SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[eleamaya]

But there are people that genuinely like Zerith. Just as there are people that prefer Zack over Cloud as a favorite character.

It's a way of getting rid of the opposition to the ship but in a way you can plausibly deny with good optics. CA often declare that anyone shipping ZA is just doing this to keep Aerith out of the way of the CT pair... somehow.

We also prefer Aerith over Tifa as favorite heroine. But ofc, to them, we don't exist. It's frustrating when they just reduce us as "Clotis in disguise" or "Zack-fanboy who want Aerith as his property".... actually, I'm tired to those discourse of her moving on, and as I ever said, Clotis make it worse because most of them doesn't care of Aerith at all. So the argument just keep being circle.

It's even funnier when you remember some of them are shipping Zack and Elmyra.

I thought I've said here multiple time that it was a joke I started on Twitter. Just like I joke "Oh look, everyone wanna kiss Cloud"

 

[GamerSkull]

I thought I've said here multiple time that it was a joke I started on Twitter. Just like I joke "Oh look, everyone wanna kiss Cloud"

Yeah, but I’ve seen some that actually say they’re down for it.

Also, in relation to this, I actually like Zack more than Cloud. But I will admit Cloud has a more compelling character arc. So I ship Zerith because I like both characters involved. Shipping Cloti is separate from that. But too many seem to imply I only like the former so it doesn’t get in the way of Cloti.

In fact, I’ve seen some imply that people like Tifa only because they’re gooners. As if to say, nobody could actually like her for her well-done character arc and personality.

 

[eleamaya]

In fact, I’ve seen some imply that people like Tifa only because they’re gooners. As if to say, nobody could actually like her for her well-done character arc and personality.

Well, FFVII is created by men, it's very Shounen in vibe. And which 90s shounen doesnt have female character with big boobs and sexy look? But people grow up, the devs are getting older and wiser, they realize their mistake just as Nojima admit he wrote Barret with such black stereotype in the past and now write Tifa herself doesn't like how men look at her body sexually; Nomura also redesign her costume to cover part of her chest and leg. Though, we still see a little fanservice even in Rebirth to male audience/readers, Costa del Sol. And I'm saying this not because I hate Tifa, I would never have. Just like in other Shounen like One Piece who has female characters with big boobs; Nami, Robin, and Boa Hancock is much much more than their body--they're empowered women, and all have tragic pasts; casual fans of the series know that and appreciate it. Certain group just extremely hate so they love to reduce that female characters only about her looks.

 

[Ryeleigh]

But too many seem to imply I only like the former so it doesn’t get in the way of Cloti.

That mindset has always been so weird and funny to me. Like, people don't have to ship another pairing just to "get it out of the way" of their preferred pairing? Seems like way too much work when you could just focus on the ship you like, lol.

Well, FFVII is created by men, it's very Shounen in vibe. And which 90s shounen doesnt have female character with big boobs and sexy look? But people grow up, the devs are getting older and wiser, they realize their mistake just as Nojima admit he wrote Barret with such black stereotype in the past and now write Tifa herself doesn't like how men look at her body sexually; Nomura also redesign her costume to cover part of her chest and leg. Though, we still see a little fanservice even in Rebirth to male audience/readers, Costa del Sol. And I'm saying this not because I hate Tifa, I would never have. Just like in other Shounen like One Piece who has female characters with big boobs; Nami, Robin, and Boa Hancock is much much more than their body--they're empowered women, and all have tragic pasts; casual fans of the series know that and appreciate it. Certain group just extremely hate so they love to reduce that female characters only about her looks.

I'm reminded of Aomine Daiki's words, either in the anime or the manga, though I can't remember how exactly it was phrased: something that women's boobs hold a man's dreams, lol. So it's like men (and women too!) like boobs. It's not that deep. It doesn't mean that female characters with boobs can't be fully-realised characters nevertheless. And if the female character is fully-realised and you (general you) don't realise that just because you can't look past the boobs, then maybe you're the problem, lol.

