SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryeleigh]

"Having 2 heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, that was something new."

Ehh, I think it'd be best to change the way most people understand this quote. The context here was Kitase talking about the scenario, and if we're really saying "the hero = Cloud"—it's just, literally not the actual scenario in the game for the character. Like, as to the word "literal" as I can mean—it isn't expressed from the character or is a plot point at all of Cloud having some conflict of "Aerith or Tifa? Can't decide". Just didn't happen.

Versus, if "the hero = player", in vein of what Kitase meant, then that can actually have something to stand on to make sense. In that, this was the first scenario where the player could have choice/favor between two heroines and have all these choices that give different reactions/rewards—no FF game did this before 7 at that time. Any player could literally in their experience waver between the two and that would impact their individual gameplay, but as an aside to the strict story.

I'd rather go with the latter perspective because it's the only one that makes sense, I'd say.

Especially if you couple it with the quote (paraphrased): "The player likes Aerith but because of the story he's stuck with Tifa".

I believe the actual canon reason is a combination of feeling helpless about Denzel’s situation and also contracting geostigma himself. Aerith plays into it in the sense that it’s just another person he feels guilty for being unable to save. I really doubt he’s pining after Aerith… and that’s the reason he dips. Cloud is actually happy with Tifa… which is the issue, in that he feels like he doesn’t deserve it or he’s gonna let them down somehow.

To be honest, I think the reason why the movie has Cloud feeling guilty over Aerith's death is so the movie could even have Aerith in it, lol. And, well, that was where their relationship ended in the game: her dying right in front of his face, after he'd tried to kill her himself (under Sephiroth's control). And the movie kind of deified her, I think, into this Mother Goddess type of character which is why the focus is "I want to be forgiven" if I still recall correctly. Not even "I want you to forgive me". Just "I want to be forgiven".

Which gets me to the second point. If the movie was really about Cloud's unresolved romantic feelings for Aerith then you don't have him call her mom, lmao. While Aerith is hanging around with her (ex)-boyfriend and joking that he's too big to adopt. And then leaves with him while the last shot of the two of them, symbolically, is Zack's sword in Aerith's church and her flowers on his grave.

Like, that's the plain surface reading that the average watcher gets out of it. Then you get into shipping which kind of tends to hyperfocus on individual details and go over them with a microscope.

 

[Nancy]

To be honest, I think the reason why the movie has Cloud feeling guilty over Aerith's death is so the movie could even have Aerith in it, lol.

Looks like the same could be said about Zack, lol. The devs didn't want ppl to think Cloud is only guilty about Aerith so they put Zack in there too.

 

[MissMDusk]

My only stance for the ACC Cloud "pining" after Aerith after she's dead is... Why didn't he just... Jump off a roof? I'm serious, no one was stopping him from doing it. If he really felt all "suicidal" and "pining" after her, he might as well...

And no I'm not advocating for him to do it at all. I'm just saying that if this is all what's he's feeling for the (max, 7-10) days he left Tifa and the kids, imo it doesn't make sense Cloud wouldn't just do it? It's why it makes more sense that he feels more helpless about Denzel, himself, and guilt over Aerith... And Zack to be honest.

However, I must say that my confidence in CT is slightly wavering the more I wait for P3. Not about whether they'll confirm CT, I mean they're pretty much confirmed anyway, but how much they'll leave to interpretation about CA.

At least I found out that it was Nojima who created the scenarios around the dates, so the main scenario writer wanted that kiss to be implemented

 

[Ryeleigh]

However, I must say that my confidence in CT is slightly wavering the more I wait for P3. Not about whether they'll confirm CT, I mean they're pretty much confirmed anyway, but how much they'll leave to interpretation about CA.

Considering that pesky wrench, Zack, is in the story and his singular motivation is to reunite with Aerith, I honestly can't imagine the devs adding anything ambiguous to Cloud and Aerith's relationship at least? Will they have Cloud look at the camera and go "I never had romantic feelings for Aerith"? Probably not, lol. Oh, wait. They already had him call her 'nakama' so I guess that's the equivalent, lol.

