Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Obsidian Fire]

Cloud was in a comatose state when Zack fought his Last Stand. Him dying was the trigger to get OUT OF HIS COMATOSE STATE. Zack needs to die because he's the one who's able t o tell that Cloud is not an ex-SOLDIER. I really don't know how to write it more clearly so I'll stop there because really, it's exhausting my god.

Except this isn't what we see in Crisis Core. Cloud is starting to come out of his comatose state *before* Zack goes to fight the Shinra Army. Which... Zack does all the time throughout Crisis Core after they break out of Nibeleheim.

On several occasions in CC, we see Zack leave Cloud somewhere quiet while Zack goes to fight off whoever is pursuing them. That's... normal for them. Cloud waking up during one of those times is... not in any way weird or connected to Zack dying. It's just him coming out of mako poisoning for maximum narrative effect.

You can even see him reach out to a leaving Zack here. And then Cloud *crawls* under his own power from where Zack left him to find Zack who's not actually all the way dead yet. He's nowhere to be found in the actual fight because Zack is smart enough not to put Cloud on an actual battlefield while he can't do anything.

The difference we see in Remake is that Zack defeats the Shinra Army "early" and then goes to get Cloud... so... *most likely* Cloud is starting to come around by the time Zack gets to him in Remake.

And this isn't even getting into the OG which has Cloud responding to Zack even earlier when they're on the truck coming into the Midgar region... or ACC which has Cloud reference his memoires of talking to Zack on the truck and after Zack's death... Everything I can find in the Compilation shows that Cloud was aware during that time and does remember it.... and as himself at that.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... and much more likely than Zack existing in some far out timeline for some side quests with Zack.

Why does this "disconnected"/"side quests" style of description keep coming up? =/

I don't think anyone has suggested anything like that, nor is it remotely the only direction available in a multi-timeline scenario -- nor even the most obvious direction. The most obvious direction -- and definitely the one I would expect from a Square Enix title, given their catalog -- is for an alternate timeline that was affected by the protagonists' to be used as a narrative contrast.

Eerie, I get where you're coming from, but if Zack is closed off in a different timeline, how do you see the devs approaching that angle in the remake? I don't believe that they did that big scene at the end of P1 just to set up some sort of spin-off, to be honest.

Aaaaand there it is again.

 

[Roundhouse]

Not sure I follow Twilight -- even if it is used for contrast, is it not still true that there is a disconnection between the Zack events and the main stuff, in that Zack cannot engage with the normal line? It's not that he will be doing unrelated things, it's that he cannot interact with the main timeline that is the concern.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Even if that is cause for concern, we've already seen that a power to traverse such boundaries exists.

 

[nazhus]

Had a really interesting time reading the first few pages of this thread and hate to bring it back up but i feel a lot of people are afraid to call this a sequel simply because -
a) It has the word "Remake" in the title
b) It was marketed as a remake

 

[Fiz]

Had a really interesting time reading the first few pages of this thread and hate to bring it back up but i feel a lot of people are afraid to call this a sequel simply because -
a) It has the word "Remake" in the title
b) It was marketed as a remake

Whilst this might be part of it, I think it’s more what it means for the story going forward.

If it’s a sequel/requel then this means that change going forward could be, shall we say, controversial and whilst it may follow the general flow of the original story it will at some point go off the rails, likely at multiple points.

People’s tolerance for change and eventual derailment(s) are diverse.

Some want it to be super close or even exact to the original, for them the idea of a sequel is almost a deal breaker.

Others have a tolerance towards change, but what constitutes acceptable change is all over the place and totally inconsistent.

Others are open to whatever, nothing off-limits, as long as it’s ultimately good.

I think the further towards “the same” someone is, or whether their tolerance for change excludes certain major beats, is probably connected to whether the word “sequel” or “requel” is palletable.