 

[Ryushikaze]

We also prefer Aerith over Tifa as favorite heroine. But ofc, to them, we don't exist. It's frustrating when they just reduce us as "Clotis in disguise" or "Zack-fanboy who want Aerith as his property".... actually, I'm tired to those discourse of her moving on, and as I ever said, Clotis make it worse because most of them doesn't care of Aerith at all. So the argument just keep being circle.

I've seen some of the CAs shitting on you using just that rhetoric, yes. Sorry you have to deal with that shit.

I thought I've said here multiple time that it was a joke I started on Twitter. Just like I joke "Oh look, everyone wanna kiss Cloud"

As GS Said, it seems people are taking it seriously, or at least saying they are.

Yeah, but I’ve seen some that actually say they’re down for it.

Also, in relation to this, I actually like Zack more than Cloud. But I will admit Cloud has a more compelling character arc. So I ship Zerith because I like both characters involved. Shipping Cloti is separate from that. But too many seem to imply I only like the former so it doesn’t get in the way of Cloti.

In fact, I’ve seen some imply that people like Tifa only because they’re gooners. As if to say, nobody could actually like her for her well-done character arc and personality.

ZA and CT are what the story is pushing. That's why I "support" them as pairings. In a related note, I do not think the narrative is pushing, for example, Elena and Tseng despite her having clear feelings for him, so I don't "support" that one. I ain't gonna so no to fun fanart, mind.
That both of the ZA and CT pairings are very narratively satisfying and cute together is a bonus.

Well, FFVII is created by men, it's very Shounen in vibe. And which 90s shounen doesnt have female character with big boobs and sexy look? But people grow up, the devs are getting older and wiser, they realize their mistake just as Nojima admit he wrote Barret with such black stereotype in the past and now write Tifa herself doesn't like how men look at her body sexually; Nomura also redesign her costume to cover part of her chest and leg. Though, we still see a little fanservice even in Rebirth to male audience/readers, Costa del Sol. And I'm saying this not because I hate Tifa, I would never have. Just like in other Shounen like One Piece who has female characters with big boobs; Nami, Robin, and Boa Hancock is much much more than their body--they're empowered women, and all have tragic pasts; casual fans of the series know that and appreciate it. Certain group just extremely hate so they love to reduce that female characters only about her looks.

I know it's not just women who hate Tifa for her looks, but there is an old saying "No one hates a woman more than another woman" and that's what the people who hate her for her looks always makes me think of.

That mindset has always been so weird and funny to me. Like, people don't have to ship another pairing just to "get it out of the way" of their preferred pairing? Seems like way too much work when you could just focus on the ship you like, lol.

If I had to guess? Intrusive thoughts about the official pair/ competing point in the triangle. Hence the need to remove them from the equation.

I'm reminded of Aomine Daiki's words, either in the anime or the manga, though I can't remember how exactly it was phrased: something that women's boobs hold a man's dreams, lol. So it's like men (and women too!) like boobs. It's not that deep. It doesn't mean that female characters with boobs can't be fully-realised characters nevertheless. And if the female character is fully-realised and you (general you) don't realise that just because you can't look past the boobs, then maybe you're the problem, lol.

Having never seen the series, was it something like "Large Breasts are a young man's romance" or the like?

 

[Ryeleigh]

Having never seen the series, was it something like "Large Breasts are a young man's romance" or the like?

Aww, I don't remember the exact phrasing but yes, that was the sentiment behind it, lol.

 

[Stiggie]

But people grow up, the devs are getting older and wiser, they realize their mistake

What mistake? There is nothing wrong with sexuality, and incase you've forgotten, Aerith and Yuffie existed in the OG as well, neither of whom have large breasts. Saying there is something wrong with the way OG Tifa dresses, or looks, isn't as progressive as I think you thought it was.

 

[eleamaya]

What mistake? There is nothing wrong with sexuality, and incase you've forgotten, Aerith and Yuffie existed in the OG as well, neither of whom have large breasts. Saying there is something wrong with the way OG Tifa dresses, or looks, isn't as progressive as I think you thought it was.

