Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Fiz]

I have a Zack theory and I think this might back up a single timeline.


Zack arrives with Cloud at or near Midgar, some event occurs that leads to Cloud obtaining the Buster Sword and meeting Tifa - setting Clouds ball rolling.

The "some event": I'm punting on it involving Deepground and/or Yuffie, and that in Remake Part 2 Yuffie and Zacks journey will roll out together. So we will have a "Team Cloud" consisting of Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret and Red, and "Team Zack" consisting of Zack, Yuffie and ??? (depends on Integrade).

Team Cloud will be chasing Sephiroth, and as such covering OG ground. Team Zack will be on some other journey (likely whatever Integrade sets up) which will lean more into introducing Compilation material.

The reason I expect Team Zack to include Yuffie is because they have a pre-existing relationship from Crisis Core and with that they can pull Crisis Core materials into Remake alongside Deepground materials. The Team Zack journey will likely be some Wutai storyline where Yuffie and Zack are fighting for Wutai's benefit. This to me sounds like a natural progression for both characters going forward, the events of Crisis Core and what went down until Zacks Last Stand isn't likely to see Zack involving himself positively with Midgar, and if anything it would make sense for him to question the "war with Wutai" narrative and want to help. Yuffie is the natural vehicle for this.

At some point the journeys of Team Cloud and Team Zack will intersect. It's also possible that Yuffie could intersect Team Cloud independantly of Zack should she become separated from Team Zack for whatever reason. So, it doesn't even necessarily mean Yuffie is disjointed from Team Cloud so much.


So, I think Zack's involvement in Remake is going to involve Yuffie in some Wutai storyline which spins out of Integrade creating a Team Cloud and Team Zack. If this is the case, then it would likely be a single timeline.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, that would certainly settle this debate at any rate. XD

While I begin to see more where you and @BlueCollarNerd could make parts of your interpretation work mechanically, @Fiz , I think my biggest hangups with your theory model remain. You're right, of course, that the developers are going to make whatever plot they want first, then explain it with plot contrivances second, but it is very difficult for me to square some of these circles.

For example, for Nomura and Kitase to tell us before the remake has even come out that VIIR is not meant to replace the story of the original because they remain separate stories in separate continuities tells us from the get-go -- in my mind anyway -- that we're dealing with a multiverse model. It would then be much cleaner for any time travel that produces alterations to the past to be either of the branching/cascading timeline variety or the cross-dimensional variety; and with Remake and the original, from the start, having built-in differences that seemingly have nothing to do with time travel, it then becomes cleaner still to narrow any time travel that does occur down to the cross-dimensional variety.

Now, obviously the developers aren't beholden to this. Taking the at-times-hard-to-avoid cynical view of this development team, perhaps my theory and understanding being the cleaner one is all the more reason to expect that it's wrong.

They can absolutely go the route that Marvel and DC Comics have allowed themselves over the decades and do all of the above variations on time travel (plus more!), with different outcomes occurring arbitrarily so long as it's in service to the story they want to tell and their goals for the plot.

I would hope that to not be the case, but I must acknowledge the possibility.

What I haven't found reconciliation with in your proposals, however, is that we have an interloper seemingly from the future mucking around in the same present day as the Sephiroth regenerating inside the Northern Crater. How does Sephiroth absorbing knowledge from the Lifestream post-Nibelheim result in us having a double of him with intimate knowledge of the future? And why can he have a double without the timestream phasing one out yet Cloud and Aerith cannot?

I'll also confess that I can't wrap my head around the how & why of Sephiroth absorbing future knowledge from the Lifestream to begin with. How is it possible? Yes, I understand that Lifestreams/spirit energy make time travel possible, as seen in FFIX -- but that's travel to the past. That's also utilizing memory that could reasonably be expected to be found in a Lifestream in the present moment; i.e. the present Lifestream will contain the memories of the past up to the present.

What am I missing? There's a disconnect here somewhere -- perhaps more than one -- that I just can't work through.

 

[Roger]

Zack arrives with Cloud at or near Midgar, some event occurs that leads to Cloud obtaining the Buster Sword and meeting Tifa - setting Clouds ball rolling.

My main hangup I suppose is the idea that Cloud obtaining the Buster Sword at any point is all that is needed to "set his ball rolling". Tifa being the first person Cloud interacts with when he becomes concious is what makes the Ex-SOLDIER. Cloud is already waking when Zack is walking away to meet the Shinra army. If Zack makes it to Midgar, then Cloud has been walking and talking with someone he doesn't feel the need to impress by acting like the badass SOLDIER First Class for hours already. The merc that Barret knows who will bomb a reactor without any need to context does not exist in this scenerio.

Cloud's delusions, the reasons for them and overcoming them was a big part of the original plot, and key to how Sephiroth is able to use the party to obtain the Black Materia and why he is able to make Cloud break down at the Northern Crater. "Zack asked to me to hang onto his sword for the day, thus I decided to take up ecoterrorism, no big deal." being what Cloud what do anyway really undercuts everything.