 

[Roundhouse]

I'm curious as to what people's 'point of no return' is for the remake. What is the point where someone just gives up on it or decides that they aren't a fan of it? Is it Aerith not dying, Zack living in the same timeline, or even just cut locations and such?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's a really interesting question. I'm curious what my own limit is, to be perfectly honest. Wonder if I'd surprise myself.

 

[Roundhouse]

I was going to make a topic about it, but didn't bother...might do so, hmm.

 

[FFShinra]

Undermining death in general is what would do it for me. Be it Aerith, Zack, anyone. The survival of Avalanche in Part 1 is only tolerable to me because they can still possibly die later.

 

[Odysseus]

I guess for me it really depends on what the remake's relationship with the original is. If it really is more of a sequel than a straight forward remake, then they can get away with a lot more. I think the only thing I'm not a fan of at the moment is Zack, I don't want this to become the Zack Fair show again if he's alive.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Had a really interesting time reading the first few pages of this thread and hate to bring it back up but i feel a lot of people are afraid to call this a sequel simply because -
a) It has the word "Remake" in the title
b) It was marketed as a remake

I think it’s less to do with being afraid and more to do with reluctance based on the info currently available. Had this been a sequel, I feel like playing the OG and the compilation would be required for the remake to work but I think it pretty much stands as its own thing even with the compilation references. Not like any of us who have experienced the OG/compilation even know what the hell is happening anyways.

I think the further towards “the same” someone is, or whether their tolerance for change excludes certain major beats, is probably connected to whether the word “sequel” or “requel” is palletable.

I’d say I can tolerate some pretty big changes but there’s a few things I wouldn’t want them to mess up, I’m still in that “remake” camp though because that’s just what they did and I don’t think the stuff they added makes it any less of a remake or more of a sequel yet. Much like a remake for a TV show or a movie, the degree of faithfulness to the original varies pretty widely, maybe a shot for shot recreation or maybe a different story with the same characters.

I'm curious as to what people's 'point of no return' is for the remake. What is the point where someone just gives up on it or decides that they aren't a fan of it? Is it Aerith not dying, Zack living in the same timeline, or even just cut locations and such?

At this point, I would say Cloud dying & Zack taking over the story, or Tifa dying instead of Aerith. I’d be pretty annoyed if Aerith and/or Zack survive the remake but I’d probably get over it assuming the first two things don’t happen.

 

[Fiz]

I'm curious as to what people's 'point of no return' is for the remake. What is the point where someone just gives up on it or decides that they aren't a fan of it? Is it Aerith not dying, Zack living in the same timeline, or even just cut locations and such?

For me I’m kinda over it. When it became obvious that they wanted to change stuff, possibly big stuff, my initial reaction was really torn. Excited but also disappointed. But after the initial shock wore off and it sank in, I just got over it and now I’m excited for what comes next.

So, it depends entirely on what they do with it and how good what they create turns out to be. If it’s good then I’ll enjoy it, if it’s not good then I won’t.

If what they create is as good or better than the original then they will have made the right choices, if it isn’t then they won’t.

My bottom line is “nothing is entirely off limits but please don’t screw it up”.

 

[Fiz]

At this point, I would say Cloud dying & Zack taking over the story, or Tifa dying instead of Aerith. I’d be pretty annoyed if Aerith and/or Zack survive the remake but I’d probably get over it assuming the first two things don’t happen.

I think this is the biggest concern I have.

Aerith, and to a lesser extent Zack, are the “big hitters” for any major changes and I would be more surprised if Aerith dies in Remake than if she doesn’t.

This doesn’t mean I think her death has been written out either, I suspect she in particular is going to become “complicated”.

The thing that bothers me is that it’s very easy for them as writers to fall into the cheese trap, or do switches that sound good and obvious on paper but end up looking cheap or trite.

What you suggested as a concern is cheap and I hope they don’t fall into that particular trap - although I think Cloud is marked but that’s a different thing.

Switching Aerith out for Tifa as the tragedy would feel transparent. Switching Cloud out for Zack would feel... weird, and outright fan-service considering how popular he is over in Japan.

