SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Hi All, Dr Frasier Crane, here. Long-time lurker, first-time poster. If it’s of any use, I’ve recorded my history with this topic in the spoiler below.

Spoiler: FFVII - A Story of Love

I played the OG in 2004, following years of absorbing Final Fantasy VII iconography via cultural osmosis, and thoroughly aware of a certain major spoiler. I found myself more interested in the Cloud and Tifa relationship, which then massively paid-off with the Northern Crater breakdown and the Lifestream sequences: two events I was completely unspoiled for.

Like many I was left uncertain of where Cloud’s feelings truly lay following the game’s conclusion. Fortunately, sequels were on the way, but as we all know, they also didn’t do a great job of finally closing the debate. I’ve never really been the fandom type, but the frustration and uncertainty associated with the LTD led me to consuming a bit of fan fiction back in the naughts, in search of closure that canon never gave.

Eventually, I moved on with my life and didn’t give much thought to LTD. I think a post was made on Neogaf (way before the great migration to ResetEra) at some point regarding the incredible essays Squall of SeeD had written on this topic. For the casual observer these essays would have been their first introduction to quotes from the Ultimanias and Novellas and would have been a satisfying conclusion to something we always knew to be true. However, I was aware that other fans continued to disagree with the idea of Cloud and Tifa moving on together and that a ship war continued to rage. As they rage in many fandoms.

For around a decade I continued to live my life in peace, only occasionally sparing a thought for Final Fantasy VII and the only ship I had ever found myself invested in. The Remake was announced in 2015, and I kept tabs on it. But ever since April this year and the release of the Remake my brain chemistry has forever changed. My enjoyment of Cloud and Tifa has not only reactivated, it has grown and deepened. I now find myself lurking the Lifestream forums frequently, I follow fanart on Twitter, I’ve read hundreds of thousands of words of fan fiction on AO3. At this point I would just like to be a normal, unobsessed fan again! And I wonder if this renewed interest is motivated by the uncertainty of the outcome for this relationship; by the fact that there are many passionate fans out there who see things much differently from the way I see them. I don’t engage with any of the more volatile shipwar stuff in the fandom, but, like many, I am aware of it and the many points that have been made. This post is the closest I’ve come so far to actually engaging with other fans on the topic. I think by writing this, I’m looking to release a pressure valve. But as someone who’s been lurking actively on here the past few months, I would just like to pay a few complements to the high quality of moderation here and the depth of thought offered by most posters. Reading posts on the Lifestream is never nearly as stressful as it is reading the many bad faith arguments you find in other spaces online.

With that giant spoiler over and done with, I’ve been wondering if Aerith’s line in her resolution scene has been interrogated from this particular perspective before: Aerith, clearly with some knowledge of future events (or past events from another life in her perspective), knowingly tells Cloud that he can’t fall in love with her. Aerith would not make this statement unless she knew that in a previous life, Cloud did indeed fall in love with her - even if it was during an episode of great mental difficulty and delusion. I don’t see Cloud loving Aerith as a particularly big problem for Cloud loving Tifa, too. It’s clearly communicated in the Remake that Cloud has fleeting access to his true memories and feelings, and I am confident that the truth about Cloud’s feelings for Tifa will come out later.

Nevertheless, this statement from Aerith really is fascinating, and it’s more fascinating that Nojima decided to write it. It’s often been debated, and sometimes handwaived in bad faith by cloti people that Cloud never felt any kind of love for Aerith. This line would surely invalidate these perspectives. Moreover, does anyone else wonder if this line recontextualises Cloud’s character in moments following Aerith’s death? Is he grieving her romantically in Advent Children? Does he feel guilty about moving on with Tifa? Or can we still just read Advent Children Cloud as suffering from survivor’s guilt and depression?

 

[KindOfBlue]

Moreover, does anyone else wonder if this line recontextualises Cloud’s character in moments following Aerith’s death? Is he grieving her romantically in Advent Children? Does he feel guilty about moving on with Tifa? Or can we still just read Advent Children Cloud as suffering from survivor’s guilt and depression?

Welcome! Personally, I don’t think it adds any more context than what we already knew about Cloud.
We know he develops feelings for Aerith, there’s just no way to definitively quantify how much they compare to his feelings for Tifa nor is there really much of an indication that his feelings for both conflict with one another. We see that conflict with Aerith dealing with her feelings for Cloud and Zack, but not so much for Cloud and his feelings for Tifa and Aerith.

That said, it’s definitely possible to interpret Advent Children with those undertones that you mentioned, but since the creators haven’t said as much, that’s one of those things that I consider up to interpretation. I think that conflict would make sense and I wouldn’t be against it if it meant Cloud ultimately chooses to let himself be happy with a life with Tifa (which he already does anyways). It wouldn’t be fair to either of them to pursue a romantic relationship with that burden, and it’s something I’d prefer that Cloud would have dealt with before officially settling down because I think it would reflect poorly on him to be officially with Tifa while still liking Aerith.

He’s definitely happy with Tifa post-OG, as the devs have said themselves, but I don’t think they’ve ever specifically commented on Cloud’s romantic feelings for Aerith in Advent Children though I still consider it possible. It’s interesting to me that some people insist that Aerith needs to move on from Zack and favor Cloud, but are against Cloud moving on from Aerith and being with Tifa (who he liked long before even meeting Aerith anyways).