 

[KindOfBlue]

@KindOfBlue The way Nanaki speaks about the Whispers makes me doubt they are something brandnew introduced to the world 5 years ago.

I thought so too, though he didn’t actually know anything about them until Aerith touched him

why does there need to be some contrived reason for Cloud ending up with the Buster Sword in the other timeline he doesn't remember anyway?

Assuming that is the direction they’re going in, I would say it’s also to create doubt in the audience who may already know what happened to the sword originally

They wouldn't end up in the exact same spot as they did after the Whisper/Sephiroth fight if there was no Whisper/Sephiroth fight, they probably wouldn't even be leaving Midgar, or be the same party of five.

Going back to my Steins;Gate example, some events will end up occurring regardless of the timeline being different if the amount of divergence between each timeline isn’t large enough. The Whisper fight itself occurred in a singularity outside of the boundaries of time, but the events that led up to it, even if different in some areas, would presumably still end up in the same way or at least similar.

Since I’m just ripping off Steins;Gate here, it won’t be a completely tight scenario lol but it is one of those devices in which the writers can conveniently keep some things while changing other things that would be otherwise unchangeable.

The Cloud that woke up to Zack being very much alive instead of dead must spontanously disappear from this reality and the Buster Sword and Tifa, Barret, Aerith and Red XIII along with him, to be displaced by the Cloud, ect. we played in Remake. No reason he needs to end up with the Buster Sword before that time.

Normally that would be the case but presumably that’s where the singularity may come into play, of course I still have no idea what the hell any of this actually is so who knows lol

VIIR is not meant to replace the story of the original because they remain separate stories in separate continuities tells us from the get-go -- in my mind anyway -- that we're dealing with a multiverse model.

Since you mention multiverses, do you think there’s a difference between when a property has an in-universe multiverse versus when it just happens to have multiple continuities of the same characters? Like, I would say that Marvel characters do exist in a multiverse but only because Marvel went out of their way to not only give each universe a name but to even write stories where the universes connect. Prior to all of that though, I would’ve just thought of each version of Spider-Man for example as just separate continuities without any connection. Technically it would still be a multiverse from a meta perspective but in-universe it simply wouldn’t exist, I think?

How does Sephiroth absorbing knowledge from the Lifestream post-Nibelheim result in us having a double of him with intimate knowledge of the future? And why can he have a double without the timestream phasing one out yet Cloud and Aerith cannot?

Now this I have no idea about, but really, I think that same question applies to how Sephiroth is so much more powerful this time overall and I’m assuming we’ll get an answer for that at some point...I kinda just picked the Nibelheim incident because I figured it would be the best place to expand Sephiroth’s powers if that’s what they’re gonna do

If Zack makes it to Midgar, then Cloud has been walking and talking with someone he doesn't feel the need to impress by acting like the badass SOLDIER First Class for hours already. The merc that Barret knows who will bomb a reactor without any need to context does not exist in this scenerio.

Cloud's delusions, the reasons for them and overcoming them was a big part of the original plot, and key to how Sephiroth is able to use the party to obtain the Black Materia and why he is able to make Cloud break down at the Northern Crater. "Zack asked to me to hang onto his sword for the day, thus I decided to take up ecoterrorism, no big deal." being what Cloud what do anyway really undercuts everything.

I think this would all be true but only if Cloud was to have his memories rewritten to account for the new history, but if the singularity preserves his old memories and prevents them from being overwritten then at least from his perspective, Zack being dead and giving him the sword would have still happened...I imagine this would make the reveal that Zack is actually alive even more mindbreaking, that dissonance between what the protagonist remembers and what everybody else remembers is something Steins;Gate really leans into

 

[Roger]

I thought so too, though he didn’t actually know anything about them until Aerith touched him


Assuming that is the direction they’re going in, I would say it’s also to create doubt in the audience who may already know what happened to the sword originally


Going back to my Steins;Gate example, some events will end up occurring regardless of the timeline being different if the amount of divergence between each timeline isn’t large enough. The Whisper fight itself occurred in a singularity outside of the boundaries of time, but the events that led up to it, even if different in some areas, would presumably still end up in the same way or at least similar.

Since I’m just ripping off Steins;Gate here, it won’t be a completely tight scenario lol but it is one of those devices in which the writers can conveniently keep some things while changing other things that would be otherwise unchangeable.


Normally that would be the case but presumably that’s where the singularity may come into play, of course I still have no idea what the hell any of this actually is so who knows lol


Since you mention multiverses, do you think there’s a difference between when a property has an in-universe multiverse versus when it just happens to have multiple continuities of the same characters? Like, I would say that Marvel characters do exist in a multiverse but only because Marvel went out of their way to not only give each universe a name but to even write stories where the universes connect. Prior to all of that though, I would’ve just thought of each version of Spider-Man for example as just separate continuities without any connection. Technically it would still be a multiverse from a meta perspective but in-universe it simply wouldn’t exist, I think?