When I balance that particular possibility out, I’d prefer them both to just... erm... live... and get something completely new. I think that has more artistic credibility than playing games with the story.

The other risk is the cheese trap, where they make a big fucking deal out of changing a character fate and push so hard into it that they become *everything* the story is about, or execute it in a cheesy way. That is going to be a difficult line for them to tread.

 

[Ite]

I'm curious as to what people's 'point of no return' is for the remake. What is the point where someone just gives up on it or decides that they aren't a fan of it? Is it Aerith not dying, Zack living in the same timeline, or even just cut locations and such?

irl I know a handful of millennial and gen xers from a variety of backgrounds (race/gender/vocation) but all leaning left politically and all passionate about storytelling and fantasy — largely in thanks to the FFs that made it to the West before the Enix merger (1, 4, 6-10) as well as BioWare games (old and new), D&D, and books. Some of them still play games. Of them, I am the only one that finished Remake. Their reasons for giving up:

S - “There are good moments that have a lot of polish, but it feels like I have to wade through mud to get to each one.” (Chapter 8)
J - “[long rant about Sephiroth and Jaws]” (Chapter 2) (rage-quit while meeting Aerith)
B - “I don’t like hack and slash.” (Chapter 1)
A - “I saw what they were doing with those dementors. I can tell they’re going to just fly in my face for the rest of the game. Why didn’t they just remake Final Fantasy VII?” (Chapter 3)
G - “I’m gutted. What the fuck is this?” (Chapter 17) (rage-quit when Barret got stabbed)
R - “I don’t know, it just kind of lost me. I was planning to keep going but I haven’t touched it in months.” (Chapter 11) (this one really got me, because this guy has a similar passion for FFs that I do, and is not known to get bored or leave things unfinished.)

They’ve all played the OG before.

So, to answer your question, looks like there were plenty of exits already for Part 1, even before it’s bonkers finale. Intergrade’s announcement dropped more folks, FF7 Fortnite dropped even more, but the “good news” is that the parts of the herd that were anxious about piecemeal storytelling and ancillary multi-media and multi-platform titles and major story departures are now gone. I doubt anyone who invests in Intergrade and beyond is going to rage-quit the series because of anything that story pulls (watch me eat these words).

At this point I don’t think cut locations are going to make the difference. Anyone who would have jumped ship for departures as “trivial” as cut content in future parts would have bailed after Part 1’s shenanigans — as far as I’m concerned, every scene that was interrupted by the whispers is cut content because I fuckin skip that scene (the Pillar collapse was one of my most anticipated sequences and I felt desperately, heart-wrenchingly betrayed... and I’m still here). My guess is that Part 2 is going to attract a much smaller and more devoted audience who need to be really pissed to turn it off, and that boils down to Aeris living/someone else dying, or the Time God amounting to a big-lipped alligator. The whole crux of our anxiety is the knowledge that the chances of at least one of these two things happening is astronomically high.

 

[Fiz]

irl I know a handful of millennial and gen xers from a variety of backgrounds (race/gender/vocation) but all leaning left politically and all passionate about storytelling and fantasy — largely in thanks to the FFs that made it to the West before the Enix merger (1, 4, 6-10) as well as BioWare games (old and new), D&D, and books. Some of them still play games. Of them, I am the only one that finished Remake. Their reasons for giving up:

S - “There are good moments that have a lot of polish, but it feels like I have to wade through mud to get to each one.” (Chapter 8)
J - “[long rant about Sephiroth and Jaws]” (Chapter 2) (rage-quit while meeting Aerith)
B - “I don’t like hack and slash.” (Chapter 1)
A - “I saw what they were doing with those dementors. I can tell they’re going to just fly in my face for the rest of the game. Why didn’t they just remake Final Fantasy VII?” (Chapter 3)
G - “I’m gutted. What the fuck is this?” (Chapter 17) (rage-quit when Barret got stabbed)
R - “I don’t know, it just kind of lost me. I was planning to keep going but I haven’t touched it in months.” (Chapter 11) (this one really got me, because this guy has a similar passion for FFs that I do, and is not known to get bored or leave things unfinished.)

