Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[KindOfBlue]

I've watched it. I don't see this turning into a story about trying and failing to prevent Aerith's death though lol.

Me neither lol although there’s a fair bit of discussion about whether or not Cloud will save Aerith or at least try to save her especially with all the discourse around “Hollow” but my comparison is more to do with how they handle the time travel mechanics, I wonder if that could have been an inspiration depending on how it ends up being handled in FF7R

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's not what "gatekeeping" means.

Pointing out the fact it's a contradiction, means its aberrant and not the original Stamp. That's just a simple course of analysis of the story. Even the Material Ultimania artbook has the two Stamps separate, with one being the "original" Stamp, and the "other" Stamp seen only in the ending. They are two separate ones that exist in two separate contexts. They don't just exist within the same world, the same as the "other" Cloud and Zack, otherwise the writers wouldn't specifically point out, "This Stamp isn't the one that exists before, how strange..."

 

[OWA-2]

That's not what "gatekeeping" means.

Pointing out the fact it's a contradiction, means its aberrant and not the original Stamp. That's just a simple course of analysis of the story. Even the Material Ultimania artbook has the two Stamps separate, with one being the "original" Stamp, and the "other" Stamp seen only in the ending. They are two separate ones that exist in two separate contexts. They don't just exist within the same world, the same as the "other" Cloud and Zack, otherwise the writers wouldn't specifically point out, "This Stamp isn't the one that exists before, how strange..."

"Before" in the game. Because Stamp's design changed to us, the players. ?
And yes, it's not the original Stamp, because the original never existed in this new timeline. Since the Whispers died in the past, the original Stamp was never created. A second timeline doesn't need to exist(at the same time of the original one), to explain Stamp's change(to us, the players) in the game.

Ah, and I'm not saying that this is the more likely scenario for Part 2 to follow. I'm just saying that it's a possibility, among many others. But you refuse to accept any different possibility or theory that's not your own, and feels the need to 'correct' anyone who thinks otherwise, as if you were the owner of truth, and nobody should think differently. That's why I'm calling you a gatekeeper.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then if the original Stamp never existed in the "new" timeline, Zack passing the Buster Sword to Cloud never existed either.

Which creates a hard paradox that leads to Cloud not owning the Buster Sword and being "FFVII" Cloud. Despite said weapon on his back, while Zack also has the Buster Sword, who is carrying that sword along with a comatose Cloud.

That doesn't make any sense and is the exact situation the Ultimania is stating cannot be the case, since these four people do not exist in the same space and time. They offer a subtle hint at why these discordant and contradictory experiences are capable of existing. They have to have some degree of separateness, otherwise the paradox is just an unanswerable disorganized enigma.

I don't understand what you have a problem with, but that's on you. If what someone says is sensical, I can agree to it as a possibility. Hell, @The Twilight Mexican brought one up regarding Stamp being changed versus being different from the start and that certainly makes sense to me as well. Not everything is going to make sense given the information. Pointing that out and finding which works and makes sense is the purpose of discussion.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Again... we have *no idea* how the mechanics of time-travel in Remake work.

We don't know if it involves physical or mental time-travel.

We don't know what happens with "contradictions" yet.

We don't even know what *kind* of "singularity" is being talked about when it comes to the "Singularity"!

And the one proof we have of something for sure changing in the past might as well have "We're not telling you how that works (yet)!" as commentary by the devs.

Trying to say any one person's interpretation is "correct" about the end of Remake isn't even a possibility yet.

So yeah, shutting down the people who want to discuss a hpyothetical about the end Remake that is different than yours does come across as gatekeeping given how many unknowns there is about it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

We can definitely argue strongly for our interpretations and our reasonings for getting there without shutting anyone down, folks. Let's just do that.

I think that other reality with the different Stamp already existed, and we just kept its Zack from dying. Fight me.

I mean... What's the functional difference???

Well, fairly enormous, truthfully. With a timeline split, they would have been identical up to the singularity point, and that isn't necessarily the case in the other scenario.

Why even do that? That seems so much more convoluted than necessary!

