SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

That would be fun. Also, isn’t one of the things Zack says about Tifa “Huh…weird girl.” when she reacts badly to not seeing Cloud as part of the Nibelheim group? And then later Cloud kinda says the same thing about Aerith.

Yeah, I think so!

Rebirth was fun cause you could see how aggravating Tifa found Zack (played by Cloud) as a teenager and I thought it was so funny.

 

[Rin]

oh something else I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer to that someone here might know, what does Aerith mouth to Tifa?
I am guessing it's something supportive, and not "I'll cut you bitch, he's mine" or something, which would also mean that if Aerith is actively trying to make a pass at Cloud later on that would make her....well.... not cool.

I've heard she says "Good luck".

 

[Hix]

Sorry for double post, but I also struggle to think of anyone Zack wouldn’t get along with. He becomes such fast friends with Biggs, Marlene and Elmyra. Even though his scenes near the end are confusing as heck, he’s just rolling with it, going on about his dreams and how everyone should have dreams and everyone matters and all I can say is “Oh Zack I love you.”

Zack is just a great guy, entirely wholesome and a real, legitimate hero in every sense of the word.

I've always thought he must be one of the most hardest to dislike people in the franchise, but wow lately I've been shocked by some of the rhetoric coming out of CA circles. Saying they hate him more than anyone, calling him a loser and a reject, wishing that he'll die again unhappy and alone.

In any case, he hasn't been brought back to be cucked in the end. Nor has Aerith's personal arc focused on realising she's not over him done so not to have. We already knew she wasn't, of course, one does not wear the bow of an ex, or always dress in pink solely to fulfil the promise. But now we have the recreation of the dates, the admission - to Cloud no less - she still has feelings for him, and the Sector 5 moment of clarity.

Nobody deserves a happier ending than these two, together. Gotta believe it's coming in part 3.

That said, people going on and on about them is...a thing that I think can get really obsessive sometimes. I find it's supposed to be more something to appreciate if you get it and is an accompaniment otherwise. This isn't like Ar Tonelico, in which songs are literally magic and is part of the lore, so what the lyrics are and who sings them actually matter as part of canon.

Ar Tonelico is a great shout! Croix learning hymnos to sing a love ballad at the end of 2 remains one of the most romantic moments in gaming for me.

 

[shady]

oh something else I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer to that someone here might know, what does Aerith mouth to Tifa?
I am guessing it's something supportive, and not "I'll cut you bitch, he's mine" or something, which would also mean that if Aerith is actively trying to make a pass at Cloud later on that would make her....well.... not cool.

So the only ones I know that have been established are

German - Ein Gluck!
Spanish I think
Japanese - Yokatta ne (or something like that)

Basically it all points to something like, "I'm glad you are okay" or something similar, though why they chose to have no audio for this I don't know, shipping bait?

 

[Rin]

So the only ones I know that have been established are

German - Ein Gluck!
Spanish I think
Japanese - Yokatta ne (or something like that)

Basically it all points to something like, "I'm glad you are okay" or something similar, though why they chose to have no audio for this I don't know, shipping bait?

That makes more sense than "Good luck" for sure

 

[Empyrea]

Ar Tonelico is a great shout! Croix learning hymnos to sing a love ballad at the end of 2 remains one of the most romantic moments in gaming for me.

The Heart Talks is one of my faves and I can never get over how romantic it is because it's literally a duet that, in story, is done on the spot. That alone made me a sole Croix x Mir shipper.

Edit to add: Finding another Ar Tonelico fan out in the wild is always a treat!

 

[Maidenofwar]

Alright Rin thank you, I appreciate it. It means a lot that you went looking for Nomura stuff and provided it thank you.

I'm also looking for the interview and sorry if I misunderstood where Nomura says specifically the theme is about the Greatest Showman and that Aerith is the Jenny.