 

[MissMDusk]

Considering that pesky wrench, Zack, is in the story and his singular motivation is to reunite with Aerith, I honestly can't imagine the devs adding anything ambiguous to Cloud and Aerith's relationship at least? Will they have Cloud look at the camera and go "I never had romantic feelings for Aerith"? Probably not, lol. Oh, wait. They already had him call her 'nakama' so I guess that's the equivalent, lol.

Lol yes, though the English version decided to remove that part... Wonder why...

And everytime I see Cloud's face when he clearly understood what Aerith was getting at in that dream date, and then deflected as far as I'm concerned... Yeah it feels like a case closed situation.

But then I look at the whole game and I'm just like... Maybe?? But if there's even a weird maybe, I feel the story falls flat on its face. For me personally, if Cloud did develop feelings for Aerith that were equally as strong as his for Tifa, then the reason for his whole identity crisis doesn't work. But that's just me.

 

[Reaper3Delta]

You see, here’s the thing: I don’t know if we know that for a fact anymore. A great deal of the writing in the Case of Tifa and in AC involves the rockiness in their relationship. The fighting, Tifa’s insecurity, how generally closed off Cloud is with her with everything to point it feels like he’s callous. The scene where he brushes her off when she asks if he loves her, it feels like he plays dumb and then brushes her off at the end. Or the scene where he goes to the FC to take flowers for Aerith’s grave without telling her. Or when he brushes her off again to drink by himself. I understand not everyone can be a dotting partner, but now, I feel like he’s outright inconsiderate.

TBH a lot have changed since ACC , books and a lot of of Dev quotes from 10-15-27 years ago. The Remake saga counting CCR is retconning a lot of the story of FF7. When Advent Children released in 2004-2005 there was no FF7 Compilation at the time, now 2024 there is one. The Dev said that Remake project leaves little or no room for interpretation. ACC needs to be updated to the Remake changes.

 

[Nancy]

Lol yes, though the English version decided to remove that part... Wonder why...

And everytime I see Cloud's face when he clearly understood what Aerith was getting at in that dream date, and then deflected as far as I'm concerned... Yeah it feels like a case closed situation.

But then I look at the whole game and I'm just like... Maybe?? But if there's even a weird maybe, I feel the story falls flat on its face. For me personally, if Cloud did develop feelings for Aerith that were equally as strong as his for Tifa, then the reason for his whole identity crisis doesn't work. But that's just me.

The English change and remove a lot so it isn't really a surprise hahaha

I think if Cloud's feelings for Aerith is as strong as his feelings for Tifa he would have made a move or confirm that he does feel the same way instead of acting like he's clueless to what she is saying

 

[Reaper3Delta]

The English change and remove a lot so it isn't really a surprise hahaha

I think if Cloud's feelings for Aerith is as strong as his feelings for Tifa he would have made a move or confirm that he does feel the same way instead of acting like he's clueless to what she is saying

Exactly, plenty opportunities in those 1K Dates and... nothing. Cloud is not that dense as people think. With Tifa, He knew what she meant at once and wasted no time. He understood what Aerith was talking about too and reflected her advances. Cloud was using a maxed Reflect Materia while hanging with Aerith LoL.

 

[redoak77]

To be honest, I think the reason why the movie has Cloud feeling guilty over Aerith's death is so the movie could even have Aerith in it, lol. And, well, that was where their relationship ended in the game: her dying right in front of his face, after he'd tried to kill her himself (under Sephiroth's control). And the movie kind of deified her, I think, into this Mother Goddess type of character which is why the focus is "I want to be forgiven" if I still recall correctly. Not even "I want you to forgive me". Just "I want to be forgiven".

