Here would be my point: can you make the argument in good faith that he’s NOT pining over Aerith? Why keep it so overly vague? The fact that Cloud was actually happy in his situation with Tifa and the kids now feels so empty because Nojima and co went out of their way to show all the low points in their relationship and left all the high points to the viewer’s imagination. I’m sorry, but Cloud is a poor partner in ACC, and him even potentially pining for Aerith adds a whole new layer to the shit cake.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I agree that ACC didn’t depict things well.
However, I do not think he’s pining after Aerith. It doesn’t really make much sense in context. And I don’t believe it’s vague either…. that is essentially the reason he left. I do think he feels guilty and I think you can twist that to mean he’s pining after Aerith but nothing points to that. He feels guilty, not just for her but for Zack as well. You can see this when he fixes the Buster Sword grave and speaks about being unsure if he could even live for Zack. But then he affirms he can by stating he is Zack’s living legacy at the end.
And he affirms that he’s all good now… to Aerith at the end too. He’s not alone anymore so he doesn’t need to feel guilty. He has realized that.
I also agree the devs are a bit wishy washy about things because they don’t want to anger either side. But if Rebirth is any indication, I believe they’ve chosen to end this debate.
We agree that they didn’t depict things well, at least. Here’s my onus then: if Cloud is canonically wavering between T and A, does that ever change after her death? Why would it change, if the guilt of her dying fucks with his life well after she passed? Why is he specifically needing a forgiveness from her if that isn’t the case? He talks to her and Zack, but it’s with her that he gets melodramatic. I mean shit, go forward all the way to Rebirth. Aerith dies, and Mr. Hardass turns on the waterworks. He doesn’t apologize to Tifa after he tries to kill her.
Reaper3Delta
Pro Adventurer
Cloud's Survivor's Guilt for Aerith hit him harder not because he loved her romantically, but because he failed to save her while he was under Jenova/Sephiroth's control, plus Denzel's Geostigma and him getting it too made him doubt himself. Remember Cloud is plagued with mental weaknesses all his life and he did what he always did; running from his problems. Until Tifa lectured him some "Tough Love" he decided to face his problems. He asked Aerith for forgiveness because he blamed himself for what happened to her. Cloud kinda apologize to Tifa when opening himself to her in Gongaga.
You see, here’s the thing: I don’t know if we know that for a fact anymore. A great deal of the writing in the Case of Tifa and in AC involves the rockiness in their relationship. The fighting, Tifa’s insecurity, how generally closed off Cloud is with her with everything to point it feels like he’s callous. The scene where he brushes her off when she asks if he loves her, it feels like he plays dumb and then brushes her off at the end. Or the scene where he goes to the FC to take flowers for Aerith’s grave without telling her. Or when he brushes her off again to drink by himself. I understand not everyone can be a dotting partner, but now, I feel like he’s outright inconsiderate.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I mean, AC takes the stance that the way Cloud is acting is WRONG. And that he lets go by the end.
And he confirms in TKAA that the four of them have gone back to being a family again.
I understand your perspective but I don’t particularly agree with it. That’s kind of the issue with AC though. Cloud is presented as being wrong up until he finally goes to the Forgotten City, which he does after Tifa points out why he’s wrong.
He also says he wants to be “forgiven”. Which is just confirmation it is guilt that is eating up at him. Which doesn’t necessarily equate to him pining after a dead woman. Especially since he clearly feels the same way about Zack.
And he confirms in TKAA that the four of them have gone back to being a family again.
I understand your perspective but I don’t particularly agree with it. That’s kind of the issue with AC though. Cloud is presented as being wrong up until he finally goes to the Forgotten City, which he does after Tifa points out why he’s wrong.
He also says he wants to be “forgiven”. Which is just confirmation it is guilt that is eating up at him. Which doesn’t necessarily equate to him pining after a dead woman. Especially since he clearly feels the same way about Zack.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Especially if you couple it with the quote (paraphrased): "The player likes Aerith but because of the story he's stuck with Tifa".
