Yoru
Pro Adventurer
This is the way.Well, here I am as Zack/Aerith's shipper
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
tenabrus
Rookie Adventurer
My Romeo and Juliet defense sleeper agent status has activated.
Romeo and Juliet isn't a comedy in the Shakespearean sense, because it ends with death. It's structured like one for the first half of the play, but then the old grudges come to boil, characters start dying, and our young lovers take their lives tragically. It is true that Shakespeare was happy to (through the Friar) point out the wavering heart of Romeo and of young love, but it's also true that Shakespeare made an effort to portraying Romeo's love for Juliet to be more sincere and meaningful than for Rosaline. When Romeo talks about Rosaline, he cobs off of other poets to describe his feelings; when Romeo meets Juliet, he and Juliet's conversation composes a sonnet.
Ultimately what the story is about is declared right in the beginning of the play:
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-crossed lovers take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Doth with their death bury their parents’ strife.
Two young lovers die as a result of their parents' senseless grudge-holding. What should have been a joyful thing (a comedy ending in marriage) became a funeral (a tragedy ending in death). The lovers being quite ridiculous, having fallen in love over a short period of time, extremely emotional, etc, isn't anything out of the ordinary for Shakespeare's lovers. Shakespeare is not highlighting their folly, but their parents'.
...Now that being said... I don't really see Cloud and Aerith's story sharing anything with Romeo and Juliet in particular. I could wax on myself about why, but ultimately, Cloud surviving on happily (implied in the 97 FF7 and for sure in Advent Children) de facto makes it not a Romeo and Juliet love story. Our Romeo can't find peace and fulfillment when his Juliet dies, or it's not a Romeo & Juliet story.
Romeo and Juliet isn't a comedy in the Shakespearean sense, because it ends with death. It's structured like one for the first half of the play, but then the old grudges come to boil, characters start dying, and our young lovers take their lives tragically. It is true that Shakespeare was happy to (through the Friar) point out the wavering heart of Romeo and of young love, but it's also true that Shakespeare made an effort to portraying Romeo's love for Juliet to be more sincere and meaningful than for Rosaline. When Romeo talks about Rosaline, he cobs off of other poets to describe his feelings; when Romeo meets Juliet, he and Juliet's conversation composes a sonnet.
Ultimately what the story is about is declared right in the beginning of the play:
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-crossed lovers take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Doth with their death bury their parents’ strife.
Two young lovers die as a result of their parents' senseless grudge-holding. What should have been a joyful thing (a comedy ending in marriage) became a funeral (a tragedy ending in death). The lovers being quite ridiculous, having fallen in love over a short period of time, extremely emotional, etc, isn't anything out of the ordinary for Shakespeare's lovers. Shakespeare is not highlighting their folly, but their parents'.
...Now that being said... I don't really see Cloud and Aerith's story sharing anything with Romeo and Juliet in particular. I could wax on myself about why, but ultimately, Cloud surviving on happily (implied in the 97 FF7 and for sure in Advent Children) de facto makes it not a Romeo and Juliet love story. Our Romeo can't find peace and fulfillment when his Juliet dies, or it's not a Romeo & Juliet story.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
I used the RxJ reference to pay tribute to the old Clerith narrative since the end of FF7 and AC that basically say : Cloud is suicidal and just want to die to join Aerith.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Knowing what I know about several members of the old guard, this hypothesis is not without merit.
He never intended it to be thought of as a grand romance for the ages, I'm fairly certain.
Had either Romeo or Juliet been just a minute less hasty, their tragedy could have been avoided.
I think that's part of it, but not all. It's also about keeping yourself in check even in the midst of apparent tragedy and not rushing off the deep end in general.
As the resident big scary dragon of the LTD threads, you are welcome.Hi! I'm new (though I've been lurking since Remake--and trying to catch up since I finished Rebirth!).Wasn't planning to post, but the NPTK reveal just got me so excited I couldn't resist.