I mean, it could be. I can't really deny that as a possibility. But that would imply there already was a timeline that existed, with Zack and everything else, going down the same road of FFVII. Why just another parallel timeline that redundantly exists?

I mean, you could ask the same about FFVIIR itself. It's super similar to the original setting, but has its differences even before the Whispers go away.

And in any case, alternate timelines are very "in" these days with pop culture, including the FF series. FFXV and Dissidia have had a field day and a half with them here in recent years.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not "shutting down" anyone. I asked what their explanation was. That's literally the exact opposite.

Just saying, "well maybe it's not that" isn't really a rebuttal conducive to discourse.

Well, fairly enormous, truthfully. With a timeline split, they would have been identical up to the singularity point, and that isn't necessarily the case in the other scenario.

So are you saying that what we see of whatever universe or timeline the Zack from the ending hails from, doesn't quite correspond with the Remake or the past we know of?

Given what the writers say, it's meant to represent the finale of Crisis Core and Zack's last stand as we know it. Is that not the shared past of the Remake as well?

I mean, you could ask the same about FFVIIR itself. It's super similar to the original setting, but has its differences even before the Whispers go away.

So I guess my question is, what is the terrier Stamp timeline if it isn't a branch from the Remake one? Because if it's one that existed on its own, what temporal reality does it represent?

 

[Fiz]

So if Stamp changed where Zack is because of his survival, then the reality Cloud and the others inhabit cannot be the same where Zack exists. Because their Stamp is not the one that exists with Zack. That's a contradiction of the reality of their world.

If Stamp has been changed because of defeating the Whispers then one would expect that Stamp is now different in thier own timeline, Stamp will have changed.

Cloud and co have been running around in Midgar, they see Beagle Stamp everywhere. They defeat the Whispers in the Singularity where all time is compressed, which causes the past to be changed - notably changing Zacks fate, Biggs fate and Stamps design. Now when they see Stamp he will no longer be a Beagle, he will be a Terrier, because history has been changed. Beagle Stamp no longer exists, and has been replaced with Terrier Stamp.

Another example that functions under the same idea, the group arrives at the Gold Saucer to find that Jessie is an Actress there because her father never got Mako poisoning so she never joined AVALANCHE and has no idea who we are. This is a hypothetical, because her gloves were on the side table next to Biggs. But you get the concept.

There are not two Stamps. Stamp is a beagle dog, or a terrier. And the terrier is a contradiction. An anomaly.

I wasn't suggesting there was one timeline with two Stamps, but that there might be one timeline where Stamps design has changed as a result of the Whispers being defeated, causing Beagle Stamp to cease existing, and Terrier having taken its place.

And as you see in the description, Cloud and Zack from the past, are crossing paths with Cloud and the others as they flee Midgar. They specifically, clearly, state that they "pass by" each other, despite being in different time periods.

Okay, as I pointed out its teasing us and isn't saying anything of value at all.

It says "we see Zack and Cloud and we see Zack and Aerith cross paths, this would mean two Clouds, this isn't possible." - it's saying this from a visual perspective, then makes a stupid conclusion nobody was asking with "Because the two groups were not aware of each others existance we can assume that this was not at the same time and place, but nothing else is known". In other words, because they didn't physically bump into each other they aren't physically walking into each other.

Its a literal "no shit sherlock" piece of text. We could comfortably and accurately summarise the entire text down to "that was weird wasn't it guys... we saw two groups walk right through each other... but they didn't literally walk through each other... whatever could it mean???". While there might indeed be two dimensions or two Clouds, or there might be one dimension with one Cloud and a changed past. That text tells you exactly nothing about which it could be other than to exclude Cloud and Zack literally walking into Cloud and Aerith and Co which nobody needed clarifying in the first place.

Or to put another way, if you're splitting hairs over "2 Clouds", or "Passing by each other", then you're splitting hairs over a piece of text thats saying "Because 2 Clouds didn't walk into each other therefore 2 Clouds didn't pass each other at the same time". Whether they were at the same time in different dimensions or at different times in the same dimension is unknown and unspecified.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, as I pointed out its teasing us and isn't saying anything of value at all.

You're taking its line extremely literally and limited in it's context. There is most definitely meaning in those words which explain that the characters are crossing paths yet not in the same time or space.

