinda flashback to them from Tifas POV.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Not real as in Aerith never died? Or the final gauntlet of bosses?
Nope, if we watch the credits her death is depicted.

What is not is "her burial" and Cloud watching at the empty/black materia while the others prepare the Tiny Bronco.

tl;dr : The credits black out all of Cloud POVs after beating the final boss.

So yeah the game is 100% telling us something is wrong with him.
 
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