Actually, growing up with various manga including Shounen, I never have problem with how female characters is dressed there and the joke. Heck, one of my fave trope is even chivalrous pervert lol. I just learned it from the discourse, and probably the devs heard it too. That's what I mean, it's different era now, what we thought it was not an issue in the past is now advocated.

 

[GamerSkull]

Tbh, I think Tifa’s redesign is less to do with fanservice and more to do with fitting her into the style of the remake trilogy. The extra clothing (particularly the black) just helps her clothes be more… cohesive. I can’t think of the word, but an example is the belt and tights on Batman, it breaks up the rest of the suit to make it look more…. idk? My vocabulary is failing me now.

She’s not the only one though. Aerith’s clothes have been redesigned. In particular, I’m thinking of the clothing under her jacket. They made it look more like a… gown now.

Idk I’m not very knowledgeable on fashion terms. But hopefully you all know what I mean.

 

[Shadowstorm]

I'm just grateful they thought to give her a sports bra. If they hadn't I'd be cringing at how painful all that martial arts must be

 

[redoak77]

Has anyone ever read the Dilly Dally Shilly Shally analysis by Squall_of_SeeD on one of the threads of this forum? I was kinda curious as to what kind of arguments people had in the past regarding the LTD, and stumble upon a couple of quotes by Kitase and Nojima, that honestly, made me kinda question every position I had on this entire debate.

Here is the quote from Kitase:

Aerith’s love for Cloud is well-established by this point, and Cloud’s romantic feelings for her require little more proof than this statement from Yoshinori Kitase on pg. 11 of the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

—
Having 2 heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, that was something new.

And here is the one from Nojima:

Consider: In the On the Way to a Smile interview in which Kazushige Nojima talked about Cloud and Tifa’s relationship as it was portrayed in Episode:Tifa, he also ruminated on how things might have gone with Aerith had Cloud ended up with her instead. There would be no need to do that if it was never even a possibility.

If in need of a fresh reminder of those comments, see below:

—
“Episode:Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think. Oh, I remember. I also wanted to write about Cloud through Tifa. It certainly can be difficult to ascertain his feelings. (laughs)”

I'm going to preface my thoughts by saying that my entry into this series was ACC, not the OG.

Now, I don't know how well these and the other quotes in that lengthy post hold up to today, but I gotta say, they make a strong argument that I've never seen before-and quite honestly, I don't know what to make of it. Personally, I've never been of the belief that "one ship doesn't discredit the other". Considering the fact of how rocky Cloud and Tifa's relationship is in the game, it kinda makes it feel overtly toxic to me if you add the fact that he was wavering between both women at one point.


Maybe I'm seeing in the wrong way?

 

[Shadowstorm]

Toxic feels like a bit too strong a word to describe it to me. I'm not denying that they habe their problem but for two heavily traumatized people in their early 20's under a lot of pressure I think they actually do pretty okay. FF7 is more interested in exploring real stuff over fairytales after all and their impact on each other is far more positive than negative in my opinion.

Even their problems in ACC feel like a very standard action movie thing, and I think it's very telling that Tifa's lecture to Cloud is the turning point for his character there. The relationship itself was never the problem.

The "wavering between girls" especially doesn't feel like a problem. It's totally normal to have romantic feelings for more than one person. Especially in fiction that's like saying love triangles can never be resolved in any way other than neither ship getting together.

 

[GamerSkull]

Toxic feels like a bit too strong a word to describe it to me. I'm not denying that they habe their problem but for two heavily traumatized people in their early 20's under a lot of pressure I think they actually do pretty okay. FF7 is more interested in exploring real stuff over fairytales after all and their impact on each other is far more positive than negative in my opinion.

Even their problems in ACC feel like a very standard action movie thing, and I think it's very telling that Tifa's lecture to Cloud is the turning point for his character there. The relationship itself was never the problem.