That's not how Ultimania descriptions of such key plot points or elements work. It never has. They aren't just talking out their ass, if it's a key element or moment of explanation, then there's meaning to it that ellucidates understanding of it.

The explanation given holds significance to the meaning of the ending scene's interpretation. Those 4 individuals crossed paths albeit in separate dimensions or whatever.

And as I said before, if Beagle Stamp changed for Cloud and the others, then that would mean the other temporal changes should occur on them as well. Cloud shouldn't be "Cloud" anymore.

Unless you're proposing they are all now in a foreign temporally altered world akin to something seen in Sliders, with alternates of themselves co-habitating the new world, which I just don't see happening as that would be extremely narratively confusing, messy and distracting to the entire FFVII story itself.

If that's what you're getting at, one completely altered timeline that has changed everything but the characters, I just don't see that being the case, although we'd ultimately have to see. I'm not even sure why they would be immune to a time change like that. That just seems arbitrary.

 

[Fiz]

You're taking its line extremely literally and limited in it's context. There is most definitely meaning in those words which explain that the characters are crossing paths yet not in the same time or space.

Exactly, the same time or place could be different dimensions or different time periods.

That's not how Ultimania descriptions of such key plot points or elements work. It never has. They aren't just talking out their ass, if it's a key element or moment of explanation, then there's meaning to it that ellucidates understanding of it.

The explanation given holds significance to the meaning of the ending scene's interpretation. Those 4 individuals crossed paths albeit in separate dimensions or whatever.

Yes, and its very ambiguous, this is my entire point. You're taking it to mean one particular thing, I'm arguing it could mean several things. The only thing it does clearly is to exclude a silly thing. I was being silly by deducing it to ridiculous terms because I'm kinda like that, but the point I was making is still accurate. The only thing is specifies is that something ridiculous is not what it is, but others are possible. The symbolic thing could easily be that Aerith is crossing paths where Zack has now survived.

And as I said before, if Beagle Stamp changed for Cloud and the others, then that would mean the other temporal changes should occur on them as well. Cloud shouldn't be "Cloud" anymore.

First, this depends upon what those temporal changes are. Zack not dying and handing over the Buster Sword does not mean Zack will not still hand over the Buster Sword becase he could hand over the Buster Sword at a later moment for a different reason.

Also, Aerith specifically said before entering the portal into the Singularity that they would be changing more than Fate itself, they would be changing themselves. Which further alludes to them changing not only the future but the past, and potentially their own pasts before that point.

Unless you're proposing they are all now in a foreign temporally altered world akin to something seen in Sliders, with alternates of themselves co-habitating the new world, which I just don't see happening as that would be extremely narratively confusing, messy and distracting to the entire FFVII story itself.

No, thats not what I'm saying. Its the exact opposite of what I'm saying, I'm saying that there are not alternates of themselves cohabiting a new world. I'm saying they have fundamentally altered the world they exist in.

If that's what you're getting at, one completely altered timeline that has changed everything but the characters, I just don't see that being the case, although we'd ultimately have to see. I'm not even sure why they would be immune to a time change like that. That just seems arbitrary.

Yes, one altered timeline - whether thats "completely altered", I suspect not. But altered none the less. And, considering Aerith explicitly said "We will be changing more than Fate itself, we will be changing ourselves", the characters will not be immune to changes. The question is to what extent and to what outcomes.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So you're saying Cloud has changed his own past by indirectly saving Zack's life, yet still is fundamentally the same as his original FFVII self, and is moving on with that radical change to his own history, to pursue Sephiroth anyways?

So Aerith should know Zack is alive too. Cloud shouldn't be impersonating a SOLDIER. And they should all then be mentioning Zack since he's no longer a missing person. That would be a massive change to what their destination and goal right now. Why would they be going separate directions?

 

[Fiz]

So you're saying Cloud has changed his own past by indirectly saving Zack's life, yet still is fundamentally the same as his original FFVII self, and is moving on with that radical change to his own history, to pursue Sephiroth anyways?

Change doesn't have to be a radical change. But stuff has changed, what that stuff is and who it affects is yet to be seen.

