SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
A couple years being part of this fanbase and I still don’t quite get the train of thought on that particular point in the LTD.

For those who insist that word suggests a mutual romantic relationship, haven’t both girls been described in such a manner? To then try to say it exclusively solidifies Cloud and Aerith as the only legitimate couple, you’d have to ignore the many official statements made regarding Cloud and Tifa’s relationship…which would be silly and frankly dishonest.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Even if some people insisted Clerith is canon because of their feelings (not relationship), an author doesnt write a story with a couple separated in death---but with the guy now lives with the girl he had loved since childhood who also love him and they adopt child together, and the girl is in afterlife with the first love she had waited to home for 5 years that his dying thought is also her waiting for him---as the only canon couple while the other two couples aren't... unless the writer portray the two characters of the only canon as jerk and selfish.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yes, it really is a weird take on both Cloud and Aerith.

I really look at the history of the LTD with curiosity nowadays, because to me the story is very straightforward (if you truly think about it, before he made up his fake persona, Cloud doesn't remember a state where he's not in love or at least crushing hard on her; how can people claim she's second best is beyond me). And I think this was the most interesting to me:


In this rare interview of Masato Katō, we do see him talking about how they worked on FFVII; they first talked about the story all together thoroughly, then would get assigned subevents. And, I noticed: Mideel, Lifestream scene, Highwind scene, the ones he took care of were all the major cloti events. But, I'll get back to this.

When FFVII was launched, it was a one time game, no Compilation needed, etc. Back then, the developpers clearly didn't think much of the love triangle - to them it was a tool, and whatever fans wanted to believe, be it! They were also young, trying out new stuff - those were exciting times for them. But because they were young and inexperimented, they made errors in their storytelling and the message was definitely misunderstood by the fans - how many tried to revive Aerith when the message was that we have to live on with the dead in our hearts?

What was done was done, and Nomura was a little flippant when he answered interviews because he truly didn't care about who Cloud loved.

But, because there is always a but, the Compilation began as they worked on BC and AC. They still made storytelling errors that they didn't notice, but this time, women told Nomura they pitied Tifa; and he did not understand, because to him, Cloud and Tifa had a good relationship. However, they absolutely and spectacularly failed to convey this in AC, and the feedback they had made them scramble back to the story: what went wrong? I sometimes do wonder though if them wanting to cater to both CAs and CTs back then made them have such a way to tell the story in which, if fans wanted to, they could pretend Cloud was in love with Aerith. So many cloti fans got out of the movie thinking that they weren't a couple yet that it was a major drawback for years in fandom (you really don't want to read fics from that era lol, so depressing it made me stop reading CT fics altogether), and I can't say that we weren't looking for clues there - because most fans before AC thought that Cloud was in love with Aerith, so it definitely tainted how that movie was interpreted. The ending especially with Aerith looking over Cloud was so bad in showing their intent that SE had to take it off in ACC.

There was definitely wrongness in how they portrayed and made their characters look to the public. There was a lot of unawareness from them in how the fans would understand what was shown, and I think it shows in AC - I absolutely despised Cloud there. AC had cool graphics but pretty terrible story. The dialogues were, in all honesty, kept to a bare minimum, which made Cloud's motivation hard to understand - and he was the main character! So, when women complained to Nomura, it was because there was a real reason to not understand this story and those characters. And I think that it made the devs understand that they had failed to convey a big part of their story - in fine, this is why ACC does exist, and why we can see more clearly their intent there. It made them realise that the way they presented their characters was important to convey their story (look at Aerith in OG; look at what she became in Remake, they nearly entirely redid her character, accentuating her feelings for Zack to the max).

Then we got On the way to a smile novellas which helped understand the context, but as Nojima was trying for the first time to write, there were still errors in how everything was handled, which led to serious fights in the LTD. By that time though, I knew that Cloud and Tifa were definitely a couple, as I felt during the OG. Then came CC, ACC, the novellas revised and now Remake, which, I think, truly shines in its characterisation; this is the best the characters have ever been, because finally SE cares about how the characters present themselves to people. They're not only tools for a story, but also make the story and they want everyone to love them.

I think the main problem that existed is that the characters were tools, just like the LT was; convenient tools that helped conveying a message. As I noted way earlier in this message (:D) Masato Katō was the one who designed ALL the major CT interactions; which means that the man who understood best Cloud and Tifa, their interactions, was also the one who left and never talked about it. Which led to devs never really commenting on them while it's probably one of the best love stories SE has pulled from 7 and on (sorry I do not know about earlier Final Fantasy games). Which did lead a lot of people to believe that Cloud loved Aerith, when it was not the story. SE finally cares about people understanding their message, so you can clearly see that all the differences between the OG and Remake are made to explain things better (minus chapter 18 lol). And that includes the LT, because there has always been an answer to it, which has always been the Lifestream scene; as I said, true!Cloud never knew a state where he wasn't in love with Tifa, and that's what the Lifestream scene also tells.