Welcome back MelodicEnigma, nice to see you posting again

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Side note but I just saw that the English version of the Remake Material Ultimania Plus has been delayed again, this time to November of this year

At this rate either we’ll hit Rebirth’s one year anniversary or even Part 3 will be out before we get the Ultimania for Remake lmao

Also confirms we’ll have to make do with fan translations of the Japanese Ultimania for Rebirth for a long ass while before the English version of that Ulti ever sees light of day

 

[Eerie]

I'm also looking for the interview and sorry if I misunderstood where Nomura says specifically the theme is about the Greatest Showman and that Aerith is the Jenny.

I've seen the Nomura interview about the Greatest Showman but I've read so many interviews, I have no clue where it was sorry. He doesn't say that Aerith is Jenny, but well, she's the singer and Cloud and Tifa hold hands during her performance, the roles were set by the devs at this point.

 

[Stiggie]

So the only ones I know that have been established are

German - Ein Gluck!
Spanish I think
Japanese - Yokatta ne (or something like that)

Basically it all points to something like, "I'm glad you are okay" or something similar, though why they chose to have no audio for this I don't know, shipping bait?

If it's Yokatta ne that would make sense, and that was actually my instinct as well. But wouldn't Yokatta imply something like her being happy for Tifa? Which in the aftermath of them almost kissing and Yuffie commenting on it would imply that she's happy "for them". Which makes any sub-sequent interpretation of Aeriths relationship with Cloud as her trying to get together with Cloud as being very problematic.

Also, dear lord, just spent over an hour in a single fight against Rufus, how are you supposed to win that normally?

 

[Rin]

Alright Rin thank you, I appreciate it. It means a lot that you went looking for Nomura stuff and provided it thank you.

I'm also looking for the interview and sorry if I misunderstood where Nomura says specifically the theme is about the Greatest Showman and that Aerith is the Jenny.

Welcome back MelodicEnigma, nice to see you posting again

No problem!!

As for The Greatest Showman, I think people are referring to this?

Spoiler

 

[Hix]

The Heart Talks is one of my faves and I can never get over how romantic it is because it's literally a duet that, in story, is done on the spot. That alone made me a sole Croix x Mir shipper.

Edit to add: Finding another Ar Tonelico fan out in the wild is always a treat!

Hear, hear! Croix and Mir are the gold standard of gaming romances IMO, the build up, the ups and downs, then the final payoff. So unbelievably beautiful and I can't not cry at the song. Perfection.

So nice to see someone else who appreciates these games and characters, cause I feel like we're a rare breed lol

If it's Yokatta ne that would make sense, and that was actually my instinct as well. But wouldn't Yokatta imply something like her being happy for Tifa? Which in the aftermath of them almost kissing and Yuffie commenting on it would imply that she's happy "for them". Which makes any sub-sequent interpretation of Aeriths relationship with Cloud as her trying to get together with Cloud as being very problematic.

It's already problematic IMO. Aerith has no impetus to tell Cloud she still loves Zack if she's trying to get together with him, it's self-defeating and unnecessary when Zack's been gone half a decade (which is why we can believe it's the truth)

I'm not saying Aerith doesn't have feelings for Cloud, she clearly does, but rather than go all out to "get him" I feel she's still trying to figure things out. An understandable reaction given the two only met for the first time a few weeks earlier.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I realise my post a while back about Aerith and the ending made me sound very hateful of it, and I still am for the most part given my view it’s immensely disrespectful to Aerith and her character and just very messy BUT

the ending as it stands also has one of my favourite shots from these two games

Spoiler

I haven’t gotten to the ending so my proper emotional response to it in my playthrough may well be very different to my initial response just spoiling it for myself (willingly lol) on YouTube, but seeing this moment made me feel something.

It broke my heart seeing Tifa and Red here outwardly mourning and seeking comfort in each other, and Aerith actually displaying a sadness and regret at her not being able to reach them, and then when Red is able to sense her presence, that made me feel something because it was one of the few instances where it was emotionally resonating with me because it was anchored in other characters emotions and feelings at the moment. It was a sweet, small, tender character driven moment and I just wish there was so much more emphasis on THIS as opposed to the bait and switching, the vagueness and mystery that deprives the final hours it’s much needed moments of emotion.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Zack is just a great guy, entirely wholesome and a real, legitimate hero in every sense of the word.

