Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[The Twilight Mexican]

Did somebody @ me?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As helpful as Audrey is though, it would be nice if she and others quoted the Japanese alongside their translation so that it can be discussed and even scrutinised. Especially when that text is being cryptic or coy.

I finally got that transcribed for you:

さちにエンディングでは、 「意識のないクラウドをかついだザック ス」と「ミッドガルを発つクラウドとエアリス」がすれちがう。これが本来あり得ない光景なのは、クラウドが同時にふたり存在する点からも明らか。このとき、両者がお互いの存在を認識していないため、彼らは同一の場所や時間にいるわけではないと推測されるものの、現時点ではそれ以上のことはわからない。

Google Translate:
In the ending, "Zacks with an unconscious Cloud" and "Cloud and Aeris leaving Midgar" pass each other. It is clear from the fact that there are two Clouds at the same time that this is an unlikely sight. At this time, since they are not aware of each other's existence, it is presumed that they are not in the same place or time, but at this point, nothing more is known.

 

[Fiz]

I finally got that transcribed for you:

さちにエンディングでは、 「意識のないクラウドをかついだザック ス」と「ミッドガルを発つクラウドとエアリス」がすれちがう。これが本来あり得ない光景なのは、クラウドが同時にふたり存在する点からも明らか。このとき、両者がお互いの存在を認識していないため、彼らは同一の場所や時間にいるわけではないと推測されるものの、現時点ではそれ以上のことはわからない。

Google Translate:
In the ending, "Zacks with an unconscious Cloud" and "Cloud and Aeris leaving Midgar" pass each other. It is clear from the fact that there are two Clouds at the same time that this is an unlikely sight. At this time, since they are not aware of each other's existence, it is presumed that they are not in the same place or time, but at this point, nothing more is known.

Okay, this might not be a satisfying opinion for anyone. My opinion on this is that it's trying to get us to speculate over whether the two scenes exist in different dimensions or whether they exist in different points in time without really giving anything either way. You can read it in two ways. It's teasing.


If I break it down as literally as possible:

さちにエンディングでは、 「意識のないクラウドをかついだザック ス」と「ミッドガルを発つクラウドとエアリス」がすれちがう。
In the ending, "Zack carring an unconcious Cloud over his shoulder" and "Cloud and Aerith leaving Midgar" pass by each other.

これが本来あり得ない光景なのは、クラウドが同時にふたり存在する点からも明らか
This is an impossible scene, because there are two Clouds at the same time.

Lit: Its impossible for Cloud and Zack and Cloud and Aerith to physically pass this location because that would mean we have two Clouds at the same time.


このとき、両者がお互いの存在を認識していないため、彼らは同一の場所や時間にいるわけではないと推測されるものの、現時点ではそれ以上のことはわからない。
At this time, because the two are not aware of each others existance, we assume they do not exist in the same place and time. But, at this point nothing more is known.

Lit: Because we didn't end up with two Clouds standing in front of each other, the two do not exist in the same place and time (obviously).

This could refer to two Clouds or two scenes not existing in the same place and time. It could mean there are two Clouds in two dimensions, it could mean there is one Cloud in two different time periods, or even two Clouds in the same universe at different time points. Then saying, speculate.

 

[KindOfBlue]

This could refer to two Clouds or two scenes not existing in the same place and time. It could mean there are two Clouds in two dimensions, it could mean there is one Cloud in two different time periods, or even two Clouds in the same universe at different time points. Then saying, speculate.

That’s pretty much been my takeaway the whole time, which is why in terms of whether or not we actually are dealing with two parallel timelines or one altered timeline or whatever, I’m still in that “I have no clue, let’s see” area

 

[Fiz]

That’s pretty much been my takeaway the whole time, which is why in terms of whether or not we actually are dealing with two parallel timelines or one altered timeline or whatever, I’m still in that “I have no clue, let’s see” area

Yeah, this is why I wanted the original Japanese to see for myself. Audreys translation is accurate (I have some comments though), I never doubted that, but you can read her translation in two ways. Also, when a translation gets "beautified" or the translator tries to make sense of something ambiguous, that ambiguity can become a little bit obscured.