To be honest, I think the reason why the movie has Cloud feeling guilty over Aerith's death is so the movie could even have Aerith in it, lol. And, well, that was where their relationship ended in the game: her dying right in front of his face, after he'd tried to kill her himself (under Sephiroth's control). And the movie kind of deified her, I think, into this Mother Goddess type of character which is why the focus is "I want to be forgiven" if I still recall correctly. Not even "I want you to forgive me". Just "I want to be forgiven".
Which gets me to the second point. If the movie was really about Cloud's unresolved romantic feelings for Aerith then you don't have him call her mom, lmao. While Aerith is hanging around with her (ex)-boyfriend and joking that he's too big to adopt. And then leaves with him while the last shot of the two of them, symbolically, is Zack's sword in Aerith's church and her flowers on his grave.
Like, that's the plain surface reading that the average watcher gets out of it. Then you get into shipping which kind of tends to hyperfocus on individual details and go over them with a microscope.
Nancy
Pro Adventurer
Looks like the same could be said about Zack, lol. The devs didn't want ppl to think Cloud is only guilty about Aerith so they put Zack in there too.
MissMDusk
Lv. 25 Adventurer
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- Mari
My only stance for the ACC Cloud "pining" after Aerith after she's dead is... Why didn't he just... Jump off a roof? I'm serious, no one was stopping him from doing it. If he really felt all "suicidal" and "pining" after her, he might as well...
And no I'm not advocating for him to do it at all. I'm just saying that if this is all what's he's feeling for the (max, 7-10) days he left Tifa and the kids, imo it doesn't make sense Cloud wouldn't just do it? It's why it makes more sense that he feels more helpless about Denzel, himself, and guilt over Aerith... And Zack to be honest.
However, I must say that my confidence in CT is slightly wavering the more I wait for P3. Not about whether they'll confirm CT, I mean they're pretty much confirmed anyway, but how much they'll leave to interpretation about CA.
At least I found out that it was Nojima who created the scenarios around the dates, so the main scenario writer wanted that kiss to be implemented
And no I'm not advocating for him to do it at all. I'm just saying that if this is all what's he's feeling for the (max, 7-10) days he left Tifa and the kids, imo it doesn't make sense Cloud wouldn't just do it? It's why it makes more sense that he feels more helpless about Denzel, himself, and guilt over Aerith... And Zack to be honest.
However, I must say that my confidence in CT is slightly wavering the more I wait for P3. Not about whether they'll confirm CT, I mean they're pretty much confirmed anyway, but how much they'll leave to interpretation about CA.
At least I found out that it was Nojima who created the scenarios around the dates, so the main scenario writer wanted that kiss to be implemented
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
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- Rye
Considering that pesky wrench, Zack, is in the story and his singular motivation is to reunite with Aerith, I honestly can't imagine the devs adding anything ambiguous to Cloud and Aerith's relationship at least? Will they have Cloud look at the camera and go "I never had romantic feelings for Aerith"? Probably not, lol. Oh, wait. They already had him call her 'nakama' so I guess that's the equivalent, lol.
MissMDusk
Lv. 25 Adventurer
- AKA
- Mari
Lol yes, though the English version decided to remove that part... Wonder why...
And everytime I see Cloud's face when he clearly understood what Aerith was getting at in that dream date, and then deflected as far as I'm concerned... Yeah it feels like a case closed situation.
But then I look at the whole game and I'm just like... Maybe?? But if there's even a weird maybe, I feel the story falls flat on its face. For me personally, if Cloud did develop feelings for Aerith that were equally as strong as his for Tifa, then the reason for his whole identity crisis doesn't work. But that's just me.
Reaper3Delta
Pro Adventurer
TBH a lot have changed since ACC , books and a lot of of Dev quotes from 10-15-27 years ago. The Remake saga counting CCR is retconning a lot of the story of FF7. When Advent Children released in 2004-2005 there was no FF7 Compilation at the time, now 2024 there is one. The Dev said that Remake project leaves little or no room for interpretation. ACC needs to be updated to the Remake changes.