So Aerith should know Zack is alive too.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say yes, it certainly implied they sensed each other in that moment, and she didn't seem happy. I'm going to get to this in a moment because there is some cinematic language stuff I want to bring up thats related.

Cloud shouldn't be impersonating a SOLDIER. And they should all then be mentioning Zack since he's no longer a missing person. That would be a massive change to what their destination and goal right now. Why would they be going separate directions?

It depends on whether Cloud knows that Zack is alive, that is not a given. Also whether a change to their own past is something they would now be aware of is unknown, we do not know the mechanics of Remake in this sense yet.


Also, a point on cinematic language. Aerith said prior to entering the Singularity that they would be changing more than fate itself, they would be changing themselves. Upon exiting the singularity and seeing that Zack is alive, Zack smiles as if to sense Aerith and Aerith stops appearing to sense him. Storm clouds roll in and rain starts to fall, Aerith holds her hand out looking sad and delivers the line about missing the steel sky (or hating the sky depending on whether you're going with the JP dub).

Storm clouds and rain are classic ominous foreshadowing, it occurs as Zack crosses paths with Aerith and co. Zack smiles and Aerith looks sad, as if she senses something bad is coming. Then delivers that line which carries a subtext of not feeling comfortable with the unknown.

This implies that something about this particular change is bad news, that she senses it and because she responds to it, its probably related to her decision to change Fate and hence the past with it. I would speculate that it means its going to come at a cost to another person and that this crossing of paths is related. Possibly Zack at some point coming across Cloud and causing something bad to happen.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

One of the things time-travel stories are *always* arbitrary about is what changes and what doesn't. It's always changes that work to tell the story the author wants to tell.

Marty arranging things so his dad stands up to Biff once results in his family living in the same house... even though everything about them when it comes to overall mood and economic status stays the same. Also, his parents have the exact same number of kids with similar personalities. And no one notices Marty is *that* weird considering he now has... 18 years worth of a fundamentally different past than the rest of them do. He's even got the same girlfriend that he had in the "present" he himself is from. (Speaking of which, why does Marty not encounter this new "present" version of himself...)

Biff arranging things so his past self gets the sports almanac spirals out into him taking over the entire town, turning it into a second Las Vegas and becoming a billionaire. And killing Marty's dad so he can marry Marty's mom. In that "present" Mary is considered *weird* due to his vastly different past. (Also, this "present" Marty *does* exist seperate from the "main" "present" Marty...)

Why one past don't change *that* drastically while another does is.... entirely in service of the story that is being told... which is Marty using time-travel to make a better present/future for himself than he otherwise would have gotten the first time around. It would go against the story for his life to change so much that he wouldn't still recognize the important parts in the final timeline... (or have there be two Marty's in the final "present") so that just doesn't happen even though it's... probably more likely that it would happen realistically.

There's... currently no reason to think that kind of thing isn't going on in Remake *either*... at least... not yet... I have my suspicious about Yuffie DLC showing us what has now changed in the "present" of Remake...

 

[ultima786]

At this time, because the two are not aware of each others existence, we assume they do not exist in the same place and time. But, at this point nothing more is known.

If that sounds like an absurd answer to the Zack question then thats because they gave an absurd answer. It's basically saying "neah, we aren't answering this yet".

My gut tells me the same: that they are purposely saying something cheeky to throw us off as to what is really happening. It does not tell us much except, "The ending scene is weird, and these two groups of people aren't noticing each other, which btw is obvious. We ASSUME (and maybe wrongly!!!! or maybe rightly????) that they don't exist in the same place and time.... ooooooooh mysterious ain't it?"

My hope is that this scene is a prior cycle of history, and Aerith has to learn from history to solve the Crisis for good. Or perhaps it's a Lifestream alternate possibility, and Aerith has to learn from that also. Both would be fine with me.

 

[LNK]

My hope is that this scene is a prior cycle of history

Which is still what I think too

 

[Roundhouse]

The loop theory is definitely interesting. Most have abandoned it at this point, but who knows?

 

[ultima786]

The loop theory is definitely interesting. Most have abandoned it at this point, but who knows?

