SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[nars305]

The new Ultimanias have confirmed (like the old Ultimanias) that Aerith likes Cloud, can't believe it's 2024 and I'm still here.

I’m not against that, as I figured that myself initially. I guess it’s a matter of what Aerith we are talking about then? It’s obvious she likes Cloud but then there’s an Aerith who questions her feelings for Cloud.

So we have an Aerith that says she still has feelings for Zack and an Aerith who questions her feelings for Cloud.

I find it a little annoying honestly. The game presents [this] and ultimania says [that].

 

[abzy1200]

Aerith liking Cloud and still liking Zack aren't really contradictory, though.

 

[nars305]

I don’t think it’s contradictory. It’s more of what I’m led to interpret if Aerith says she wants to meet the real Cloud but can’t. Then at the end of the game having her questions her feelings.

I feel like the game was steering me more towards understanding her longing for Zack and if I ever was going to think about her feelings for Cloud, I’m reminded of why it doesn’t work?

Edit: I wanted to clarify a bit more. The ultimania point was more me finding it annoying that it’s more complicated than the fact that she likes Cloud because she is shown questioning that.

She can definitely have feelings for both, but I feel like moments in the game are wanting me to see her feelings for Zack as opposed to her wanting to be with Cloud. There’s not really any other way to do that because Cloud does not pursue Aerith, she pursues him. So her romantic moments seem to always include Zack, like “hey remember she has a thing for another guy too”.

 

[imach0c0]

i was wondering whether zack’s romantic feelings for aerith could have manifested in cloud, thus making it possible that romantic interpretations could be true in the first two games, with his romantic feelings resolved in the final one after he pieces everything together. i thought that barret telling him to pick one indicated that there is a possibility that he does come across as though he could like both and that it’s not just down to players’ choices;

In the GS Barret date, when Barret says to Cloud: "tell your feelings to your soulmate before its too late" (paraphrase), on the surface, it can allude to both sides (CA or CT). It can allude to Aerith as she is going to die. It can can also allude to Tifa because prior to the GS, Tifa fell into the LS and she may not have survived. However, with the way Remake trilogy has presented Cloud, he does not seem to be aware of Aerith's feelings towards him. Nor seems to show any romantic feelings towards Aerith. Thus, I think the "soulmate" points to Tifa.

i thought barret surely isn’t interested in the situation but must’ve noticed something from cloud’s end to say that, somewhat of an acknowledgement of the triangle perhaps. when aerith told cloud that his feelings aren’t real, he said ‘don’t i get a say in all this?’ which sounded, to me, like somewhat of a protest to her statement.

I don't get what they were trying to allude to when Cloud reaches out to Aerith's hand when she lets go of his face. I will say that the way the tone of this scene is presented was confusing. We don't ever see Cloud act like that towards Aerith throughout the trilogy. In JP, Cloud says: "That's one-sided." To me, that indicates that Cloud wants the agency to make his own decisions as opposed to others making it for him.

i’ve always wanted to read the japanese translation of the game, but i can’t find it anywhere. and it’s hard to tell whether what i’m reading is translated by someone biased. i definitely want to read the zack scenes at least and get to the bottom of this kyu kyu business (i managed to get the angle scene confirmed in japanese though, which sounded terrible to me in english. i know that, in german, he says that she gets more beautiful with every date, which seems more appropriate lol).

What about the "hyu hyu" do you want clarified? We discussed it a couple of posts earlier. Perhaps that may give you some insight.

and i really cannot believe they have brought him back only to tell him that aerith has feelings for his best friend (if this is what was said in japanese; i would love to hear that it wasn’t).

I think that line did a couple of things:
1. Add angst to the ZA arc
2. Gives Zack character development (despite hearing that, he shows how selfless he is)
3. Create a setup (unresolved issue) for ZA in part 3

 

[zinniawoods109349]

What about the "hyu hyu" do you want clarified?

i wanted it clarifying whether marlene was definitively telling zack that aerith’s feelings for cloud were romantic. then i can understand zack’s perspective better going forward and ignore the further ambiguity that the english translation adds.