The Japanese is literally saying "It looked like Cloud and Zack and Cloud and Aerith were walking into each other", it responds "because they didn't then its not the case that there are two Clouds about to walk into each other, therefore... speculate... har har har har"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

At the very least, it's either that two Clouds (and a living Zack) now exist in the same timeline; or we're looking into two universes simultaneously.

I say it has to be one of those for the simple reason that no one watching that scene -- even if they knew nothing of FFVII and hadn't seen anything of VIIR up to that point -- would be more inclined to look at it and think "Why doesn't that blonde guy notice that other guy who looks just like him??"/"Why isn't anyone asking that black-haired dude if he's okay or needs help??" instead of "Oh, this is probably some kind of flashback."

The average person has been exposed to enough cinematic shorthand to pick up on that without experiencing any confusion or needing any guidance to recognize that those folks aren't able to see one another.

The fact then being that the developers have made a point to call our attention to the matter as one of the game's four big mysteries -- compounded by what we know was supposed to happen there, yet didn't (i.e. Zack dying and Cloud inheriting his sword) -- tells us what we must be dealing with. We know from the way the Ultimania talks about it that it's not a simple flashback, so we're either looking at what's happening at that moment across two timelines or there's now a second Cloud (and Aerith, and Tifa, etc.) in the city our crew is walking away from ... and our crew has essentially become strangers in their own universe, as its history warped to accommodate significant changes around them while leaving them the same because they were in the singularity.

I think the latter is an exceedingly unlikely direction for numerous, numerous reasons, some of which I've already gone over in this discussion (i.e. Marlene and Sector 7's statuses remaining the same) and some I haven't -- e.g. having doubles of (eventually half) our playable cast, but both sets all native to the same timeline, sounds like a derailment from the original story that would be guaranteed to lose the original plot and its emotional center.

I obviously can't say it won't happen, but man, that just sounds like a bridge way too far.

 

[Fiz]

At the very least, it's either that two Clouds (and a living Zack) now exist in the same timeline; or we're looking into two universes simultaneously.

...

I say it has to be one of those for the simple reason that no one watching that scene -- even if they knew nothing of FFVII and hadn't seen anything of VIIR up to that point -- would be more inclined to look at it and think "Why doesn't that blonde guy notice that other guy who looks just like him??"/"Why isn't anyone asking that black-haired dude if he's okay or needs help??" instead of "Oh, this is probably some kind of flashback."

I know... but... thats literally what they're saying and yes, it sounds ridiculous. If I were to take a random punt, I would imagine they're grinning while they say it. As a reader its one of those answers that leaves you like "well, thank you for pointing out the bleeding obvious and giving us nothing".


First sentence:

さちにエンディングでは、 「意識のないクラウドをかついだザック ス」と「ミッドガルを発つクラウドとエアリス」がすれちがう。これが本来あり得ない光景なのは、クラウドが同時にふたり存在する点からも明らか

"In the ending, "Zack carring an unconcious Cloud over his shoulder" and "Cloud and Aerith leaving Midgar" pass by each other. This is an impossible scene, because there are two Clouds at the same time."

They're raising that there are two Clouds in this scene, and that they pass by each other, and that this isn't possible because 2 Clouds isn't possible.


このとき、両者がお互いの存在を認識していないため、彼らは同一の場所や時間にいるわけではないと推測されるものの、現時点ではそれ以上のことはわからない。

At this time, because the two are not aware of each others existance, we assume they do not exist in the same place and time. But, at this point nothing more is known.

Just unpack that. This is literally saying that because the two groups were not aware of each others presence in that moment (as known because the thing you just raised didn't happen) that the two groups do not exist in that same time and location and that anything beyond that is unknown.

If that sounds like an absurd answer to the Zack question then thats because they gave an absurd answer. It's basically saying "neah, we aren't answering this yet".

The average person has been exposed to enough cinematic shorthand to pick up on that without experiencing any confusion or needing any guidance to recognize that those folks aren't able to see one another.

Yep, and I think its intentional. Instead of giving clarity on the situation or ruling out a plausible scenario, they've ruled out a silly one that nobody other than the cinematically illiterate would assume to be the case. They've done this because they're dicking with us over it.