Not me. Alternate realities (at least, being described with 'time' language) is too foreign to OG lore. They are doing something with Lifestream, perhaps via memory or false memory.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I really hope the Yuffie DLC gives us a more concrete sense of what direction to expect from this topic in Part 2. I can't survive another years-long LTD -- meaning "Lost Timeline Debate" in this case ...

 

[KindOfBlue]

On a similar note to what @Obsidian Fire wrote about arbitrary changes, I’ll just throw this idea out there. Maybe ground zero for the emergence of the Whispers is not Zack’s death, but rather something that happens earlier...

• Sephiroth becomes aware of the future while in the Lifestream after being defeated by Cloud at the Nibelheim reactor, and from there, he begins working towards averting his fate, which the planet responds to by creating the Whispers
• The Whispers, therefore, have only existed since the time of Sephiroth’s defeat onward
• Aerith is able to immediately detect the Whispers due to her Cetra powers, and every time they touch her, she gains knowledge of the future but loses her own humanity due to becoming more and more omniscient
• Afraid of altering the course of destiny, Aerith complies with the will of the Whispers while Sephiroth grows stronger and stronger in the Lifestream as the years go by
• Zack escapes from Nibelheim with Cloud and is killed by the Shinra security forces, one of many events that the Whispers have ensured since the moment Sephiroth became aware of the future
• Fast forward to the Midgar Expressway, Sephiroth is now at full power and has used his abilities to show Aerith Zack’s final moments, where she realizes that the Whispers that she’s been following along with have also forced Zack’s death to happen
• Resolved to stop Sephiroth and the Whispers to create a new future, she creates a singularity that allows herself, Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII to retain their memories of life before the singularity
• Defeating the Whispers causes history to be altered starting from after Sephiroth’s defeat onwards due to the Whispers no longer interfering with destiny, as shown from them disappearing from Zack’s final stand but possibly also disappearing from other moments throughout the 4-5 years leading up to FF7
• Everybody’s memories, excluding those inside the singularity, are rewritten to account for the planet’s new history, but the party only retains their old memories which creates dissonance between what they remember and what has actually happened in the last 5 years of this new reality
• Although many events of the last 5 years have changed, many have stayed the same: Stamp’s design is indirectly changed through the butterfly effect sometime during Zack and Cloud’s captivity, Jessie never joins Avalanche and has no memory of the gang, and even though the Sector 7 platefall still happens, Biggs survives this time
• Zack has now brought Cloud to Midgar but something else happens to him (perhaps he gets captured?) resulting in Cloud being left with the Buster Sword
• Cloud does not remember how he got the sword because he was still in a coma and even if he wasn’t, he would only have his memories from before the singularity rather than acquiring any new rewritten memories like everybody outside of the singularity
• Aerith realizes that Zack is now alive but is now unsure of what the future holds with the Whispers no longer around to guide her
• The rest of the story proceeds largely as originally written, but now the devs can pick and choose which elements to expand on and which elements to tell completely new stories with

Of course, this is all probably wrong but who the heck knows for sure at this point

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@KindOfBlue
Don't forget that Marlene is still with Elmyra in the ending. That almost certainly shouldn't be the case under the proposed direction.

As for Stamp, his design has been the same for at least 15 years, as shown by the undisturbed stuff in Ifalna and Aerith's old room.

 

[KindOfBlue]

@KindOfBlue
Don't forget that Marlene is still with Elmyra in the ending. That almost certainly shouldn't be the case under the proposed direction.

As for Stamp, his design has been the same for at least 15 years, as shown by the undisturbed stuff in Ifalna and Aerith's old room.

As contrived as it may be, I don’t think this new reality necessarily discounts the possibility of the Sector 7 platefall and Shinra HQ infiltration playing out largely the same way resulting in Marlene ending up with Elmyra anyways, though in my scenario Stamp’s logo gets changed during the time Zack and Cloud are still in captivity so I figure that would be enough time for new chip bags to be in circulation by the time they escape

 

[Roger]

@KindOfBlue The way Nanaki speaks about the Whispers makes me doubt they are something brandnew introduced to the world 5 years ago.