Now this I have no idea about, but really, I think that same question applies to how Sephiroth is so much more powerful this time overall and I’m assuming we’ll get an answer for that at some point...I kinda just picked the Nibelheim incident because I figured it would be the best place to expand Sephiroth’s powers if that’s what they’re gonna do


I think this would all be true but only if Cloud was to have his memories rewritten to account for the new history, but if the singularity preserves his old memories and prevents them from being overwritten then at least from his perspective, Zack being dead and giving him the sword would have still happened...I imagine this would make the reveal that Zack is actually alive even more mindbreaking, that dissonance between what the protagonist remembers and what everybody else remembers is something Steins;Gate really leans into

Cloud doesn't remember a Zack person one way or the other until Aerith is dead and then some, that's multiple games away. I can't imagine them wantin to tell a "what if Zack survives" story but then going "except for how it would effect Cloud, or Aerith, or Tifa, or Sephiroth or even Tseng, just Yuffie, really."

 

[KindOfBlue]

Cloud doesn't remember a Zack person one way or the other until Aerith is dead and then some, that's multiple games away. I can't imagine them wantin to tell a "what if Zack survives" story but then going "except for how it would effect Cloud, or Aerith, or Tifa, or Sephiroth or even Tseng, just Yuffie, really."

Yeah as far as how they actually go about it implementing Zack into the story, I’ve got no hard ideas there...I probably wouldn’t want Zack to actively join the party but maybe we’ll fight him?

 

[Roundhouse]

Unless Zack is disguised, as he should be anyway considering Shinra, and he joins Aeris and Tifa in avoiding the trigger stuff for Cloud...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Since you mention multiverses, do you think there’s a difference between when a property has an in-universe multiverse versus when it just happens to have multiple continuities of the same characters? Like, I would say that Marvel characters do exist in a multiverse but only because Marvel went out of their way to not only give each universe a name but to even write stories where the universes connect. Prior to all of that though, I would’ve just thought of each version of Spider-Man for example as just separate continuities without any connection. Technically it would still be a multiverse from a meta perspect

Sure, there's room for a difference there. It occurs to me that I can't immediately think of any examples (even "DmC" was identified as an alternate universe from the mainline "Devil May Cry"), but yes, developers are always free to go that route. In this case, I think we would be knowingly deciding on the more unlikely notion, though.

I just really can't really picture the thought process there having been

---
We'll have the story feature:

- Prophetic visions of events from the original continuity, occasionally even reusing actual footage from titles depicting that continuity

- Cosmic entities who are explicitly trying to guide or force everyone to recreate those events (the guidebook we release will even say that they consider destiny to be "the story of the original FFVII")

- A duplicate of the main villain acting like he already knows the script to the original game

And we'll do all this in the same era that saw "Rebuild of Evangelion," "Soul Calibur VI," and the J.J. Abrams "Star Trek" movie.

No one would think this continuity has anything to do with the canon of the original game and Compilation, yeah? By the way, we'll also say in an interview that "the canon of the Compilation is very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too."
---

 

[KindOfBlue]

Sure, there's room for a difference there. It occurs to me that I can't immediately think of any examples (even "DmC" was identified as an alternate universe from the mainline "Devil May Cry"), but yes, developers are always free to go that route. In this case, I think we would be knowingly deciding on the more unlikely notion, though.

I just really can't really picture the thought process there having been

---
We'll have the story feature:

- Prophetic visions of events from the original continuity, occasionally even reusing actual footage from titles depicting that continuity

- Cosmic entities who are explicitly trying to guide or force everyone to recreate those events (the guidebook we release will even say that they consider destiny to be "the story of the original FFVII")

- A duplicate of the main villain acting like he already knows the script to the original game; and we'll do all this in the same era that saw "Rebuild of Evangelion," "Soul Calibur VI," and the J.J. Abrams "Star Trek" movie

No one would think this continuity has anything to do with the canon of the original game and Compilation, yeah? By the way, we'll also say in an interview that "the canon of the Compilation is very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too."
---

I think it kinda begs the question of whether or not this remake can be considered a retcon of the original, because if the two are separate continuities then I would say it’s not...I mean, Kitase says the Compilation’s canon is the “base” of the remake’s canon rather than being the remake’s canon and he said this piggybacking off of Nomura’s statement about no continuity between the remake and the original, so if I had to guess what they were thinking, I imagine they wanted to be able to make some bold story decisions while also preserving the original/Compilation’s continuity

 

[Fiz]

Well, that would certainly settle this debate at any rate. XD

While I begin to see more where you and @BlueCollarNerd could make parts of your interpretation work mechanically, @Fiz , I think my biggest hangups with your theory model remain. You're right, of course, that the developers are going to make whatever plot they want first, then explain it with plot contrivances second, but it is very difficult for me to square some of these circles.