The fact then being that the developers have made a point to call our attention to the matter as one of the game's four big mysteries -- compounded by what we know was supposed to happen there, yet didn't (i.e. Zack dying and Cloud inheriting his sword) -- tells us what we must be dealing with. We know from the way the Ultimania talks about it that it's not a simple flashback

Well, its not a simple flashback either way, its either a multiverse, history being rewritten from under their feet or something very trippy.

, so we're either looking at what's happening at that moment across two timelines or there's now a second Cloud (and Aerith, and Tifa, etc.) in the city our crew is walking away from ... and our crew has essentially become strangers in their own universe, as its history warped to accommodate significant changes around them while leaving them the same because they were in the singularity.

There are 4 clear possibilities:

1. A living Zack and Cloud exist in an alternate timeline (multiple dimensions)
2. History has been rewritten from beneath their feet in their own timeline, so now Zack is alive in their own timeline
3. They are in the singularity where things are different but there are not multiple versions of the characters (this is still multiverse but you don't get duplicates where they merge - i.e. in the singularity which might be a prime universe... compression if you like)
4. They have crossed over into another timeline (still multiverse) where there are duplicates of themselves


For clarity on 3, basically this would be that there was a multiverse but we've just compressed it into one prime universe.

I think the latter is an exceedingly unlikely direction for numerous, numerous reasons, some of which I've already gone over in this discussion (i.e. Marlene and Sector 7's statuses remaining the same) and some I haven't -- e.g. having doubles of (eventually half) our playable cast, but both sets all native to the same timeline, sounds like a derailment from the original story that would be guaranteed to lose the original plot and its emotional center.

I would say this (my number 4) is unlikely but the other 3 are possible.

 

[OWA-2]

I think most of us use "sequel" to mean "occurs successively in a fictional continuity's sequence of events." By our (mostly) common understanding that Remake is -- as a matter of cause and effect -- happening because the original game's sequence of events happened, that fulfills the qualification.

I disagree that the OG already happened. Yes, a version of the story already happened(or was supposed to happen) before the Whispers were destroyed, but it wasn't the one from the OG. Because if that was the case, we would see Whispers at Jessie's house, the coliseum, the sewers(second visit), etc.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But they did answer it.

The four characters aren't in the same place at the same time. That's a definitive answer.

The mechanics of how that functions is the mystery. But they clarify the point that no, they are not literally crossing each other and just casually ignoring each other.

 

[Fiz]

But they did answer it.

The four characters aren't in the same place at the same time. That's a definitive answer.

The mechanics of how that functions is the mystery. But they clarify the point that no, they are not literally crossing each other and just casually ignoring each other.

Yes, I agree, but as TwilightMexican pointed out, thats answering a stupid point because obviously they aren't physically in the same time and location in that moment. Yet, thats what they clarified and left all other options on the table.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But there were people who thought it was a flashback or vision. Quite a few, including myself.

This clarifies that it isn't.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There are 4 clear possibilities:

...

3. They are in the singularity where things are different but there are not multiple versions of the characters (this is still multiverse but you don't get duplicates where they merge - i.e. in the singularity which might be a prime universe... compression if you like)

We've already seen that there would now be a double of Cloud, though. Why not the others who were with him?

Either way, even if it's just he who got doubled, I think my concern remains that it would compromise the original plot and its emotional center too much.

 

[Fiz]

But there were people who thought it was a flashback or vision. Quite a few, including myself.

This clarifies that it isn't.

It doesn't clarify that it was not a flashback of a changed past though. How does it clarify that it was not a vision of a changed past?

We've already seen that there would now be a double of Cloud, though. Why not the others who were with him?

Either way, even if it's just he who got doubled, I think my concern remains that it would compromise the original plot and its emotional center too much.

I don't think there are doubles of characters. 1, 2 and 3 are possible. 4 is possible but unlikely because it would be a shit show

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes it does clarify.

Because that ending is the aftermath of Zack surviving his final battle that should have killed him.

The final battle against the Arbiters of Fate and Sephiroth and Zack's last stand happened simultaneously. And the consequences of that fight allowed Zack to live.

So they passed the same space, simultaneously.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think there are doubles of characters. 1, 2 and 3 are possible. 4 is possible but unlikely because it would be a shit show

I'm not sure I follow. We've already seen that there's a second Cloud who did not inherit the Buster Sword when "our" Cloud did.

