SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened with Witcher 3. A bunch of Triss Merigold fans strong armed CDPR and demanded equal treatment with Geralt's indisputable from-page-one love interest Yennefer. And the Triss fans got exactly what they wanted, a bunch of in-game, out-of-character recognition and support. Being cheered on by Ciri of all people? The fuuuug? With CDPR saying they hoped it would "stop the infighting" (that would have never have started had they followed the books, lmao).

Not a game but same thing with Riverdale (oh how I miss that glorious piece of shit). The shipper inmates ran that asylum. You thought Jughead was ace? Suck it representation. Get that beautiful beanied hunk a woman ASAP. Even if it's the most embarrassing sounding ship ever. Ok, 2nd most embarrassing after Vughead.

And then there's Aerith, for whom being dead has fewer downsides than being a Twilight vampire. Instead of the sudden, meaningless death that made gaming history, this chick had a farewell tour that would have made Kobe Bryant blush. What's there to mourn? We don't need no stinkin' mourning scene. She's immortal. She'll disappear when Sephiroth does, which we can safely file under never. No one's ever really gone. I can't prove SE is caving to fan pressure, but... they sure seem like they're trying hard to please fans who wanted her alive regardless?

The point is, I agree with your point. You can't always get what you want (there's your House M.D. reference @Empyrea). We really should take charge of our own imaginations when fiction doesn't go our way. Unfortunately, it's never been easier for fans to get organized and demand the plot be sacrificed on the altar of fanservice. And if it's a publically traded company? They're listening.

You're not wrong at all. I guess our saving grace is that they're a pretty small fandom with a very loud voice. They can't even organize well enough to win polls; they don't buy Aerith merch; a lot of them don't even buy or play the games. Money talks and it talks loud, louder than tweets and tumblr rants, so I guess we've lucked out that these extremists haven't learned to make a point with their dollar in 27 years lol

 

[GamerSkull]

I’m sorry I still can’t get over this idea that Tifa is responsible for Cloud’s mental state and is toxic.

His feelings of inadequacy (and I truly feel bad for him) are from himself… and the further complications come from Jenova who exists within him because of Hojo.

Tifa literally had nothing to do with any of this.

 

[Ryushikaze]

tbh, I find it difficult to compare Cloud/Aerith's dynamic to any other relationship in media, because how many other stories have a woman being attracted to another man because he reminds her of her ex AND for the reveal to be that said man was actually pretending to be her ex/was best friends with him all along? There are so many layers/so many other people outside of the relationship who complicate it.

Inu-Yasha. In reverse. Sort of.

I'm actually thinking it might be more of a "yes, but not yet" lol it's still a story hook, and clearly a compelling enough hook to keep us coming back here, but I suppose I can only speak for myself.

And also, it's not actually uncompelling to tell the story of Aerith as wanting to move on and trying to make Cloud fit into into her life in a way he never will - they really do seem to have wanted to lean into the tragedy of her situation, but I just don't think they paced this out well enough. A lot of these moments kind of feel like they're just shoehorning anything at all in order to say that they added something to progress this theme, or else, maybe it's the fact that it is shoehorned that becomes it.

I don't really know with these guys though lol I'm still trying to understand what happened in the FF13 series.

In the beginning a god gave birth to the universe. This was considered a mistake by all involved. After numerous bandaid fixes, and then an attempt to fix everything by literally fucking with time itself the god chose to force a hard sector crash to restore from a previous state. Lightning, whom he chose for this task realized what was going on, hijacked the process and moved to france. The end.

Not a game but same thing with Riverdale (oh how I miss that glorious piece of shit). The shipper inmates ran that asylum. You thought Jughead was ace? Suck it representation. Get that beautiful beanied hunk a woman ASAP. Even if it's the most embarrassing sounding ship ever. Ok, 2nd most embarrassing after Vughead.

In fairness to Riverdale, ace jughead was relatively new development and it's not like they were paying any attention to any of the stories from the last 80s years of comics anyways. In condemnation of Riverdale, everything else, but most especially that they never had a Jughead evil twin arc.
Though ironically the show could have been saved if they had done a rug pull finale and everything from the second season onwards or maybe more was just Jug's creative writing wortks.

I’m sorry I still can’t get over this idea that Tifa is responsible for Cloud’s mental state and is toxic.

His feelings of inadequacy (and I truly feel bad for him) are from himself… and the further complications come from Jenova who exists within him because of Hojo.

Tifa literally had nothing to do with any of this.

Tifa is doing overtime in letting Cloud know she believes in him. And she does. She believes in him even when he's at his worst. Multiple times. Like, even when she believed Cloud egged her on... she still went out to go meet him at the water tower because she wanted to get closer to him. She dressed up nice for the SOLDIER visit in the hopes that Cloud would be there.