I really love how much depth and poignancy gets added to all the date sequences with this reveal. For example, Barret forcing Cloud to sway with him to the beat of the music -- originally it felt like just a cute moment, like a dorky dad trying to get an edgy teen to loosen up. But now it's all that plus Barret himself reflecting on and appreciating his relationship with Cloud, with Aerith, with all their friends on this stage and in the audience with them. And Barret's conversation on the gondola? Now inspired by Aerith's song, which reminded him of how precious their existing bonds are and easily people may pass out of your life to be met again.
It also makes me realize that we get a glimpse of Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge at the end because those are the characters that Cloud would think of meeting again at this point if the story. I'm so curious if everyone saw someone different... For example, I'm sure Aerith didn't see that trio. Did Aerith see Zack and Ifalna in particular? Maybe even Elmyra, given her line on Corel Mountain about her?
I also do like that Red's date mentions that he knows Aerith is in danger -- which suggests that even this memorywiped Aerith knows that she's in danger, even as she's writing and performing the song. So regardless of it playing in Chapter 12 or at the credits, Aerith can absolutely be singing it for Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc. and her fear of losing all these relationships she cherishes.
Sorry for the messy post, just very excited and need to get these thoughts out of my head so I can think about other things
hahaha. Also hope it's okay to post in LTD, the general thread is a little intimidating (and it feels like you folks appreciate all the character relationships anyway!).
More accurately, it's a story about a relationship where the two people involved are terrible together because both people involved are impetuous to their own demise.
Also this. The moment the "gonna fake a suicide, BTW, could you deliver this letter to my boyfriend so he knows it's fake and doesn't freak out thinking it's real, I'm gonna do it before confirming he knows the plan K thx later" it turns from a love story to a story about dumb stupid teenagers who really need more supervision. That's not me being a cranky old man, I thought they were dumbasses when I first read the thing.
Of course their parents and other relatives are also fucking morons for not watching over their children and creating the bullshit scenario they're in, but they're not the focus of the play.
tenabrus
Rookie Adventurer
No, no I do get that. I'm just defending the play's intention. I agree with you there's nothing particularly Romeo & Juliet about it. If nothing else, FFXV is absolutely going for the tragic star-crossed lovers angle and it ends with them actually being reunited in death, not smiling at your two dead friends who are also in love walking into the afterlife together while you stay to live out your life with your family.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
Zack/Aerith's sequence is more similar to Romeo/Juliet
Nojima himself describe them as "although I call it romance, they're still young and since I couldn’t spend too much time in-game depicting “how they came to love each other”, so I made it seem like they suddenly met and fell in love in the first sight"
1) Fall in love in the first sight, Zack has been attracted to Cissnei before meeting Aerith
2) Incident that make the guy separated away from the girl: Nibelheim
3) A third party help to deliver her letters and unite the two but fail: Tseng
4) Guy miss the chance Lawrence wanna help because of circumstances so he headed back to the city and the church where she's been despite the death threat; died before reuniting with her
5) The girl die later on with the same cause as the boy: ZA is brutally murdered, RJ is committing suicide
I want Zack/Aerith to be acknowledge as one of star-cross lovers story especially in the video game history. Everytime I tried to edit Wiki, the admin always revert it back and put Cloud/Aerith
Last edited:
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
It's funny, as I have reason to suspect that even the ending you get in the base version of the game isn't them reuniting in death but rather a depiction from the "true" ending depicted in the novel. And before that novel I figured it actually was them being dead/ new Astrals together.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I couldn't agree more. Strange that the Admins keep changing your edits. I think that once the 3rd game is released Z/A will be more appreciated.
its so critical to the narrative that to me even acknowledging the LTD dynamic means you have not played the 2nd disk or you refuse to even acknowledge anything that happens
This is literally the most critical part of FF7
Cloud acknowledging his faults and that he could never become something he was not (Soldier), but it never mattered to Tifa and he always enough for her. By saving him like this he was able to beat Sephiroth and then save the world. To contrast Sephiroth who could not acknowledge the revelations of what he found in Nibelheim and went off the deep end.