The "wavering between girls" especially doesn't feel like a problem. It's totally normal to have romantic feelings for more than one person. Especially in fiction that's like saying love triangles can never be resolved in any way other than neither ship getting together.

To add to this, one of the interviews says “Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big.”

I think refers to more the fact that on average, Aerith would always have to try harder to get Cloud to reciprocate. Which is something we see in Rebirth. I’m thinking of two particular side quests that showcase this. In Costa Del Sol, during the Aerith date side quest, one of the lines pertains to food and Cloud kind of waives it off by saying food is food. But then his side quest with Tifa in the same area has them talking about foods in detail…

There’s a lot of examples like that that showcase the difference in Cloud’s responses to the two.

 

[Shadowstorm]

To add to this, one of the interviews says “Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big.”

I think refers to more the fact that on average, Aerith would always have to try harder to get Cloud to reciprocate. Which is something we see in Rebirth. I’m thinking of two particular side quests that showcase this. In Costa Del Sol, during the Aerith date side quest, one of the lines pertains to food and Cloud kind of waives it off by saying food is food. But then his side quest with Tifa in the same area has then talking about the foods they like…

There’s a lot of examples like that that showcase the difference in Cloud’s responses to the two.

That's very true!! It definitely feels intentional that one of those quests leads into the other. Cloud obviously cares about Aerith but he's clearly more comfortable in his interactions with Tifa, as well as more willing to take the initiative.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

"Having 2 heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, that was something new."

Ehh, I think it'd be best to change the way most people understand this quote. The context here was Kitase talking about the scenario, and if we're really saying "the hero = Cloud"—it's just, literally not the actual scenario in the game for the character. Like, as to the word "literal" as I can mean—it isn't expressed from the character or is a plot point at all of Cloud having some conflict of "Aerith or Tifa? Can't decide". Just didn't happen.

Versus, if "the hero = player", in vein of what Kitase meant, then that can actually have something to stand on to make sense. In that, this was the first scenario where the player could have choice/favor between two heroines and have all these choices that give different reactions/rewards—no FF game did this before 7 at that time. Any player could literally in their experience waver between the two and that would impact their individual gameplay, but as an aside to the strict story.

I'd rather go with the latter perspective because it's the only one that makes sense, I'd say.

 

[GamerSkull]

That's very true!! It definitely feels intentional that one of those quests leads into the other. Cloud obviously cares about Aerith but he's clearly more comfortable in his interactions with Tifa, as well as more willing to take the initiative.

Yeah, you have to finish the one with Aerith to even unlock the one with Tifa. There’s another example in the 1st date with Tifa and Aerith at Gold Saucer. If Tifa’s at the door, she asks if Cloud if he’s up for exploring with her and he responds with interest. If it’s Aerith she starts implying it is a date and Cloud seems unsure what she’s getting at.

Ultimately, I’m not saying one or the other is better but Cloud does have different responses for sure.

 

[redoak77]

Toxic feels like a bit too strong a word to describe it to me. I'm not denying that they habe their problem but for two heavily traumatized people in their early 20's under a lot of pressure I think they actually do pretty okay. FF7 is more interested in exploring real stuff over fairytales after all and their impact on each other is far more positive than negative in my opinion.

Even their problems in ACC feel like a very standard action movie thing, and I think it's very telling that Tifa's lecture to Cloud is the turning point for his character there. The relationship itself was never the problem.

The "wavering between girls" especially doesn't feel like a problem. It's totally normal to have romantic feelings for more than one person. Especially in fiction that's like saying love triangles can never be resolved in any way other than neither ship getting together.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to describe it as "toxic". You're telling me Cloud dips on his "family" because he feels guilty about a woman he used to be in love with? Framing it that way, he might just be the biggest douchebag protagonist in the series. I don't know if it just be my age, but him skipping town on a supposed partner and kids for ANY reason seems indefensible.

 

[Shadowstorm]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to describe it as "toxic". You're telling me Cloud dips on his "family" because he feels guilty about a woman he used to be in love with? Framing it that way, he might just be the biggest douchebag protagonist in the series. I don't know if it just be my age, but him skipping town on a supposed partner and kids for ANY reason seems indefensible.