I’ve come to look at these relationships as parallels to one another. To me, Cloud x Aerith and Cloud x Tifa parallel each other as do Cloud x Aerith and Zack x Aerith. Cloud x Aerith and Zack x Aerith are both relationships that end tragically with one party dying. Meanwhile, Cloud x Aerith and Cloud x Tifa are both relationships with a lot of baggage, but while one of them manages to work through that baggage, the other ends with death.

 

[Eerie]

@Dr Frasier Crane I think that you got obsessed with cloti simply because of the way it got depicted in Remake. My take is that cloti is much much more visible in Remake than what it was in the OG, and there is a LOT of UST (unresolved sexual tension) between the two which is something that makes the fans of a pairing want more - because they want to see it resolved! So to me, it is definitely the way cloti is depicted that has changed, or at least is now visible?

For Aerith's line, we know that SOLDIER!Cloud wavered between the two girls - I also think it's important to point out that it's SOLDIER!Cloud who wavers between the two. This is a reminder of this fact, and also why Aerith tells him that those feelings are an illusion.

As far as ACC goes, I think it shows pretty well that Cloud is a protector. He wants to protect those who are dedar to him - it's not a mistake that we see Tifa in dire need and he has a flashback of Aerith being killed in the same way. It's not about romance, it's about the power to protect everyone whom he cherishes (that includes Zack, Aerith, Tifa, the kids... there's nothing that he doesn't cherish, a big reminder of how different he is from Sephiroth, who, according to Aerith in Remake, doesn't cherish anyone nor fear of losing them and as an interesting move, we see Cloud looking at Tifa after everyone got to react). The happier Cloud is, the more depressed he becomes, as he fears to not be able to protect his loved ones. Him saving Tifa in ACC is huge for him, it proves him that he's wrong and he can do it.

Edit: typo and error

 

[BoxFBall]

@Dr Frasier Crane

I believe it is perfectly possible he had feelings for both of them, there is also logical argument he didn't like either of them. That is why me and @KindOfBlue want some kind of concrete resolution to all of this, one way or another. I prefer Cloti, but have zero issue with Claerith being canon if that is how the developers want to go as long as we have a concrete resolution to it. This is the only game in the series that doesn't have a truly defined love story in it and it isn't fair to Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, or the fans. It's been what 23 years? They need to wrap this shit up.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Welcome! Personally, I don’t think it adds any more context than what we already knew about Cloud.
We know he develops feelings for Aerith, there’s just no way to definitively quantify how much they compare to his feelings for Tifa nor is there really much of an indication that his feelings for both conflict with one another. We see that conflict with Aerith dealing with her feelings for Cloud and Zack, but not so much for Cloud and his feelings for Tifa and Aerith.

That said, it’s definitely possible to interpret Advent Children with those undertones that you mentioned, but since the creators haven’t said as much, that’s one of those things that I consider up to interpretation. I think that conflict would make sense and I wouldn’t be against it if it meant Cloud ultimately chooses to let himself be happy with a life with Tifa (which he already does anyways). It wouldn’t be fair to either of them to pursue a romantic relationship with that burden, and it’s something I’d prefer that Cloud would have dealt with before officially settling down because I think it would reflect poorly on him to be officially with Tifa while still liking Aerith.

He’s definitely happy with Tifa post-OG, as the devs have said themselves, but I don’t think they’ve ever specifically commented on Cloud’s romantic feelings for Aerith in Advent Children though I still consider it possible. It’s interesting to me that some people insist that Aerith needs to move on from Zack and favor Cloud, but are against Cloud moving on from Aerith and being with Tifa (who he liked long before even meeting Aerith anyways).

I’ve come to look at these relationships as parallels to one another. To me, Cloud x Aerith and Cloud x Tifa parallel each other as do Cloud x Aerith and Zack x Aerith. Cloud x Aerith and Zack x Aerith are both relationships that end tragically with one party dying. Meanwhile, Cloud x Aerith and Cloud x Tifa are both relationships with a lot of baggage, but while one of them manages to work through that baggage, the other ends with death.

Many thanks for the welcome and for entertaining my thoughts. To be honest, even if we were to assume that Cloud and Tifa had not become romantically involved in any sense (sharing a bed; going on dates; making some kind of commitment to one another) in the two years between the OG and Advent Children, I would be a little shocked if Cloud did not feel a stronger attachment to Tifa, someone he has known for so much of his life and has shared so much experience with, than someone he knew only for a brief time. So from my perspective, I think Cloud’s love for the two women can be compared, just not in any quantitative way.

What interests me, too, about Aerith’s words is that she says “you can’t fall in love with me”. “In love” implying a depth and maturity to Cloud’s feelings for Aerith. Perhaps the nuance is slightly different in the original Japanese. From my perspective on love and the Clerith relationship, I would think a statement like: “you can’t fall for me” would make a bit more sense considering the brief time the two share, but perhaps I’m just being pendantic. Happy to be corrected on all of the above. It was also very funny to see some streamers (Marz comes to mind) going into Remake without any knowledge of the OG being completely shocked by Aerith’s statement in this scene.