Also if the party only have memories of the Whispers timeline, the one that caused them enter the singularity and exit it on the cliff face, why does there need to be some contrived reason for Cloud ending up with the Buster Sword in the other timeline he doesn't remember anyway? I feel like that is needlessly combining two explanations. They wouldn't end up in the exact same spot as they did after the Whisper/Sephiroth fight if there was no Whisper/Sephiroth fight, they probably wouldn't even be leaving Midgar, or be the same party of five. The Cloud that woke up to Zack being very much alive instead of dead must spontanously disappear from this reality and the Buster Sword and Tifa, Barret, Aerith and Red XIII along with him, to be displaced by the Cloud, ect. we played in Remake. No reason he needs to end up with the Buster Sword before that time.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As contrived as it may be, I don’t think this new reality necessarily discounts the possibility of the Sector 7 platefall and Shinra HQ infiltration playing out largely the same way resulting in Marlene ending up with Elmyra anyways, though in my scenario Stamp’s logo gets changed during the time Zack and Cloud are still in captivity so I figure that would be enough time for new chip bags to be in circulation by the time they escape

Zack: "Stamp?! What did those bastards do to you, boy??"

 

[Fiz]

My gut tells me the same: that they are purposely saying something cheeky to throw us off as to what is really happening. It does not tell us much except, "The ending scene is weird, and these two groups of people aren't noticing each other, which btw is obvious. We ASSUME (and maybe wrongly!!!! or maybe rightly????) that they don't exist in the same place and time.... ooooooooh mysterious ain't it?"

My hope is that this scene is a prior cycle of history, and Aerith has to learn from history to solve the Crisis for good. Or perhaps it's a Lifestream alternate possibility, and Aerith has to learn from that also. Both would be fine with me.

That would be cool

The loop theory is definitely interesting. Most have abandoned it at this point, but who knows?

I still consider time loops to be a possibility and its my preferred direction.

One of the things time-travel stories are *always* arbitrary about is what changes and what doesn't. It's always changes that work to tell the story the author wants to tell.

Marty arranging things so his dad stands up to Biff once results in his family living in the same house... even though everything about them when it comes to overall mood and economic status stays the same. Also, his parents have the exact same number of kids with similar personalities. And no one notices Marty is *that* weird considering he now has... 18 years worth of a fundamentally different past than the rest of them do. He's even got the same girlfriend that he had in the "present" he himself is from. (Speaking of which, why does Marty not encounter this new "present" version of himself...)

Biff arranging things so his past self gets the sports almanac spirals out into him taking over the entire town, turning it into a second Las Vegas and becoming a billionaire. And killing Marty's dad so he can marry Marty's mom. In that "present" Mary is considered *weird* due to his vastly different past. (Also, this "present" Marty *does* exist seperate from the "main" "present" Marty...)

Why one past don't change *that* drastically while another does is.... entirely in service of the story that is being told... which is Marty using time-travel to make a better present/future for himself than he otherwise would have gotten the first time around. It would go against the story for his life to change so much that he wouldn't still recognize the important parts in the final timeline... (or have there be two Marty's in the final "present") so that just doesn't happen even though it's... probably more likely that it would happen realistically.

There's... currently no reason to think that kind of thing isn't going on in Remake *either*... at least... not yet... I have my suspicious about Yuffie DLC showing us what has now changed in the "present" of Remake...

Yes, exactly. Things will only be changed to the extent they want them changed, so even if the past is rewritten it doesnt mean everything has to be different, it'll be whatever they choose to be different will be different.

The way we've seen actual change occur in Remake so far, its been subtle butterfly effects like Aerith puts the flower on Clouds top, causing Tifa to notice it and Cloud to give it to Tifa instead of Marlene, causing Marlene not to warm to him, causing Barret not to trust him, leading to Wedge having a spare grappling hook, leading to Wedge surviving his fall from the plate, leading to Wedge being able to help Aerith evacuate Sector 7 resulting in some hundreds of saved lives, but still this is some hundreds from 50,000 that were originally lost.

Thats a small ripple that leads to a significant but not earth shattering change. I'd imagine thats a clue to their direction with how change might be written.