Which gets me to the second point. If the movie was really about Cloud's unresolved romantic feelings for Aerith then you don't have him call her mom, lmao. While Aerith is hanging around with her (ex)-boyfriend and joking that he's too big to adopt. And then leaves with him while the last shot of the two of them, symbolically, is Zack's sword in Aerith's church and her flowers on his grave.

Like, that's the plain surface reading that the average watcher gets out of it. Then you get into shipping which kind of tends to hyperfocus on individual details and go over them with a microscope.

One wouldn't think she were dead considering the amount of presence that she gets. Every possible scene they could think of, she gets shoe horned in.

As to your second point, I can see that, but then again: why all the melodrama when Aerith is on screen? That one scene where they're standing back to back that they just HAD to reference in Rebirth stands out. Or in that Bahamut jump where they made extra sure to include her in as well.

I went back to see if I remembered this quote correctly:

Although there’s a lot to Tifa’s character, she’s actually very much like any other woman who’s been left behind by a man.— Final Fantasy VII Advent Children - Reunion Files - p.20 (Nojima)

With the added context of the "wavering", I think I'm finding myself asking if the correct read here is that Cloud is genuinely heartless and cruel. I know that a lot of people argue that Cloud would never be written to be a bad person, but how is it that devs INSIST that the viewers form their own opinions on the characters while at the same time creating enough vagueness to where it is beyond easy to come off with the wrong impression? Or are there no wrong impressions?

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Here would be my point: can you make the argument in good faith that he’s NOT pining over Aerith? Why keep it so overly vague? The fact that Cloud was actually happy in his situation with Tifa and the kids now feels so empty because Nojima and co went out of their way to show all the low points in their relationship and left all the high points to the viewer’s imagination. I’m sorry, but Cloud is a poor partner in ACC, and him even potentially pining for Aerith adds a whole new layer to the shit cake.

Proposed past context of romanticism ≠ pining, if said character (or person) is feeling something from their death. It would be a hard hill to say that this was vague considering what has been expressed and said in all supporting material.

I'd say it's easily a good faith argument, if even rather a strict one, because it's what is supplemented by the plot and other paratextual materials, in either a proven way or that of logical connection. The "pining" action comes from an audience perspective of Cloud wanting to be with her romantically and lamenting that he can't because she's dead (which, has it's own split differences from just having any amount of romantic feeling)—both of these things aren't firm to believe in the most adamant sense (hence two decades worth of argumentation, most likely), but also, the specific proposed character motivation that is blatantly being said here is literally not what his problem IS, and this isn't expressed at all in the story. Guilt, regret, low self value, and moving on from past events—the deaths of Zack and Aerith and suffering from Geostigma are pushing THESE emotions and lead his actions, and are the only things that have been described within the actual film and supporting materials.

Now at best, if in good faith with believing Cloud did have any amount of romantic feelings for Aerith (again, slightly different the specific motivation to be with her through pining)—you'd be just saying that Cloud has been affected very heavily by the loss of someone he had romantic feelings for. Simple statement—which is not the same as saying he's currently pining (i.e. actively wants to be with her) for her because that depends on a numerous lines of conjecture that can't be backed up reliably. This is a big step away form the reasonable thought of Cloud having romantic feelings for her during the OG. It would also be reasonable to understand why Tifa would feel mixed feelings about Cloud's emotional degradation from Aerith's death (which is supported by the movie + supplemental material), because on paper at glance, your partner feeling anything for someone they felt any amount of romance for is a "no-no", but the reality of their situation (and how it works in real life emotions), should in good faith, allow all the information saying it's about guilt, regret, low self value, and moving on from past events, as a true answer as opposed to Tifa being sad because Cloud wants to be in love with Aerith instead of her, which isn't presented in the story or supported materials.

Media begets interpretation, so I'm not surprised that this is one of many interpretations out there. It's just that when you get to the nitty gritty, it's simply a non-component of the story outside of one's knee jerk interpretation. Whether they played OG or not—people's surface level understanding of relationships can easily trigger this interpretation about what Cloud is feeling in AC. Understandable, but step further in, and it becomes less so.