I've always thought he must be one of the most hardest to dislike people in the franchise, but wow lately I've been shocked by some of the rhetoric coming out of CA circles. Saying they hate him more than anyone, calling him a loser and a reject, wishing that he'll die again unhappy and alone.

In any case, he hasn't been brought back to be cucked in the end. Nor has Aerith's personal arc focused on realising she's not over him done so not to have. We already knew she wasn't, of course, one does not wear the bow of an ex, or always dress in pink solely to fulfil the promise. But now we have the recreation of the dates, the admission - to Cloud no less - she still has feelings for him, and the Sector 5 moment of clarity.

Nobody deserves a happier ending than these two, together. Gotta believe it's coming in part 3.


Ar Tonelico is a great shout! Croix learning hymnos to sing a love ballad at the end of 2 remains one of the most romantic moments in gaming for me.

A lot of people dislike Zack because of the writing in Crisis Core and/or because of his fanbase. ¯\(ツ)/¯ Personally, I've never interacted with Zack's fanbase, though I thought the Zackbro stuff in the Rebirth Spoilers thread was hilarious and cute, lol.

OG Aerith fans (not all of them!) also dislike how much they made her character about Zack (for example, ribbon, pink, flower-selling, five years of grieving and longing) but considering how much Cloud and Tifa's characters and storylines are tied into each other, I'm not exactly sure what else they expected from the other FF7 romance? ¯\(ツ)/¯

Also, Zack gets in the way of CA, lol.

Besides, I just find it kind of disingenuous how people keep saying that "Aerith is allowed to move on" when, well, she's a fictional character for one? If her storyline is about how she hasn't moved on then what can you do about it? Aside from writing fan fic? Also, she and Zack didn't just "break up". He literally disappeared without a trace from her life. He died on his way back to her. Aerith never found out what exactly happened to him and thus never got closure and that's just... not something you get over so easily even if you eventually do "move on"? It doesn't matter that she was young because, according to her story, Zack was irreplaceable to her. She loved him (and still does).

 

[Rin]

It broke my heart seeing Tifa and Red here outwardly mourning and seeking comfort in each other, and Aerith actually displaying a sadness and regret at her not being able to reach them, and then when Red is able to sense her presence, that made me feel something because it was one of the few instances where it was emotionally resonating with me because it was anchored in other characters emotions and feelings at the moment. It was a sweet, small, tender character driven moment and I just wish there was so much more emphasis on THIS as opposed to the bait and switching, the vagueness and mystery that deprives the final hours it’s much needed moments of emotion.

This is literally the ONLY moment from the ending I like because I believe Tifa is her only authentically deep connection (aside from Nanaki). As Aerith herself states, she wants to get to know the real Cloud but the tragedy is she never gets to. Their bond and relationship is important, but it's built on a false persona that Cloud leans into because it makes him feel good (as stated in the Remake Ultimania).

For this reason, I don't consider Cloud to be Aerith's deepest or most important relationship in the game. To me, it's Tifa (and now I'll add Nanaki, too). And that's also why ACC annoys me because there's like zero AerTi content aside from like 2 lines total which pisses me off lol

 

[starcape91]

I made a post somewhere back after Remake came out. It was about how when Cloud meets Aerith after sneaking out of her house and how there is foreshadowing to the Sleeping Forest scene. I was hoping that Aerith would get similar moments in Rebirth with some of the other characters. Oh well.

 

[Eerie]

I honestly would want a remake of ACC with the new characterisations. Characters in that movie rarely talk and it really bothers me.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

This is literally the ONLY moment from the ending I like because I believe Tifa is her only authentically deep connection (aside from Nanaki). As Aerith herself states, she wants to get to know the real Cloud but the tragedy is she never gets to. Their bond and relationship is important, but it's built on a false persona that Cloud leans into because it makes him feel good (as stated in the Remake Ultimania).