Nancy
Pro Adventurer
The English change and remove a lot so it isn't really a surprise hahaha
I think if Cloud's feelings for Aerith is as strong as his feelings for Tifa he would have made a move or confirm that he does feel the same way instead of acting like he's clueless to what she is saying
Reaper3Delta
Pro Adventurer
Exactly, plenty opportunities in those 1K Dates and... nothing. Cloud is not that dense as people think. With Tifa, He knew what she meant at once and wasted no time. He understood what Aerith was talking about too and reflected her advances. Cloud was using a maxed Reflect Materia while hanging with Aerith LoL.
One wouldn't think she were dead considering the amount of presence that she gets. Every possible scene they could think of, she gets shoe horned in.
As to your second point, I can see that, but then again: why all the melodrama when Aerith is on screen? That one scene where they're standing back to back that they just HAD to reference in Rebirth stands out. Or in that Bahamut jump where they made extra sure to include her in as well.
I went back to see if I remembered this quote correctly:
With the added context of the "wavering", I think I'm finding myself asking if the correct read here is that Cloud is genuinely heartless and cruel. I know that a lot of people argue that Cloud would never be written to be a bad person, but how is it that devs INSIST that the viewers form their own opinions on the characters while at the same time creating enough vagueness to where it is beyond easy to come off with the wrong impression? Or are there no wrong impressions?
MelodicEnigma
Pro Adventurer
Proposed past context of romanticism ≠ pining, if said character (or person) is feeling something from their death. It would be a hard hill to say that this was vague considering what has been expressed and said in all supporting material.
I'd say it's easily a good faith argument, if even rather a strict one, because it's what is supplemented by the plot and other paratextual materials, in either a proven way or that of logical connection. The "pining" action comes from an audience perspective of Cloud wanting to be with her romantically and lamenting that he can't because she's dead (which, has it's own split differences from just having any amount of romantic feeling)—both of these things aren't firm to believe in the most adamant sense (hence two decades worth of argumentation, most likely), but also, the specific proposed character motivation that is blatantly being said here is literally not what his problem IS, and this isn't expressed at all in the story. Guilt, regret, low self value, and moving on from past events—the deaths of Zack and Aerith and suffering from Geostigma are pushing THESE emotions and lead his actions, and are the only things that have been described within the actual film and supporting materials.
Now at best, if in good faith with believing Cloud did have any amount of romantic feelings for Aerith (again, slightly different the specific motivation to be with her through pining)—you'd be just saying that Cloud has been affected very heavily by the loss of someone he had romantic feelings for. Simple statement—which is not the same as saying he's currently pining (i.e. actively wants to be with her) for her because that depends on a numerous lines of conjecture that can't be backed up reliably. This is a big step away form the reasonable thought of Cloud having romantic feelings for her during the OG. It would also be reasonable to understand why Tifa would feel mixed feelings about Cloud's emotional degradation from Aerith's death (which is supported by the movie + supplemental material), because on paper at glance, your partner feeling anything for someone they felt any amount of romance for is a "no-no", but the reality of their situation (and how it works in real life emotions), should in good faith, allow all the information saying it's about guilt, regret, low self value, and moving on from past events, as a true answer as opposed to Tifa being sad because Cloud wants to be in love with Aerith instead of her, which isn't presented in the story or supported materials.
Media begets interpretation, so I'm not surprised that this is one of many interpretations out there. It's just that when you get to the nitty gritty, it's simply a non-component of the story outside of one's knee jerk interpretation. Whether they played OG or not—people's surface level understanding of relationships can easily trigger this interpretation about what Cloud is feeling in AC. Understandable, but step further in, and it becomes less so.
Shadowstorm
Pro Adventurer
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- Yen
I think at a certain point you also have to acknowledge that ACC is a pretty basic action movie functioning as a sequel to a popular videogame. The main hero having some kind of flaw that negatively impacts his relationship with his love interest and/or family leaving him at a low point before the plot kicks in until he's eventually forced to face his demons, leaving him to resolve his personal issues so that he can face the main threat and go back to a happier life once all is said and done is incredibly formulaic. I highly doubt they were shooting for something more complex than that.