Advent Children frustrates me so much as a story. I watched ACC for the first time back in June, having not seen the original in over ten years, and while the additions were welcome, it is still a very clumsy story. Doesn’t it take 5 times for the movie to actually get going? (Red XIII in the future; the Turks at the Northern Crater; Kadaj and Rufus chatting in the film’s third act; the recap of the original; and then it actually starts.) Keep it simple, Nomura! In order for Cloud’s arc to completely make sense the Case of Tifa stuff should have been a montage in the first act, and we should have seen the ‘good times’, not have been told about it afterwards in interviews. I remember exclaiming multiple times during my watch that Tifa deserves better than what Cloud is giving her, because we never see Cloud at his best in acts 1 and 2. Thank goodness for the additional scenes in ACC where Cloud opens up to Marlene and when he saves Tifa and Denzel. The phone call from Reminiscence should really be an end of credits moment to tie everything together, too. However, anyone who doesn’t interpret Advent Children as a story about Cloud getting his groove back and moving on with his life, letting go of his guilt (and ghosts) is deliberately misunderstanding the story.

I absolutely agree that these relationships are drawn to contrast with each other, and the story would be lesser without these messy webs of love.

@Dr Frasier Crane I think that you got obsessed with cloti simply because of the way it's got depicted in Remake. My take is that cloti is much much more visible in Remake than what it was in the OG, and there is a LOT of UST (unresolved sexual tension) between the two which is something that makes the fans of a pairing want more - because they want to see it resolved! So to me, it is definitely the way cloti is depicted that has changed, or at least is now visible?

For Aerith's line, we know that SOLDIER!Cloud wavered between the two girls - I also think it's important to point out that it's SOLDIER!Cloud who wavers between the two. This is a reminder of this fact, and also why Aerith tells him that those feelings are an illusion.

As far as ACC goes, I think it shows pretty well that Cloud is a protector. He wants to protect those who are dedar to him - it's not a mistake that we see Tifa in dire need and he has a flashbavk of Aerith being killed in the same way. It's not about romance, it's about the power to protect everyone whom he cherishes (that includes Zack, Aerith, Tifa, the kids... there's nothing that he doesn't cherish, a big reminder of how different he is from Sephiroth, who, according to Aerith in Remake, doesn't cherish anyone nor fear of losing them and as an interesting move, we see Cloud looking at Tifa after everyone got to react). The happier Cloud is, the more depressed he becomes, as he fears to not be able to protect his loved ones. Him saving Tifa in ACC is huge for him, it proves him that he's wrong and he can do it.

Absolutely: I don’t think many of us who are well versed in the OG were expecting Cloud and Tifa’s relationship to be given such focus in this early chapter of the FF7 story. That certainly wasn’t the case in original’s Midgar chapter. And the physicality of their relationship too is such a surprise, coming from storytellers like Square Enix. Noctis and Luna barely shared any time on-screen together, but were apparently in love, and here is Cloud and Tifa, our emotionally repressed faves, unable to keep their hands of each other. I can’t help but feel Nojima and Toriyama are realising their full potential as storytellers and are sowing seeds that won’t pay off for potentially years: “Words aren’t the only way to express how you feel.”

Coming back to Aerith’s resolution, it’s also interesting to think of what it means for Cloud and Aerith and their relationship in the sequel. Aerith has reasons, which are less clear to us, for putting a wall between her a Cloud. And she has always a been the active party of the two, the one to deepen their connection. Will she continue to encourage Cloud’s affections; will she keep that distance; or does Remake’s ending portend something else entirely? I wonder if we’re going to get flashbacks of Zack and Aerith, considering the narrative has now pulled him into the centre of the stage.

I agree with your reading of Advent Children, too. It can absolutely be read aromantically too, because it is aromantic, apart from what is implied. I’m familiar with Korean filmmaking but is it common for Japanese filmmaking to treat patriarchs as asexual / aromantic?

@Dr Frasier Crane

I believe it is perfectly possible he had feelings for both of them, there is also logical argument he didn't like either of them. That is why me and @KindOfBlue want some kind of concrete resolution to all of this, one way or another. I prefer Cloti, but have zero issue with Claerith being canon if that is how the developers want to go as long as we have a concrete resolution to it. This is the only game in the series that doesn't have a truly defined love story in it and it isn't fair to Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, or the fans. It's been what 23 years? They need to wrap this shit up.

I just don’t know how the Remake could land at any other outcome than Cloti (and Zerith) at this point. Considering all the time and attention that has been invested into Cloud and Tifa’s relationship, which has been explicitly depicted as being something more than platonic, it would be a cop-out to diminish that with other pairings. While, in contrast, the one-two punch of Aerith’s resolution and her direct reference to Zack at Remake’s conclusion clearly leaves the door open for Aerith to be paired with someone other than Cloud.

Then again, I am slightly worried that the story is foreshadowing Tifa dying this time rather than Aerith.

 

[Eerie]

Ah, I've already said it, but no way Tifa is dying. Only her can help Cloud with his personality problem - she's the one in charge of the intimate plot after all. If she dies, then you take away her role as the heroine of FFVII. Aerith already has another role, the two can't be swapped. It's more about storytelling than anything. If Tifa dies, Aerith still can't help Cloud. Plus, I still think they are overall going the OG way (keeping the skeleton and expanding from there).

 

[BoxFBall]

I've actually entertained the idea that maybe what Aerith said in her resolution scene wasn't about Cloud falling in love with her, and more about her not falling in love with him.

 

[Eerie]

Well, there's a good number of JP people who interpreted this scene as Aerith's one-sided confession, because she said to not fall in love with her but Cloud answered "that's one-sided" There's even a video in JP named "Aerith's one-sided confession" in JP for her resolution. But yes, I tend to think that she built a wall between her and Cloud here.