They’ve all played the OG before.

So, to answer your question, looks like there were plenty of exits already for Part 1, even before it’s bonkers finale. Intergrade’s announcement dropped more folks, FF7 Fortnite dropped even more, but the “good news” is that the parts of the herd that were anxious about piecemeal storytelling and ancillary multi-media and multi-platform titles and major story departures are now gone. I doubt anyone who invests in Intergrade and beyond is going to rage-quit the series because of anything that story pulls (watch me eat these words).

At this point I don’t think cut locations are going to make the difference. Anyone who would have jumped ship for departures as “trivial” as cut content in future parts would have bailed after Part 1’s shenanigans — as far as I’m concerned, every scene that was interrupted by the whispers is cut content because I fuckin skip that scene (the Pillar collapse was one of my most anticipated sequences and I felt desperately, heart-wrenchingly betrayed... and I’m still here). My guess is that Part 2 is going to attract a much smaller and more devoted audience who need to be really pissed to turn it off, and that boils down to Aeris living/someone else dying, or the Time God amounting to a big-lipped alligator. The whole crux of our anxiety is the knowledge that the chances of at least one of these two things happening is astronomically high.

It’s a shame when people rage quit a game I enjoyed. But, this is an inevitability with any game and the shed will be offset by the newcomers.

There was a large survey that found that the game was really well received by newcomers - moreso than those who played OG. So retention should in theory be better for those players.

Also, I think the amount of player shed and displeasure is exaggerated. Even with a concerted effort for some to tank metacritic scores it managed to maintain a high overall score. Also, Remake content and speculation videos have a generally high engagement.

So I don’t think the wider player base is as change averse as we might think.

 

[Odysseus]

People get very attached to the ideas they have about how something should be, so it makes sense to me that really long-time players wouldn't care for many of the things the remake does. I think the generation that had the compilation/KH right alongside the original might be a bit more likely to just roll with it than people who played it in 1997 are, and of course new players have no preconceived biases.

 

[Fiz]

People get very attached to the ideas they have about how something should be, so it makes sense to me that really long-time players wouldn't care for many of the things the remake does. I think the generation that had the compilation/KH right alongside the original might be a bit more likely to just roll with it that people who played it in 1997 are, and of course new players have no preconceived biases.

I dunno, a lot of the criticism I’ve seen comes from people who are adults but too young to have played it when it was first released. I think it’s just one of those things with entertainment where some people are very purist and others just more relaxed about stuff.

There is an interesting thing for me personally with this. I didn’t react too strongly to Aeriths death, I thought it was sad but I didn’t get particularly upset; and I wasn’t one of those who lost it and spent hours trying to find a way to resurrect her.

Yet, when her music started to play, she affected me, when we had that vision, it affected me, the bridge scene at the end was good because it was loaded as hell, if you get her first in the final battle her line to Sephiroth “so what, screw him” felt really good.

I actually think she is more powerful as a character being alive, but carrying her legacy, than she was in OG and I think she could plausibly be more powerful of a character living than dying because she carries a legacy and the sense for revenge is it’s own driving force.

I wasn’t even that arsed about her in OG, but Remake felt good and Remake made her interesting. This is something I’m really aware of about my own relationship with this game, that Aerith as a character is far more interesting now, with the weird stuff Remake has added to her, and the legacy of her OG death than she ever was in OG.

 

[Roundhouse]

Ite: Interesting! I match the description of the people you mentioned, and I also find the changes silly. Maybe I'll change my mind when I can actually play the game, but it's doubtful. I've shifted into thinking of it as a separate story to the OG, though, so that helps a lot with tolerating it. I'm surprised people dropped out at the mere announcement of Intergrade, though...what was it that did that? Weiss?

Honestly, I think the whole remake becomes a lot more interesting when you stop thinking of it as FFVII, and think of it as FFVII-Avengers-Remix instead.