It might be worth pointing out that I treat Remake as though it were a film adaptation of a novel where we've been told "this is an adapatation with a twist, and that will not be exactly the same as the novel". Because, whether Remake exists within OG's continuity or not, I think thats fundamentally what Remake is.

For example, for Nomura and Kitase to tell us before the remake has even come out that VIIR is not meant to replace the story of the original because they remain separate stories in separate continuities tells us from the get-go -- in my mind anyway -- that we're dealing with a multiverse model.

According to what I've seen said, they haven't stated that its in its own continuity.

野村『FFVII リメイク』が出てもオリジナルの『FFVII』が上書きされるわけではありません。オリジナルがあくまで原点であり、今回はオリジナルあってこその新しい『FFVII』であると捉えていただければと思います。オリジナルのファンの方にはオリジナルとの違い、新しくて懐かしい部分を逆に楽しんでいただきたいと思っていますし、今回初めて『FFVII』をプレイされる方と同じ気持ちで遊んでいただければ幸いです。

まずは、複数作の第一作目となりますが、遊び応えは一作分あると思います、ぜひ楽しみにお待ちください。

https://www.famitsu.com/news/202003/02193727.html

He says that Remake does not replace OG, that OG is the beginning, and that Remake is a new story. This doesn't tell us that Remake is in its own continuity. It doesn't say it isn't either. A Requel within the same continuity is fully compatible with what he is saying, and by framing OG as the beginning I think this implies that OG is the beginning of a sequence of events, and Remake is the end of that sequence of events.

It would then be much cleaner for any time travel that produces alterations to the past to be either of the branching/cascading timeline variety or the cross-dimensional variety; and with Remake and the original, from the start, having built-in differences that seemingly have nothing to do with time travel, it then becomes cleaner still to narrow any time travel that does occur down to the cross-dimensional variety.

Now, obviously the developers aren't beholden to this. Taking the at-times-hard-to-avoid cynical view of this development team, perhaps my theory and understanding being the cleaner one is all the more reason to expect that it's wrong.

They can absolutely go the route that Marvel and DC Comics have allowed themselves over the decades and do all of the above variations on time travel (plus more!), with different outcomes occurring arbitrarily so long as it's in service to the story they want to tell and their goals for the plot.

I would hope that to not be the case, but I must acknowledge the possibility.

I don't rule out multiverses being a possibility, the core of what I'm arguing is fans being hung up on multiverses could easily be barking up completely the wrong tree. It could potentially be either, and both are plausible.

However, I take a certain view towards the multiversing theories, but I'm not sure how to express it in a way that isn't really messy.

What I haven't found reconciliation with in your proposals, however, is that we have an interloper seemingly from the future mucking around in the same present day as the Sephiroth regenerating inside the Northern Crater. How does Sephiroth absorbing knowledge from the Lifestream post-Nibelheim result in us having a double of him with intimate knowledge of the future? And why can he have a double without the timestream phasing one out yet Cloud and Aerith cannot?

I know this might not be satisfying but I would treat both Sephioroth and Aerith as "beyond comprehension" for now, because I suspect they exist as beings outside of "normal". Something is seriously weird about them, and I suspect that both are effectively compatible with the idea of Gods in Remakes universe. Existances from the Lifestream that are "ambiguous".

I'll also confess that I can't wrap my head around the how & why of Sephiroth absorbing future knowledge from the Lifestream to begin with. How is it possible? Yes, I understand that Lifestreams/spirit energy make time travel possible, as seen in FFIX -- but that's travel to the past. That's also utilizing memory that could reasonably be expected to be found in a Lifestream in the present moment; i.e. the present Lifestream will contain the memories of the past up to the present.

What am I missing? There's a disconnect here somewhere -- perhaps more than one -- that I just can't work through.

Can I sell you a time loop theory?

Those future visions are not of the future, they are of the past. OG has already happened, Remake exists simultaneously in the future of OG and at the same time. Compilation leads to Remake by virtue of its very existance, this is a cyclic relationship, thus there is a loop.

For illustrative purposes I'll assume 2 loops minimum:

CYCLE 1:
Point 1: Here is OG, Aerith and Sephiroth die and enter the lifestream (this bit is important)
Point 2: AC Happens, Aerith and Sephiroth are compatible with the idea of Gods - they're beyond all that is "regular" about the universe. Cloud kicks his arse. He gives an "I'll be back" and he will, they always are.
Point 3: Dirge happens, wow no Sephy but you know... beware famous cliches
Point 4: ??? but whatever it is, its taking us back to Point 1, into Remake... or a Remake, look... we're going to Point 1 again, we have to be, its a logical shitshow if it doesn't...