 

[BoxFBall]

Well, there's a good number of JP people who interpreted this scene as Aerith's one-sided confession, because she said to not fall in love with her but Cloud answered "that's one-sided" There's even a video in JP named "Aerith's one-sided confession" in JP for her resolution. But yes, I tend to think that she built a wall between her and Cloud here.

I kind of agree with the japanese interpretation. Lol

Cloud and Aerith haven't done anything romantic in this game yet to justify her telling him not to fall for her. Seems more like mind games.

 

[KindOfBlue]

That is why me and @KindOfBlue want some kind of concrete resolution to all of this, one way or another.

Pretty much this. I mean, honestly I’m satisfied with what we already know but for the sake of getting the most obnoxious shippers to stop making the fanbase so toxic by attacking people and spreading misinformation, it’d be nice if they made the truth so clear (whatever that truth may be) that anybody who wants to deny it is easily disarmed.

I’ve made comparisons to the shipping war in Naruto in the past, and I imagine the reaction to a definitive ending to the FF7 LTD would be similarly intense (if anybody’s interested, a few years ago somebody gathered HUNDREDS of posts reacting negatively to the reveal of the couples at the end of Naruto

https://imgur.com/a/XKwJ4

and surely it’s not hard to imagine reactions like this in the FF7 fanbase, and yes, I unironically read through this for laughs when I’m feeling blue sometimes ).

Because the couples in Naruto are so clear, it takes the ammo away from people who want to argue otherwise and the people who still deny it look even more silly and are forced to stay in their corners. Naruto liked one girl for the whole series and ended with another, it’s clear and straight to the point.

I guess I want something clear because my interpretation of the story already allows for both ships to exist, just with very different directions. I mean, sure, Aerith can die and Cloud could end up with Tifa. Does that mean Cloud and Aerith liking each other never happened? And do those feelings make Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for each other any less strong?

To use another example, did Peter Parker never love Gwen Stacy just because she died and he ends up with Mary Jane Watson? In real life, does a person who loses a spouse and later remarries need to love one more than the other?

I do believe that it’s healthy for people in a relationship to not still be harboring romantic feelings for past flames, but I also believe adding death to the mix does shift the dynamic in a way that a simple breakup doesn’t. Romance is a lot more complicated than some of these people realize and that’s why for their sake, it’d be nice to have a resolution so clear that they can’t ignore it anymore.

Me? I’m good with what we got really, because I believe what we actually got is INFINITELY more interesting than the Disney movie that some people want FF7 to be.

I would be a little shocked if Cloud did not feel a stronger attachment to Tifa, someone he has known for so much of his life and has shared so much experience with, than someone he knew only for a brief time.

See, using real world logic, that makes sense but I tend to just go by whatever the creators explain. Whatever they leave up to interpretation, so do I, and whatever they state as a fact, I accept it as such.

I could tell you I definitely don’t like the idea of Cloud pining for a dead girl for the rest of his life, and I don’t even think neither he nor Aerith would want that either, for that matter. He was happy with Tifa, and Aerith doesn’t strike me as that type of person who’d want Cloud unhappy forever. “Gotta look forward”, right?

It was also very funny to see some streamers (Marz comes to mind) going into Remake without any knowledge of the OG being completely shocked by Aerith’s statement in this scene.

Yeah, it’s a shame Marz didn’t get the Tifa scene because she definitely likes her more and seems to have a pretty good grasp of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship especially for being a new fan, but pretty solid playthrough overall.

I've actually entertained the idea that maybe what Aerith said in her resolution scene wasn't about Cloud falling in love with her, and more about her not falling in love with him.

Well, there's a good number of JP people who interpreted this scene as Aerith's one-sided confession, because she said to not fall in love with her but Cloud answered "that's one-sided"

I dunno if I quite buy that since Cloud’s response at least implies that he is developing feelings for her, but my takeaway from that scene was that it’s a callback to the OG Gold Saucer date where she talks about wanting to meet the real Cloud.

Assuming that she’s aware of Cloud’s mental state, it makes sense to me that she’d want Cloud to know there’s a very important part of his real self that he’s missing, and those lost memories just so happen to be directly connected to his feelings for Tifa.

Cloud and Aerith haven't done anything romantic in this game yet to justify her telling him not to fall for her. Seems more like mind games.

I believe that’s what Nojima meant when he talked of Aerith seeming like she’s looking down on Cloud. But knowing that she dies before Cloud gets his true self back is ultimately what I think gives weight to that line, especially “even if you think you have, it’s not real”.

I wish more people discussed that part of the line which I find more interesting than the “you can’t fall in love with me” part, but people seem more distracted by the use of the L-word. Though, I’ve got my popcorn ready if the K-word ever comes up again.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I dunno if I quite buy that since Cloud’s response at least implies that he is developing feelings for her, but my takeaway from that scene was that it’s a callback to the OG Gold Saucer date where she talks about wanting to meet the real Cloud.

Assuming that she’s aware of Cloud’s mental state, it makes sense to me that she’d want Cloud to know there’s a very important part of his real self that he’s missing, and those lost memories are directly connected to his feelings for Tifa.

Yeah, I don't buy it either. Not in the slightest.

We know (and she apparently knows) how Cloud felt about her in the original game. That's still applicable here.

 

[looneymoon]

Advent Children is a progression of FF7 in the same way Naruto is with Boruto, so I think it's already been made pretty clear tbh. The Compilation materials lean a lot heavier on the shounen tropes than the OG.

