SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
The LTD still won’t end even with that.

A lot of the OG is not optional and it has still continued to this day. The Compilation also implies various things that are largely ignored to this day.

I’d say it will continue well past Part 3.
I think though with the HD graphics and voice acting it will be different it's easy to dismiss polygons but that Gongaga bedroom sequence you just can't deny it without looking stupid. So if the lifestream is as intimate as I'm thinking then more people will see. What really matters is what the dynamic is like between them after those scenes and even the ending especially if it skips to post AC
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I think though with the HD graphics and voice acting it will be different it's easy to dismiss polygons but that Gongaga bedroom sequence you just can't deny it without looking stupid. So if the lifestream is as intimate as I'm thinking then more people will see. What really matters is what the dynamic is like between them after those scenes and even the ending especially if it skips to post AC
I'm sorry to report to you that's exactly what's happening lmao. They're dismissing the Gongaga bedroom 100%
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think though with the HD graphics and voice acting it will be different it's easy to dismiss polygons but that Gongaga bedroom sequence you just can't deny it without looking stupid. So if the lifestream is as intimate as I'm thinking then more people will see. What really matters is what the dynamic is like between them after those scenes and even the ending especially if it skips to post AC
Well, I suppose time will tell. The cynic in me feels that the LTD will just be something that will exist in the fandom. To some degree.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Well, I suppose time will tell. The cynic in me feels that the LTD will just be something that will exist in the fandom. To some degree.
There isn't anyway to end it with the people who have denied it for 27 years because they refused to accept stuff but for general public I think part 3 will end it between neutrals and have the relationships at the end be Zerith and Cloti. I really just want the lifestream sequence to be understood and for people to realise Cloud is a character not a persona like protagonist where we decide his feelings. Which is what the date scenes should have shown people since why make them different in the first place if he was all player choice.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
I'm sorry to report to you that's exactly what's happening lmao. They're dismissing the Gongaga bedroom 100%
Expecting anything from the extremists will have us here another 27 years XD just gotta ignore people who try to dismiss obvious stuff.
 

overheat28

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Overheat
Crisis Core is now almost 17 years old. That's no small amount of time, imo. It was also remastered and released again in 2022. At this point if you haven't made peace with Zack/Aerith it's more on the individual, I feel.

I just have a hard time imagining with all the setup in Rebirth that it will end with anything besides Cloti and Zerith. Lifestream or some other way, Zack and Aerith will bow out together. That end scene with Zack in the church sealed it for me.
 

overheat28

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Overheat
If it doesn’t, then it would be especially weird since Tifa and Zack would basically end the game with unrequited feelings.

This isn’t an actual argument I’m positing but… having a CT/ZA ending is less messy just from that POV.
Yes, I agree. It's very messy otherwise.

And in the case of Zack, it denies him the resolution to his entire character arc in Rebirth (small as it was). I think it well established now that the man's only here for Aerith.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Yes, I agree. It's very messy otherwise.

And in the case of Zack, it denies him the resolution to his entire character arc in Rebirth (small as it was). I think it well established now that the man's only here for Aerith.
To be fair, I do think he genuinely cares for Cloud. But reuniting with Aerith has definitely been his goal for the longest time.
 

tenabrus

Rookie Adventurer
If it doesn’t, then it would be especially weird since Tifa and Zack would basically end the game with unrequited feelings.

This isn’t an actual argument I’m positing but… having a CT/ZA ending is less messy just from that POV.
Yeah, I feel like if they were going to go for CA, they would have taken the time by now to downplay the "rivals" more. Don't have Aerith say still loves Zack (while being unable to say she loves Cloud). Don't have Cloud say in the GS date he reciprocates Tifa's feelings and kiss her (while not reciprocating Aerith's and not kissing her).

They wouldn't have had to straight up friendzone Zack or Tifa to achieve this either, just downplay a bit. Aerith could have said "I don't know" when talking about whether she loves Zack, Cloud could have remained gently oblivious like the OG and just said nice things to Tifa. That would have kept the LTD alive the way CAs say the only reason they did the kiss was supposed to have done, but without emphasizing Zack and Tifa as love interests to set the stage for their gracious acceptance of being the losing party.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I feel like if they were going to go for CA, they would have taken the time by now to downplay the "rivals" more. Don't have Aerith say still loves Zack (while being unable to say she loves Cloud). Don't have Cloud say in the GS date he reciprocates Tifa's feelings and kiss her (while not reciprocating Aerith's and not kissing her).

