Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Fiz]

Well obviously the past event was changed, because Zack's alive.

Right.

The past change is what created a split timeline and a 'new' Stamp to symbolize it.

How can you say this is the case? How can you know that we have created a split timeline? You don't know that, you assume that. It's possible that we have created a split timeline, but its also possible we have changed one timeline, its also possible that there were multiple timelines and they have now compressed into one new edited timeline. Its also possible that there are many timelines and we are all now still in the Singularity which is a prime timeline that has been edited to reflect changes in the multiverse timelines.

Anyway, Stamp changing does not imply another timeline any more than it implies the past of a single timeline has changed. If Zack and Biggs fates can change then equally Stamps design can change.

The vision of Stamp can be symbolic of a new timeline where things have changed, but also symbolic of the past being changed in a single timeline.

The final battles of Crisis Core, and FFVII-R happened simultaneously thanks to the Singularity and Whispers being at both places at the same time. Zack got to survive because of several factors, presumably the Whispers not doing their job and also because time was so warped due to the numerous changes that happened over the course of the story. It's a domino effect.

I completely agree, but how does this prove that we have multiple timelines and disprove that we have one timeline that has became changed in the past? It doesn't.

And it's not a 'past vision' because no one saw it. It's something we see as the audience. We see it because it's something that happens at the same time as the same chain of events of the Remake's ending. It's not really that complicated. The two events occured at the same time, just at two different points in time.

In a word, no. The first scene happens in the Singularity and the second one is juxtaposed. So if you're using "whenever we see the past, it has VFX" to identify events that are running in parallel or in the past then this is a little wonky. Furthermore the ending scenes themselves are time inconsistent because we transition from the Zack scene, to seeing Sector 7 and Biggs, Shinra in the aftermath etc. Also, the final scene itself is has VFX to juxtapose it.

Also, whenever we see the past normally we are seeing Clouds mind, or a story being told. The later Zack scenes post Fate/Sephiroth battle are distinct so using VFX framing isn't in any way reliable anyway.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How can you say this is the case? How can you know that we have created a split timeline? You don't know that, you assume that. It's possible that we have created a split timeline, but its also possible we have changed one timeline, its also possible that there were multiple timelines and they have now compressed into one new edited timeline. Its also possible that there are many timelines and we are all now still in the Singularity which is a prime timeline that has been edited to reflect changes in the multiverse timelines.

Anyway, Stamp changing does not imply another timeline any more than it implies the past of a single timeline has changed. If Zack and Biggs fates can change then equally Stamps design can change.

The vision of Stamp can be symbolic of a new timeline where things have changed, but also symbolic of the past being changed in a single timeline.

Then explain to me why Stamp changed from a beagle to a terrier. Stamp didn't look like that in FFVII-R and once again, the writers point this out to denote something anomalous happened with Zack surviving and the Whispers being annihilated.

And if Stamp's change is symbolic of a new timline where things have changed... That's exactly what I'm saying has happened. Zack surviving is a new timeline that was caused by the split from the past being changed.

I completely agree, but how does this prove that we have multiple timelines and disprove that we have one timeline that has became changed in the past? It doesn't.

Because Stamp doesn't look like that!

Stamp doesn't have variant designs. His design was the same throughout FFVII's history. There is no other alternative Stamp. They went through great lengths to even keep that consistency within the game. So seeing a different Stamp is meant to portend something extremely strange and new has occurred.

In a word, no. The first scene happens in the Singularity and the second one is juxtaposed. So if you're using "whenever we see the past, it has VFX" to identify events that are running in parallel or in the past then this is a little wonky. Furthermore the ending scenes themselves are time inconsistent because we transition from the Zack scene, to seeing Sector 7 and Biggs, Shinra in the aftermath etc. Also, the final scene itself is has VFX to juxtapose it.

Also, whenever we see the past normally we are seeing Clouds mind, or a story being told. The later Zack scenes post Fate/Sephiroth battle are distinct so using VFX framing isn't in any way reliable anyway.

They aren't in the singularity anymore during the ending. They exited out of it and are outside in the Midgar wastelands. On the exact same cliff area where Zack and Cloud are in CC.

 

[LNK]

I don't know, but I think it's more a fact of the Singularity acting as a time-space connection point, which allowed those events of FFVII to be connected thanks to the shared presence of all those Whispers.

Sorta like a literal... Crossroads of destiny.

I see what you're saying.