 

[Shadowstorm]

I think at a certain point you also have to acknowledge that ACC is a pretty basic action movie functioning as a sequel to a popular videogame. The main hero having some kind of flaw that negatively impacts his relationship with his love interest and/or family leaving him at a low point before the plot kicks in until he's eventually forced to face his demons, leaving him to resolve his personal issues so that he can face the main threat and go back to a happier life once all is said and done is incredibly formulaic. I highly doubt they were shooting for something more complex than that.

Just keeping it to videogame comparisons: Nate and Elena start off every Uncharted game either broken up or having problems as a result of Nate's issues, but the message there is never that they're bad for each other. It's that Nate needs to work out his shit so he can be with the person that makes him happy. Peter and MJ start the ps4 Spider-Man game broken up not because the game is telling you they shouldn't be a couple, but so that you can root for them to work things out with each other as well as save the city. You can argue about the quality of the execution, I certainly think that, while better than I expected from a 2-hour long action movie sequel created by people with no experience making movies, it fumbled quite a bit, but to say the intent was to paint Cloud as unforgivable feels like a bit of a reach to me.

As for Aerith, she was one of the main trio in FF7, her death is the most iconic moment in the game, and one of the most iconic moments of in gaming history. It was never not going to play a prominent part in the story and rightly so. It's not like the original game actually gave the characters space to grieve.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Here would be my point: can you make the argument in good faith that he’s NOT pining over Aerith? Why keep it so overly vague? The fact that Cloud was actually happy in his situation with Tifa and the kids now feels so empty because Nojima and co went out of their way to show all the low points in their relationship and left all the high points to the viewer’s imagination. I’m sorry, but Cloud is a poor partner in ACC, and him even potentially pining for Aerith adds a whole new layer to the shit cake.

Yes. The man himself says he wants forgiveness from her. He doesn't want to be sad and alone, he's made himself sad and alone because he has understood his contraction of geostigma as a punishment for a failure to save Aerith, Zack, and Denzel. He's not exactly giving up on life, but he is growing desperate for a solution since he's convinced himself he cannot do it himself. So he turns to the person who he figures can help, since she was able to help out with a miracle against Meteor, and because she's the symbol of his failings.

As for the wavering quote, that's really a nothingburger because it's talking about the setup. It's talking about Cloud hesitating while these two women have the hots for him. Then we get the big twist and welp, it's been Tifa since forever. Everything he did was to try and impress Tifa.

If I read your earlier post correctly you have not played the OG yet? Might be the time to do so.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Only thing I’ll add is that while dev comments and VA thoughts are good to know, the work itself stands on its own. If it doesn’t, then the problem is that the work isn’t well made in the first place and that’s the core issue.

Cloud’s wavering only occurs during the part of the game where you, the player, have influence over Cloud’s reactions. All of it vanishes once Cloud regains his sense of self.

ACC is dripping in symbolism, but the issue with symbolism is that symbols are defined by their context and the viewer’s preconceived notions.

 

[redoak77]

Yes. The man himself says he wants forgiveness from her. He doesn't want to be sad and alone, he's made himself sad and alone because he has understood his contraction of geostigma as a punishment for a failure to save Aerith, Zack, and Denzel. He's not exactly giving up on life, but he is growing desperate for a solution since he's convinced himself he cannot do it himself. So he turns to the person who he figures can help, since she was able to help out with a miracle against Meteor, and because she's the symbol of his failings.

As for the wavering quote, that's really a nothingburger because it's talking about the setup. It's talking about Cloud hesitating while these two women have the hots for him. Then we get the big twist and welp, it's been Tifa since forever. Everything he did was to try and impress Tifa.

If I read your earlier post correctly you have not played the OG yet? Might be the time to do so.

Played the OG a few years ago, but I might be due to a new play through.