CYCLE ???:
Point 1: We are back at the beginning, its OG but its not OG... its a Remake, but there might have been many Remakes before us, we might be the first one... none the less we are at the beginning, if a device that ensures the events to follow are unchanged then this event will lead to...
Point 2: AC Happens... a pesky device that keeps events in check will lead us to...
Point 3: Dirge happens and a pesky device that ensures the events to follow are unchanged then this event will lead to...
Point 4: ??? but whatever it is, we're at Remake again... Point 1 again... back to the beginning we go... pesky Whispers

CYCLE ???:
Point 1: Who only knows what cycle this is, we know the drill, we are in a loop, if a device that keeps us on path... blah blah blah, this is Remake, Remake so lets remove that device and break this loop and ask some questions...

Those visions, they're not ahead of us, they're behind us... in the loop. Aerith knows shit because its the past, not the future. Sephy and Aerith are superpowered because they're dead, they died back in Cycle 1, in point 2 of cycle 1 they became kinda like god things, they exist in the lifestream which is its own thing. So they live in the physical world but also exist in the lifestream at the same time. Our objective is not to end this chapter as OG did, else we end up in the loop again, because its that fecker with long hair who is responsible.


I think its probably something like that. Probably.

 

[ForceStealer]

(even "DmC" was identified as an alternate universe from the mainline "Devil May Cry")

That would be the oft-mentioned darkest timeline.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

According to what I've seen said, they haven't stated that its in its own continuity.

野村『FFVII リメイク』が出てもオリジナルの『FFVII』が上書きされるわけではありません。オリジナルがあくまで原点であり、今回はオリジナルあってこその新しい『FFVII』であると捉えていただければと思います。オリジナルのファンの方にはオリジナルとの違い、新しくて懐かしい部分を逆に楽しんでいただきたいと思っていますし、今回初めて『FFVII』をプレイされる方と同じ気持ちで遊んでいただければ幸いです。

まずは、複数作の第一作目となりますが、遊び応えは一作分あると思います、ぜひ楽しみにお待ちください。

https://www.famitsu.com/news/202003/02193727.html

He says that Remake does not replace OG, that OG is the beginning, and that Remake is a new story. This doesn't tell us that Remake is in its own continuity. It doesn't say it isn't either.

There's also this, though:

---
VG247: So I’m pretty sure that after Sephiroth appears and you’re walking around the streets of Midgar, that’s a music track from Advent Children. [We later verified this; the music track is a new arrangement of ‘The Promised Land‘ from 2005 FF7 sequel movie Advent Children.] I was surprised to hear that. I realize [Tetsuya] Nomura-san said before that the remake is in a different continuity to the FF7 projects from the past, but I’m curious about how much of the compilation ideas you wanted to bring into the game. Hearing music from the compilation that never appeared in the original FF7 was a pleasant surprise.

Yoshinori Kitase: I can’t give you full details exactly how many times, where they’re referenced, or anything like that, but what I want to let you know is that all of the lore from the works created after the original game, the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, that’s all very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too.
---

A Requel within the same continuity is fully compatible with what he is saying, and by framing OG as the beginning I think this implies that OG is the beginning of a sequence of events, and Remake is the end of that sequence of events.

...

Can I sell you a time loop theory?

Those future visions are not of the future, they are of the past. OG has already happened, Remake exists simultaneously in the future of OG and at the same time. Compilation leads to Remake by virtue of its very existance, this is a cyclic relationship, thus there is a loop.

For illustrative purposes I'll assume 2 loops minimum:

CYCLE 1:
Point 1: Here is OG, Aerith and Sephiroth die and enter the lifestream (this bit is important)
Point 2: AC Happens, Aerith and Sephiroth are compatible with the idea of Gods - they're beyond all that is "regular" about the universe. Cloud kicks his arse. He gives an "I'll be back" and he will, they always are.
Point 3: Dirge happens, wow no Sephy but you know... beware famous cliches
Point 4: ??? but whatever it is, its taking us back to Point 1, into Remake... or a Remake, look... we're going to Point 1 again, we have to be, its a logical shitshow if it doesn't...

CYCLE ???:
Point 1: We are back at the beginning, its OG but its not OG... its a Remake, but there might have been many Remakes before us, we might be the first one... none the less we are at the beginning, if a device that ensures the events to follow are unchanged then this event will lead to...
Point 2: AC Happens... a pesky device that keeps events in check will lead us to...
Point 3: Dirge happens and a pesky device that ensures the events to follow are unchanged then this event will lead to...
Point 4: ??? but whatever it is, we're at Remake again... Point 1 again... back to the beginning we go... pesky Whispers

CYCLE ???:
Point 1: Who only knows what cycle this is, we know the drill, we are in a loop, if a device that keeps us on path... blah blah blah, this is Remake, Remake so lets remove that device and break this loop and ask some questions...

Those visions, they're not ahead of us, they're behind us... in the loop. Aerith knows shit because its the past, not the future. Sephy and Aerith are superpowered because they're dead, they died back in Cycle 1, in point 2 of cycle 1 they became kinda like god things, they exist in the lifestream which is its own thing. So they live in the physical world but also exist in the lifestream at the same time. Our objective is not to end this chapter as OG did, else we end up in the loop again, because its that fecker with long hair who is responsible.