 

[BoxFBall]

Yeah, I don't buy it either. Not in the slightest.

We know (and she apparently knows) how Cloud felt about her in the original game. That's still applicable here.

I don't know, Cloud's response kind of looked like 'wtf?!' because at the point they are at what she said is quite presumptuous.

 

[eleamaya]

Naruto liked one girl for the whole series and ended with another, it’s clear and straight to the point.

The Compilation materials lean a lot heavier on the shounen tropes than the OG.

This is clear because Sakura would never return his feeling so Naruto moved on and slowly return Hinata's feeling. So, it's not about Naruto liking two girls at the same time, he actually doesn't hold the crush for Sakura for the whole series, at some point he already ended it but not their amazing friendship. Shipping in Naruto isn't complicated but I get that shipping Sasuke x Sakura is frustrating, no wonder people doubt if they would endgame. Naruto has a message that the hero doesn't have to end up with his first love, she always loves someone else so his feeling is very onesided. It doesn't apply to FF7 at all.

And speaking of shounen trope.... I mean the romantic one...
If there's a fandom similar with FF7 more than Naruto, it's Bleach. And the shipwar is indeed more intense than Naruto fandom.

Actually, shipping in Bleach is even clearer than Naruto because Ichigo always has one love interest and it's the childhood friend he's always protective of, his first love. Even if Rukia came into his life in the middle, he didn't sway like Cloud because he and Rukia never have a romantic vibe. The author has stated their relationship is more than a friend, less than lovers; long before the series is ended. It's slightly different from FF7 who has a statement Cloud and Aerith are more than friends, for she has loved him. But shippers of this pairing believe they're lovers, especially since the Clerith cult leader also a die-hard stan of Ichigo x Rukia pairing, I can see why. Half series feature Orihime and Tifa, the hero's first love and childhood friend, as his heroine more than Rukia (ended in Soul Society Arc) and Aerith (ended in Forgotten Capital). They are also viewed as an useless and annoying heroine who only has boobs lol. Rukia and Aerith also still come to heal Ichigo and Cloud, though, and it's the role which Orihime and Tifa cant do... because Ichigo owes Rukia so much for having his power, and Cloud felt guilty about Aerith's death. And it can be viewed as romantic as you want.

Meanwhile, Rukia also has a love interest and they have a complicated relationship they need to resolve for hundred years, Renji. I would parallel them with Zack and Aerith.... both are dead . Let one rest together in Soul Society and let another in human world.

To use another example, did Peter Parker never love Gwen Stacy just because she died and he ends up with Mary Jane Watson?

Since Marvel has so many versions, idk which one is accurate. But as far as I know, Mary Jane is Peter's girl next door or childhood friend he crushed on but in the middle, he has a relationship with Gwen till her death indirectly caused by him before he's endgame with Mary Jane. I agree it's similar to Tifa x Cloud x Aerith's dynamic.

There's even a video in JP named "Aerith's one-sided confession" in JP for her resolution.

I think this isn't different from her statement in Case of Lifestream White. Her "koibito" line is also very one-sided. And Nojima is consistent. I'm sure JP fans don't debate it into 4 translation languages.

 

[Cat on Mars]

If there's something shippers tend to forget about all this is that characters aren't reliable narrators in FF7. Cloud memory and feelings are a mess from the start. Tifa doesn't know many things and slowly realizes some things don't add up but she doesn't know exactly what happened. Aerith doesn't tell us what she knows or not because she's more mysterious that way.

Trying to read more in some statements is not understanding that characters usually express their POV. Said POV can or can not be aligned with the facts in the main story, for many different reasons. Characters can understand the events of the story just like players do, and they can misunderstand them as well.

Tl; dr: Aerith is not stating a fact, just expressing her opinion on the matter, and it's more a wish/want than anything. That's why it's "one-sided": no matter Cloud's feelings, she wants that he doesn't fall in love with her in any form. She's rejecting him.

 

[KindOfBlue]

It doesn't apply to FF7 at all.

I didn’t compare them to draw parallels character-wise, just comparing the intensity of both shipping wars but I get what you’re saying

Since Marvel has so many versions, idk which one is accurate. But as far as I know, Mary Jane is Peter's girl next door or childhood friend he crushed on but in the middle, he has a relationship with Gwen till her death indirectly caused by him before he's endgame with Mary Jane.

Yeah, in the main comics universe Peter and MJ don’t meet until he gets set up on a blind date with her by his aunt during his college years and they didn’t actually grow up together, but you pretty much got what I was saying with Gwen’s death and moving on to a life with MJ.

What’s interesting is Gwen’s death serves as a defining moment in Peter’s life, yet his previous romantic feelings for her don’t prevent him from finding love again with MJ (and many other women lol but mainly her). I guess that’s why Cloud settling down with Tifa (not settling for her, settling with her) and moving on from the romantic feelings for Aerith but still valuing her as a good friend post-death doesn’t sound so crazy to me, even more so when you remember Cloud and Tifa have liked each other long before either of them met Aerith.

I doubt Square would do this, but all they’d have to do is come out and say “Though Cloud and Tifa confirmed their longtime desire for one another, he still harbors unresolved romantic feelings for Aerith for a while after her death and wavers between those feelings and the feelings of wanting to start a new life with Tifa. After overcoming his guilt, Cloud is able to move on from those feelings and fully embrace a romantic relationship with Tifa.” I feel like a description like that would take away a lot of room for uncertainty and though it ultimately ends with Tifa, it at least gives Aerith some content as well.