But it took MORE THAN A DECADE for fans to begin to understand this, and it's a long time that taints fandom a lot. By then it's natural that people won't want to let go of what they thought happened, they are too invested, and that leads to the current LTD debacle (it should be dead).
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Even if some people insisted Clerith is canon because of their feelings (not relationship), an author doesnt write a story with a couple separated in death---but with the guy now lives with the girl he had loved since childhood who also love him and they adopt child together, and the girl is in afterlife with the first love she had waited to home for 5 years that his dying thought is also her waiting for him---as the only canon couple while the other two couples aren't... unless the writer portray the two characters of the only canon as jerk and selfish.
I mean I guess it could work as a star-crossed lovers story if Cloud and Aerith totally moved on from Tifa and Zack respectively but that’s very much not what happens at least in Cloud’s case…as for Aerith, I hope the remake really clarifies how she feels about Zack after meeting Cloud because she doesn’t seem to dwell on him much in the OG

how many tried to revive Aerith when the message was that we have to live on with the dead in our hearts?
Ugh, the amount of times I’d seen people wanting her to survive the remake just to be with Cloud lol

I’m willing to concede that Cloud and Aerith could’ve had a future together if the circumstances worked in their favor but like…they don’t, that’s the whole point

Then came CC, ACC, the novellas revised and now Remake,
Cloud & Tifa’s relationship has all the post-launch patch updates of a modern AAA game lmao
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
A couple years being part of this fanbase and I still don’t quite get the train of thought on that particular point in the LTD.

For those who insist that word suggests a mutual romantic relationship, haven’t both girls been described in such a manner? To then try to say it exclusively solidifies Cloud and Aerith as the only legitimate couple, you’d have to ignore the many official statements made regarding Cloud and Tifa’s relationship…which would be silly and frankly dishonest.
I agree with you on how the word is used. I thought it's used the same way in EN. I don't know why people think Japanese people use it any differently. I jokingly call Jihoon from Treasure my "boyfriend" on Weverse app, but he doesn't respond to me and I know we'll never date in RL sobs

I don't think they were both described as Cloud's koibito though. The director is the one who described Tifa as being someone's koibito, and the scenario writer only wrote Aerith making her one-sided confession in the afterlife to Cloud that she viewed him as a koibito. All that was made clear to me is that Aerith's feelings for Cloud were definitely not platonic. She loved him as a woman loved a man. However, that's not anyone describing her as someone's koibito. Not at all the same thing.

The only issue I have now is that some people are connecting this to Mr. Toriyama and others calling the rooftop scenes a "date" with Aerith in the interviews, and claiming that this proves Cloud and Aerith are dating/in a relationship... They're now making the argument that when she said she saw him as her koibito in the novel, it's proof that Cloud and Aerith are dating, because see? They called it a "date"?

I really hope it's just ignorant people not understanding how casual the word is used.

The events in the game, the Ultimania quotes I've seen here and on twitter, they show me the devs know Cloud and Tifa are written to be together romantically but Nomura refused to name drop Cloud when it comes to Tifa. We all know it's him because now Nojima has made it clear in his novel that there was never anyone else but him in Tifa's heart. As for Aerith, she clearly loves Cloud romantically but his feelings for her were purposefully left ambiguous. I have yet to be shown any interview or any dialogue where he tells her that he feels the same way. If you find it, let me know. That's the stuff people can dream and let their imagination go wild about. Doesn't make it real though.

But it took MORE THAN A DECADE for fans to begin to understand this, and it's a long time that taints fandom a lot. By then it's natural that people won't want to let go of what they thought happened, they are too invested, and that leads to the current LTD debacle (it should be dead).

LTD thing is already dead to me after completing og. Like I've talked to you about, compilation are like pieces of the puzzle being put together to create a picture. Remake trilogy might not end as the better game for most people who loved the og, but they definitely improved on so many things. Things make more sense now in relation to characterization.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I agree with you on how the word is used. I thought it's used the same way in EN. I don't know why people think Japanese people use it any differently. I jokingly call Jihoon from Treasure my "boyfriend" on Weverse app, but he doesn't respond to me and I know we'll never date in RL sobs

I don't think they were both described as Cloud's koibito though. The director is the one who described Tifa as being someone's koibito, and the scenario writer only wrote Aerith making her one-sided confession in the afterlife to Cloud that she viewed him as a koibito. All that was made clear to me is that Aerith's feelings for Cloud were definitely not platonic. She loved him as a woman loved a man. However, that's not anyone describing her as someone's koibito. Not at all the same thing.

No, THE WOMAN made a one sided confession in the afterlife. We can't be sure who the woman is[/sarcasm]

Sorry, it just bugs me that we act like it's not just as obvious who Tifa is a lover to as it is who the man and woman in COL are.