For this reason, I don't consider Cloud to be Aerith's deepest or most important relationship in the game. To me, it's Tifa (and now I'll add Nanaki, too). And that's also why ACC annoys me because there's like zero AerTi content aside from like 2 lines total which pisses me off lol

Yep, for me the Costa del Sol adventures with Tifa, Aerith, and Red have been a game and series highlight for me so far honestly.

I am living for this dynamic and the connections and friendships forged amongst these three. Aerith and Nanaki especially have such a special bond that warms my heart, and Tifa is the only other person in the original crew of five you really really see the real Nanaki with, it’s apparent he cares about his friendship with her deeply too. It takes a bit more time with Cloud (as he still has more sidequests to do with him and the revelations at Cosmo Canyon) and they really play the long game developing the relationship between Barret and Nanaki across the entire runtime of Rebirth ( I can’t wait for the payoff with these two at Cosmo Canyon where Barret sees his fatherly energy with Nanaki was not misplaced at all)

But very early on you see Nanaki be more himself and comfortable around Tifa and Aerith (Traces of Two Pasts especially highlights early on the connection Nanaki forges with Tifa, as he is literally the only one to stick around to listen to Tifa’s whole story )

So seeing the ending properly reflect the incredibly deep bonds Aerith had with Tifa and Nanaki, and the friendship Tifa also has with Nanaki respectively so that it makes perfect sense why these two are seen comforting each other in the ending, was the one brilliant stroke of emotionally compelling storytelling in the ending for me.

 

[starcape91]

I honestly would want a remake of ACC with the new characterisations. Characters in that movie rarely talk and it really bothers me.

It’s one of my biggest gripes about AC. They really need to remake it and do better.

 

[Empyrea]

For this reason, I don't consider Cloud to be Aerith's deepest or most important relationship in the game. To me, it's Tifa (and now I'll add Nanaki, too). And that's also why ACC annoys me because there's like zero AerTi content aside from like 2 lines total which pisses me off lol

The Aerti shipper in me was happy enough with those two lines. Cloud actually talked to Aerith (maybe? Because there's room to interpret the one he talks to during the ride to the Forgotten City as his imagination) and sees her during the Bahamut fight, but Tifa knew felt her presence just from a drop of water. They're connected, I swear

On a more serious note, in OG, Cloud's speech to Seph came off to me as a little odd, but Tifa bawling her heart out and running off while crying after the water burial (iirc) left me feeling like the game deprived me of what could've been a great friendship that I should've seen but I didn't cause I'm stuck in Cloud's POV

Hear, hear! Croix and Mir are the gold standard of gaming romances IMO, the build up, the ups and downs, then the final payoff. So unbelievably beautiful and I can't not cry at the song. Perfection.

So nice to see someone else who appreciates these games and characters, cause I feel like we're a rare breed lol

Ikr?! It's only been a decade since I last to talked to someone else who likes Ar Tonelico!

 

[starcape91]

A nice touch is Tifa is super angry when you enter the fight against JENOVA after Aerith’s death. She yells “screw you!”

Later on you fight with Tifa and Cait Sith. Tifa asks Cait how he is. Cait says “better than this thing will be in a few minutes” and Tifa says “you got that right” she is seething.

 

[Eerie]

in OG, Cloud's speech to Seph came off to me as a little odd

You know, I have wondered for the longest time if, in that speech, Cloud was not trying to prove to Sephiroth that he was a human and not a puppet lol. "Look, my eyes are burning, I'm feeling all sad, I'm a freaking human!"

 

[starcape91]

You know, I have wondered for the longest time if, in that speech, Cloud was not trying to prove to Sephiroth that he was a human and not a puppet lol. "Look, my eyes are burning, I'm feeling all sad, I'm a freaking human!"

Oooh, the JENOVA cells being controlled by Sephiroth are blocking out his emotions because Sephiroth wants him to believe he’s a puppet!