Though, something tells me that would make shippers argue even more but at least it’s a clear resolution...maybe?

 

[eleamaya]

Gwen's and Aerith's death are caused by enemy's murder when the hero is involved and fails to protect her. Ofc it has more impact on the hero's life and even if we all want him to move on, it's not as easy as someone who lost a love interest by an accident like a plane crash or death by cancer. There's one shounen manga who is also similar I'd like to share.... speaking of shounen.

Do you guys ever hear of Rurouni Kenshin?

In the whole series, we only know Kenshin Himura is a lonesome samurai who is staying in Kaoru Kamiya's dojo after wandering for 10 years, we see she's set as his love interest. Only in the last arc of the manga, we find out his past that leaves a big burden marked on his X-shaped scar on his left cheek. It's not the biggest arc of the manga, but more like a closing arc similar to Advent Children because Kenshin already has a peaceful life with Kaoru throughout the series but something triggers him and he started to see a vision of someone.

....A woman he loved whom he accidentally killed when he's about to save from enemy.

In Bakufu era--13 years before the main story starts, Kenshin was a samurai who worked for the pro-Restoration side, under Kogoro Katsura (a real-life person). He's paid for missions and had murdered many opponents in those missions. No one could ever slice his skin but one man managed to mark a scar on his face although Kenshin killed him. Not long after that, one day, he met a mysterious woman, Tomoe Yukishiro. She followed him although it annoys him and he felt awkward about it. Katsura then give her a job in his place but political situation then turned against him and he must hide from the enemy who wants to murder him, he ordered Kenshin and Tomoe to disguise themselves as fake husband and wife to hide too. Kenshin's feeling towards her grew here. But what about Tomoe?

One night, after a year living together, Tomoe confessed that she had a man she loved who never return from his last duty guarding his boss after making a promise to marry her when he's home. He is murdered in the middle of a conflict between pro-Shogun vs pro restoration. I feel this scene like Gold Saucer date, because after the times she had spent with the hero, she actually still hadn't moved on from her first love completely. Though, Kenshin consoled her here and promise to give the happiness robbed from her; then they had sex for the first time. And similar to the dream scene when Aerith left a message to handle Sephiroth not long after moving on, Tomoe also left Kenshin to face the enemy from pro-Bakufu when he's sleeping in order to protect him. In the scene when she left home, she stated that Kenshin is the second man she has loved. It gives me a similar vibe to Aerith's statement in Case of Lifestream. Though, I prefer how Kenshin's author states 'the second love'.

Ofc Kenshin pursued her. When he almost collapsed after beating so many samurais, Tomoe fleed from hostage to be his shield but his sword accidentally slashed her, her knife added a scar on his face become X-shaped. He grieved.

Is it over? No.

After holding a funeral, he read her diary she always forbid him to touch. And he found out the horrible truth after reading the name of Tomoe's fiancee, Akira Kiyosato. That was the man who marked the first scar on his face, he then remembered the man's last word before being killed by him is her name. As the reason why Tomoe came to love Kenshin, readers know it is because she came to understand his political view and his wish to protect people in the new era more than those whom he had to kill. It's a war between Pro-Bakufu vs Pro-Meiji, and it's a tragedy that her fiancee and Kenshin were in the opposite party, she cant fully blame Kenshin and finally let go of Kiyosato's death. But did Kenshin ever know? To him, it's his fault he murdered Tomoe's fiancee that draw her attention to follow him. He blames himself being the one who robbed her happiness. And It's his fault that Tomoe also met her death in his hand. His guilt is complex, not just a grief for losing someone he loves.

To me, Tomoe's motivation is similar to Aerith, following the next guy for a motive of finding out the truth about their first love's death. And for all of their moment spending time together, both women just completely moved on not long before the story definitely kill her.... that's her tragedy. And even if Cloud and Kenshin developed a feeling towards her, they're clueless enough if she loved him too since their relationship is established as a fake one (or in Cloud's case, it's when he wasn't being himself). Tomoe may write about her feeling towards Kenshin on the last page before she left but Kenshin seemed to not continue to read the diary after finding out about her fiancee's name. The burden of two deaths are carried over by Cloud and Kenshin. I know the weight of Cloud's guilt towards Zack is different because they're also bestfriend. But I wonder if the fact that Zack and Aerith being lovers also impacts him as heavy as Kenshin did since he must know it. I hope SE show this in the next installment of the remake. And another interesting thing in Rurouni Kenshin is Tomoe has a vision of Kiyosato and leads to her decision to not let the second man she loves die like her first one... but I'm not sure if Aerith also felt that way too offscreen before she left Cloud in Gongaga. Yeah, Gongaga, Zack's hometown.

At the end of the manga, Kenshin has a son with Kaoru as he learns to love again. And she notices the X-scar on his cheek is now faded; showing a blatant sign that Kenshin has felt free from the two deaths, forgiving himself. Kaoru may be Kenshin's new love he met 12 years after the first one die... unlike Peter and Cloud, but still, it's a man moving on. Heck, even Kenshin needs 12 years.... so, how dare Clerith shippers want Cloud to pine over Aerith's death for the rest of his life?

