imach0c0
Pro Adventurer
What is that argument about?
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
So, when Advent Children released, there was a book that released along with it, called Reunion Files. It was full of character notes and comments on the plot and character, including many direct quotes from Nomura and Nojima. These were in Japanese and in English. One of these from Nomura regarding Tifa reads in English "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle."
A common Clerith argument back in the day was that this was saying she was "a sweetheart" a nice person, that it was describing her personality, despite this making zero sense if you look at the japanese because Koibito literally cannot mean "a nice person," because "A mother" and "A close ally in battle" are not personality traits, and because the Japanese word for "dimensions to [her] character" literally translates as positions, as in the positions she holds with regards to other characters.
This is what lead to the bizarre arguments about Koibito having a different, less romantic meaning when written in Kanji (it does not, Kanji literally help disambiguate meaning in written text by providing the meaning for many words) and many other copes. This argument was being resoundly mocked almost immediately after it was made and had been all but abandoned by like 2008, even? So this person is using arguments that everyone has known to avoid for over fifteen years, while also very blatantly using motte and bailey tactics to push Clerith.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Now that you mention this, I remember omg this is hysterical that in 2024 they still resort to that!
Someone calling her Aeris is always a red flag for me. I always think "well, you're not even willing to accept that her name is not what you thought it was, if you're that anal about not accepting reality why should I trust any thing you say?"
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Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Even in FF2 there was one comment at the end of the game to hint at Maria's feelings for Firion. And what do you know, they apparently become a couple in a novelisation.
I think it's so funny because Aeris isn't her "real name" either. It's Earisu. At least Dragon Ball fan ficcers insist on writing Kakarot as Kakarotto, lol. Edit: It's not an exact equivalent but it's a bit like insisting on calling Tapeta from BOF2 Jean.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Tell me you don't accept FF7 Compilation without telling me you don't accept FF7 Compilation.
UItimate red flag.
Legit "I prefer to use bad translated material"
Are these the same people who also unironically claim to be OG purists? Rejecting CC’s expanded characterization of Aerith and Zack , for example? Because my brain always freezes at that absurd combo of positions.
ViolaaFox
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Viola A. Fox
Have people ever questioned Squal x Rinoa? As Rinoa was into Seifer before. Because I always had the impression that it's just CT that gets over overanalysed.
It gives me "I'm not like the average FFVII fan" vibes. They love the OG so much that they are even willing to honor the translation mistakes after so many years. Isn't that wonderful?
Fr I wouldn't be suprised if it had something to do with being recognised as OG player.
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The most I’ve seen people say about SquallxRinoa is that it’s a young love with less to justify it ( though I think being willing to leap into the vacuum of space to save her says more than it gets credit for )… which is bizarre because Cloud and Aerith is even faster if I’m remembering the timeline of FF8 correctly?
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
I'm still amused and boggled at it.
Exactly. It indicates a refusal to listen. The fact that the FF fanwiki still uses Aeris when referring to the OG and nowhere else is indicative of a lot of these people being around, still.
At least Jean is still part of his full very long name. If you want to use a BOF2 example, there's insisting that Katt and Bleu are their names, not Rinpu and Deis.
This person isn't rejecting the compilation, but they are definitely refusing to consider alternate viewpoints. They keep repeating "The devs made everything up to interpretation" while being very not-subtle about thinking it's not that way at all.
I don't know about that in this case, but it definitely feels like this person is sourcing their arguments from Clerith.com or it's modern equivalent.
Yeah, the default name value being different from the name screen value is interesting. As is her name being Aerith in the demo. Making her "Aeris" was an almost last minute decision.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
I don't actually know what the general stance towards Squall and Rinoa is, lol. I am vaguely aware that Snow/Serah is hated and apparently Serah had "more chemistry" with that guy from the second game, I guess?
As an aside, I think part of the reason for "OG purism" is the hyperfixation on the OG and the OG having enough room for interpretation to allow for projection too. In my experience, people tend to hyperfixate on things they can read whatever they want into.
I have been corrected. Wrong example then, lol. But BOF had some funny name changes anyway. Like, Miria/Tyr. Unless the Tyr had a reason I'm not aware of?
But also, what, Katt's original name was Rinpu?
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Yes. Yes they are lol
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Funny you talk about Serah because one of the Clerith's argument is that Cloud is in love with Aerith because he takes her head in his arms when she dies at the end of Rebirth.
And Noel (the dude from FFXIII-2) does exactly the same thing with Serah when they were never a thing to begin with. She's married with Snow and never shows any sign of this love for him changing.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Yeah, I honestly don't get this particular argument because I just keep coming back to the question of what's an acceptable level of grief for someone you love but aren't in love with?