 

[Fiz]

I disagree that the OG already happened. Yes, a version of the story already happened(or was supposed to happen) before the Whispers were destroyed, but it wasn't the one from the OG. Because if that was the case, we would see Whispers at Jessie's house, the coliseum, the sewers(second visit), etc.

Not necesarilly, because the Whispers don't function like that. However, what you describe could potentially be indicative of a time loop.

The Whispers do not exist to make sure change does not happen, or new and different things don't happen. They exist to prevent changes that affect the course of Fate for the planet itself.

This is consistent within Remakes own narrative in how they allow change and then intervene later to put fate back on track because a change has occurred and later becomes problematic, or how they will permit a change and attempt to bring it fate back on course latently (Hi Wedge).


Mechanically, Fate in Remake is more like a WEAPON whose role is to ensure final endpoints for certain events that are required to ensure the planets own endpoint in at least the sense that the planet knows what that endpoint is. Like WEAPONS they aren't infallible, they're reactive and respond. They do not remove peoples free will in a more general basis, they remove free will only when it feels the need to do so.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I still think this is super relevant, @Fiz --

@Fiz
Even with the Ultimania being deliberately coy, "the fact that there are two Clouds at the same time" seems as straightforward a statement as anything in this scenario can be. That premise offered there is what my theorizing is being filtered through.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The whole thing with "two Clouds at the same time" is a red herring... about the concept that for a split second, there would have been two of everyone in the Singularity at that point when the Singularity and "past" Zack and Cloud are in meet. So... two Aeriths, two Tifas, two Barrets, two Reds... one of them in Midgar, the other in the Singularity... at the same point in "time". Cloud is just the only one of them that happens to be in the overlapping area of the Wastelands and the Singularity...

However, this doesn't mean much. It's like have two future Marty McFly's running around in 1955 each doing something slightly different and nothing is ever treated as weird about that. So long as they all go back to their "right time", you can have as many past/present/future versions of a character running around at the same time as you want and their own personal timelines will work out.

Speaking of which... there's at least a week (probably more) between when Zack dies and when Tifa finds Cloud according to the timeline found in the World Preview book. Zack dies in September and Tifa finds Cloud sometime in October. So... there's still plenty of time for Zack to get somehow seperated from Cloud and the Buster Sword so Remake happens how it is supposed to even with Zack alive. That doesn't really... have to majorly change anything yet. Not like Zack still *isn't* hiding from the Shinra army for starters...

 

[OWA-2]

Then explain to me why Stamp changed from a beagle to a terrier. Stamp didn't look like that in FFVII-R and once again, the writers point this out to denote something anomalous happened with Zack surviving and the Whispers being annihilated.

And if Stamp's change is symbolic of a new timline where things have changed... That's exactly what I'm saying has happened. Zack surviving is a new timeline that was caused by the split from the past being changed.



Because Stamp doesn't look like that!

Stamp doesn't have variant designs. His design was the same throughout FFVII's history. There is no other alternative Stamp. They went through great lengths to even keep that consistency within the game. So seeing a different Stamp is meant to portend something extremely strange and new has occurred.



They aren't in the singularity anymore during the ending. They exited out of it and are outside in the Midgar wastelands. On the exact same cliff area where Zack and Cloud are in CC.

There could be only one timeline though. A timeline that completely changed after the Whispers were destroyed, with the main characters being the only remains of the original one, because they were inside the singularity.

There is no concrete evidence pointing to a SPLIT timeline.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Ultimania literally says the Stamp shown in the ending isn't the "Stamp" of FFVII-R.

So it didn't change for Cloud and the others. It's still the original Stamp of FFVII-R.

That mascot's design only changed for Zack's end, seen in the ending. And they both can't simultaneously be the "true" Stamp that exists for the same world.

 

[Fiz]

Then explain to me why Stamp changed from a beagle to a terrier. Stamp didn't look like that in FFVII-R and once again, the writers point this out to denote something anomalous happened with Zack surviving and the Whispers being annihilated.

This is easy...

Destroying the Whispers caused Zack to live
Destroying the Whispers caused Biggs to live
Destroying the Whispers caused Stamp to change

Something which caused Stamps design to a Beagle changed when the Whispers were destroyed, as a result Stamp is no longer a Beagle. This functions on exactly the same terms as Zack and Biggs surviving.

Symbology: "we see that character fates have already been changed as a result of the Whispers being destroyed, but not only that, other things about the world itself have changed too".