 

[Eerie]

Let's not bring Bleach into the mix please. I have deep knowledge of what happened, and the reality of it is to never take it as an example because it's FUCKED up. I have rants concerning it that are non-shippy at all and nothing, absolutely NOTHING makes sense because I KNOW the creator changed his mind when Orihime was attacked on Amazon. So to me Bleach is NOT about a story well built with a strong narrative because when you change your mind towards the end of a manga, of course nothing makes sense. So it makes me really mad when I see Bleach taken as an example because if anything, Bleach should be taken as an example of what to NEVER do as a writer, and I'm just so glad that the dev team of FFVIIR is showing such love towards their work because Bleach and Kubo really broke my trust in writers in a deep way that's still there.

As for what JP fans say about Aerith's resolution, it's hard to explain? Maybe I could bring @odekopeko to explain it, but even she had a hard time to explain it to me. It's because of the word that Cloud uses to answer to Aerith that gives that impression. It sounds like a rejection - albeit I'm not sure it's the intended meaning by Nojima and not a side effect. So that's why there are fans who take it as Aerith's confession that is one-sided. Albeit I sure think that it's way too early to speak about romance between the two anyway, so that's weird.

Edit: found the tweet that talked about this, as well as the video aforementioned.

 

[eleamaya]

@Eerie Bleach has bad writing, I understand that, really. That''s why I had dropped the manga ever since Vizard arc despite my ship keep sailing and I celebrate it when it's ended lol. But still, story is the most important thing, always. The whole story between Bleach and FF7 is incomparable or let's say the latest bad arcs in Bleach is like FF7 without Nojima's involvement, Dirge of Cerberus. But from the shipping content, it still has a good comparison and similar JP trope, I can explain how strong Ichihime is since volume one without latest bad arc and it's relatable to Cloti. I still love romance in Bleach between Ichihime better than Naruto's drama although I objectively give Naruto better score for whole story and satisfied ending. FYI, I even dropped Naruto too not long after timeskip. Only One Piece that the story keeps me hooked. But I cant bring any romantic content from One Piece for shounen romantic trope comparison till we get the definite canon pairing since it's still ongoing.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As for what JP fans say about Aerith's resolution, it's hard to explain? Maybe I could bring @odekopeko to explain it, but even she had a hard time to explain it to me. It's because of the word that Cloud uses to answer to Aerith that gives that impression. It sounds like a rejection - albeit I'm not sure it's the intended meaning by Nojima and not a side effect. So that's why there are fans who take it as Aerith's confession that is one-sided. Albeit I sure think that it's way too early to speak about romance between the two anyway, so that's weird.

Edit: found the tweet that talked about this, as well as the video aforementioned.

That interpretation (being generous with my wording there) is ship-fueled wishful thinking. The one-sidedness in question is one-sided in the sense of "unilateral" -- i.e. an action or decision being made without the participation of all parties involved.

"One-sided" > "unilateral" > "Do I get a say in all this?"

And even without that clarification, just look at the scene. The woman has just been kidnapped and Cloud is worried about her. He intends to go to his possible, even likely, death to save her from torture and misery. He's not randomly being a dick to her in this scene, for crying out loud.

How can anyone in good faith read "Speak for yourself, bitch" from this? =\

I swear, the lengths shipping goes to distort everything Cloud says or does in this franchise into the most vile bunk directed at these two women never stops being disgusting.

 

[Eerie]

@eleamaya: nah, trust me, Bleach and FFVII(R) are vastly different on tropes used. Ichigo and Orihime weren't even childhood friends, they just met once. There was absolutely nothing and it's telling how Ichigo waited that Rukia got married to ask Orihime out. It's really bad, in every point of view. When you have Ichigo wondering if he can keep going on when Rukia isn't here to have him end with Orihime, you see the disconnect that has gone live between the two moments, and when Kubo changed his mind.

@The Twilight Mexican: I understand perfectly what you're saying, trust me LOL - I did not have that reading at all, still don't. I just say that's how some JP fans felt when they saw Aerith's resolution. As I was saying it's probably more a side effect of how Cloud answers.

 

[KindOfBlue]

It sounds like a rejection - albeit I'm not sure it's the intended meaning by Nojima and not a side effect. So that's why there are fans who take it as Aerith's confession that is one-sided.

Yeah, I dunno how it could be taken as a one-sided confession on her end because neither of them actually “confessed” anything and she was pretty directly talking about Cloud’s feelings

 

[Mayora97]

@eleamaya: nah, trust me, Bleach and FFVII(R) are vastly different on tropes used. Ichigo and Orihime weren't even childhood friends, they just met once. There was absolutely nothing and it's telling how Ichigo waited that Rukia got married to ask Orihime out. It's really bad, in every point of view. When you have Ichigo wondering if he can keep going on when Rukia isn't here to have him end with Orihime, you see the disconnect that has gone live between the two moments, and when Kubo changed his mind.

@The Twilight Mexican: I understand perfectly what you're saying, trust me LOL - I did not have that reading at all, still don't. I just say that's how some JP fans felt when they saw Aerith's resolution. As I was saying it's probably more a side effect of how Cloud answers.

Apologies if I shouldn't be keeping this discussion going here, but I don't think your take on Bleach is entirely accurate or fair, and I think it goes entirely too far to say "there was absolutely nothing" or that it was bad "in every point of view". Say what you will about Bleach's writing in general, and I think there's a lot to be said, but regarding the main pairing, Kubo has stated that he was able to write the final chapter he had in mind since chapter 1, a statement that is heavily supported by both the manga and the original one shot. In the latter it was entirely obvious that Ichigo and Orihime had feelings for each other, and while several things changed from the one shot to the story we have now, it should at the very least serve to show that Kubo DID consider the pairing even back then, even before the story was published. Add to this the fact that Orihime was shown to have a crush on Ichigo from as early as chapter 2, her introduction far as I recall, and that Ichigo is particularly protective of and gentle to her specifically when compared to his interactions with others, and it shouldn't come as a surprise that they ended up together.