I think its probably something like that. Probably.

Well, I mean ... yeah. I agree in very large part. That's honestly not that different from my theory, other than me having taken the alternate universe thing to heart already and incorporated cross-dimensional travel. If not for that, what you propose would probably be right about where I am.

At the end of the day, though, it seems like we're on the same page that VIIR is a requel, and that's probably the more relevant matter.

 

[BlueCollarNerd]

While I begin to see more where you and @BlueCollarNerd could make parts of your interpretation work mechanically, @Fiz , I think my biggest hangups with your theory model remain.

Dont know where youre getting my interprtations from i havent even played FF7R yet.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Dont know where youre getting my interprtations from i havent even played FF7R yet.

I meant @KindOfBlue XD

 

[KindOfBlue]

I meant @KindOfBlue XD

 

[Fiz]

I meant @KindOfBlue XD

You spoiled him! ???

There's also this, though:

---
VG247: So I’m pretty sure that after Sephiroth appears and you’re walking around the streets of Midgar, that’s a music track from Advent Children. [We later verified this; the music track is a new arrangement of ‘The Promised Land‘ from 2005 FF7 sequel movie Advent Children.] I was surprised to hear that. I realize [Tetsuya] Nomura-san said before that the remake is in a different continuity to the FF7 projects from the past, but I’m curious about how much of the compilation ideas you wanted to bring into the game. Hearing music from the compilation that never appeared in the original FF7 was a pleasant surprise.

Yoshinori Kitase: I can’t give you full details exactly how many times, where they’re referenced, or anything like that, but what I want to let you know is that all of the lore from the works created after the original game, the Compilation of Final Fantasy 7, that’s all very much in the base of the canon for the remake, and going forward it will be too.
---

Okay, fair enough. However, I would point out that its the interviewer who said that, not Kitase, I assume interpreting the original Famitsu article a certain way?

Functionally, whether Remake exists in OG's continuity or not, I think Remake shares its content as though it were, and sits at the end of the entries.

Well, I mean ... yeah. I agree in very large part. That's honestly not that different from my theory, other than me having taken the alternate universe thing to heart already and incorporated cross-dimensional travel. If not for that, what you propose would probably be right about where I am.

At the end of the day, though, it seems like we're on the same page that VIIR is a requel, and that's probably the more relevant matter.

lol

Yeah, I don't think I sit that far away from most of you really. Where I think I differ the most is in how likely I think it is Beagle and Terrier are individual timelines/dimensions in Remake. I recognise that they might be, but I feel like a single timeline where Beagle Stamp has changed to Terrier Stamp due to a past rewrite is more likely.

Lets say, Terrier and Beagle are two dimensions, this leads me to a load of questions that lead me to feel its not likely.

How do people see the two timelines functioning in relationship to each other? That might be easier than me trying to list out all the possibilities and questions I have with them because I end up just brain farting stuff. lol

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

How do people see the two timelines functioning in relationship to each other? That might be easier than me trying to list out all the possibilities and questions I have with them because I end up just brain farting stuff. lol

Yeah, I don't really know how to expect that relationship to go down whether in the sense of two extant timelines or two different versions (i.e. one obsolete and one current) of a single one. Either way, it sounds like an incoming clusterfuck, but I do think two distinct lines of time is going to prove cleaner than a lot of story space being inevitably given to repeated "This is what we remember; this is how it actually is now" scenarios.

 

[cold_spirit]

How do people see the two timelines functioning in relationship to each other? That might be easier than me trying to list out all the possibilities and questions I have with them because I end up just brain farting stuff. lol

For me, offset timelines (not just two) could provide an explanation for Aerith's premonitions and the new Chapter 18 Sephiroth. It's possible that information slips through timelines during a singularity. For example, when the Whispers howl, Aerith appears to see Zack's last stand in Terrier timeline (judging from the surprised look on her face immediately afterward). Now let's suppose everything in the original game and Compilation already happened in their own timeline before the events of Remake in the Beagle timeline (again, presuming the timelines are offset). If there was a singularity between that original game timeline and the Beagle timeline, and Remake Aerith was again at the center of it, then perhaps some information was passed to her? Flashes of the Sector 7 plate fall from the original game and so on. I think that'd be a neat way to explain her premonitions and tie everything together.

Earlier, people speculated that the Chapter 18 Sephiroth is "from the far future". I speculate it'll be more correct to say he's from the far future of the original game timeline and that he's crossed over to the present day in Remake's Beagle timeline.

Functionally, I suspect that multiple, offset timelines will be used to get the characters "up-to-speed" with events of the original game and Compilation, add suspense, and integrate Zack into the story, who will be at Midgar in the Terrier timeline at the same time the party travels the globe in the Beagle timeline (again, presuming the timelines are offset). Seems like a good way to reuse those Midgar assets!