Not me. Alternate realities (at least, being described with 'time' language) is too foreign to OG lore. They are doing something with Lifestream, perhaps via memory or false memory.

They are quite, a possible loop was speculated from OG anyway (irrespective of what the fanbase decided) so at least that fits and makes sense. I also think with the future visions this is more indicative of time being overwritten / time loops than it is of multiverses. If it is a multiverse, I'd say we are into time travelling, time looping, multiverses. Which is just asking for a hot mess.

 

[Fiz]

On a similar note to what @Obsidian Fire wrote about arbitrary changes, I’ll just throw this idea out there. Maybe ground zero for the emergence of the Whispers is not Zack’s death, but rather something that happens earlier...

• Sephiroth becomes aware of the future while in the Lifestream after being defeated by Cloud at the Nibelheim reactor, and from there, he begins working towards averting his fate, which the planet responds to by creating the Whispers
• The Whispers, therefore, have only existed since the time of Sephiroth’s defeat onward
• Aerith is able to immediately detect the Whispers due to her Cetra powers, and every time they touch her, she gains knowledge of the future but loses her own humanity due to becoming more and more omniscient
• Afraid of altering the course of destiny, Aerith complies with the will of the Whispers while Sephiroth grows stronger and stronger in the Lifestream as the years go by
• Zack escapes from Nibelheim with Cloud and is killed by the Shinra security forces, one of many events that the Whispers have ensured since the moment Sephiroth became aware of the future
• Fast forward to the Midgar Expressway, Sephiroth is now at full power and has used his abilities to show Aerith Zack’s final moments, where she realizes that the Whispers that she’s been following along with have also forced Zack’s death to happen
• Resolved to stop Sephiroth and the Whispers to create a new future, she creates a singularity that allows herself, Cloud, Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII to retain their memories of life before the singularity
• Defeating the Whispers causes history to be altered starting from after Sephiroth’s defeat onwards due to the Whispers no longer interfering with destiny, as shown from them disappearing from Zack’s final stand but possibly also disappearing from other moments throughout the 4-5 years leading up to FF7
• Everybody’s memories, excluding those inside the singularity, are rewritten to account for the planet’s new history, but the party only retains their old memories which creates dissonance between what they remember and what has actually happened in the last 5 years of this new reality
• Although many events of the last 5 years have changed, many have stayed the same: Stamp’s design is indirectly changed through the butterfly effect sometime during Zack and Cloud’s captivity, Jessie never joins Avalanche and has no memory of the gang, and even though the Sector 7 platefall still happens, Biggs survives this time
• Zack has now brought Cloud to Midgar but something else happens to him (perhaps he gets captured?) resulting in Cloud being left with the Buster Sword
• Cloud does not remember how he got the sword because he was still in a coma and even if he wasn’t, he would only have his memories from before the singularity rather than acquiring any new rewritten memories like everybody outside of the singularity
• Aerith realizes that Zack is now alive but is now unsure of what the future holds with the Whispers no longer around to guide her
• The rest of the story proceeds largely as originally written, but now the devs can pick and choose which elements to expand on and which elements to tell completely new stories with

Of course, this is all probably wrong but who the heck knows for sure at this point

I think this is interesting, and while not necesarilly the thing, something treading these lines being the concept.

@KindOfBlue
Don't forget that Marlene is still with Elmyra in the ending. That almost certainly shouldn't be the case under the proposed direction.

How so? Zack can still hand Cloud the Buster Sword, Cloud and Avalanche still end up teamed up, platefall still occurs. But, changes amongst those events occur.

Theoretically:

Zack gets a still comatose Cloud to Midgar, something happens re Zack that leads to Cloud obtaining the Buster Sword and meeting Tifa, the rest continues largely as it did before. I have a possible Zack theory which I'll put in its own post.

@KindOfBlue
As for Stamp, his design has been the same for at least 15 years, as shown by the undisturbed stuff in Ifalna and Aerith's old room.

It's irrelevant though, when time is unwritten anything we see up until the rewrite is retroactively changed. Stamp has been a Beagle for 15 years, then when time gets rewritten something causes Stamps design to change from the point of change onwards. So whatever design we see for Stamp before the Singularity is irrelevant, his design could have been changed as little as 5 years ago. There is nothing to dictate that there is a Terrier Stamp and some old, now vintage, Beagle Stamp's lying around.