Just keeping it to videogame comparisons: Nate and Elena start off every Uncharted game either broken up or having problems as a result of Nate's issues, but the message there is never that they're bad for each other. It's that Nate needs to work out his shit so he can be with the person that makes him happy. Peter and MJ start the ps4 Spider-Man game broken up not because the game is telling you they shouldn't be a couple, but so that you can root for them to work things out with each other as well as save the city. You can argue about the quality of the execution, I certainly think that, while better than I expected from a 2-hour long action movie sequel created by people with no experience making movies, it fumbled quite a bit, but to say the intent was to paint Cloud as unforgivable feels like a bit of a reach to me.
As for Aerith, she was one of the main trio in FF7, her death is the most iconic moment in the game, and one of the most iconic moments of in gaming history. It was never not going to play a prominent part in the story and rightly so. It's not like the original game actually gave the characters space to grieve.
Just keeping it to videogame comparisons: Nate and Elena start off every Uncharted game either broken up or having problems as a result of Nate's issues, but the message there is never that they're bad for each other. It's that Nate needs to work out his shit so he can be with the person that makes him happy. Peter and MJ start the ps4 Spider-Man game broken up not because the game is telling you they shouldn't be a couple, but so that you can root for them to work things out with each other as well as save the city. You can argue about the quality of the execution, I certainly think that, while better than I expected from a 2-hour long action movie sequel created by people with no experience making movies, it fumbled quite a bit, but to say the intent was to paint Cloud as unforgivable feels like a bit of a reach to me.
As for Aerith, she was one of the main trio in FF7, her death is the most iconic moment in the game, and one of the most iconic moments of in gaming history. It was never not going to play a prominent part in the story and rightly so. It's not like the original game actually gave the characters space to grieve.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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- Tim, Ryu
Yes. The man himself says he wants forgiveness from her. He doesn't want to be sad and alone, he's made himself sad and alone because he has understood his contraction of geostigma as a punishment for a failure to save Aerith, Zack, and Denzel. He's not exactly giving up on life, but he is growing desperate for a solution since he's convinced himself he cannot do it himself. So he turns to the person who he figures can help, since she was able to help out with a miracle against Meteor, and because she's the symbol of his failings.
As for the wavering quote, that's really a nothingburger because it's talking about the setup. It's talking about Cloud hesitating while these two women have the hots for him. Then we get the big twist and welp, it's been Tifa since forever. Everything he did was to try and impress Tifa.
If I read your earlier post correctly you have not played the OG yet? Might be the time to do so.
Only thing I’ll add is that while dev comments and VA thoughts are good to know, the work itself stands on its own. If it doesn’t, then the problem is that the work isn’t well made in the first place and that’s the core issue.
Cloud’s wavering only occurs during the part of the game where you, the player, have influence over Cloud’s reactions. All of it vanishes once Cloud regains his sense of self.
ACC is dripping in symbolism, but the issue with symbolism is that symbols are defined by their context and the viewer’s preconceived notions.
Cloud’s wavering only occurs during the part of the game where you, the player, have influence over Cloud’s reactions. All of it vanishes once Cloud regains his sense of self.
ACC is dripping in symbolism, but the issue with symbolism is that symbols are defined by their context and the viewer’s preconceived notions.
Played the OG a few years ago, but I might be due to a new play through.
As per the quote, like all the quotes, I’ve felt like the preponderance of ambiguity has started to make my wheels spin too fast and everything said or written outside the main work HAS to mean something more than it does. Maybe you’re right and it is a nothing burger.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
It’s PR talk. They’re mandated not to say certain things because they still want a portion of the fanbase to keep tuning in. If they just came out and said Cloti is canon… then they risk losing merchandise sales for Cloud and Aerith. So they still want it both shipping fandoms invested so that sales are up.
PR talk is also seen in other things as well. The devs are always careful because they don’t want to piss people off. In Square’s case, I think they’ve realized that this might have been a mistake or that they want thing to be conclusively over before some of the oldguard begins retiring… but I guess Part 3 will tell us for sure.
PR Talk and not spoiling the work in question since that subject is woven into the bigger reveals of the story.