What are you suggesting then became of that Cloud? He's either in another timeline or he's back in Midgar, being a duplicate of our Cloud.

 

[Fiz]

Yes it does clarify.

Because that ending is the aftermath of Zack surviving his final battle that should have killed him.

The final battle against the Arbiters of Fate and Sephiroth and Zack's last stand happened simultaneously. And the consequences of that fight allowed Zack to live.

So they passed the same space, simultaneously.

You presume they happened simultaneously, but that is not a given, nor is it the most likely or least likely. There are multiple possible scenarios and frankly they're all valid.

Scenario 1:
Its possible that we saw a vision of Zacks Last Stand happening in an alternate timeline that was taking place at the same time as they were about to enter the singularity, then Zack surviving his Last Stand after the battle. That might be a thing.

In this scenario we have at least two timelines.


Scenario 2:
Its also possible that the vision Aerith recieved of Zacks Last Stand was of their own timeline in the past (basically, Aerith recieved a vision that offered confirmation of what had happened to Zack). Then the vision we saw after the battle was the result of unwiring the past from the singularity. Therefore was a vision of the changed past which we saw and Aerith sensed. Note that Aerith would likely be aware of the Whispers being present and that his past fate could be changed.

In this scenario we have one timeline that has been edited in the past and into the unknown in the future, but any edits of the past are now unknown.


Scenario 3:
The Singularity is either a merge of all timelines or defeating fate merges all timelines into one, so the timelines have compressed into one new timeline where we have one version of each character but shit has changed. Scenario 1 functionally becomes Scenario 2 through merging of all timelines in the Singularity.


Scenario 4:
There are multiple timelines (as per 1), but the group exited the Singularity into the Zack timeline (I'm forgetting which dog is which, lol... Terrier Timeline) and now there are multiple characters in one timeline. Not likely IMO because... shitshow.

I'm not sure I follow. We've already seen that there's a second Cloud who did not inherit the Buster Sword when "our" Cloud did.

What are you suggesting then became of that Cloud? He's either in another timeline or he's back in Midgar, being a duplicate of our Cloud.

There is nothing to tell us that there are two Clouds, they may just be one and the two Clouds we saw could easily be the same Cloud.

Cloud not inheriting the Buster Sword in that moment does not conclude that Cloud did not inherit the Buster Sword. This is the very essence of changing fate (and changing the past). As we know, Zack dies, and hands Cloud the Buster Sword. If Zack doesn't die, then anything from that point is unknown.

You can still get from Zack surviving to Cloud having the Buster Sword and being recruited by Tifa. Easy answer... Zack might have handed the Buster Sword to Cloud upon arriving at Midgar and gone undercover or into hiding.



My entire thrust here is that we don't know. We are now into unknown territory with both the story going forward and details about the past.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They did happen simultaneously because the Whispers were present at the exact spot of Zack's last stand, and at the same moment Cloud and the others defeat Sephiroth and all the Whispers he's absorbed, they explode in a flash of golden light...

And the Whispers in Zack's time and place explode at the exact same moment.

The Singularity is a place affixed in time, simultaneously in the past, present and future. That's why the events that occurred there reverberated and occurred in the past. That's whats shown in the ending when Zack sees the exact same dome of Whispers explode in white light which happens at the same time in the Singularity and the present.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Fiz
Even with the Ultimania being deliberately coy, "the fact that there are two Clouds at the same time" seems as straightforward a statement as anything in this scenario can be. That premise offered there is what my theorizing is being filtered through.

 

[Odysseus]

Two clouds being in the same place at the same time isn't even a big deal, I've seen like 20+ before on nice days.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Two clouds being in the same place at the same time isn't even a big deal, I've seen like 20+ before on nice days.

We're not talking about your collection at the moment. =P

 

[Fiz]

They did happen simultaneously because the Whispers were present at the exact spot of Zack's last stand, and at the same moment Cloud and the others defeat Sephiroth and all the Whispers he's absorbed, they explode in a flash of golden light...

And the Whispers in Zack's time and place explode at the exact same moment.