 

[eleamaya]

how many other stories have a woman being attracted to another man because he reminds her of her ex AND for the reveal to be that said man was actually pretending to be her ex/was best friends with him all along?

I dont know how many but one of my favorite shounen/sport manga have it.
Title is "Aoki Densetsu SHOOT!" by Tsukasa Ooshima, ongoing in 1990-1996 (37 volumes) and won Manga Awards in 1994.

The story to me is about the main character becoming his senior’s successor/legacy as he's given the No.10 jersey. His senior died because of leukemia when public was dreaming and hoping of him becoming JPN Rising Star. (You probably won't believe me if I said he died making an epic LAST STAND) The main character feels the burden of it despite his own talent and always being nervous in the field since media now give him the attention his senior got, can't make any goal. And guess what? His senior has a girlfriend he leaves. The main character himself already have a crush on his classmate but still attracted to his senior's ex who actively pursue him and try to convince him that he can become great footballer just like his senior since the two are alike. It boosts his confidence but instead of becoming his own self in the field, HE COPY HIS SENIOR AND IT WORKS, goal and goal are made. Not only that, whenever they go on date, she always take him to the place she went date before with his senior, she also gives him a drinks that is her ex's fave etc. Well, he knows that but enjoy and play along with it....till he finally makes a blunder in the match. He realizes his mistake and tells her "we can't meet again" because he isn't his senior. She cries and apologize because she has been feeling lonely since her boyfriend is gone. Long story short, with a slow burn romance that I hardly have patient with, he finally ends up with his classmate. And ofc he could carry his senior's dream along with his own and surpass him.

A live action movie was made in 1994 and played by SMAP members but story was focused on that love square.

I detail how similar it is with SOLDIER!Cloud and Aerith on my Tumblr blog if you didnt mind to read

If the Twitter Cleriths show up tomorrow, I'm peacing out again, lol.

If a bunch of Clerith fans suddenly showed up, I have no qualms welcoming them and engaging in respectful debate.

We're supposed to be a hive of scum and villainy, yet we have consistently classy, high-quality discussion here

I spotted few Clerith shippers in main Spoiler thread. I recognize one of them has same name as their twitter account.
Mind to invite them here? Haha

 

[null]

I’m sorry I still can’t get over this idea that Tifa is responsible for Cloud’s mental state and is toxic.

His feelings of inadequacy (and I truly feel bad for him) are from himself… and the further complications come from Jenova who exists within him because of Hojo.

Tifa literally had nothing to do with any of this.

Yep, ol' Toxic Tifa they call her. The woman Cloud kisses while staying true to Aerith's love story. It was just a kiss between siblings so it doesn't count. Well, as long as they're not anime siblings. (Protip: never ever watch anime with Sister in the name)

Also did they forget Cloud literally called Tifa beautiful lol

 

[Someonesbunny]

In the beginning a god gave birth to the universe. This was considered a mistake by all involved. After numerous bandaid fixes, and then an attempt to fix everything by literally fucking with time itself the god chose to force a hard sector crash to restore from a previous state. Lightning, whom he chose for this task realized what was going on, hijacked the process and moved to france. The end.

OH! Oh my God, France! Of course!

That must be when she started endorsing Louis Vuitton!

 

[Axiom]

A pair gets a kiss, the other does not.
Even with it being "optional" it should've ended the debates, and yet, it seems it's still going stronger than ever with awful takes from both sides.

I believe in my heart of hearts that the LTD is well and truly dead. It's like the end of WWII. The battle for Europe (Gold Saucer) is over. Japan (twitter) might be willing to fight to the bitter end, but Hiroshima (Lifestream) and Nagasaki (Highwind) are incoming.

 

[liuliuliu]

Also that Aerith theme song trailer for Rebirth, you cannot tell me SE didn't know they were baiting Cloud and Aerith fans like hell with the "trip and fall look they almost kiss" scene from the Gondola date, only to then give the only kiss in the game to Cloud and Tifa. There's no way that's not on purpose i'm sorry

I think it is on purpose, but they probably didn’t anticipate that CAs were baited so bad. I mean it looks like a bait A LOT, I thought the fan base will do better than this but apparently not.
It is probably also the most intimate moment they can get between Cloud and Aerith other than the hand holdings without huge spoilers.
We can go over scene between cloud and Aerith…we got the hand holding x2, which they can’t show in trailer becuse one of them give away the ending and one of them give away what is actually in the date…we got couple scenes where Aerith literally drag Cloud on dates but cloud always looks uncomfortable in those scenes. And there is one that they sit on the water tower might work, but water tower is kinda special to the other ship and that will provoke Tifa’s fan a lot, and they don’t look that close in the scene anyways (Although I have seen “non-context spoilers for Cleriths where CA celebrate the water tower date…I feel sorry for them)
They could use the hug in the Church, but the thing is everyone knows they are not going back to the Church physically…and they also use the church later to show Aerith gives Cloud the white materia(which is actual plot related…)
I actually think the best scene to use should be the selfie Cloud and Aerith took in cosmos canyon. It is sweet, intimate, and Cloud is smiling. They probably can even argue that this is the “real”cloud. But shippers will not be satisfied with that.
Can’t remember any significant scenes between Cloud and Aerith anymore. They talked a lot but rarely in the same shot somehow, oh just my bad memories…

But anyways I think the marketing choices are really interesting.