The only issue I have now is that some people are connecting this to Mr. Toriyama and others calling the rooftop scenes a "date" with Aerith in the interviews, and claiming that this proves Cloud and Aerith are dating/in a relationship... They're now making the argument that when she said she saw him as her koibito in the novel, it's proof that Cloud and Aerith are dating, because see? They called it a "date"?

To Aerith it might be a 'date,' to Cloud it was 'huh, what? Sorry, trying to get back to Ti- I mean Avalanche.'

I really hope it's just ignorant people not understanding how casual the word is used.

The events in the game, the Ultimania quotes I've seen here and on twitter, they show me the devs know Cloud and Tifa are written to be together romantically but Nomura refused to name drop Cloud when it comes to Tifa. We all know it's him because now Nojima has made it clear in his novel that there was never anyone else but him in Tifa's heart.

Plus their shared future, family they formed together etc. etc. etc. yadda yadda yadda.

As for Aerith, she clearly loves Cloud romantically but his feelings for her were purposefully left ambiguous. I have yet to be shown any interview or any dialogue where he tells her that he feels the same way. If you find it, let me know. That's the stuff people can dream and let their imagination go wild about. Doesn't make it real though.



LTD thing is already dead to me after completing og. Like I've talked to you about, compilation are like pieces of the puzzle being put together to create a picture. Remake trilogy might not end as the better game for most people who loved the og, but they definitely improved on so many things. Things make more sense now in relation to characterization.

The LT, such as it was, died with Aerith. Died even harder when Cloud got his full self back. The Debate, that's the part that lives, if living is the right word, like a lich, devouring the souls and sanity of those who stray too close.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
No, THE WOMAN made a one sided confession in the afterlife. We can't be sure who the woman is[/sarcasm]

Sorry, it just bugs me that we act like it's not just as obvious who Tifa is a lover to as it is who the man and woman in COL are.

Well, I know it's Cloud. We all know it's Cloud!? But this is what I’ve turned into after being in this fandom for almost two years.

With these people, if Cloud’s name isn’t spoken aloud in the same sentence, they would rather say “it could be anybody” than admit it’s Cloud.
 
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Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
Some people have this really entrenched image of FFVII in their minds. Typically they don't seem to understand that the player choices were about as meaningful as the player choices in Fire Emblem Awakening. As in, those choices never affected the plot and if they did affect anything, they affected the party's feelings, not Cloud's. That FFVII was never a Western RPG otome ala Bioware who give multiple resolutions to their romances.

That the "LT" died with Aerith. It further died with the Lifestream scene. And the final nail was Under the Highwind.

They also ignore that post-game Tifa and Cloud have all the trappings of a post-timeskip shonen couple (living together, two kids), but they tend to ignore and hate AC anyway.

Tifa undeniably has romantic feelings for Cloud.

Aerith undeniably had romantic feelings for Cloud or what she saw in Cloud Zack, but would she have had those feelings for "real Cloud" too? Who knows, but by the time AC rolls around she seems to think of him as a big kid.

Cloud undeniably has romantic feelings for Tifa. They're mentioned in the game and in every post-game material. Did he have romantic feelings for Aerith too? Well, seeing as the devs have never confirmed nor denied it, I suppose this is the part that's up to interpretation and people can interpret whatever makes them happy.

(Didn't really write that as well as I hoped to but it'll have to suffice.)
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
The thing is, how you interpret Cloud's feelings towards Aerith are due to players' choices. That's why it's never confirmed because it can change from a player to another, depending if they chose Aerith or Tifa. However, the players' choices do not supercede the story itself; and that's why the story tells you "Cloud loves Tifa, the end".

Some players chose to believe that their choice (aka Aerith) would "win" if she hadn't died, but that's not true; she's barely mentioned after her death and we're still shown that Cloud doesn't understand her, which should be the biggest hint about his feelings towards her.

But how the OG played out is also the reason why Remake is this way: much less players' choices, a lot of cloti scenes that aren't "optional", so that finally Mideel, the LS scene and the Highwind scene will form a cohesive ensemble, a momentum for the players who will be able to understand the nature of especially the LS scene and what it says. Fans will get a "ah, they love each other" feeling rather than a "ha, who knows who Cloud loves?"
 

frosty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Snowman
Ryeleigh said:
FFVII was never a Western RPG otome ala Bioware who give multiple resolutions to their romances.
I don't think the most vocal FFVII LTD combatants play many other games to see what "real" players choice means tbh. Or at least from what I observed. Sometimes I don't think they're gamers at all even ?

And the funny thing I learned with JRPGs that are truly canon-less, 100% player's choice is that the "male hero comforting a crying / hurt girl" is A BIG romantic trope.