 

[Roundhouse]

This is such a headache of a topic. I'll put my own thoughts as simply as possible.

My first reaction to seeing the end of viir, before all the theorising and discussion, was that the scene was showing us alternate universes/lines. That's what I felt was being conveyed. At some point I got lost amidst all the debate over beagles and loops and time weirdness...but I like how some of you like Obsidian are deliberately now bringing this back to the basics and clearing stuff by looking at the main question here. What makes sense, story wise? Where are we likely headed based on this alone?

Story wise, I have to agree with those who argue that an alt timeline Zack just isn't interesting or natural enough...it feels forced and not worth bothering with. But then if he's indeed in the same timeline, how do you preserve the story of VII?

A) You don't.

B) You keep him completely separated from Cloud and co.

C) You find an attractive mix/balance of the two by, as people have said, using very precise timing of when to bring him in and when to leave him out. This is hard to do...it takes thoughtfulness and care, but it's just about possible for a smart writer.

I'm starting to think the third is the most interesting option and the one they are pursuing. Oh, neat to see the 'Zack meets Yuffie in the DLC' concept here -- it's something that came up on the server, and it sounds intriguing. Would they do something that huge for a dlc? I don't know, but it's possible.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Oh, neat to see the 'Zack meets Yuffie in the DLC' concept here -- it's something that came up on the server, and it sounds intriguing. Would they do something that huge for a dlc? I don't know, but it's possible.

I don't know about other people... but I know I thought this as soon as I saw Yuffie and Deepground being thrown together in the same DLC.

Yuffie flat out can't stand up to a Tsivet. The regular DG guys, sure... I can buy that. But Weiss? No way. She isn't even that good in DoC, and that's three years later. So there's a power imbalance there that has to be addressed. Yuffie has to bump into someone that can take on the Tsivets without a lot of problems... and the Tisvets are SOLDIER 1st Class level at least, if not more powerful.

I also knew from Crisis Core that Yuffie has a history of e-mailing Zack to get her out of trouble... including several memorable texts from Yuffie being in Midgar. And one in particular where she had... somehow gotten stuck in the interior of the Plate and was texting Zack to come get her... Deepground is... in the same vein as that. So I could see her texting Zack just to see if he would pick up... At the very least, it's a spot to put in a fun easter egg for everyone who remembers Crisis Core (and Remake loves Compilation Easter Eggs).

And that's not even taking the ending of Remake itself into account. If you do think everything is going on in the same timeline, Zack needs to be busy with something while the events of Remake are going on so he doesn't run into Cloud and Aerith and the rest of AVALANCHE. Having to deal with Deepground and keep Yuffie out of trouble would keep him plenty busy.

I might also want to see a Zack vs Weiss fight happen... and give Zack and Genesis a chance to touch base after Banora...

 

[ultima786]

Is this Japanese fan translation accurate? Seems like the whispers “returning” is mentioned briefly by Aerith in English but not in the Japanese?

 

[Makoeyes987]

What line are you talking about?

Where is Aerith saying the Arbiters of Fate are coming back?

The only thing she talks about "returning," are the souls that make up the Lifestream.

You do realize that that's what the Arbiters of Fate are, right? They are spirits. They come from the Lifestream. So naturally they are made up of spirits that have "returned" to the Planet. They're dead people.

They just happen to be from the different points in time.

 

[ultima786]

What line are you talking about?

Where is Aerith saying the Arbiters of Fate are coming back?

The only thing she talks about "returning," are the souls that make up the Lifestream.

You do realize that that's what the Arbiters of Fate are, right? They are spirits. They come from the Lifestream. So naturally they are made up of spirits that have "returned" to the Planet. They're dead people.

They just happen to be from the different points in time.

You have a slightly passive-aggressive way of responding to questions, lol. I am aware that returning means "returning to the Planet" and also aware that the Arbiters are Whispers. However, I found this line to be significantly different than the Japanese fan translation (although I can see the similarity, if you think about it hard).

In English, Aerith says, "What you heard just now are the voices of the planet. Those born into this world. Who lived and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain."

In Japanese, the fan translation states she said, "The screams of the planet... you heard them, right? The voices of the people who once lived on this planet. The screams of the lives who revolve around the planet."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Aerith is outlining the cycle of souls that revolves around and within the planet in the English translation.

You're born. You live. You die. And then you return to the planet.

The Japanese fanlation is merely an abbreviation. The lives that "revolve" around the planet are those of the dead. The spirit energy that make up the cycle of souls.

That's all it is.

 

[Fiz]

Is this Japanese fan translation accurate? Seems like the whispers “returning” is mentioned briefly by Aerith in English but not in the Japanese?

I'm not sure how to put this without sounding really dismissive of someone, and I'm going to go off at a tangent, but there is a purpose to it, so...