EDIT: Regarding the LTD I don’t think either SE nor the directors/writers can do anything honestly. They put a KISS in the game. As far as most people’s concern, the LTD is over.
But some people went ahead and interpreted it as a rebound kiss…what else can the devs do? They can’t directly say one ship doesn’t exist. They have to sell the 3rd installment and it is too early to close the fort for part of the fandom.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I've been reading over some stuffs from the last couple years of this thread I had missed, and lemme tell ya guys: the LTD is a Lich. It's dead, it's been dead for a long time, yet it won't stop living until someone finds and breaks it's phylactery Every time you strike it down it'll just reform.

 

[Empyrea]

The amount of "People only like Tifa because of her chest size" remarks i've had to mute on Twitter over the past few weeks is a human rights violation in of itself.

Just knowing that exists makes me wanna shrivel up and cry.

there's your House M.D. reference @Empyrea

Haha thanks xD I can't help but talk in references or comparisons with other media because...when something pops in my head, no matter how little the similarilities and tangential it is, I feel the urge to connect it with the current topic.

The issue is that most of them who do want to debate it .... don't have nice things to say or nice ways of doing it. We do have some very nice and respectful CA fans in here but there's not much to debate since they're pretty accepting of the story as it's told.

I follow a tumblr that discussed this. Tl;dr, the extreme Cleriths often like to throw questions that aren't actually questions but are disguised accusations. To them, there's no discussion to be had and you're wrong from the word go.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened with Witcher 3. A bunch of Triss Merigold fans strong armed CDPR and demanded equal treatment with Geralt's indisputable from-page-one love interest Yennefer. And the Triss fans got exactly what they wanted, a bunch of in-game, out-of-character recognition and support. Being cheered on by Ciri of all people? The fuuuug? With CDPR saying they hoped it would "stop the infighting" (that would have never have started had they followed the books, lmao).

I think I mentioned this before, but anyone familiar with RWBY would probably be familiar with the catastrophe that was Bumbleby. To date, it's the one case I know of a canon pair being actively disliked by most everyone except its diehard supporters.

The only reason I'm posting in this thread is because there's really no "debate" anymore. I deliberately avoided this thread post-Remake, but now this is just a nice place to actually discuss the characters and their relationships. If the Twitter Cleriths show up tomorrow, I'm peacing out again, lollol

Awwwww but we love you
On a more serious note, though, I...also don't think I'd be able to handle it if a Twitter Clerith came here. Looking back on older pages of this very thread, someone like BlankBeat would just make me nope out faster than try to argue with them. They can have the last say for all I care.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Responding to like a lot of points lol, bear with me

Yeah I don't think it's malicious to give nice pretty moments. Or to even have an LT explored for story purposes.


But like shippers on Twt will literally sit there and say oh there was never a love triangle. And it's like um. Both girls having feelings for the same guy? Yes, that is definitely a triangle. And the guy being oblivious and into romantic situations and never outright denying them some cases even slightly smiling. Like on the GS tour he slightly smiles when they wait for the Skywheel then sighs when it's not working giving the impression he looked forward to it at least a little. ( Edit: Yes, you can say he looks uncomfortable in A scenes in comparison to being more open w T in scenes but this can be explained away by stuff like "I'm bad at it....dates". So you can interpret that as he is nervous around the pretty girl regardless of what he feels bc I'm sure he is oblivious myself. Like the clueless anime protagonist in a romance like situation. And CAs are definitely going to see it that way. And that's the thing, they are not being discouraged from seeing it that way)
And stuff like this is 100% going to give the CA side reason to keep hoping. Onesided or not.
And sure one loud part of the fandom has bad takes and they drown every one else out but even my RL fans not in fandom so they are not CAs see Aerith as a love interest. Bc of stuff like that.

Edit: My point here is it may not be canon. But it doesnt matter if it's not, if it's giving people the impression it could be. And that will affect the conversations we have and the takes we see. Most people are not going to take the time to compare scenes or deepdive or go the other route. Most people will react and say what they see misunderstanding or not and that will keep the discourse going.

We can say oh because they dont know the Ultimanias and such, sure but the way it's presented does give the impression and it's kind of very frustating because I know they won't head that direction. So again I reiterate, they could have just not and honestly I'm tired lol.