 

[Maidenofwar]

@nars305 Something that I wanted to address was that when I see CA in Ultimania, credits, etc, things like that, I do not seek to invalidate your experience of the game, it just reassures me that my experience is also valid, I appreciate yours too

 

[pxl_pushr]

This is why I don't like the debate because Cloud showing any concern for either girl is now "proof of ship." Why wouldn't he show concern?! They're both his friends. He cares about both of them. But guess what? He only wants to kiss one of them, so case closed!!

This. This is key imo

Cloud can and has shown via Remake that he can feel things besides “I’d bang this one” and “not interested” he has a spectrum of feelings, and his complete lack of concern/urgency is not present in Rebirth… because the whole group are now people he considers friends and for a guy with a good heart but few friends in his life, that’s huge.

They aren’t operating on the level of shipping, and I think that’s where some people are getting crossed up. Even if one girl isn’t being pushed as the romantic endgame, they won’t disrespect her to the point that she’s a laughingstock. They will still treat her relationships with dignity and respect ( or at least try their best to ).

 

[nars305]

@nars305 Something that I wanted to address was that when I see CA in Ultimania, credits, etc, things like that, I do not seek to invalidate your experience of the game, it just reassures me that my experience is also valid, I appreciate yours too

Oh yeah I would never want to invalidate someone or seem like I’m “proving someone wrong”. *If I ever came across that way I apologize. I do like to poke fun at the more…interesting…interpretations though ‍.

In any form of media I find other people’s interpretations very interesting and good discussion adds to my love of the story.

I like the ultimanias, and have some of my own now. It’s just my own weird thing of taking the story at face value. I pay most attention to the game and the novels. It’s not that I believe that’s the right thing to do, it’s just how I function I guess lol.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yo i just heard a new excuse for the Cloti kiss. This time Cloud kissed her couse he wanted her to shut up. Thoughts ?

She wasn't talking, though.
Man, they're reaching for basically anything at this point.

View attachment 16911
Have fun guys .

EDIT: Also in case it's not clear, this is not a list i made for those who might lurk here and don't know my angle on this stuff yet. I just saw it in Twitter and brought it here to spice things up a little.

Oh, I see it's just a kiss on the cheek now. Yeah. It definitely wasn't.

If SE decided to make that a contributing factor, I'd buy it.

Yeah, it fits the evidence we have, anyways.

Indeed we are.

Such jokes!

Then we wonder how high their now gaseous forms might ride on the thermal updraft.

Not too high, I suspect.

I'll call up the guys at Manner Co. They'll live it.

I know that's a typo, but an in universe rival to Mann co calling itself Manner co is something absolutely could see.

I love the continuum of it. Pete quipping casually? You're gonna be webbed upside down outside the local police station. Pete lecturing you about how awful you are with no jokes? You're going to the hospital. Pete dead silent? Hope someone who can hold him back is nearby.

So... Hulk or Thor physically, MJ or May mentally?

Maximum effect, maximum justification.

Feels so good.

It's hard to remember but even now Pete does get a break once in awhile.

He needs them.

Now imagine that being the final words in this thread: No disputes. It gives me a warm feeling to think of it.

Pipe dreams.

Poor Wanda.

A series of bad writers and editorial mandate will do that to you.

Yeah, that

That should be 29 years, not 39, but typos happen. We all know this.

Cyke is funny, adaptations always play into his stoic, tightly wound side to the point of making him unlikable (all the better to shill Logan) and forget how casually quirky and fun he can be. How much beer Logan owes him over billiards, for instance. To see him go for it, as you said, you really gotta go to the comics.

You cannot beat Cyke at Billards. The man sees all the angles.
Like, if someone told me Cykes was secretly a Destiny style pre-cog playing an extreme long game, I'd believe it.

I love BtVS and always will, but it was undeniably at its best when it might be over at any time.

The panic lit a fire under everyone's ass.

I'm missing a reference I think.

Pre-copernican astronomy used epicycles to explain away problems in the geocentric, circular model they assumed was how the stars worksed.

Then the sourcebook needs added emphasis and QFFT everywhere. But I'm not going to Twitter to do it, I cba

Fair enough. Someone else will.

No one is prepared for Grotesqueries. No one.

Except Zero and maybe Caim, and the plan there is the same as it is with everyone else.

Third cousin, twice removed.

But only on alternating weekends.



Also I do think asking why Aerith likes Cloud and to what extent she likes Cloud Cloud as opposed to Zack is an entirely valid question.