For example:
Stamps design is concieved 15 years ago. Jane is head of Shinra Marketing, she likes the Beagle and keeps Stamps design. The design is a Beagle from 15 years ago until the present day.

Time gets rewritten in the Singularity creating "Remake Time".

A ripple causes Jane to leave Shinra 5 years ago and John to become Head of Marketing at Shinra. He changes Stamps design to a Terrier. Stamps design has now changed from a point 5 years ago until the present. Old Stamp from any point before 5 years ago remains the same.

If you want to edit that to 15 years ago, so the ripple causes the same change in events 15 years ago, then all Stamps will change from 15 years ago and all Stamps will change as a result. So the Beagle Stamps in Aerith's room will change to a Terrier.

@KindOfBlue The way Nanaki speaks about the Whispers makes me doubt they are something brandnew introduced to the world 5 years ago.

That depends, it's entirely possible nobody knows the answer to that question, not even Aerith. One thing I find interesting is in an interview they said that maybe Aerith had a bad past experience with them. This implies they have been there for some time, it could also allude to something else, if we want to get into time loops. That bad past experience could be her own death, where they have ensured it happens over and over.

This is then compatible with something like the @KindOfBlue theory. The loop would begin somewhere, but probably not in the moment of Remakes beginning, and probably not from the beginning of time either. The loop could begin at the 5 year point, or it could be variable if the loop is caused by Sephiroth time travelling.

It would also answer how "all of time" isn't grossly rewritten, the only time affected could then plausibly be isolated to the looping fragment of time.

Dunno what terms to use but I'll use "normal time" and "abnormal time", where "normal time" refers to the period of time a loop fragment takes up, and "abnormal time" for the period of time if you were to trace the loops back to their beginning. This could theoretically make the Whispers only 5 years old in "normal time" but much, much older in "abnormal time", say 1000 years old, or 10 years old.

It could answer a number of other questions too. Such as Aeriths foresight, how that foresight appears to develop and be patchy rather than being entirely present from the beginning. If her foresight is coming from imprints of past iterations, or she holds broken memories of past iterations because they vary. She could potentially know all past iterations but because of variations she cannot be certain of anything for this iteration.

On the latter, Fate can be subverted, Aerith did it with Wedge and Sector 7. So its possible in a time loop scenario that Aerith has been going through this journey over and over, making small subtle changes to "help" make things better but still arriving at the same ultimate conclusions, but only this time, in this particular iteration of the loop she has agreed to Sephiroths gambit (which I think Remake is, a big gamble for both Aerith and Sephiroth).

Also if the party only have memories of the Whispers timeline, the one that caused them enter the singularity and exit it on the cliff face, why does there need to be some contrived reason for Cloud ending up with the Buster Sword in the other timeline he doesn't remember anyway? I feel like that is needlessly combining two explanations. They wouldn't end up in the exact same spot as they did after the Whisper/Sephiroth fight if there was no Whisper/Sephiroth fight, they probably wouldn't even be leaving Midgar, or be the same party of five. The Cloud that woke up to Zack being very much alive instead of dead must spontanously disappear from this reality and the Buster Sword and Tifa, Barret, Aerith and Red XIII along with him, to be displaced by the Cloud, ect. we played in Remake. No reason he needs to end up with the Buster Sword before that time.

This is part of what leads me into a single timeline. Multiple timelines would if they crossover cause duplications and they would be crossing over at some point.

In a single timeline with past edits, none of this matters, provided key events still lead to the required endpoints then it all slots into place as it needs to. It doesn't even need a massive, contrived explanation. As little as "something happens re Zack at Midgar, giving Cloud the Buster Sword" satisfies this, the rest is then where it needs to be for the events that occurred during Remake to have happened.

Thats not contrived at all, all its done is to move "Cloud, you are my living legacy" from a death on a cliff to some place in or near Midgar, and I suspect whatever that "thing re Zack" is will likely form the catalyst for whatever journey we will experience with Zack during Remake.