I'm not falling for the bait. And I try to take everything as a whole. And I analyze everything. I'm just telling how it honestly looks from the CA perspective. And I definitely see why others would take it it is to the point where many don't want to see there even is a romantic connotation. And people arguing against CA rarely argue yes it looks that way but here is what is actually happening like here. No they argue CA has a siblings bond or CA has no romance anywhere none of these scenes even look romantic and basically that we are all just collectively seeing things.

So of course what is going to happen? CAs are going to argue back to say they are not seeing things that there is something there. Sadly the loudest most involved part of the fandom doesn't know how to argue to save their life so it's just Tifa hate. And misogyny nothing substantial. It sucks.
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And the counterarguments to these overzealous fans sometimes make no sense.

Instead of saying CAs misunderstood X bc y...

You get stuff like CAs don't play the games:

When yes, CAs do I have content creator friends who are CAs who played every game. I have also played OG multiple times and CC and before these games. But clearly I didn't. I don't exist.

Yes there are CAs who also only just watch Youtube but to pretend this is not at an exception but the general consensus is weird to me. What about before YouTube playthroughs? There were plenty CAs arguing back then. Did they also not play? It's illogical once you really think about it.

Also that idea CAs dont buy merch:

When again yes they do. I follow Japanese CAs who basically have shelves full of CA merch and is always showing them off. Several of them have like five of the same plushies for example. They go to the cafes to put their CA plushies on the table and take pictures. That statement is about one tiny section of people applied to a whole fanbase.

Also bc most people who are Aerith fans know the story by now they're not going to identify as purely CAs. They contribute not just to buying Aerith stuff they are also going to buy other merch including Tifa and Zack etc. Very few you will find are just dedicated to Aerith alone and even less will advertise that.

As for merch not everyone is going to buy official merch because it's expensive as all heck but at like conventions or third party stores they still might and that's not going to be represented in merch numbers. Like just this year I bought Aerith's theme music box SE official , Aerith bracelet my friend made on Etsy, Aerith shirt non official , Aerith fanart comissions, and I'm trying to buy her necklace and plushie but I'm not going to go through just the SE store because frankly they suck with shipping. Also it's very expensive but like, I was in Japan this summer and the Aerith Adorable arts had a sign I had to reserve it because it was sold out and I couldn't find the plushies or anything at the official store or at other shops. So someone must be buying them. Theyre probably just not going to be on twt arguing, the ones arguing are a handful in comparison who are not a representative of the whole.

Basically the CAs being loud and arguing and spewing hate are but a tiny part of the CA fandom and the arguments made here can apply to them. And that's not entirely accurate either bc some of those toxic ones also play they just also want to hate.
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And basically I always say the LTD is part SE being ambiguous, part an actual triangle bc yes having two people have feelings for one person is still a triangle. It just doesnt mean that one person will reciprocate. And also part fandmade.

And I really think it's fans that care more about it than the devs. The devs might see it as fanservice or giving both sides what they want. I definitely don't think they see the harm. JP media does do that a lot give non intended ships material to enjoy.

And yeah I'm not sure they expect anyone to run with it and for fandom to become a hateful toxic mess. But I do think they should see by now that that's what will happen and tread more carefully. I don't think I like being told one thing but the way it's shown can give me the idea of another even if it's fanservice. As I said they could have just not put those scenes and show friendship instead in other ways. I understand the point of them. I understand why they are there. I'm not confused.

But also they could have just not. They could have just not focused this much on Aerith's feelings for Cloud to the point it's more of her arc than OG. They could have just not had Aerith talk about love in her resolution they could have just not had sidequests that cater to the ship. They could have just not had Marlene tell Zack about Aerith's feelings for Cloud making it look like some shoujo manga where the heroine is torn. Especially if the point they want us to understand is oh it's not real. She loves Zack.

If we want people to buy in to something I don't see why we'd give them reasons to believe what we don't want them to. Which brings me to the conclusion it's fans more bothered by LTD than the devs are.

And I do think I agree with that statement. They probably want to end the LTD but maybe just not fully and not yet.

We can also say Ultimania should have ended it but they also went out of their way to not translate it until years later. Because to them it's probably not a big deal as long as the story is generally understood. And it is. If people see CT and ZA as endgame it should, for the most part be finished. .

But I think it's basically like this CT and ZA are endgame but they're definitely currently leaving some ambiguity and interpretation with CA. They havent closed the door fully on that end even knowing where it will lead, which is what frustrates me because I too know where this is going. It's not that it's unclear. CT and ZA are clear. Have been clear for years. Especially since the Ultimania became a thing. CA however, is still dancing in that limbo of yeah there is only friendship here but have this scene that makes you question that. And that's just how it is.