I swear a good third of my experience with Persona was pretty much:

Me: Oh she's crying, i feel bad for her, but i want to romance the next girl
Game: Hug character A?
Me: Yea sure why not, we're friends!
Game: There's no turning back
Me: Huh?
Game: Your relationship with A is now intimate
Me: Huh?
Game: *proceeds to call A my girlfriend the whole remainder of the game and serves her as options for Xmas, Valentine's day and White Day
 
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Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
I don't think the most vocal FFVII LTD combatants play many other games to see what "real" players choice means tbh. Or at least from what I observed. Sometimes I don't think they're gamers at all even ?

Oh, there are some who are gamers. But I'm not entirely sure they've actually internalised anything from them :) Their basic idea seems to be that "if SE wanted cloti to be canon, they would've written a very special memo". That, or Cloud and Tifa would've turned towards the camera and decidedly said that they're together now.

I don't know. It's the regular practice of rejecting what's in the actual text in favour of what's in their heads?

And the funny thing I learned with JRPGs that are truly canon-less, 100% player's choice is that the "male hero comforting a crying / hurt girl" is A BIG romantic trope.

I swear a good third of my experience with Persona was pretty much:

Me: Oh she's crying, i feel bad for her, but i want to romance the next girl
Game: Hug character A?
Me: Yea sure why not, we're friends!
Game: There's no turning back
Me: Huh?
Game: Your relationship with A is now intimate
Me: Huh?
Game: *proceeds to call A my girlfriend the whole remainder of the game and serves her as options for Xmas, Valentine's day and White Day

Lol, I remember when I played Dragon Age: Origins the first time and I had no idea I could romance my teammates. I thought I was just being friendly until one of them said something decidedly flirty and I was like, that was supposed to happen, right? o__o
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Well, I know it's Cloud. We all know it's Cloud!? But this is what I’ve turned into after being in this fandom for almost two years.

With these people, if Cloud’s name isn’t spoken aloud in the same sentence, they would rather say “it could be anybody” than admit it’s Cloud.

Even if it is, sometimes. I mean we have a reunion files quote referring to "their future" the CC Complete Guide keyword of the two of them - and Zack and Aerith didn't get a shared keyword in the Crisis Core Complete Guide - and they refuse to admit Tifa is important to Cloud.

I don't think the most vocal FFVII LTD combatants play many other games to see what "real" players choice means tbh. Or at least from what I observed. Sometimes I don't think they're gamers at all even ?

And the funny thing I learned with JRPGs that are truly canon-less, 100% player's choice is that the "male hero comforting a crying / hurt girl" is A BIG romantic trope.

I swear a good third of my experience with Persona was pretty much:

Me: Oh she's crying, i feel bad for her, but i want to romance the next girl
Game: Hug character A?
Me: Yea sure why not, we're friends!
Game: There's no turning back
Me: Huh?
Game: Your relationship with A is now intimate
Me: Huh?
Game: *proceeds to call A my girlfriend the whole remainder of the game and serves her as options for Xmas, Valentine's day and White Day

P4 is also an amazing example for when a pairing is so obvious the creators don't feel the need to say "Yeah, that's the one," sepcifically Kanji and Naoto.
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
Exactly~ and this is the case up until Cloud regains his true self.

Once he regains his true self back ( thanks to Tifa) there's no more choices. He's making his own choice and own path with Tifa of course.

The thing is, how you interpret Cloud's feelings towards Aerith are due to players' choices. That's why it's never confirmed because it can change from a player to another, depending if they chose Aerith or Tifa. However, the players' choices do not supercede the story itself; and that's why the story tells you "Cloud loves Tifa, the end".

Some players chose to believe that their choice (aka Aerith) would "win" if she hadn't died, but that's not true; she's barely mentioned after her death and we're still shown that Cloud doesn't understand her, which should be the biggest hint about his feelings towards her.

But how the OG played out is also the reason why Remake is this way: much less players' choices, a lot of cloti scenes that aren't "optional", so that finally Mideel, the LS scene and the Highwind scene will form a cohesive ensemble, a momentum for the players who will be able to understand the nature of especially the LS scene and what it says. Fans will get a "ah, they love each other" feeling rather than a "ha, who knows who Cloud loves?"
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
As I am a shipper, I wanted to talk about those four scenes that got talked about a lot here, notably, and elsewhere:

ltd2.jpg ch11-ltd01.jpg ch11-ltd07.jpg ch11-ltd18.jpg

For the record, I play in French, those screenshots are old screenshots I took off YT back when I could only watch the game and I can play slowly (because I borrow my husband's computer so it's like once a week or so and I've also been slowed down by a tendinite yay).