Well, I never said he didn't screw up majorly. It's totally fair if you can't find yourself liking him or the relationship after that. It's just that I personally am not one to dismiss an entire relationship by actions taken at it's lowest point, but everyone has different standards there. I know my own experiences with mental health, both my own and that of my loved ones, pushes me to be more sympathetic, but that's a very subjective thing.

I do think it's a little unfair to describe his motivations only as guilt about a woman he used to be in love with though. His survivor's guilt was just as much about Zack as it was about Aerith, and he felt powerless to protect his family especially once he caught the same terminal illness Denzel had. It doesn't make it okay but him isolating himself from his family in his fear and self-loathing is a very realistic response, and I don't think it invalidates everything that's been good about that relationship. Tifa would be absolutely valid for leaving him for it too, but given that she doesn't I'd say that for her the good times are worth the bad ones.

 

[GamerSkull]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to describe it as "toxic". You're telling me Cloud dips on his "family" because he feels guilty about a woman he used to be in love with? Framing it that way, he might just be the biggest douchebag protagonist in the series. I don't know if it just be my age, but him skipping town on a supposed partner and kids for ANY reason seems indefensible.

I believe the actual canon reason is a combination of feeling helpless about Denzel’s situation and also contracting geostigma himself. Aerith plays into it in the sense that it’s just another person he feels guilty for being unable to save. I really doubt he’s pining after Aerith… and that’s the reason he dips. Cloud is actually happy with Tifa… which is the issue, in that he feels like he doesn’t deserve it or he’s gonna let them down somehow.

Which is why in the movie, he asks the Turks to go save the kids… which causes Tifa to give him a lecture. Because she is absolutely right that fear of failure shouldn’t stop him from still trying.

I think it’s actually pretty realistic for couples to go through low points and come out the other side… which I believe is what the movie portrays.

That being said AC could definitely have depicted this better.

 

[redoak77]

I believe the actual canon reason is a combination of feeling helpless about Denzel’s situation and also contracting geostigma himself. Aerith plays into it in the sense that it’s just another person he feels guilty for being unable to save. I really doubt he’s pining after Aerith… and that’s the reason he dips. Cloud is actually happy with Tifa… which is the issue, in that he feels like he doesn’t deserve it or he’s gonna let them down somehow.

Which is why in the movie, he asks the Turks to go save the kids… which causes Tifa to give him a lecture. Because she is absolutely right that fear of failure shouldn’t stop him from still trying.

I think it’s actually pretty realistic for couples to go through low points and come out the other side… which I believe is what the movie portrays.

That being said AC could definitely have depicted this better.

Here would be my point: can you make the argument in good faith that he’s NOT pining over Aerith? Why keep it so overly vague? The fact that Cloud was actually happy in his situation with Tifa and the kids now feels so empty because Nojima and co went out of their way to show all the low points in their relationship and left all the high points to the viewer’s imagination. I’m sorry, but Cloud is a poor partner in ACC, and him even potentially pining for Aerith adds a whole new layer to the shit cake.

 

[GamerSkull]

Here would be my point: can you make the argument in good faith that he’s NOT pining over Aerith? Why keep it so overly vague? The fact that Cloud was actually happy in his situation with Tifa and the kids now feels so empty because Nojima and co went out of their way to show all the low points in their relationship and left all the high points to the viewer’s imagination. I’m sorry, but Cloud is a poor partner in ACC, and him even potentially pining for Aerith adds a whole new layer to the shit cake.

I agree that ACC didn’t depict things well.

However, I do not think he’s pining after Aerith. It doesn’t really make much sense in context. And I don’t believe it’s vague either…. that is essentially the reason he left. I do think he feels guilty and I think you can twist that to mean he’s pining after Aerith but nothing points to that. He feels guilty, not just for her but for Zack as well. You can see this when he fixes the Buster Sword grave and speaks about being unsure if he could even live for Zack. But then he affirms he can by stating he is Zack’s living legacy at the end.