And if we could just admit that we would be done. Bc essentially it's the fans I think that need to let it end as much as the devs.

And a lot of JP media triangles do end up this way. They know where it will end but give fans reasons to hope anyway until they confirm canon. And I think acknowledging that helps also to add perspective.
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Edit:
Sorry for the million edits. I felt I needed more context on parts. I have a lot of thoughts so hope I make sense at all.

And yes I believe LTD should ended a while ago. And in several ways it did. I don't think clarity with CT or ZA is the issue. I'm just giving perspective on why it "hasn't" in the sense of why arguments continue.

 

[Empyrea]

Honestly, the NPCs do this for him and Yuffie too at certain points of the game (and Aerith herself romanticizes them hanging out lol) so comments like that have started becoming meaningless to me.

Yeah I agree but it's basically not really about what's actually there but how it is perceived. Also Cloud just never denies it. Like with the Aerith date too Madam M calls her his girlfriend and he doesn't deny it.

Let's be real, even if Cloud did deny it, people would then point at that and say he's being defensive because it's true. I've had that kind of thing happen to me and I've seen people apply that kind of thing in media, too.

Way I see it, crumbs are just that: crumbs. Unless it all actually comes together in the end, then at best, it all makes for nice fodder for an AU, and at worst, you were baited -- hook, line, and sinker. And that's disregarding execution, cause... I would say there are some baits I've seen that are much better than what ended up being canon.

That said, my stance on SE's choices land on both money is involved plus they don't really care how about story integrity, at least concerning the LTD.

If anyone here is familiar with Fruit of Grisaia, that VN subverted a lot of anime romcom tropes and had mutiple routes to end the game with. Come the sequel, they made it so all routes are canon and just...played the harem tropes straight as a result.

To have takes like these, you must be ending up on an astral plane with all that projection.

I laughed harder at this than I should've. x3

The fuel for LTD shipping is 100% provided by SE without a doubt. Like it gets to a point where, yes I think CT is the canon romance but I cannot 100% discredit everything that CA's believe either -- unless developers intentionally say so after the fact -- because what they do is give crumbs to both sides to the point where, if both sides argue fairly, they both have points they can make.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong in Part 3 -- because there's been some scenes in this game that you could consider an LTD killer -- but I've often said they just don't have the stones to fully commit to the one side and tell the story they want to tell because they seem to be terrified of alienating one of the sides, the sides that they've fueled for 27 years rather than just say outright what the situation is.

Also because they don't want to fully commit, they want to have their cake and eat it, the characters and the overall story suffer as a result and the fandom becomes toxic, because we're all camping in here chatting about this shit when instead we should be chatting about the great relationships these characters have regardless of romance and about the game itself. Nobody wants this LTD shit anymore, nor have they wanted it for a long ass time, but SE just cannot help themselves it seems.

Like we all have to deal with takes like this

View attachment 14983View attachment 14984View attachment 14985View attachment 14986

Just as we have to deal with equally bad takes about Aerith or Clerith, like her being a homewrecker or whatever. SE just pull the damn plug man.

And I thought the ones I found were bad enough lol These people never fail to astound me.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I’m sorry I still can’t get over this idea that Tifa is responsible for Cloud’s mental state and is toxic.

His feelings of inadequacy (and I truly feel bad for him) are from himself… and the further complications come from Jenova who exists within him because of Hojo.

Tifa literally had nothing to do with any of this.

Nojima literally brought out a whole hardback, thick, BOOK that was a great read, and a wonderful way to tide a lot of us over during the wait for Rebirth, and it was probably something he was cooking anyway, but as plenty of folks have pointed out, Traces of Two Pasts (especially Traces of Tifa) felt like Nojima’s deliberate disavowal of every single terrible take regarding Tifa, Cloud, and their childhood.

And then Rebirth comes out and does this all over again, from the very beginning the old argument of “Oh why doesn’t Tifa say anything?! Why does she keep Cloud in the dark?!” is instantly shot down when in Kalm Tifa actually asks Cloud about his recollection of the Nibelheim incident.

Tifa is the anchor to so many scenes where Cloud is losing himself. And in her Lifestream scene she is able to see for herself how much she means to Cloud. She didn’t try initiating that kiss in Gongaga out of NOWHERE, and as Cloud later confirms to her, Tifa wasn’t getting ahead of herself.

Again, this is all projection when you get arguments that Tifa is responsible for Cloud’s mental state.

Because Tifa isn’t responsible for Cloud’s mental state.

But from the looks of it she’s sure responsible for the mental state of these people coming out with takes like this.

Tifa got rent free living accommodation in a lot of haters heads. Aerith too.

Hardly any other character in the core cast gets the level of vitriol thrown at them than the two heroines do. It’s always depressing when that’s the reality, that so much of this is fuelled purely by a misogynistic hatred and arguably jealousy towards the heroines of FFVII.