Yumelinh
Pro Adventurer
Regarding NPTK, based on the EN lyrics alone, I always assumed (wrongly) that it was about Zack/Cloud, even though many people have pointed out before that the song in JP had a much broader meaning. Personally, as beautiful as the song is and how magical the whole scene was, it turned out not to be very relevant in the end for the story, as it didn't add any new information (if it was about Aerith's feelings for Cloud, we already knew that) nor was it brought up as a plot point afterward. So, I was pretty okay to let CA fans have this. The same thing goes for the whole Hollow discussion in Remake, tbh lol.
That said, I do feel that knowing for a fact that this song is about Aerith's feelings for everyone she holds dear does make the scene even better. I know this might sound condescending coming from a CT, but truly, this is supposed to be Aerith's game! Her farewell to everyone and everything she holds dear... Having that song focus on this rather than just one person is so much better for her character and makes the whole scene much more heartbreaking. Especially because honestly, as much as Cloud and Aerith are dear to one another, when it comes to romance, they didn't really have that many meaningful moments in this game to justify her singing a love/farewell song on a stage all about him.
That said, I do feel that knowing for a fact that this song is about Aerith's feelings for everyone she holds dear does make the scene even better. I know this might sound condescending coming from a CT, but truly, this is supposed to be Aerith's game! Her farewell to everyone and everything she holds dear... Having that song focus on this rather than just one person is so much better for her character and makes the whole scene much more heartbreaking. Especially because honestly, as much as Cloud and Aerith are dear to one another, when it comes to romance, they didn't really have that many meaningful moments in this game to justify her singing a love/farewell song on a stage all about him.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
I never liked this narrative of Aerith world falling apart and hyper focusing on Cloud. I don't know, I may be biased. But it doesn't make too much sense. Like we see when we meet her (be it Zack or Cloud) she's kinda the neighborhood idol. Everybody love her and she loves and cares for everybody in return. Midgar is her home and she's kinda ok with the idea to stay there and never seek what's behind the wall. In the end, she has to flee the city and the call of adventure takes over, like her birth mom promised her.
We see during the game she thinks about Midgar or her mom waiting for her. That's Aerith for me. That song makes much more sense as a love letter to her "family" than just a guy she doesn't really know (and won't know in her mortal life) and who's kinda on the fence with her new best girlfriend.
I hate the narrative cause it literally take away from Tifas arc in the same game
It’s like subconsciously they want to take everything important Tifa has
Their whole argument is literally the point of Mideal and Tifa leaving the crew
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Oh it'll happen, although I thought Cloud was supposed to be the one whose into older women.
I just took this as more evidence that Zack is "the one" for Aerith. Elmyra to Cloud? LEAVE MY DAUGHTER THE FUCK ALONE! Elmyra to Zack? NEVER GO AWAY EVER AGAIN!!!!!!
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
To be fair, I think she said what she said to Cloud because of Zack.
But it really just seems it was more that Aerith’s heart was broken because he disappeared.
Of course she mentions that SOLDIERs traded a normal life for power so I dunno.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
It happened already....
The same people who ship Tifa and Barret. I think you see where this is going.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
Actually, I invented the ship on Feb 29 lmao, it's really just a joke
True, but apparently she took that stance right the fuck back immediately after meeting Zack XD And who could blame her, Zack has that son in law energy.
Regarding NPTK, ngl, I was pretty sure it was for Zack, then I was like, yeah, I guess it could be Aerith's song to express what she felt for Cloud, as it links up to the ending and the dream date, and the whole "like like", and the fact that they hold hands on their date, and hold hands at the end.
I think like the rest of you, I felt it was such odd framing for Cloud and Tifa to be holding hands and both looking so pleased at themselves during Aerith's big romantic power ballad to Cloud.
I did NOT expect Nojima to be all "I meant it to be written for ~ everybody ~ "
Perhaps now with the added context, the visual imagery of Cloud holding Tifa's hand at the Gold Saucer syncs up with the end of OG, where Tifa rests her head on Cloud's chest and they want to go and see Aerith - together. And it would make so much sense now that if he does repeat to Tifa in P3 to "Lets go meet her" line if the interpretation is that she knew she was dying, and wanted to one day reunite/ meet all of them again.