The official English translation is very well directed, they certainly know the script, the intents of the characters, the situations, and accomodating their personalities, and are clearly being directed so that they get that down into English in a fluent and natural way. While there are differences, the changes are very much on message and in character, and they are expressing ideas in a fluent manner between languages. The official translation will also have been passed by quality control in Japan, who will want this translation to be good.


When you consider a fan translations credibility I would be looking at what they are choosing to change and the translators intents with these changes - especially if they are offering up a "more accurate" translation.

I study several languages and Japanese is probably the most toxic, and has the most difficult "community" surrounding it. This is mainly because of Otaku culture, which leads there to be a disproportionate amount of people coming into the language who aren't really into languages at all, they're into Japan, or anime. While thats not a bad thing, I promote the learning of languages, it does come with its own issues. Such as, not understanding how to properly express ideas between languages, and a resistancy to proper inter-language expression despite this being a fundamental skill for being able to fluently communicate ideas between languages.

Its a pretty important thing; its not all about syntax, and isn't all about "purity" in how another language speaks. This desire to strip translations away into something more "pure" is a dictinctively Japanese entertainment media thing to do. I don't see this happening much with Spanish or French. Not just because they're more similar to English, but because it doesn't have this same culture surrounding it.


To make a point, my GF is from Mexico, shes a law student at a presitgious university who is planning to do a masters next year, her major is international law, one of the roles of her mandatory internship involves the analysis of legal documents between languages and consulting on them. She speaks Spanish (native), English, French and Chinese. Needless to say, her English is obviously at a very high level.

She frequently however comes out with utter nonsense in English, or very confused statements while trying to put ideas from Spanish over into English. Particularly when shes trying to express directly from one language to another. As the common saying goes, you've got to think and express ideas in the language you're speaking, not the language you're interpreting from.

I bring this up because only today we had a discussion about joven. Its a common term in Spanish speaking countries for young. For various reasons they often use "adult" as the contrast to it rather than "old". There is a certain "Spanish way of speaking", which can be difficult to shake. Unfortunately it often leads to rather odd ways of speaking in English if you're not fully familiar with how the two languages express ideas differently. Sometimes it leads to rather amusing statements, or even inflammatory claims. Such as implying that you were the only child at the party despite being an adult. Or being in a conversation where you've just implied that your friends sister is a child bride and while this can work sometimes is ill advised, exclaiming that the pub is full of children, or the time when she implied that one of her friends... pardon?

It can also lead to unintended insults, such as accidentially inferring that an adult is immature, is like a child, or accidentally calling someone old.

So, these problems even affect the fluent, and languages are far more complex animals than being able to translate some words.



Pretty much, 90% of the time, these fan translation efforts for Japanese content that tries to be pure neglect the importance of expressing ideas in a natural way, and that languages don't work like that. These translations often spew out English that is akin to what happens when I speak to a beginner in Spanish, my GF's dad (he speaks very little English), or how I sounded when I was trying to talk to her brother in law in Spanish.

In other words, not fluent and not expressing ideas clearly or with the nuance I or they intend.

Watching that video I'm seeing a lot of translation into awkward English, petty translation changes (destinys crossroads into the crossroad of destiny), and there are times a character is saying something, they've gone super literal and the official translation sounds more knowing of whats actually being expressed.

I'm not going to claim to be able to give a precise translation argument myself, because I have patchy understanding of the scene. My Japanese is around intermediate level and I know my limitations. Also, as many people find, their ability to read and write is at a different level to their ability to listen and speak. To my ear though, the official translation *sounds* like what Aerith is saying, and theirs seems like a slightly ham fisted, simplified, Japanified, way of saying something similar. The kind of thing you get when someone isn't fluent in English or the language they're trying to speak in.

This is typically happens because they don't appreciate how language works, or they are unable to understand or express the nuance required.

Things such as Tifa saying ここには何がある stick out to me, which the official translation gives as "what will we find on the other side?", they've changed this to "whats beyond there?" which is the most literal and basic translation you might find of that sentence. That is a big red flag though, because this is a construction that comes up on places like HelloTalk, and other language discussion groups, all the bloody time and trips people up because there is stuff going on with that... some of that stuff might be confusing or invisible even to people who are aware of whats going on with it.

https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/1096/what-is-the-difference-between-に-and-には

Thats just one discussion on the construction and it doesn't cover the entire topic. I think, that maybe, the official translation is accurate and theirs is borked.

So, with that all said, to answer your question about whether its an accurate fan translation, I would say to go with the official translation for the reasons listed above. Namely that it sounds like an elementary level speakers translation, and it ignores how expressing ideas between languages actually work. If I find translations in any language that sound awkward, cumbersome, and lack fluency of expression, I approach it with scepticism. If I find translations that are trying to correct official translations by being more pure, and fall into awkward sounding expression or petty changes, I approach it with scepticism.

Also, what @Makoeyes987 pointed out is also true.