That and an almost possessive attachment to Cloud.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I've been reading over some stuffs from the last couple years of this thread I had missed, and lemme tell ya guys: the LTD is a Lich. It's dead, it's been dead for a long time, yet it won't stop living until someone finds and breaks its phylactery Every time you strike it down it'll just reform.

Is… is… the LTD… JENOVA?!

 

[Hix]

"Tifa wants a hero, so Zack is actually her more of her type."

Yo this is actually wild, but I can believe it because it fits right on in with the modus operandi of some Cleriths who eschew actual source material in favour of "that looks nice so it must be true". Pairing Zack and Tifa is particularly egrigous because firstly it's a not-so-subtle attempt to deal with two major hurdles to CA happening at once, but also it ignores the fact Tifa literally tells Zack in Crisis Core she fancies Cloud lol

From Tifa: Sephiroth--I don't get him at all. Is everyone in SOLDIER like him? Oh, and are there any blond guys in SOLDIER? Well, it's just a dream... Any girl would love to have a blond SOLDIER guy protect her when she's in a pinch. Well, it's no good just waiting for my blond knight in shining armor to show up, so I've started learning how to fight, myself. My teacher tells me I've got a knack for it.

From Tifa: I almost forgot. Please don't tell anyone in SOLDIER that I asked about the blond guy. Okay?

Like just in case you thought maybe she likes all blond guys, she specifically says the blond guy.

In any case, you'll note how another argument for CA involves devaluing the characters of all involved and flanderising the story too. Instead of Tifa's long held affections for Cloud, which spurred him to sign up for Shinra and is the catalyst for the entire story, she just likes any old meathead. Zack? He dies desperately trying to get back to Aerith, but he'll fall for Tifa because it's convenient, a real "pair the spares" scenario.

This is why the LTD is dead de jure, but de facto will always be kept going, because some people aren't really debating what actually happens in the franchise anymore.

 

[Empyrea]

Responding to like a lot of points lol, bear with me

Yeah I don't think it's malicious to give nice pretty moments.


But like shippers on Twt will literally sit there and say oh there was never a love triangle. And it's like um. Both girls having feelings for the same guy? Yes, that is definitely a triangle. And the guy being oblivious and into romantic situations and never outright denying them some cases even slightly smiling. Like on the GS tour he slightly smiles when they wait for the Skywheel then sighs when it's not working giving the impression he looked forward to it at least a little.
And stuff like this is 100% going to give the CA side reason to keep hoping. Sure one loud part of the fandom has bad takes and they drown every one else out but even my RL fans not in fandom so they are not CAs see Aerith as a love interest.

We can say oh because they dont know the Ultimanias and such, sure but the way it's presented does give the impression and it's kind of very frustating because I know they won't head that direction.

I'm not falling for the bait. But I definitely see why others would take it it is to the point where many don't want to see there even is a romantic connotation. And people arguing against CA rarely argue yes it looks that way but here is what is happening. No they argue CA has a siblings bond or CA has no romance anywhere none of these scenes even look romantic and basically that we are all just collectively seeing things.

So of course what is going to happen? CAs are going to argue back to say they are not seeing things that there is something there. Sadly the loud part of the fandom doesn't know how to argue to save their life so it's just Tifa hate.

And the counterarguments to these overzealous fans sometimes make no sense.

Instead of saying CAs misunderstood X bc y...

You get stuff like CAs don't play the games:

When yes, CAs do I have content creator friends who are CAs who played every game. I have also played OG multiple times and CC and before these games. But clearly I didn't. I don't exist.

Yes there are CAs who also only just watch Youtube but to pretend this is not at an exception but the general consensus is weird to me. What about before YouTube playthroughs? There were plenty CAs arguing back then did they also not play? It's illogical once you really think about it.

Also that idea CAs dont buy merch:

When again yes they do. I follow Japanese CAs who basically have shelves full of CA merch and is always showing them off. Several of them have like five of the same plushies for example. They go to the cafes to put their CA plushies on the table and take pictures. That statement is about one tiny section of people applied to a whole fanbase.

Also bc most people who are Aerith fans know the story by now they're not going to identify as purely CAs. They contribute not just to buying Aerith stuff they are also going to buy other merch including Tifa and Zack etc. Very few you will find are just dedicated to Aerith alone and even less will advertise that.

As for merch not everyone is going to buy official merch because it's expensive as all heck but at like conventions or third party stores they still might and that's not going to be represented in merch numbers. Like just this year I bought Aerith's theme music box SE official , Aerith bracelet my friend made on Etsy, Aerith shirt non official , Aerith fanart comissions, and I'm trying to buy her necklace and plushie but I'm not going to go through just the SE store because frankly they suck with shipping. Also it's very expensive but like, I was in Japan this summer and the Aerith Adorable arts had a sign I had to reserve it because it was sold out and I couldn't find the plushies or anything at the official store or at other shops. So someone must be buying them. Theyre probably just going to be on twt arguing, the ones arguing are a handful in comparison who are not a representative of the whole.