Even if I don’t agree with the choice, it’s also why Cloud is depicted the way he is outside of FF7. His true self is a dead giveaway that something is seriously wrong at the beginning of FF7, where you’re supposed to take him at face value. It’s part of the difficulty of talking about a story like FF7 outside of itself. Say the wrong thing, and the plot twists have been spoiled in their entirety.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
It’s also an old quote, we all knew about. It’s clearly referring to pre-Aerith death. It’s been recontextualised by Aerith’s resolution in Remake and Rebirth itself: “even if you THINK you have (fallen in love with me), it’s an ILLUSION”.
I cannot stress how much people are ignoring what Aerith truly is saying there: even if the player thinks Cloud has fallen for Aerith, it’s part of the illusion. CA’s theme is an illusion: it’s a pretty one, but Rebirth poses the question “is it really love?” And its answer is that Cloud tells her she’s a friend, and that she even may question her own feelings as we see her first boyfriend trying to save her through worlds.
I cannot stress how much people are ignoring what Aerith truly is saying there: even if the player thinks Cloud has fallen for Aerith, it’s part of the illusion. CA’s theme is an illusion: it’s a pretty one, but Rebirth poses the question “is it really love?” And its answer is that Cloud tells her she’s a friend, and that she even may question her own feelings as we see her first boyfriend trying to save her through worlds.
Shadowfox
You look like you need a monkey
One of the reasons why I don't like the take that Cloud was pining for Aerith and longing to be with her in AC -- especially the way that some Cleriths have been portraying it -- is that it throws a really skeevy light on lot of his decisions and actions pre-movie. Like, why would he live with Tifa if Aerith was the one he wanted? Why did he say stuff like having Tifa with him gave him hope? Why did he adopt a kid with her? Why did they even make him get Tifa pay for his motorcycle?
Simply put, I don't agree that Cloud was pining for Aerith in AC/ACC because that motive coupled with his actions and decisions mean that he'd been taking advantage of Tifa, whom he's known very clearly has feelings for him, for years. It basically turns a good character into a freeloader, a liar, a two-timer.
(In fact, as I recall, after AC first came out in 2004/2005, there were many Cleriths who argued in favour of this depiction of Cloud; even to the point where they'd claim he was treating Tifa that way because, "well, she's the one with the house and money, plus she's sexy, he's only human after all, what else is he supposed to do?")
Anyway, if Cloud was meant to be pining for Aerith, there are surely better ways of showing it to the audience that doesn't involve turning the hero of the story into a complete douchebag.
Simply put, I don't agree that Cloud was pining for Aerith in AC/ACC because that motive coupled with his actions and decisions mean that he'd been taking advantage of Tifa, whom he's known very clearly has feelings for him, for years. It basically turns a good character into a freeloader, a liar, a two-timer.
(In fact, as I recall, after AC first came out in 2004/2005, there were many Cleriths who argued in favour of this depiction of Cloud; even to the point where they'd claim he was treating Tifa that way because, "well, she's the one with the house and money, plus she's sexy, he's only human after all, what else is he supposed to do?")
Anyway, if Cloud was meant to be pining for Aerith, there are surely better ways of showing it to the audience that doesn't involve turning the hero of the story into a complete douchebag.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
About Cloud's wavering, aside from what Kitase said in OG, Nomura add this for Rebirth:
"You really get the sense Cloud's not used to being around women. Tifa and Aerith are both very formidable. Nomura says Aerith is very forthcoming, while Tifa is pretty passionate—Cloud's current skills aren't a match for either of them."
Source: エアリスの運命も含めて盛り上がりは最高潮に！ 発売直前「FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH」開発陣インタビュー 北瀬氏、浜口氏、野村氏が見どころを語る
So yeah, basically it just exists on that timeline till Aerith's death. And I think that's what the wavering is actually means.
"You really get the sense Cloud's not used to being around women. Tifa and Aerith are both very formidable. Nomura says Aerith is very forthcoming, while Tifa is pretty passionate—Cloud's current skills aren't a match for either of them."
Source: エアリスの運命も含めて盛り上がりは最高潮に！ 発売直前「FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH」開発陣インタビュー 北瀬氏、浜口氏、野村氏が見どころを語る
So yeah, basically it just exists on that timeline till Aerith's death. And I think that's what the wavering is actually means.