As a shipper, I thought prior to playing those scenes that I would be more "impressed" by those scenes when I'd play them, but it was almost a case of "that was it?". It felt really overblown, by us in LT discussions, but there are still impressions that those scenes left me with:

- in the sewers, Tifa can only ask this question to Cloud "how did you know her?" because there is more than friendship between the two. This is a case of showcasing that their relationship is not "just friends". There is a little doubt planted in Tifa's mind that does get resolved in the fourth scene, but it's not that deep​
- yes Cloud definitely asked BOTH how they were but I think more notably this scene is a hint of the Mount Nibel memory when both him and Tifa fell. Cloud was literally frozen and looking at where she fell because it did shock him that much. I don't think that he actually remembers it, mind you but true!Cloud underneath was certainly shook enough to show up there.​

- in the next scene, I felt no trace of LT, to be very honest; the French is very clear that Aerith is trying to cheer up Tifa who's absolutely deeply scared of ghosts - and Cloud doesn't fare that much better either. In this level, we can see that Tifa often remains very close to Cloud because she is scared - she also seeks Aerith's protection. Aside the fact that Cloud goes "OMG girls are touching me, what do I do?", there's not much LT-side. As Toriyama pointed it, it's not that deep, it was just made for fun for the player rather than for the LT element of the story.​
- last scene is when Cloud saves the girls against the wagon, and this scene is interesting because if you follow me, this is mainly a cloti reinforcement scene; it doesn't truly needs to be here but it is, because Cloud actually *needs* to save Tifa and to make her know about it. This scene is very intimate in a way, and you can see Aerith intruding - it's there to show the player that no matter what, Tifa will always get a different treatment.​

But then again, those were very fleeting feelings; none of those scene truly made a lasting impression on me - did I watch them too often to try to interpret them? Or does playing give another vibe altogether? @odekopeko insists it's the latter and I do find it interesting that it's mostly true; I didn't think much about all the flirting between Cloud and Tifa in chapter 3, but when I played I was overwhelmed. The feeling left by Aerith was very different, as they were building their friendship. I think however interesting how they're like puzzle pieces that assemble towards a greater narrative, as far as LT and characterisation are concerned. I can clearly see, in game, how Tifa has an effect on Cloud and how their scenes, may they be alone or not, have an intimacy that others don't have.

I guess this is why I've the heavy feeling that the devs are out to kill the LT (yes, even though I expect Cloud and Aerith to have nice scenes in Rebirth). I'm just like "be my guests" lol. In the way it's filmmed, narrated, the characterisation, the situation, they've decided to leave no blurry area for the LT - probably due to the realism that goes with this game.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
Mostly canon, I think? It's official and made in collaboration with the FF7 developer team. The staff interviews and commentary are probably still considered canon. Some parts (like the character diaries) were written by Benny Matsuyama, who's a hired gun so there's some room for debate there. Canon is a fuzzy word at any rate and needs context. What sort of LTD shenanigans are we dealing with?

There's also a thread for Dismantled translations if you haven't already seen it. You might be able to get TurquoiseHammer's attention for specific questions if you don't get a better answer here.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
They're probably talking about the inner monologues of the characters throughout FFVII Benny wrote for Dismantled, which would be of the same "canon" worth that Maiden is.
 
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LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
Mostly canon, I think? It's official and made in collaboration with the FF7 developer team. The staff interviews and commentary are probably still considered canon. Some parts (like the character diaries) were written by Benny Matsuyama, who's a hired gun so there's some room for debate there. Canon is a fuzzy word at any rate and needs context. What sort of LTD shenanigans are we dealing with?

There's also a thread for Dismantled translations if you haven't already seen it. You might be able to get TurquoiseHammer's attention for specific questions if you don't get a better answer here.

Eh. Ya know. The normal. Aerith and Cloud are lovers

They're probably talking about the inner monologues of the characters throughout FFVII Benny wrote for Dismantled, which would be of the same "canon" worth that Maiden is.

Ok. That's what I figured
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
I have a Wiki account so I edit Zerith, Cloti, and Clerith page on the Shipping Wikia.

The admin usually put a canon status of both Cloti and Clerith in the info box as "semi-canon" but since I add a section named "Development" in the three of them, also edit in Fanon section that both Zerith and Cloti are "rival ship" to Clerith (not only Cloti); the Cloti one is now "canon" even if there's Clerith fans who put it back to "semi-canon", the admin will revert it. You can check it here and tell me what information from the devs that I miss:

https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/Zerith#Development
https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/Clerith#Development
https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/Cloti#Development

In addition, I write about Dismantled's Diary Entries section and "Maiden who Travels The Planet" to clear up the confusion on
https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/Zerith#Fanon

I also put the source of "Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings under the Highwind" here:

1672637572399.png
1672637631358.png

Though, I dont edit Cloti section much since "Trace of Two Pasts" section is still empty.
 
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Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I hope the remake really clarifies how she feels about Zack after meeting Cloud because she doesn’t seem to dwell on him much in the OG

I never really understand this position, because to me it feels like dwelling on Zack is pretty firmly established as Aeriths main character arc in FFVII in regards to romance.