As per the quote, like all the quotes, I’ve felt like the preponderance of ambiguity has started to make my wheels spin too fast and everything said or written outside the main work HAS to mean something more than it does. Maybe you’re right and it is a nothing burger.

 

[GamerSkull]

Played the OG a few years ago, but I might be due to a new play through.

As per the quote, like all the quotes, I’ve felt like the preponderance of ambiguity has started to make my wheels spin too fast and everything said or written outside the main work HAS to mean something more than it does. Maybe you’re right and it is a nothing burger.

It’s PR talk. They’re mandated not to say certain things because they still want a portion of the fanbase to keep tuning in. If they just came out and said Cloti is canon… then they risk losing merchandise sales for Cloud and Aerith. So they still want it both shipping fandoms invested so that sales are up.

PR talk is also seen in other things as well. The devs are always careful because they don’t want to piss people off. In Square’s case, I think they’ve realized that this might have been a mistake or that they want thing to be conclusively over before some of the oldguard begins retiring… but I guess Part 3 will tell us for sure.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It’s PR talk. They’re mandated not to say certain things because they still want a portion of the fanbase to keep tuning in. If they just came out and said Cloti is canon… then they risk losing merchandise sales for Cloud and Aerith. So they still want it both shipping fandoms invested so that sales are up.

PR talk is also seen in other things as well. The devs are always careful because they don’t want to piss people off. In Square’s case, I think they’ve realized that this might have been a mistake or that they want thing to be conclusively over before some of the oldguard begins retiring… but I guess Part 3 will tell us for sure.

PR Talk and not spoiling the work in question since that subject is woven into the bigger reveals of the story.

Even if I don’t agree with the choice, it’s also why Cloud is depicted the way he is outside of FF7. His true self is a dead giveaway that something is seriously wrong at the beginning of FF7, where you’re supposed to take him at face value. It’s part of the difficulty of talking about a story like FF7 outside of itself. Say the wrong thing, and the plot twists have been spoiled in their entirety.

 

[Eerie]

It’s also an old quote, we all knew about. It’s clearly referring to pre-Aerith death. It’s been recontextualised by Aerith’s resolution in Remake and Rebirth itself: “even if you THINK you have (fallen in love with me), it’s an ILLUSION”.

I cannot stress how much people are ignoring what Aerith truly is saying there: even if the player thinks Cloud has fallen for Aerith, it’s part of the illusion. CA’s theme is an illusion: it’s a pretty one, but Rebirth poses the question “is it really love?” And its answer is that Cloud tells her she’s a friend, and that she even may question her own feelings as we see her first boyfriend trying to save her through worlds.

 

[Shadowfox]

One of the reasons why I don't like the take that Cloud was pining for Aerith and longing to be with her in AC -- especially the way that some Cleriths have been portraying it -- is that it throws a really skeevy light on lot of his decisions and actions pre-movie. Like, why would he live with Tifa if Aerith was the one he wanted? Why did he say stuff like having Tifa with him gave him hope? Why did he adopt a kid with her? Why did they even make him get Tifa pay for his motorcycle?

Simply put, I don't agree that Cloud was pining for Aerith in AC/ACC because that motive coupled with his actions and decisions mean that he'd been taking advantage of Tifa, whom he's known very clearly has feelings for him, for years. It basically turns a good character into a freeloader, a liar, a two-timer.

(In fact, as I recall, after AC first came out in 2004/2005, there were many Cleriths who argued in favour of this depiction of Cloud; even to the point where they'd claim he was treating Tifa that way because, "well, she's the one with the house and money, plus she's sexy, he's only human after all, what else is he supposed to do?")

Anyway, if Cloud was meant to be pining for Aerith, there are surely better ways of showing it to the audience that doesn't involve turning the hero of the story into a complete douchebag.

 

[eleamaya]

About Cloud's wavering, aside from what Kitase said in OG, Nomura add this for Rebirth:

"You really get the sense Cloud's not used to being around women. Tifa and Aerith are both very formidable. Nomura says Aerith is very forthcoming, while Tifa is pretty passionate—Cloud's current skills aren't a match for either of them."