Also, I know everyone is happy, it gives Aerith more depth yadda, yadda, she loves her friends etc. etc. - it's all good - but in retrospect can we just talk about how...incredibly baity the marketing for Rebirth was starting from the TGA trailer? The fall-and-almost-kiss, the "love song" trailer that they edited interspersed with close-ups of Cloud's face gazing in awe at Aerith (with her suddenly impressive pipes), the scenes of them in the final chapter holding hands in the social media count down teasers.
I don't "ship" CA, but I think if I were invested in the relationship and it's progress from Remake, and I was holding on to the developer interviews that "both girls will be equal". I'd feel that they really pulled the rug out from under me. I can....sort of understand why people shipping Cloud/Aerith might be displeased with the devs.
I think like the rest of you, I felt it was such odd framing for Cloud and Tifa to be holding hands and both looking so pleased at themselves during Aerith's big romantic power ballad to Cloud.
I did NOT expect Nojima to be all "I meant it to be written for ~ everybody ~ "
Perhaps now with the added context, the visual imagery of Cloud holding Tifa's hand at the Gold Saucer syncs up with the end of OG, where Tifa rests her head on Cloud's chest and they want to go and see Aerith - together. And it would make so much sense now that if he does repeat to Tifa in P3 to "Lets go meet her" line if the interpretation is that she knew she was dying, and wanted to one day reunite/ meet all of them again.
Also, I know everyone is happy, it gives Aerith more depth yadda, yadda, she loves her friends etc. etc. - it's all good - but in retrospect can we just talk about how...incredibly baity the marketing for Rebirth was starting from the TGA trailer? The fall-and-almost-kiss, the "love song" trailer that they edited interspersed with close-ups of Cloud's face gazing in awe at Aerith (with her suddenly impressive pipes), the scenes of them in the final chapter holding hands in the social media count down teasers.
I don't "ship" CA, but I think if I were invested in the relationship and it's progress from Remake, and I was holding on to the developer interviews that "both girls will be equal". I'd feel that they really pulled the rug out from under me. I can....sort of understand why people shipping Cloud/Aerith might be displeased with the devs.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
It was good for marketing but I agree it was mean to the CA fans. Although, some of them were hella smug so it’s karma for the more extreme ones. However, I do feel for the general CA fans.
Although, I will saw a lot of trailers tend to be baity in order to sell copies, it’s not exclusive to FF. But yes, it was still mean and they probably shouldn’t have done it.
But in its defense, the song is the theme for the whole game and the trailer only had two CA moments in it besides that. I definitely think it seemed more CA at the time, but watching it back. It’s only those two moments, both occurring in the gondola.
Trailer also has some Zerith.
Although, I will saw a lot of trailers tend to be baity in order to sell copies, it’s not exclusive to FF. But yes, it was still mean and they probably shouldn’t have done it.
But in its defense, the song is the theme for the whole game and the trailer only had two CA moments in it besides that. I definitely think it seemed more CA at the time, but watching it back. It’s only those two moments, both occurring in the gondola.
Trailer also has some Zerith.
the marketing was stupid for sure. Its kinda weird they focused the resolution scene in Remake about 'dont fall in love with me' but its not really referenced at all and they did a complete bait and switch with the Game Awards trailer as well.
Kinda curious if it was all supposed to have a meta meaning or they just did it cause lol
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
From what I hear, and this could actually be untrue. They weren’t sure if they were gonna be greenlit to go past Part 1. So they included stuff in it that could be a way to “end” it with Part 1 by giving both shippers things and saying the Unknown Journey will continue. That way, if there wasn’t a Part 2 most of the fans would have “gotten their fix”, I guess.
And an unknown journey could at least leave people their imaginations.
wow I never knew that man, that is fascinating. Does explain the mini resolution scenes that could just be stand ins. Damn