There is a slight nuance here that I think is actually really important.
Some people say that Aerith in FFVII is "falling in love with Cloud", I say she's "getting over Zack".
It's the same process, but the focus is very different. Just falling in love with Cloud isn't a character arc, it's just a mechanic. What really shows "growth" is Aerith accepting the past and moving on.

I've always seen Cloud as being very much of secondary importance here, it's not about Cloud, it's about Zack (and Aerith), and how Cloud helps her get to terms with that.

The reason I say so is because in my opinion Aeriths storyarc in FFVII in regards to Zack is firmly wedged between two scenes that together constitute what people pretend as the "evidence for Clerith". Namely the two dates.

Ignoring the single flower scene, the real first meeting with Cloud and Aerith is when he falls through her roof, like Zack did. Zack falling through the roof is a CC thing so I will ignore that since we're talking about OG. However the OG still implies pretty strongly later on that Aerith here is latching onto Cloud because of his similarities to Zack, Cloud is essentially a stand-in.

Anyway, the first thing they do, their first meeting, is a date. And what is Aerith working up to during this date? Asking about Zack. This date is about Zack. This sets-up her characters journey, and it's not about Cloud, it's about Zack. The remake makes this more explicit "gotta look forward, not back". But the OG already implies this.

Then we have the journey, where despite people's beliefs to the contrary, not much romance happens. What mostly happens is that Clouds fake persona is being set-up, which will later be revealed to be based on Zack, which gives context to what was actually happening between Aerith and Cloud during said journey and why Cloud could help her through this. In fact, the most emotional moment in regards to romance is again related to Zack, it's the scene where we meet the parents in Gongaga. This is the second clue we get about Aerith, hinting at the past that is underlying her current actions. Zacks name was hinted at during the first date, here more is revealed. On a second playthrough we can understand that Aerith coming to terms with her feelings regarding Zack by traveling with someone whose personality is based on Zack is most definitely "about Zack", not Cloud. The whole "I have 23 tiny little wishes, but I've combined them into 1, I want to spend more time with you" thing again just makes explicit what the OG already heavily implied, that what Aerith is getting to do through her journey with Cloud was to "spend more time with Zack". Cloud is Zacks living legacy, he essentially takes on Zacks duty here by narratively allowing Zack to fulfill Aeriths wish post mortem.

Then the second bookend of this story comes in the form of the second date in the golden saucer, a date which is once again defined by Aerith talking about Zack. That is the subject, that's the plot point getting addressed. Aerith is now pointing out how she saw Zack again in Cloud, but that it's not the same, that he's not the same, and that she wants to get to know the real him.

This marks the end of this particular story beat. We have Aerith seeing Zack in Cloud, her coming to terms with her past in regards to Zack by traveling with Cloud, and here we have her finally letting the past rest. While the entire story is about "gotta look forward, not back" everything prior to this point wasn't "aerith looking forward", but Aerith "getting to the point where she can start looking forward", that's the arc. The whole "acceptance of the past" thing is a recurring theme in FFVII, for Aerith this applies both to Zack, as her heritage as an ancient. Again, through Cloud Zack has now fulfilled her one wish, and by doing so she can now finally move on.

Anyway, it's after this scene that Aerith starts looking at the future, it's after this scene that Aeriths story with Cloud is about Cloud, and not Zack. This is made virtually explicit when we move from the golden saucer to the temple of the ancients, and what happens? We have Aerith asking Caith sith about her future with Cloud. This is the first, the one and only, romantic moment between Cloud and Aerith that is truly about Cloud. (or well, it's still about Zack, since Clouds personality is based off him, but at the very least Aerith is now looking at Cloud for Cloud, and not because she longs after Zack).

And then, having completed her story-arc, she dies at the most tragic moment, right after she accepts the past and starts looking at the future.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
I agree with you and I think that's probably one of the naggy things for me about Zerith; in the OG, she is supposed to move on from Zack. Sure, by falling for Cloud who is copying a vast amount of his personality - which Aerith does notice but is also attracted to - but still, Aerith *does* move on.

However in Lifestream White, she states that she loved Cloud using past tense; does that mean that her feelings for him by the time CoLW happen are in the past and only some nostalgia remains? Similarly, ACC ends in a Zerith note, and we know that "at all time, her first love Zack is by her side". And I think this needs explanations, really. We truly do need their reunion because... wasn't she supposed to be over him? To me there's this link never explained about Aerith's feelings between her death and the end of ACC so it feels disconnected.