Okay, I don't think this is quite right and I think even if you're right about multiverse theory, that Zacks Last Stand was still a past event that has been changed.

1. We see Zack at the start of the Last Stand, the Whispers appear to ensure he meets his fate (past vision shown to Aerith)

2. We enter the singularity, defeat fate and then fight Sephiroth (Singularity is outside of time and space, events here reverberate in the past, resent and future. Whispers exist as entities outside of time and space)

3. We see Zack survive the Last Stand, but the whispers are still present, they explode behind him and we see them vapourise. Zack did not survive The Last Stand because we destroyed the Whispers, but because they were busy dealing with the stuff going down in the Singularity. If we hadn't won then the Whispers would have came over and finished Zack off. Because the singularity and whispers exist outside of normal time and space then this sequence can indeed be in the past either in their own timeline or some other timeline.

4. We see Zack carrying Cloud indicating that Zack did indeed survive and his fate has changed. Aerith senses Zack. There is nothing to disprove or prove this to be a past vision.

The Singularity is a place affixed in time, simultaneously in the past, present and future. That's why the events that occurred there reverberated and occurred in the past. That's whats shown in the ending when Zack sees the exact same dome of Whispers explode in white light which happens at the same time in the Singularity and the present.

You've answered this yourself. The very fact that the Singularity is a place simultaneously in the past, present and future and that events there reverberate across time indiciates that Zacks scenes do not have to be occurring in parallel because the Singularity exists outside of that.

If you are in the singularity then the past, present and future become essentially wrapped up into one, when time becomes stretched out again then the past is in the past, not the present. So the past can be changed from within The Singularity by virtue of it existing outside of time.

Also, I would point out that "Fate" exists within the Singularity where we fought the Harbinger, the Whispers therefore exist outside of time, they appear in time when required and can reach into the past, present and future. Therefore the Whispers appearing during Zacks Last Stand does not mean that this is not in the past, them circling Midgar at this time when the group are not fighting the Whispers at this time tells us that something is going on in the Singularity in that moment, not that this is an alternate timeline (although it could be).


Trying to make this as simple as possible:

Before we go into the final battle time is normal, Aerith is given a vision of Zack (a past vision).

Group go into Singularity where all time is now functionally compressed. We defeat fate which destroys the Whispers both within the Singularity and across time which is currently compressed.

The group leave the Singularity and time is uncompresses being stretched back out into normal time again. Because the whispers were destroyed while the timeline was compressed the past has been edited.

We see some of those past edits (Zack surviving, Biggs being alive, Stamp changing) and Aerith senses that Zack is alive.


We could also conceptualise this slightly differently, in that the timeline exists as normal (so it doesn't become compressed), but because the Singularity exists outside of time any change within the Singularity will reverberate across normal time.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well obviously the past event was changed, because Zack's alive.

The past change is what created a split timeline and a 'new' Stamp to symbolize it. The final battles of Crisis Core, and FFVII-R happened simultaneously thanks to the Singularity and Whispers being at both places at the same time. Zack got to survive because of several factors, presumably the Whispers not doing their job and also because time was so warped due to the numerous changes that happened over the course of the story. It's a domino effect.

And it's not a 'past vision' because no one saw it. It's something we see as the audience. We see it because it's something that happens at the same time as the same chain of events of the Remake's ending. It's not really that complicated. The two events occured at the same time, just at two different points in time.

View attachment 9469

Dude, don't post untagged Eva spoilers here.

 

[Roundhouse]

Mako:

That 'spoiler' is from over a decade ago and wouldn't even make sense out of context/in itself. (But deleted it just in case.)

 

[LNK]

The final battle against the Arbiters of Fate and Sephiroth and Zack's last stand happened simultaneously. And the consequences of that fight allowed Zack to live.

If that is the case, then wouldn't that mean the events leading up to the ending of remake, run simultaneous with the events of Crisis Core?

 

[Makoeyes987]

If that is the case, then wouldn't that mean the events leading up to the ending of remake, run simultaneous with the events of Crisis Core?

I don't know, but I think it's more a fact of the Singularity acting as a time-space connection point, which allowed those events of FFVII to be connected thanks to the shared presence of all those Whispers.

Sorta like a literal... Crossroads of destiny.