Moreover, while the term childhood friends isn't accurate, "they just met once" is overly reductive. Ichigo knows her from the start of the manga, is close to Orihime's best friend and by then is already regularly fussing over her injuries, shown by his angrily commenting on their frequency and offering to walk her home shortly after. That, coupled with Orihime's already existing fondness for him at that point certainly implies that there is already some level of care present for each other at that stage, even if they're yet to grow very close to the other (which the main story certainly rectifies).

Add to this the fact that the only person who is explicitly shown having romantic feelings for Ichigo throughout the story is Orihime and that this becomes the major focus of at least one arc, and that the final arc, spanning over 200 chapters, hardly has Ichigo and Rukia interact while both the Rukia/Renji and Ichigo/Orihime pairings spend a lot of time together and have some very blatant ship tease...it's just, why do people insist on claiming that Kubo changed his mind when the signs were all there? Apologies if this sounds rude, but perhaps one ought to give the author the benefit of the doubt when he claims the ending was the one he envisioned from the start, especially when this IS supported by the text, rather than assume the opposite because of feelings of disappointment? I just think that, if one rereads the manga knowing how it all ends, it should seem obvious in hindsight or at the very least plausible.

The anime certainly worsened things by cutting out multiple moments between Orihime and Ichigo, and adding tons of Rukia-centric filler, and I do think that has contributed to people feeling confused and left out when the final chapter dropped. Rukia's and Ichigo's dynamic being central to the story is another matter that has caused people to go all on in on that ship, but much like with Bulma/Goku, this doesn't mean they should be together romantically, that's not what their relationship was ever about, even if it drove the story for a while.

Regarding the novel and the Rukia/Renji marriage, that once again feels like a rather uncharitable reading. By then Orihime was already clearly a familiar presence in the Kurosaki home, as evidenced by Yuzu and Karin commenting on how much they liked having her around and are happy when she stays for dinner. Moreover, Renji specifically calls out Ichigo by asking him if he was in love with her, and upon seeing Ichigo failing to properly answer tells him not to keep her waiting too long, to which Ichigo replies that he understands that, but that he shouldn't be hearing this from Renji, who only managed to confess to Rukia after several decades. What we can glean from this is that Ichigo, while embarassed and unsure how to approach the situation, does in fact have feelings for Orihime, and that it's simply his lack of experience that's causing his failure to act (mirrored by Renji doing the same, and we certainly don't doubt that Renji's been in love with Rukia for a long time now, do we?), rather than any non-existing unresolved feelings for Rukia. It has only been 3 years since the end of the final battle after all, both Ichigo and Orihime are young, inexperienced and busy with college/work, so it hardly comes as a surprise thst their relationship doesn't immediately take off. Even so, the novel ends with Ichigo mustering his courage and asking Orihime to make time for him later, with the implication that this is when he confesses to her. And I think it's rather awful to suggest that he specifically chose to wait until after Rukia was married, as if he held onto some hope until then, and I certainly don't think that was Kubo's intention. ...or, actually, the novel's writer, who was someone else (though I do believe they received supervision from Kubo, and he DID illustrate it.

Anyhow, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Ichigo/Orihime is a perfectly written romance or that anything else is not, but rather simply that the evidence for it was already there before it became canon, and I find it rather unfair to act otherwise or as if it was all meaningless, especially when the author himself has chimed in on it saying that it absolutely was intended from the start. I certainly think there's a difference between liking one pairing more than another and denying the other's very basis and validity.

...once again, sorry for the distraction. I tend to lurk on these forums every now and then, but never really commented because you all were doing fantastic and were much better informed than me, but since this hasn't gotten any replies, and I feel I am at least somewhat qualified, I decided to try my luck.

Since I'm already here though, I'll add that I agree with the sentiment that it would be nice if we could finally resolve this specific love triangle. I can't say I wouldn't be at least slightly disappointed if the answer turned out to be Clerith, but still, this is the perfect time to be giving a conclusive answer (until the debates of Remake vs Og canon start). I'm already frustrated enough by Steins;Gate's developers for refusing to resolve its much more blatantly obvious main pairing and keeping them in an eternal hell of being tsundere to each other, for literal years, so it would be nice if at least one of these headaches could be cleared up.

 

[Eerie]

I don't want to talk about Bleach, but if you want to know, I was once in charge of the largest IchiRuki FC ever created, and because of this position, I happen to have made friends (the only thing I can thank Bleach for), and one in particular who was friend with a friend of Kubo. Short answer, I know that IR should have ended canon, whether you believe me or not I don't care because it went down the drain and I've no proof anyway except I can point out when it went down, in the manga. And I will say it again but there is nothing from Ichigo to Orihime, the happiest moment in his life is not when he marries her or when his kid is born - which I expected - but when he sees Rukia again, it's pretty pathetic. That is my last word about it, trust me, trust me not, let's not bring it here again please. I will not answer anything else because again, Kubo broke my trust in writers.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

After the first Arc when the team went to save Ruika, I knew Orihime and Ichigo would end up together same with Naruto, after the we got the time skip it was clear who would end up with who lol