They wouldn't have had to straight up friendzone Zack or Tifa to achieve this either, just downplay a bit. Aerith could have said "I don't know" when talking about whether she loves Zack, Cloud could have remained gently oblivious like the OG and just said nice things to Tifa. That would have kept the LTD alive the way CAs say the only reason they did the kiss was supposed to have done, but without emphasizing Zack and Tifa as love interests to set the stage for their gracious acceptance of being the losing party.
They probably wouldn’t have brought Zack back in the first place. If what they say about using him to explore the Lifestream is true… they could have just as easily done that with another character. Like Biggs for example.

They specifically chose to bring Zack back and they specifically made it clear he wants to reunite with Aerith again.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Isn't it too obvious tho ? Don't get me wrong, I think the pairing is pretty clear now and it will be difficult going back to the remake statut quo. They may give something for Clerith (like they did in Rebirth, ambiguous stuff that let them imagine what they want)

I think Cloti is a given if we follow OG. But they may go with the bittersweet ending with Zerith. I don't know.

It's like too good to be true kind of things ? I don't know if you see what I mean
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Isn't it too obvious tho ? Don't get me wrong, I think the pairing is pretty clear now and it will be difficult going back to the remake statut quo. They may give something for Clerith (like they did in Rebirth, ambiguous stuff that let them imagine what they want)

I think Cloti is a given if we follow OG. But they may got with the bittersweet ending with Zerith. I don't know.

It's like too good to be true kind of things ? I don't know if you see what I mean
I definitely think it will be a “reunion in death” sort of thing with Zerith, yeah. And it will be bittersweet in that capacity. But I don’t think it will be that Zerith doesn’t get a resolution.

They’ll be in the Lifestream together and like AC, the will walk off together in the end.
 

overheat28

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Overheat
Isn't it too obvious tho ? Don't get me wrong, I think the pairing is pretty clear now and it will be difficult going back to the remake statut quo. They may give something for Clerith (like they did in Rebirth, ambiguous stuff that let them imagine what they want)

I think Cloti is a given if we follow OG. But they may got with the bittersweet ending with Zerith. I don't know.

It's like too good to be true kind of things ? I don't know if you see what I mean
I dearly hope this isn't what happens. The fandom spends too much time dumping on Zack already for the writers to get their choice kicks in as well. Man needs a break. He's already dead, what more can you possibly do to him.
 

insanehobbit

Pro Adventurer
Sephiroth is a fascinating villain because he is one who ultimately fails due to his inability to understand the complexities of the human heart (or I guess you could say he underestimates the power of love, lmao.) He spends almost the entirety of Rebirth trying to drive a wedge between Cloud and Tifa, but ironically, the one time he seems to succeed is the one time he hadn't set out to do so.

He seems to know Cloud quite well in that he understands that Cloud's greatest weakness is his love for Tifa and his desire to protect her. That's why he's first able to control him in Gongaga, when Cloud in his Mako poisoned state rushes up to help her. But what Sephiroth doesn't understand and underestimates is Tifa's love for Cloud. This is a Tifa who doesn't love Cloud because he's a hero or her protector, but for who he truly is.

Tifa sees Cloud on a murderous rampage, she sees him trying to kill her, and instead of becoming terrified, instead of distancing herself from him, she commits to protecting him and stays by his side closer than ever. Even in the Temple of the Ancients, when Cloud is again on a rampage, and lashing out, she is constantly reaching out to him, putting her body on the line even when he pushes her away. Because she knows that this isn't Cloud. This is Cloud acting under Sephiroth's influence. The real Cloud is still there, even as it becomes harder and harder to reach him.

At the Forgotten Capital, I don't think Sephiroth is thinking about Tifa at all. His primary goal is to kill Aerith/stop her from calling Holy. His secondary goal is to fuck with Cloud and taunt him about his weakness/inability to save anyone like he did during his ToTA trial. (Also, Sephiroth is not the most subtle villain in the world, lol. If Tifa was part of his plan here, he would let us know.)

Cloud's delusion that he saved Aerith/that Aerith is still alive is one of his own making, and that's why it affects Tifa so much. The violence she can explain away, that's clearly Sephiroth, but this, this absence of grief, this lack of kindness, this she cannot. He is no longer the boy she grew up with. He is a stranger.

Cloud's mental state at the end of the game may come as a shock to the player, but I don't think that's the case for the rest of the party. Barret and Red have been talking about how weird he's acting as early as Ch. 3 and again in Ch. 11. Cloud being delusional is just par for the course for them. But with Tifa, it's different. She's spent the entire game trying to pull him back from the abyss, but now she can't speak to him. She can hardly even stand to look at him.

This wasn't part of Sephiroth's plan. Cloud did all the work for him himself. Ironically, it's when Sephiroth tries to press the issue again at the Northern Crater that it completely backfires.