 

[Sacky]

I think this is a troll, leave them be lmao.

i can confirm not a troll was in twitch chats spreading the same crap and wrote paragraphs in response with everything from the misinformation website.

 

[Ryushikaze]

"Sephiroth didn't take away Cloud's mother, hometown, sense of self directly. He took Aerith away directly." is a take I had to see today, to explain why "Sephiroth took away Cloud's precious thing" must refer to Aerith and she is thus his beloved because a precious thing could theoretically be your beloved.

Ladies and gentlemen, that is a perfect example of assuming the consequent/ begging the question. This mention of a "precious thing" must be referring to a romantic beloved and thus be Aerith? Why? Because they want anything to mention Aerith as Cloud's beloved.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

She wasn't talking, though.

Yet again we find Tifa communicating without words. It's almost like it's a theme or something.

Man, they're reaching for basically anything at this point.

Tell 'em the self destruct lever is further to the left then, get it over with already.

Oh, I see it's just a kiss on the cheek now. Yeah. It definitely wasn't.

My head spun a little for this. The cheek. Someone honestly said that. Well, not honestly.

Yeah, it fits the evidence we have, anyways.

It could definitely track. So in theory his shitkickery causes Mako poisoning to have a more rapid onset than most, while his relatively weak sense of self makes it more severe?

Such jokes!

They slap me on the knees.

Not too high, I suspect.

You're right, if being made up of hot air was sufficient they'd already be flying high.

I know that's a typo, but an in universe rival to Mann co calling itself Manner co is something absolutely could see.

Can their mercs wear pink? I want their merc teams to wear pink and have oddly polite domination lines.

So... Hulk or Thor physically, MJ or May mentally?

Funny enough, it's often Daredevil. Sin Eater, Kingpin, some generic mooks who went too far, Matt was there to... get wrecked by Spider-Man while Peter's conscience caught up with his fists It hurts less when May or MJ does it.

Feels so good.

Oh yes.

He needs them.

Watch Marvel Editorial put fingers firmly in ears as the fans do cry "it is ok for Peter to be happy damn it!"

Pipe dreams.

Naturally. But nice pipe dreams.

A series of bad writers and editorial mandate will do that to you.

The sad thing is, several of those writers are in fact quite good. Just... not while they were on that specific book.

That should be 29 years, not 39, but typos happen. We all know this.

These are things happen to us all. Typos unite us as a people.

You cannot beat Cyke at Billards. The man sees all the angles.

I love that that's actually part of his mutation. X-Men remains the best at giving out complimentary secondary aspects to big boomy powers.

Like, if someone told me Cykes was secretly a Destiny style pre-cog playing an extreme long game, I'd believe it.

I mean, if someone told me that was his gig all along I'd call bullshit... but with a finessed retcons I'd buy that it's his gig now.

The panic lit a fire under everyone's ass.

I contend that season six was the weakest because they knew seven was already green lit. It's the only season with a cliffhanger for a reason.

Pre-copernican astronomy used epicycles to explain away problems in the geocentric, circular model they assumed was how the stars worksed.

Yeah I was am far too tired to work that out or remember it for myself, so thank you.

Fair enough. Someone else will.

Someone with the power of being arsed. The greatest power.

Except Zero and maybe Caim, and the plan there is the same as it is with everyone else.

Murder. The cause of, and solution to all life's problems.

But only on alternating weekends.

Also I do think asking why Aerith likes Cloud and to what extent she likes Cloud Cloud as opposed to Zack is an entirely valid question.

Seems germane to this thread to me.

"Sephiroth didn't take away Cloud's mother,

Who he openly talks about directly killing in Remake but sure, go on...

hometown, sense of self directly.

Are they actually arguing that burning the entire ground to ashes while cutting down multiple people is indirect? Really?

I'll grant them that Cloud losing his sense of self is on Hojo, but Sephiroth gleefully contributes to Cloud's mental decline so even there no.

He took Aerith away directly." is a take I had to see today, to explain why "Sephiroth took away Cloud's precious thing" must refer to Aerith and she is thus his beloved because a precious thing could theoretically be your beloved.

I know you explained that's not how drawing conclusions works. You're Ryushikaze, the stars shall fall from the heavens before you fail at that. And yet, it still annoys me.