If my theory about the Aerith we see in her resolution in Remake is true, then it would mean that this Aerith is dead, but hasn't met Zack yet; she is still pained by her one-sided feelings (she doesn't want to fall for Cloud and I think people don't really pay attention to what the devs are saying because once that truly sinks in.... oh boy, the implications of this are huge for Aerith's character) and clearly she hasn't gotten closure on these feelings yet. Seeing her pained face is actually what made me truly believe that the devs were going to give the fans and Aerith a reunion with Zack which will settle those feelings. I also think this is the version of Aerith who sent her younger self memories of the future so she could fight Sephiroth better - and she sent none about Zack because obviously she doesn't know what has happened exactly yet?

Thinking about Aerith and Zack in the Lifestream, there is a lot to be said about what happen to feelings in general once you die; anger, love, hatred... Very obviously Sephiroth hangs onto Cloud's hatred for him to continue living way past his demise, so that means these feelings do still exist. In the same way I remember an ads in Famitsu talking about Dissidia and how Cloud and Tifa were connected through the Lifestream's memories despite the fact that they were made to forget about their true selves in the game (I'll try to get that quote but it's... somewhere in my chat with peko lol).

But I once thought that once you died all those feelings were washed away and you didn't get to really feel anything once dead. Like you're dead, it's game over. It doesn't seem to be the case for a few selected ones, namely Aerith and Zack and Cloud and Tifa. How Zack can "survive" in the Lifestream is a mystery - Aerith's probably behind this, isn't she? I do feel that they probably allowed themselves to dissolve in the Lifestream after AC/C, but maybe not (depending if they want to make a new game/story etc. where they appear lol). Anyway sorry for the rambling, but I feel there is much to discover there and I really really hope that like what I once hoped - that we'd get to see Aerith's side once she'd die - will be seen in Re- series (maybe not before the third game I guess?).
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
The thing about lifestream white is that the phrasing, at least in english, can mean two things. If I remember correctly the phrasing is "for she had loved him", that could either indicate that she no longer loves him, but could just as easily be a reference to the fact that she's talking about herself as she had been in life. When I say I loved my grandmother I don't mean I no longer love her, I just mean "she's dead", works the same in reverse.
I've been studying japanese lately but unfortunately I'm not yet good enough to translate scripts so I can't say much about the japanese version since by necessity I wouldn't be judging the japanese version but an english translation someone else has made. All I know is that she said "koibito" and that Cloud was "symbolic" of that and other things.

While this is the one piece of media where the phrasing does seem a bit weirdly chosen I don't think it should be given much more meaning than just "Aerith had a crush on Cloud when she died". Shipper tend to over analyse every sentence. "wait, aerith had a crush on cloud when she died? Does that mean no longer? does that mean the real Cloud?". Nah, don't overcomplicate it, she just had a crush, not every sentence is a statement about Cloud vs Zack or any of that.

We truly do need their reunion because... wasn't she supposed to be over him? To me there's this link never explained about Aerith's feelings between her death and the end of ACC so it feels disconnected.
This is another thing that I think people conflate unnecessarily. Just because you're over someone doesn't mean you no longer love them, or are even no longer in love with them. I still love my grandmother after all, even if I've come to terms with her death.
When your spouse dies you can come to terms with that, that doesn't mean you no longer love them, it doesn't mean that if you were reunited with them in an afterlife you wouldn't immediately run crying into their arms. They are two completely different concepts.
Aerith comes to terms with Zacks death, or at the very least him being gone....but she still loves him, that has never changed.

How Zack can "survive" in the Lifestream is a mystery - Aerith's probably behind this, isn't she? I do feel that they probably allowed themselves to dissolve in the Lifestream after AC/C,
Oh I definitely think Zack and aerith are meant to dissolve after AC/C. This comes back to the concept of the "memetic legacy". Sephiroth in AC/C is the external physical threat that is tied to the inner struggles of the protagonist.
Cloud has to let go of the past, it's his refusal to let go of Aerith and Zack that symbolically chains them to this world. Cloud can't let go of his feelings. And it's that same concept that allows Sephiroth to survive, because Clouds hatred for him essentially turns him into a horcrux.

The words 'memetic legacy’ are used a lot in the film but in AC, rather than focusing on memories we
wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea.
Even if they’re dead their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud… he sees Aerith several times throughout
the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness
lives on inside him.
If memories and life are all made up form lifestream, then a memory of a person is really like a small part of them still exists in this world. Which is how Sephiroth manages to survive and return. The thematic conclusion to all this comes in the form of Cloud going "stay in my memories, where you belong", signifying that Cloud is done living in the past, he's going on, and leaving Sephiroth there.
Similarly Cloud accepting the past finally allows Aerith and Zack to also move on, signifying that by refusing to let the past go he wasn't honoring them or attoning or anything, he was letting something that was beautiful be slowly poisoned. Aerith and Zack wouldn't want Cloud to live feeling guilty in their name. That just does them more pain, they want Cloud to let them go and to live his life, that's how he honors them, that's how he fulfills his role as Zacks living legacy.
That concept is then shown by the flowers being plated on Zacks grave, and Zacks bustersword being planted in Aeriths church. Now shining, by letting the past go Cloud lets it be beautiful, and Aerith and Zack can finally rest.
 