But this also totally tracks with Cloud and Tifa's characters. The greatest obstacle between them has never been an external actor like Sephiroth, it's always been Cloud's internal conflict: his weakness/inferiority complex that made him so susceptible to the Jenova cells' influence, that allows him to create his own illusory world, all because he couldn't believe that Tifa could love him for who he truly is. It's only once they resolve this that all the other pieces fall into place.
 

Someonesbunny

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Rabbit
@Someonesbunny

I think the whole state of LTD is actually more complicated and nuanced nowadays than it ever was. I see what you are saying but I also am not sure if these camps apply to everyone like they did a decade ago. Because...I will use myself as an example...while I do think as a CA who accepts CT endgame and just takes whatever the writer says as canon... And that might on the surface land me in the CT camp. There is like 50% of stuff the CT camp believes that I don't agree with. Especially stuff about Aerith. So do I really fit in that camp?

Then the opposite is true I'm a CA and there are things I would say would put me in the CA camp such as believing in the potential of CA romance, not seeing them as platonic completely but then there is like 50% of stuff the CA camp believes that I definitely don't. Especially stuff about Ultimanias and Tifa.

So I don't really fit that camp either. But I'm not an outsider.

What am I? Lol

And that's the thing there are a lot of people in the LTD new fans especially who aren't neutral but where exactly do they fall? It's a bit more complicated because there are now many different viewpoints and maybe even more sides than we think. More new material has brought in new fans and more variety in perspectives.

That's why I say extremists have a spotlight on them but in general they don't exactly represent the majority which I believe is a lot more nuanced.

And why I say LTD discussion shouldn't really be based on them. The indicator to the end should also not be when the extremists concede. Because honestly snow in July will be more likely.

I think its more when we reach a general consensus that represents the majority, a dialogue that the majority of both sides (not the extremists of either) doesn't argue against. I believe that's when it will truly "end".

Honestly, I think a lot of people have just decided to disregard the question entirely and employ a sort of "fire in all directions so I don't have to bother aiming" sort of strategy since a lot of the debaters really may have lost sight of the objective of the discussion. I think it's just the fact that back in the day, people compiled evidence to argue their side of the question but more and more people are compiling evidence against the opposing argument instead of compiling evidence for their own. That said, this is by no means a new development, I still remember this little gem.

It also looks like scene deconstruction is the new argumentation meta so we're ascribing meaning to the component parts in a moment instead of the context in whole (and this is probably in part due to the fact that we're still waiting on a conclusion to the story so nothing can quite be taken as a whole, but given that we have more and more supplemental materials, I still hold that we can still get pretty close to what to me is a very clear answer).

I think that the argument that is going to win this is the side that can concede a great number of assumptions and still clearly remain unthreatened in terms of what it means for canonicity. But we would have to find a way to return to the fundamental question.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I dearly hope this isn't what happens. The fandom spends too much time dumping on Zack already for the writers to get their choice kicks in as well. Man needs a break. He's already dead, what more can you possibly do to him.
They're gonna reenact Final Fantasy X ending with Zack and Aerith

You read it here first. :neo:
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
Isn't it too obvious tho ? Don't get me wrong, I think the pairing is pretty clear now and it will be difficult going back to the remake statut quo. They may give something for Clerith (like they did in Rebirth, ambiguous stuff that let them imagine what they want)

I think Cloti is a given if we follow OG. But they may go with the bittersweet ending with Zerith. I don't know.

It's like too good to be true kind of things ? I don't know if you see what I mean

I hear what you're saying but tbh what else could they change

this is the good ending now supposedly
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
How though? They’re both “dead”. FFX is only one of them “dying.”
Normal human beings can't retain their form in the Lifestream. They need to vanish. Aerith being a Cetra is a special case. Even more when Sephiroth is around. But if we follow the lifestream lore, Zack has to go
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Normal human beings can't retain their form in the Lifestream. They need to vanish. Aerith being a Cetra is a special case. Even more when Sephiroth is around. But if we follow the lifestream lore, Zack has to go
Probably eventually yeah, but he can probably stick around for a little while with Aerith’s help.

Although again, Aerith will probably choose to dissolve eventually as well.

Regardless, I think the actual point is that he will get a good send-off. One that does not involve “cucking” him for lack of a better word.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Probably eventually yeah, but he can probably stick around for a little while with Aerith’s help.

Although again, Aerith will probably choose to dissolve eventually as well.
They can both dissolve if at the end of Part 3 Jenova/Sephi is not around anymore. And here is the bittersweet ending. They're together but not for long. And it keeps the "loss and mourn" meta of FF7
 
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