And if Stamp's change is symbolic of a new timline where things have changed... That's exactly what I'm saying has happened. Zack surviving is a new timeline that was caused by the split from the past being changed.

Because Stamp doesn't look like that!

Stamp doesn't have variant designs. His design was the same throughout FFVII's history. There is no other alternative Stamp. They went through great lengths to even keep that consistency within the game.

Oh, I think we agree on a functional level that the past has been rewritten and Stamp is symbolic. Where we disagree is that I don't think we can assume multiple timelines and discount a single timeline because a single timeline is entirely possible and nothing disproves a single timeline and nothing proves multiple timelines.

So seeing a different Stamp is meant to portend something extremely strange and new has occurred.

Yes, I agree. That extremely strange and new thing could be an alternate timeline or it could be the past of our own timeline has changed.

They aren't in the singularity anymore during the ending. They exited out of it and are outside in the Midgar wastelands. On the exact same cliff area where Zack and Cloud are in CC.

As I said, VFX are used for past events when we see a vision that the character sees or a character is telling a story. Not when we are shown a past event that the characters cannot see or isn't being told as a story.

I still think this is super relevant, @Fiz --

Okay, I wouldn't be putting much stock into that for the reasons I raised earlier about the nature of the text.

 

[OWA-2]

The Ultimania literally says the Stamp shown in the ending isn't the "Stamp" of FFVII-R.

Link?

 

[Makoeyes987]

So if Stamp changed where Zack is because of his survival, then the reality Cloud and the others inhabit cannot be the same where Zack exists. Because their Stamp is not the one that exists with Zack. That's a contradiction of the reality of their world.

Oh, I think we agree on a functional level that the past has been rewritten and Stamp is symbolic. Where we disagree is that I don't think we can assume multiple timelines and discount a single timeline because a single timeline is entirely possible and nothing disproves a single timeline and nothing proves multiple timelines.

There are not two Stamps. Stamp is a beagle dog, or a terrier. And the terrier is a contradiction. An anomaly.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255342772153966593

And as you see in the description, Cloud and Zack from the past, are crossing paths with Cloud and the others as they flee Midgar. They specifically, clearly, state that they "pass by" each other, despite being in different time periods.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Makoeyes987 @Fiz
I think you guys probably agree as much as not since you each seem on board with the notion that defeating the Whispers caused an alternate Stamp to exist. That's not where I am, so I await you guys teaming up to take me on!

By the way, part of the reason I keep bringing that Ultimania passage up, Fiz, is because -- and I think we agree on this to some extent -- it exists to point us away from the obvious explanation that one event is happening in the present and the other in the past of that present. As I mentioned, you could show that scene to someone who has never seen Cloud and never heard of Zack, and that's absolutely the conclusion they would draw.

If we're being directed away from that for the "surprise" to just be that it was that all along ... well, that's not clever.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's not where I am, so I await you guys teaming up to take me on!

Wait, you're not? You don't think that the Stamp of Zack's time period is changed due to a butterfly effect of being an alternate timeline?

You're the one that pointed it out to me that the Stamp is different in that scene alone, which shows its clearly a different reality where that design is used for the mascot!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Wait, you're not? You don't think that the Stamp of Zack's time period is changed due to a butterfly effect of being an alternate timeline?

You're the one that pointed it out to me that the Stamp is different in that scene alone, which shows its clearly a different reality where that design is used for the mascot!

I think that other reality with the different Stamp already existed, and we just kept its Zack from dying. Fight me.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I will maintain that one of NKN's biggest weaknesses as writers is that they think they are more clever with their plots and world-building then they think they are. And Remake oozes that feeling overall. Everything to do with the Whispers and the Singularity and the timeline mess in particular.

NKN's greatest strength is writing character *interaction*... and frequently... figuring out what scenario leads to *maximized* character interaction leads to a plot that feels more like something I would expect out of them. And... I can think of few ways they could maximize character interaction than throwing Zack into the mix of AVALANCHE. That the *very few* things we know about the timeline mess doesn't exclude such a possibility (and it's one of the least convoluted explanations as well)... I think that says something. No matter what is *possible* by the world-building... that doesn't mean the creators of the story have to use the possibility to do the kind of writing they want to do. And... Nojima in particular has been steadily making FF7 less and less of a complicated plot and instead being more and more specific with how things work. I don't see that tendency changing...