Ladies and gentlemen, that is a perfect example of assuming the consequent/ begging the question. This mention of a "precious thing" must be referring to a romantic beloved and thus be Aerith? Why? Because they want anything to mention Aerith as Cloud's beloved.

Pipe dreams indeed, with this reality.

 

[Yoru]

"Sephiroth didn't take away Cloud's mother, hometown, sense of self directly. He took Aerith away directly." is a take I had to see today, to explain why "Sephiroth took away Cloud's precious thing" must refer to Aerith and she is thus his beloved because a precious thing could theoretically be your beloved.

Ladies and gentlemen, that is a perfect example of assuming the consequent/ begging the question. This mention of a "precious thing" must be referring to a romantic beloved and thus be Aerith? Why? Because they want anything to mention Aerith as Cloud's beloved.

We're talking about people who consider Tifa a background character but have a seizure if Aerith doesn't appear in the LS scene or Under the Highwind.

At some point... you don't have to wonder "what" nonsense they're going to come up with, but rather "when".

 

[Sacky]

"Sephiroth didn't take away Cloud's mother, hometown, sense of self directly. He took Aerith away directly." is a take I had to see today, to explain why "Sephiroth took away Cloud's precious thing" must refer to Aerith and she is thus his beloved because a precious thing could theoretically be your beloved.

Ladies and gentlemen, that is a perfect example of assuming the consequent/ begging the question. This mention of a "precious thing" must be referring to a romantic beloved and thus be Aerith? Why? Because they want anything to mention Aerith as Cloud's beloved.

That person who apparently loves to debate (even religion somehow) sure stopped debating and responding and didn't tell me which Japanese translation tools they used to find beloved in that sentence.

 

[Sacky]

We're talking about people who consider Tifa a background character but have a seizure if Aerith doesn't appear in the LS scene or Under the Highwind.

At some point... you don't have to wonder "what" nonsense they're going to come up with, but rather "when".

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/s/Hxb349tU5c

Idk I would have never expected someone to have this Traces of two pasts take and say Crisis core isn't canon because the writers regret it while also having crisis core all over Rebirth XD

 

[pxl_pushr]

"Sephiroth didn't take away Cloud's mother, hometown, sense of self directly. He took Aerith away directly." is a take I had to see today, to explain why "Sephiroth took away Cloud's precious thing" must refer to Aerith and she is thus his beloved because a precious thing could theoretically be your beloved.

Ladies and gentlemen, that is a perfect example of assuming the consequent/ begging the question. This mention of a "precious thing" must be referring to a romantic beloved and thus be Aerith? Why? Because they want anything to mention Aerith as Cloud's beloved.

Cloud: “Mom, Tifa, my town, give it back!”

Sephiroth: “Oh naw, that wasn’t me directly bruv.”

Cloud: “Oh, excuse me sorry about that. May I speak to your manager please?”

Deleting Cloud’s losses before Aerith isn’t the way.

 

[Yoru]

Cloud: “Mom, Tifa, my town, give it back!”

Sephiroth: “Oh naw, that wasn’t me directly bruv.”

Cloud: “Oh, excuse me sorry about that. May I speak to your manager please?”

Deleting Cloud’s losses before Aerith isn’t the way.

That's what irritates me with CAs narrative. And I think that's why I never liked this pairing (the way they describe it)

Cloud has already faced death. He has already lost loved ones to Sephiroth. He had a life before Aerith. That his whole world should end for a girl he met two weeks ago is beyond me.

We're so much in the fairy tale frame of mind that I personally find it crappy.

 

[ViolaaFox]

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/s/Hxb349tU5c

Idk I would have never expected someone to have this Traces of two pasts take and say Crisis core isn't canon because the writers regret it while also having crisis core all over Rebirth XD

"For instance, the relationship between Zack and Aerith ends up shitting on whatever Cloud and Aerith have because it becomes incredibly clear that all Aerith ever saw in Cloud was a substitute for Zack."

I mean that was also hinted in Remake and Rebirth. It's also funny how many people hate CC for shipping reasons.

 

[Yoru]

I mean that was also hinted in Remake and Rebirth. It's also funny how many people hate CC for shipping reasons.

There are roughly two categories of people who hate CC:

• The CAs because this game existing is their ship losing value (CA moments are in fact ZA moments)
• The Genesis deniers because... yeah dude just shut up.