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Maidenofwar

They/Them
I disagree to an extent on some things, I don't think it took all the way to the Gold Saucer for Aerith to be interested in Cloud for Cloud. We know the scene where she asks Marlene what Cloud is like is Canon ( at least in OG) because of the Ultimania with Marlene's profile and that information. At least for OG is the case and other Ultimania stuffs such as her sensing the truth and wanting to know more. Remake could be different, to one extreme or the other depending on how much they want to destroy or enforce this, or just remain relatively balanced and stick to OG/ Ultimania Canon.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I'm honestly very curious of how they're going to handle Aerith in Rebirth. I do think we're going to have more Zerith, especially in Gongaga, but there isn't much romance past Midgar in the OG, so they're definitely going to add stuff that will recontextualise how we're supposed to see Aerith during this part of the game.

@Stiggie thanks for the informative post! Though of course I know that Aerith still cherishes Zack, I think the fact that she fell for Cloud in the mean time is an obstacle to their feelings. Because if you fall for someone, reuniting with your first love will always feel different. There can be a lot of feelings associated with that person (especially if you reunite in death I guess), ranging from nostalgia to not wanting them nearby to discover that you still love them like you always did. Of course, given it's Aerith, she cherishes Zack, but is her love for him the same as it always was? I think the devs ought to explore that especially because the last words we have from Aerith herself is that the last person she loved was Cloud. It creates a lot of interpretations that can vary (especially since some people are still stuck on Maiden), and there's still a weird gap and interrogation surrounding Zack.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
I could tell this is Aerith's journey from CC ending

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Anyway, it's after this scene that Aerith starts looking at the future, it's after this scene that Aeriths story with Cloud is about Cloud, and not Zack. This is made virtually explicit when we move from the golden saucer to the temple of the ancients,
There's a scene I wonder, the fact that Aerith left the group in Gongaga. The place where Cloud wake up after Temple of Ancient incident is none other than Gongaga while it could be really random place or town they didn't visit before. I read doujinshi about it while ofc it's just plain headcanon, Zack and Aerith's business is likely finished up here offscreen (one has story that she visit the graveyard accepting that he's gone, one has story that she meet his parents again), before she went by herself under the sky she's supposed to fear as her brave action to protect the Planet AND Cloud "lemme handle this, I dont want you to break down". Idk if you're familiar with Rurouni Kenshin, this process is similar to how Tomoe leave Kenshin to protect him when he slept, after the night she unleash the grief and let go of her fiancee's death; that she want to not let the man who gives her new happiness, the second man she loves, die, too.

I just wish Rebirth could show this. I'm also not sure Rebirth would keep the dialogue of her asking Cait Sith's fortune about her compatibility with Cloud because it will taint her friendship with Tifa since Remake has establish it better than OG ever show. They could remove the dialogue in Midori Park between Cloud & Aerith that she and Zack weren't dating / serious, why not they remove Cait's fortune too?

through Cloud Zack has now fulfilled her one wish, and by doing so she can now finally move on.

No one can't move on without closure, and her closure is not "Cloud replacing Zack to spend more time with her" IMO, it would never be the same and won't give her closure. She had let go of Zack, yes, not viewing Cloud as his shadow anymore; letting go is moving on process but not yet has completely move on. "Let go" is the definition of finally removing the pain, you're not hurt anymore while "Moved on" is the next and final step which is forgetting you ever had the pain. Before FF7, she has known he returned to Planet but can't let go of the death itself, and then, she always want to know what happen to him but afraid to ask. Her closure is the answer of "why he cannot spend more time with me / why we can't be together? / why did he die?" Now after accepting/letting go, she's ready to hear. If she made it alive when Cloud regain his memories and tell her, she would get closure because she definitely know that Zack never meant to not fulfill her wish, that he tried to come back to her. It's all what she need to hear, that he does love her too. I think the day before final battle is the time for everyone to get closure as they go back to their home or they can't be ready for the fight to win. After battle, they are all moving on (except for Vincent who never try before Dirge) and finally have moved on. And if Tifa didn't exist, I'd root for Aerith's happy ending with Cloud as she loves him, too.

So, even if she can now finally move on, her death make her not completely moved on yet.

Another example, Zack also doesnt move on yet from Angeal's death, but he has let go of him the time he changed his hair style. The closure he needs is if he felt finally embracing his dream and becoming a hero as Angeal taught him but we know the time skip is him still questioning what does he fight for and he keep asking "Angeal, what should I do?" Ironically, his closure is when Angeal pick his spirit up, reassuring. Ironically, the same goes with Aerith, her closure is when she reunite with Zack, too, that now they're together as her wish "isshou ni tai desu".
 
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