BTW, there a few other clues about the *overall* timeline being different from that of the OG. But they haven't been brought up yet. And I don't feel like sharing when they're currently just "there" with no explanation in the game *at all* for what they are doing there. For all we know, they're just straight-up retcons.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think that other reality with the different Stamp already existed, and we just kept its Zack from dying. Fight me.

I mean... What's the functional difference???

Why even do that? That seems so much more convoluted than necessary!

I mean, it could be. I can't really deny that as a possibility. But that would imply there already was a timeline that existed, with Zack and everything else, going down the same road of FFVII. Why just another parallel timeline that redundantly exists?

 

[OWA-2]

The Ultimania literally says the Stamp shown in the ending isn't the "Stamp" of FFVII-R.

Link?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I already linked it.

The Stamp seen in Zack's ending is called a "contradiction," meaning it's not meant to be characterized as the original Stamp that properly exists.

If it were just Stamp "transformed," it wouldn't be categorized as said "contradiction." It's actively being called and pointed out as being in opposition to what we know is the case shows something is in opposition to what we saw in-game.

 

[cold_spirit]

I will maintain that one of NKN's biggest weaknesses as writers is that they think they are more clever with their plots and world-building then they think they are. And Remake oozes that feeling overall. Everything to do with the Whispers and the Singularity and the timeline mess in particular.

To be fair, Remake is part 1 in a series. Trying to figure out all its mysteries now is like trying to do is figure out why Cloud is so off in Midgar without knowledge of The Nibelheim Incident, the Lifestream sequence, or of Jenova's abilities (which I think is a point you brought up in another thread).

And, considering the great exposition Remake gave to other new elements, I feel like it'd be cynical to say they've already floundered with explaining its mysteries. We're just not there yet.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

What exactly happens to "contradictions" in a time-travel story varies by story. In some stories, they do just stick around, in others they transform (BTTF), in others, they go out of existence. We currently have no way of knowing what happens to "contradictions" in FFVII... yet...

It is entirely possible the "contradictions" just stick around in FFVII... and might even hint to people in the game that something odd happened. We just don't know...

 

[OWA-2]

I already linked it.

The Stamp seen in Zack's ending is called a "contradiction," meaning it's not meant to be characterized as the original Stamp that properly exists.

If it were just Stamp "transformed," it wouldn't be categorized as said "contradiction." It's actively being called and pointed out as being in opposition to what we know is the case shows something is in opposition to what we saw in-game.

This is just YOUR interpretation of what "contradiction" means in this context. But other people have different interpretations too. Learn to respect them! Your opinion is not a fact!

 

[Makoeyes987]

The point is, is that Stamp and the new Stamp cannot co-exist within the same environment or history.

It's called a contradiction for that reason. Just like the FFVII Cloud existing simultaneously with a living Zack who doesn't pass on the Buster Sword with his death.

A transformation wouldn't be highlighted or denoted as a clear contradiction of its appearance, if it were simply just "the same." Just like Cloud somehow having his past changed with Zack being alive isn't the context either.

If it were, then how does it make sense to highlight the difference in the first place? It's anomalous for a reason. The world Zack exists in, has a Stamp that is different than the world of FFVII-R. That means something, particularly that he is in another world separate from the Remake. If you have a clearer explanation, then you're more than welcome to say it.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Out of curiosity, how many of y’all have watched or played Steins;Gate?

 

[Odysseus]

I've watched it. I don't see this turning into a story about trying and failing to prevent Aerith's death though lol.

 

[OWA-2]

The point is, is that Stamp and the new Stamp cannot co-exist within the same environment or history.

It's called a contradiction for that reason. Just like the FFVII Cloud existing simultaneously with a living Zack who doesn't pass on the Buster Sword with his death.

A transformation wouldn't be highlighted or denoted as a clear contradiction of its appearance, if it were simply just "the same." Just like Cloud somehow having his past changed with Zack being alive isn't the context either.

If it were, then how does it make sense to highlight the difference in the first place? It's anomalous for a reason. The world Zack exists in, has a Stamp that is different than the world of FFVII-R. That means something, particularly that he is in another world separate from the Remake. If you have a clearer explanation, then you're more than welcome to say it.

I noticed just now that the link you posted, just says that "this version of Stamp contradicts the previous design seen in the game". This simple quote about Stamp's design, doesn't prove anything you're saying.

Seriously dude, stop with the gatekeeping.
People are allowed to have different interpretations than yours.