And he affirms that he’s all good now… to Aerith at the end too. He’s not alone anymore so he doesn’t need to feel guilty. He has realized that.

I also agree the devs are a bit wishy washy about things because they don’t want to anger either side. But if Rebirth is any indication, I believe they’ve chosen to end this debate.

 

[redoak77]

I agree that ACC didn’t depict things well.

However, I do not think he’s pining after Aerith. It doesn’t really make much sense in context. And I don’t believe it’s vague either…. that is essentially the reason he left. I do think he feels guilty and I think you can twist that to mean he’s pining after Aerith but nothing points to that. He feels guilty, not just for her but for Zack as well. You can see this when he fixes the Buster Sword grave and speaks about being unsure if he could even live for Zack. But then he affirms he can by stating he is Zack’s living legacy at the end.

And he affirms that he’s all good now… to Aerith at the end too. He’s not alone anymore so he doesn’t need to feel guilty. He has realized that.

I also agree the devs are a bit wishy washy about things because they don’t want to anger either side. But if Rebirth is any indication, I believe they’ve chosen to end this debate.

We agree that they didn’t depict things well, at least. Here’s my onus then: if Cloud is canonically wavering between T and A, does that ever change after her death? Why would it change, if the guilt of her dying fucks with his life well after she passed? Why is he specifically needing a forgiveness from her if that isn’t the case? He talks to her and Zack, but it’s with her that he gets melodramatic. I mean shit, go forward all the way to Rebirth. Aerith dies, and Mr. Hardass turns on the waterworks. He doesn’t apologize to Tifa after he tries to kill her.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

We agree that they didn’t depict things well, at least. Here’s my onus then: if Cloud is canonically wavering between T and A, does that ever change after her death? Why would it change, if the guilt of her dying fucks with his life well after she passed? Why is he specifically needing a forgiveness from her if that isn’t the case? He talks to her and Zack, but it’s with her that he gets melodramatic. I mean shit, go forward all the way to Rebirth. Aerith dies, and Mr. Hardass turns on the waterworks. He doesn’t apologize to Tifa after he tries to kill her.

Cloud's Survivor's Guilt for Aerith hit him harder not because he loved her romantically, but because he failed to save her while he was under Jenova/Sephiroth's control, plus Denzel's Geostigma and him getting it too made him doubt himself. Remember Cloud is plagued with mental weaknesses all his life and he did what he always did; running from his problems. Until Tifa lectured him some "Tough Love" he decided to face his problems. He asked Aerith for forgiveness because he blamed himself for what happened to her. Cloud kinda apologize to Tifa when opening himself to her in Gongaga.

 

[redoak77]

Cloud's Survivor's Guilt for Aerith hit him harder not because he loved her romantically, but because he failed to save her while he was under Jenova/Sephiroth's control

You see, here’s the thing: I don’t know if we know that for a fact anymore. A great deal of the writing in the Case of Tifa and in AC involves the rockiness in their relationship. The fighting, Tifa’s insecurity, how generally closed off Cloud is with her with everything to point it feels like he’s callous. The scene where he brushes her off when she asks if he loves her, it feels like he plays dumb and then brushes her off at the end. Or the scene where he goes to the FC to take flowers for Aerith’s grave without telling her. Or when he brushes her off again to drink by himself. I understand not everyone can be a dotting partner, but now, I feel like he’s outright inconsiderate.

 

[GamerSkull]

I mean, AC takes the stance that the way Cloud is acting is WRONG. And that he lets go by the end.

And he confirms in TKAA that the four of them have gone back to being a family again.

I understand your perspective but I don’t particularly agree with it. That’s kind of the issue with AC though. Cloud is presented as being wrong up until he finally goes to the Forgotten City, which he does after Tifa points out why he’s wrong.

He also says he wants to be “forgiven”. Which is just confirmation it is guilt that is eating up at him. Which doesn’t necessarily equate to him pining after a dead woman. Especially since he clearly feels the same way about Zack.