Source: エアリスの運命も含めて盛り上がりは最高潮に！ 発売直前「FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH」開発陣インタビュー 北瀬氏、浜口氏、野村氏が見どころを語る

So yeah, basically it just exists on that timeline till Aerith's death. And I think that's what the wavering is actually means.

 

[Ahkseum]

Most of what Cloud feels for Aerith in is guilt over letting her die, not romantic attraction. If you remove Aerith's death, then you also remove most of the emotional attachment Cloud has towards Aerith. He feels the same guilt about Zack dying. He thinks he can make up for his faliures by saving Denzel, but then he contracts geostigma himself. That's why he runs away from home.

If Cloud was pining for a chance to be with Aerith, then his journey in Advent Children is simply bizarre. He tells Aerith he wants to be forgiven. Aerith tell him that he has nothing to be sorry for, and that he should be the one doing the forgiving. Then Cloud gets his act together, and gives a renewed effort to save the children. By the end of the film, Cloud completely moves on and comes to the understanding that his place with Tifa and the kids. Aerith and Zack see that Cloud is no longer alone, and move on to join the lifestream.

If Cloud was truly pining to be with Aerith why would he stop when Aerith tells him to forgive himself?

 

[aeriths]

I think more people for the remakes specifically need to also look at what is being put in front of them and not picking quotes from things over a decade ago. It’s clear to me a lot of things are being reworked and expanded that are making some previous thoughts (esp in relation to ACC) obsolete. From what is being shown so far in remake/rebirth and its related works Tifa is not the “woman left behind” and Cloud isn’t being set up to endlessly “pine over Aerith”.

Zack is also severely consistently underestimated in his role of Cloud’s guilt and psychological state as well in all of this which truly baffles me.

 

[Xombii]

So according to the newer Novels, and the second part of OG; our boy's been in love with this girl since before his balls dropped, joined the army in active wartime to get strong enough to protect her, fought Sephiroth when he thought she was dying, and even after 5 years of mako induced memory loss and brain fuckery his first coherent thoughts in Midgar are, 'I'm so happy I found Tifa again, I would literally bomb a reactor for this person.'

I'm not sure I can believe he would one day meet some girl on a side street and forget all about that somehow, IDK, nothing in Remake or Rebirth seems to hint at more than them becoming good friends, which is actually a hard thing to do, making friends, it should be like, enough to celebrate by itself. Friends are special, we do not need to want to hump them.

I think people needing to be told 'This is this, and nothing else, and specifically this.' is crazy but at this point there's so much craziness around it might need to be done, and that's partly disappointing, because the OG's sense of mystery and catharsis when the truth is revealed was the best part.

It's crazy how over the years this kind of insecurity has spread and made the community so on edge over this one part of the larger story. These are basic story writing trops, even the 'Tifa is like any woman who has been left behind.' thing. You're supposed to feel bad till the story explains how it was fixed. Maybe they shouldn't rely so much on novels that need localising and are almost impossible to get hold of for context. xD

 

[Eerie]

I'm just stating the obvious, but to be left behind, you have to be with that man first. And when the writer himself says that by the end they're back together where they belong, I will say that the only ones who refuse to hear what he's saying are living in denial.

Edit: Britt has some very good words about the CT relationship: x.com

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm just stating the obvious, but to be left behind, you have to be with that man first. And when the writer himself says that by the end they're back together where they belong, I will say that the only ones who refuse to hear what he's saying are living in denial.

Edit: Britt has some very good words about the CT relationship: x.com

The crazies were trying to do spin doctoring even before that clip dropped and afterwards too.

 

[GamerSkull]

I believe she said that it’s a beautiful relationship despite some parts of it being dysfunctional in a sense. Thing is, real relationships aren’t always hunky dory and relationships with conflict are the ones you root for to have a resolution and are satisfied once they finally do get resolved.