 

[Ite]

Ite: Interesting! I match the description of the people you mentioned, and I also find the changes silly. Maybe I'll change my mind when I can actually play the game, but it's doubtful. I've shifted into thinking of it as a separate story to the OG, though, so that helps a lot with tolerating it. I'm surprised people dropped out at the mere announcement of Intergrade, though...what was it that did that? Weiss?

Honestly, I think the whole remake becomes a lot more interesting when you stop thinking of it as FFVII, and think of it as FFVII-Avengers-Remix instead.

I’m definitely more on-board reframing it as a sequel, I don’t know why ppl are so adamant about taking that away from me lol. Now the only thing I feel suckered by is the marketing.

I’m similarly baffled by Intergrade being the line. What harm could Weiss do that killing the Time God did not? What rule is violated by Yuffie travelling to Midgar that wasn’t violated more egregiously by Cait Sith? The complaints I’ve seen have been mostly online, by ppl who were, I think, either expecting all parts to be on PS4 (lol) or were waiting for all parts to be out and didn’t know how much of a departure Remake already was from the OG.

 

[Odysseus]

Sephiroth's portrayal has definitely been a bit contentious. Your comment about one of those people ranting about Jaws reminded me that a video maker I like had the same issue, though he finished the game. Thinking of it as a sequel makes Sephiroth's much more pronounced role a lot more acceptable imo.

either expecting all parts to be on PS4 (lol)

Those poor deluded souls lol. No way Square would limit themselves like that.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I’m definitely more on-board reframing it as a sequel, I don’t know why ppl are so adamant about taking that away from me lol. Now the only thing I feel suckered by is the marketing.

Would it be better to reframe the idea of a remake? No matter how meta FF7R gets, if isn’t actually continuing the story of the OG like an actual sequel would be like FFX-2, the FFXIII sequels, or even AC, then I think that just leaves us with some other monstrosity...
I mean, why is there so much contention over what a remake is and isn’t for video games when other forms of media don’t seem so stringent on its definition?

 

[Roundhouse]

I still think the best comparison is the Eva Rebuild....

 

[Clement Rage]

I mostly regard this as a separate work, so there's nothing about cleaving to the original that matters to me, there's no overwriting of canon that happens in my brain. I won't have any reaction where I think 'this isn't how it's supposed to be'.

But as an independent game, there are things that could make me disengage.

If they continue writing Shinra Inc the way they've done so far through Junon, as I'm pretty sure they're going to, I will become disengaged, most likely, as I didn't like... basically everything they've done with Shinra. I won't necessarily stop playing, (although, truthfully, the bestest game ever made wouldn't get me to buy a PS5 right now)

I will need to see hard consequences for timeline meddling, another shoe needs to drop and it needs to draw blood.

 

[Ite]

Your comment about one of those people ranting about Jaws reminded me that a video maker I like had the same issue,

In one video someone was pissed because the score was doing the same thing. I couldn’t even disagree with them, but my level of priority for that is so low compared to... so many other issues.

Would it be better to reframe the idea of a remake? No matter how meta FF7R gets, if isn’t actually continuing the story of the OG like an actual sequel would be like FFX-2, the FFXIII sequels, or even AC, then I think that just leaves us with some other monstrosity...View attachment 9808
I mean, why is there so much contention over what a remake is and isn’t for video games when other forms of media don’t seem so stringent on its definition?

It is continuing the story, though. In the fiction of the story, characters are travelling through time and creating branching universes, and when things seem to line up with how they did in the OG, it’s only because the time travel hasn’t prevented those things from playing out. The marketing calls it Remake to set up an expectation and the game sets out to summarily subvert it. It’s a trick. Our response to that trick can be whatever we like it to be, so let’s not gaslight each other about being tricked in the first place.

Would you call Terminator: Genesys a remake? No. This is the same thing. Things line up and many scenes are recreated and it’s all very nostalgic, but it’s a sequel.