Wasn't the framing also similar to -- wait, what was his name again -- Sonon and his sister?
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Cloud and Aerith framing is 1:1 to Sonon and Melphie
I was like "... Hm. This looks familiar. Why is that?" and then I went to watch the Sonon scene again and yeah lol
ViolaaFox
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Viola A. Fox
Omgg, I remember someone on Twitter doing an comparison of the Aerith/Cloud and Serah/Noel scene and why it's not romantic at all. And I fully agree.
It seems that according to some people, Cloud shouldn't have shown any interaction with Aerith to avoid romanticising the scene. Imagine a scene where she dies and Cloud just walks away....
It just wouldn't work.
ViolaaFox
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Viola A. Fox
Is this about the scene in OG were Zack is saying something about having several girlfriends?
Sacky
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- SackyBoy
Something about the truck scene and his goal not being to get back to Aerith just to use her house
It’s frustrating because that’s one of the reasons I actually like Cloud as a character. He cares a lot, and that’s why he feels to need to cover it in his psychosis.
I completely missed this comparison so good on everyone who spotted it!
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
OG purism doesn't really... excuse the more ardent shipping insanity. The natural conclusion to these characters has always been "Cloud and Tifa end up together in a post game world" or "everyone is dead anyway." Those are the only material realities that are plausible and make sense for these characters.
If it's the latter, then no one is having a relationship with anyone. They're all intermingling in some weird polycule of mishmashed personhood. Seriously though, what does romantic preference even matter at that point? Everyone is just lifestream goo. The universe does a lot of reflection on death, but it's still pretty frank about what it is. We and the characters are meant to understand that there is finality to death, because life is a precious thing that needs to be cherished.
Anything to suggest C/A only really has merit in like an AU sense. Which I mean like... I guess the OG kinda leads the audience to consider? But I think the game is looking at much bigger things when it does. It's asking the audience if we can collectively imagine a better world. Perhaps in that world, loss can have meaning beyond the empty feeling of grief. Maybe that world feels a lot less doomed than the one you're living in, and maybe that means you can better come to terms with things like death and grief.
Even if you argue that's inclusive of some romantic look on C/A (to which I'd probably shrug and say, yeah sure, if you want), it's not exactly the biggest takeaway. I don't think the story is posing these kinds of questions to make people wonder about how bad Cloud wants to smash his maybe-would-be-at-one-time girlfriend. I really don't think that this aspect of the story is for the expressed purpose of building some grand romantic narrative between Cloud and Aerith where their love transcends time and space. The story simply is not really about that. The OG is intentionally open ended for a reason, and I reject that those reasons have anything to do with who ends up with who.
If it's the latter, then no one is having a relationship with anyone. They're all intermingling in some weird polycule of mishmashed personhood. Seriously though, what does romantic preference even matter at that point? Everyone is just lifestream goo. The universe does a lot of reflection on death, but it's still pretty frank about what it is. We and the characters are meant to understand that there is finality to death, because life is a precious thing that needs to be cherished.
Anything to suggest C/A only really has merit in like an AU sense. Which I mean like... I guess the OG kinda leads the audience to consider? But I think the game is looking at much bigger things when it does. It's asking the audience if we can collectively imagine a better world. Perhaps in that world, loss can have meaning beyond the empty feeling of grief. Maybe that world feels a lot less doomed than the one you're living in, and maybe that means you can better come to terms with things like death and grief.
Even if you argue that's inclusive of some romantic look on C/A (to which I'd probably shrug and say, yeah sure, if you want), it's not exactly the biggest takeaway. I don't think the story is posing these kinds of questions to make people wonder about how bad Cloud wants to smash his maybe-would-be-at-one-time girlfriend. I really don't think that this aspect of the story is for the expressed purpose of building some grand romantic narrative between Cloud and Aerith where their love transcends time and space. The story simply is not really about that. The OG is intentionally open ended for a reason, and I reject that those reasons have anything to do with who ends up with who.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
The thing with FFXIII was
Noel got his Yeul and Caius got his Yeul and the Yeuls that wanted to stay with Caius did, and everybody got some sort of ending
Sacky
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- SackyBoy
What does this person mean here Aerith picked Denzel I remember Cloud thinking Aerith led him to them. The way they say this though speaks as if she specifically chose Denzel to be Their son? And Dirge mentioned them in the ultimania Tifa still living together after confirming feelings no?
Doesn’t Cloud ( and Tifa btw ) think Aerith had a hand in him finding Denzel because he finds the kid at the church?
I mean, he’s not some miraculous conception, he has biological parents ( who resemble two people btw ) so reading too deep into that is both weird and doesn’t paint Aerith in the best light ( aka she’d be crazy )