And basically I always say the LTD is part SE being ambiguous, part an actual triangle bc yes having two people have feelings for one person is still a triangle. It just doesnt mean that one person will reciprocate. And also part fandmade.

And I really think it's fans that care more about it than the devs. The devs might see it as fanservice or giving both sides what they want. I definitely don't think they see the harm. JP media does do that a lot give non intended ships material to enjoy.

And yeah I'm not sure they expect anyone to run with it and for fandom to become a hateful toxic mess. But I do think they should see by now that that's what will happen and tread more carefully. I don't think I like being told one thing but the way it's shown can give me the idea of another even if it's fanservice. As I said they could have just not put those scenes are show friendship instead. They have just not focused this much on Aerith's feelings for Cloud to the point it's more of her arc than OG. They could have just not had Aerith talk about love in her resolution they could have just not had sidequests that cater to the ship. They could have just not had Marlene tell Zack about Aerith's feelings for Cloud making it look like some shoujo manga where the heroine is torn. Especially if the point they want us to understand is oh it's not real. She loves Zack.

And I do think I agree with that statement. They probably want to end the LTD but maybe just fully and not yet.

We can also say Ultimania should have ended it but they also went out of their way to not translate it until years later. Because to them it's probably not a big deal as long as the story is generally understood. And it is. If people see CT and ZA as endgame it should, for the most part be finished.

But I think it's basically like this CT and ZA are endgame but they're definitely currently leaving some ambiguity and interpretation with CA they havent closed the door fully on that end even knowing where it will lead which is what frustrates me.

All this is why I'm not a traditional Cloti per se. Well, one of the reasons.

FFX still has my fave pair cause unlike this mess we have here, Tidus and Yuna have dedicated scenes where they act as both friends and are developing as lovers. Like, no one can tell me Tidus can confide in Lulu or Rikku during the Farplane or Luca bits, for example.

Nojima literally brought out a whole hardback, thick, BOOK that was a great read, and a wonderful way to tide a lot of us over during the wait for Rebirth, and it was probably something he was cooking anyway, but as plenty of folks have pointed out, Traces of Two Pasts (especially Traces of Tifa) felt like Nojima’s deliberate disavowal of every single terrible take regarding Tifa, Cloud, and their childhood.

I still find that whole bit funny x3 Even if I just do it as a hobby, my instant kneejerk reaction to when someone tells me they interpreted a character I wrote in a way I didn't mean is to either explain in person why I wrote it the way I did (cause I wrote for small groups)...or do what Nojima did.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Is… is… the LTD… JENOVA?!

Heh, I was making a D&D reference but damn if that doesn't work just as well while being more topical. You win this round, Grimoire

 

[Maidenofwar]

I don't think they'll come here eleamaya, even here though it's a lot better than tumblr, etc, the way the way the ship and shippers, well Iet's just say it's a lot when something you like gets called toxic, or you read takes that have you going wait what as to why you think something.

Literally here it's not "insane" to say Aerith is Rosa in 4/ 6 dates available on a first play ... it just is.

 

[Maidenofwar]

It's not absolutely insane to have a different interpretation on Loveless, no.

Now I don't think Aerith being Rosa necessarily means it's the only date, but perhaps the default option, or what they intended for if a player was a true neutral by default, or if a player goes out of their way to try and be as neutral as possible, like what happened with me getting Cait Sith with the guys.

 

[Graymouse]

I've been reading over some stuffs from the last couple years of this thread I had missed, and lemme tell ya guys: the LTD is a Lich. It's dead, it's been dead for a long time, yet it won't stop living until someone finds and breaks it's phylactery Every time you strike it down it'll just reform.

Love the reference! Indeed, we must find and destroy the phylactery in 1D10 days or it will come back with all its hit points!

 

[AncientGrimoire]

It's not absolutely insane to have a different interpretation on Loveless, no.

Loveless, by its very nature, should be open to different interpretations no?

It’s a play from antiquity, and the play we take a part in within Rebirth’s story is marketed as the “G Edition”, suggesting it’s one of many adaptations of the play.

I mean there is even a sidequest in Crisis Core about Loveless having these different study groups interpreting the text and what have you.

Much how centuries after the fact we still have many new ideas and reinterpretations of the works of William Shakespeare, so too should the Loveless play invite this as well.

Again wasn’t a huge part of Genesis’ entire character him trying to figure out the hidden and true meaning behind Loveless’ text?