 

[JaeKony]

Just because the song keeps coming up and I like dissecting lyrics, I'm going to go through it verse by verse and give my personal thoughts and insights just in case anyone's interested.

Spoiler

VERSE 1:
Walking city streets with worn cobblestones
Listening to people rushing past to rhythms all their own
Life passing me by, not thinking how the years have flown
Until I met you

Aerith is living her life in a monotonous routine. She's a florist from the slums who makes her way to the upper city to sell flowers--a dream she started with Zack and has been carrying out on her own w/o him. She's gotten into such a routine that she doesn't even think about how much time has passed until she meets Cloud.

VERSE 2:
I won't say that it was fate
I won't say that it was destiny
But if not, what could it be
That drew you towards me?
Could it be chance?

Aerith has no idea what drew Cloud toward her (except she does lol) and she muses on whether or not it's fate, destiny, or chance. We know from a meta / narrative POV that it was indeed fate/destiny thanks to the existence of the whispers. Still, Aerith is waxing poetic here about her fated meeting w/ Cloud on the street and wondering if it means and something and if it does... what does it mean, exactly?

VERSE 3:
Till the day that we meet again
Where or when I wish I could say
But believe—know that you'll find me
Promises to keep, we won't ever need

Cloud and Aerith go their separate ways after their first meeting. Of course, she was initially intrigued/knew of him before he knew of her, etc. so she's wondering when they'll meet again. She knows that he'll find her somehow, probably, and he does when he falls through the church at Sector 5.

Alternatively, this verse can also be read as her thinking about Zack as meeting Cloud was a reminder of how much time has passed as she said in verse 1.

VERSE 4:
If only I'd never known
All the burdens I was born to bear
Lived a life without a care
In the world save for you...but that won't do

This verse is about Aerith's loneliness and how she's burdened with the responsibility of being the last Cetra. She wishes she could've lived her life w/o caring about anything except for romance/falling in love. This is not her reality though, as she plainly states here.

VERSE 5:
Till the day that we meet again
On our street, I want to believe
In the chance that we'll share a glance
Promises to keep, we won't ever need

Aerith hopes that one day she and Cloud will meet again on Loveless street and that they'll at least be friendly enough to share a glance. They won't need to speak to each other, or have a relationship for her to be happy with their connection so long as they can acknowledge one another.

VERSE 6-7:
Till the day that we meet again
At our place, just let me believe
In the chance that you'll come
Take my hand and never let me go

Take my hand
And believe
We can be
Together evermore

This is in direct contrast to verse 5, which makes me believe that this verse and verse 3 are NOT about Cloud. She just said in verse 5 that she would be happy if she and Cloud met again on the street and 'shared a glance'. So then why would she be expecting him to show up at 'their place'? The song quite literally separates Loveless Street from 'our place', so these are not the same location otherwise she'd just say 'our street' again.

VERSE 8:
Walking city streets with worn cobblestones
Struggling against the crowds and finding ourselves all alone
Fate and destiny are no guarantee
Still I hope someday you'll come and find me
Still I know someday you'll come and find me

This is where the song kind of becomes meta commentary on the whole multiverse/alternate timeline thing as Aerith goes "back" to her monotonous life of selling flowers on Loveless Street. She knows that what's destined isn't always promised to be a happy ending, still she maintains hope that she'll be found and her journey will start anew.

Got chills reading this. I think is a very valid interpretation that doesn’t discount or denigrate Aerith’s feelings towards Cloud AND Zack.

 

[Empyrea]

You know, I have wondered for the longest time if, in that speech, Cloud was not trying to prove to Sephiroth that he was a human and not a puppet lol. "Look, my eyes are burning, I'm feeling all sad, I'm a freaking human!"

My own thoughts at the time weren't far off!
At the time, I was all, "Dude, if you're trying to tell him he's wrong about you being a puppet... why in the seven hells are you talking like a malfunctioning robot?"