The rest don't give a damn. "The game is okay for a PSP game. The ending is great, by the way" kind of spirit.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Aerith isn't shallow and comes to appreciate Cloud. No matter what any one says I will never ever believe she was just using Cloud.

Edit; Yeah ok, there was a reddit comment. And in general to anyone anywhere that says Aerith is using Cloud. Aerith comes to care about Cloud, she appreciates the journey she took and the memories she formed.

 

[Yoru]

Aerith isn't shallow and comes to appreciate Cloud. No matter what any one says I will never ever believe she was just using Cloud.

There's a difference between doing something willingly and doing something unconsciously. It's still dishonest to say she's only interested in Cloud. If she chooses to stick it to him in the first place, it's because she's just seen a "copy" of Zack fall from the sky. She admits as much to the Gold Saucer. Her mother also understands when she brings Cloud home. Sorry, but it's a fact.

She understands on her own that it's not healthy and that she wants to try to get past it and just be with Cloud. But she doesn't know him. And she'll never get the chance. It's literally the last thing she says to Cloud in the forest before she dies. She tried to find him, but she couldn't.

So yes, she likes Cloud. But "her vision" of Cloud. Not just Cloud.

 

[Rin]

Arguing that Sephiroth didn't take Cloud's mother away "directly" is certainly a choice when that man basically murdered her in front of him and then quoted her final words back to him as a taunt......

These people worry me.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Aerith isn't shallow and comes to appreciate Cloud. No matter what any one says I will never ever believe she was just using Cloud.

There is no need to put words in other peoples mouths like this.

At no point has anyone here said Aerith is shallow, nor has anyone said she doesn’t appreciate Cloud.

Nor is anyone saying she was just using Cloud, or anything remotely to that effect.

No one is intending for you to believe these things, I honestly don’t know where you are getting this from.

For someone who is quick to criticise whenever someone brings up something else someone has said who isn’t present on these forums, even if they haven’t said anything badly about the person themselves, just what they are saying, you also seem to be very hasty in presuming that what people are saying is far worse than what their words actually relate to, that and reading far more into what they are saying, or intend to convey with their choice of words.

 

[Yoru]

So yes, she likes Cloud. But "her vision" of Cloud. Not just Cloud.

And yes I'm quoting myself as the utlimate egocentric in order to emphasize what makes Aerith relation so fascinating.

Because for me, that's the crux of this tragedy. And why it's so hard for her to understand her own feelings and all that "liking and liking."

She falls in love with a fantasy. Because the guy in front of her isn't himself. As he said himself in Gongaga, he doesn't know where Cloud begins or ends in his subconscious. If he doesn't know, she doesn't know either.

That's why it's sad. She's not even sure the person she loves is real. Is the part of Zack she started to see at first sight are a part of Cloud or not? And if, in the end, it isn't there at all, will she still love him? We don't know, because nobody can know. And she'll be dead long before we can even begin to think about it.

 

[Rin]

And yes I'm quoting myself as the utlimate egocentric in order to emphasize what makes Aerith relation so fascinating.

Because for me, that's the crux of this tragedy. And why it's so hard for her to understand her own feelings and all that "liking and liking."

She falls in love with a fantasy. Because the guy in front of her isn't himself. As he said himself in Gongaga, he doesn't know where Cloud begins or ends in his subconscious. If he doesn't know, she doesn't know either.

That's why it's sad. She's not even sure the person she loves is real. Is the part of Zack she started to see at first sight are a part of Cloud or not? And if, in the end, it isn't there at all, will she still love him? We don't know, because nobody can know. And she'll be dead long before we can even begin to think about it.

This, personally, is what makes Clerith a "good ship". The relationship is meant to be tragic and bittersweet for all the reasons you stated here. This doesn't mean that it's been made for players not to enjoy, in fact it's the opposite. You ARE supposed to enjoy Clerith for what they are and how they've been portrayed. You're not supposed to believe it's true love and that they'll wind up together, but just because it's not true love and they don't wind up together doesn't mean it's not a deeply touching relationship crafted to appeal to the player and get them invested in their dynamic.

And this is why the LTD is annoying because it feels like no one appreciates CA for what it represents in the narrative and why the devs have included it.