 

[loxu]

I mean I've seen people say Loveless is definitely about Cloud and Aerith because the hero wield a sword and the heroine a staff. And when you point out that Zack also wield a sword they just go "no it's not about ZA"
And that's the thing about interpretation you can't state those things as facts. some people see Hollow as a love song from Cloud Pov towards Aerith, when I see it as a song about Cloud feelings of guilt and grief.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Here’s my thing though. You could have definitive evidence regarding who Loveless is about, or who Hollow is about, or who NPTK is about. But so what? What does that actually prove?

You can present all the evidence in the world as to why something could have been, but how does that measure against what actually does happen in the story? What difference does it make if I prove something is meant to have romantic undertones if the romance itself doesn’t have a desireable outcome?

So if the Ultimania comes out and the devs say “while not all of the scenes occur due to player choice, all of the feelings presented within them are all true” using that specific wording, would that kill the LTD?

For me, it’s simple. SE showed us what would happen at the highest possible affection between all of the characters and Cloud. They chose to have one thing happen between a pair that they could have easily done for the other. So I see it less as “which moment is more canon?” and more like “if this moment was canon, here’s how it would play out with each available character.” And the way that scene plays out speaks volumes about how SE views each relationship.

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, but she says this for Yuffie as well and he also doesn't deny it. Their dialogue doesn't change no matter which girl Cloud is hanging out with, at least if you're talking about the Rebirth scene in Chocobo Square.

Which is why I'm agreeing w/ you overall but I just think if the fandom has enough sense to realize they shouldn't take NPC Cloud/Yuffie misconceptions all that seriously, it's not that difficult to apply the same logic to CA. The "issue" is that they don't want to and it works as a nice confirmation bias for their preference. Again, I don't care about this particularly because shippers are gonna ship, but I don't consider NPCs misreading the group dynamics as an example of SE playing the fence because there's always going to be a difference in how the devs portray genuine romantic scenes vs. the generic, "haha Cloud is hanging out with a girl" gags, y'know?

Now I do think there ARE crumbs for this ship and that SE is playing the fence in a way (while still leaning to CT), I just don't think those side quests & NPC comments are it.

Does Clerith even get crumbs? Or do they pick up Crumbs left from the sandwich SE makes Clotis?
I mean this, yes there are romantic scenes. But ever since someone claimed to me that Clerith got more non-optional romantic scenes than Cloti in Rebirth I've been busting my head trying to think of a single one that WASN'T unambiguously arguably in service to either Tifa or Zack. I am sure there are some, but man are they rare.

The clearest example is the "Date" in kalm. I think this person counts that as a romantic scene for Aerith, but the complexities of the scene make it a lot more about Tifa and Cloud than about Cloud and Aerith.
For one the date is extremely short and insignificant, they literally just walk up some stairs and talk about Tifa, that matters because when Aerith then uses the date to make Tifa jealous this adds in an implication that the jealousy is unfounded. Tifa thinks the date is a lot more meaningful than it was (Like Cleriths), and classic story telling tropes then inform us that the focus of this event is not the feelings between Cloud and Aerith, but Tifa and Cloud, this is then doubled by Cloud being visibly uncomfortable with Aeriths intimacy the moment Tifa is near, and the fact that even the date itself revolved around talking about the relationship between Cloud and Tifa.
This COULD have been an Aerith romance moment, but arguably any one of these factors already pretty strongly points towards it being a mis-direction/red-herring/misunderstanding, where the real meat of the scene that the viewer is supposed to pick up on, is Cloud and Tifas pre-occupation with each other.

And after that....I honestly don't remember any non-optional scenes between just Cloud and Aerith until chapter 13, so when people say breadcrumbs it almost feels like even that is giving it too much credit.

 

[shady]

Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened with Witcher 3. A bunch of Triss Merigold fans strong armed CDPR and demanded equal treatment with Geralt's indisputable from-page-one love interest Yennefer. And the Triss fans got exactly what they wanted, a bunch of in-game, out-of-character recognition and support. Being cheered on by Ciri of all people? The fuuuug? With CDPR saying they hoped it would "stop the infighting" (that would have never have started had they followed the books, lmao).

They definitely shot themselves in the foot with this though. I played all 3 Witcher games before I even read a page of the books, which you could argue is my fault but quite honestly I wasn't such a big reader back then! Anyway like you spend 2 games practically main romancing and getting used to Triss that when you play Witcher 3 and all of a sudden Yennefer enters the picture I was like what the hell who is this and why is she just suddenly the main romance, it definitely confused me and the problem is like I said at this point I was basically attached to Triss so it didn't make much sense to me as to why i'd all of a sudden gravitate towards Yennefer. Of course after reading the books I was like ohhhhhh okay I get it but until then I don't think people can be blamed for CDPR basically pushing Triss on you for 2 games only for it to switch up in the third.