So is Sephiroth the strongest dude in FF7 or what

[Cat Rage Room]

Even with the gap in power (and a more than likely beating at the hands of their respective villain), the heroes knew that they couldn't give up hope, or all would be lost. The heroes wouldn't stay down, because they had something of extreme importance to achieve. Even wounded, they focused on what was more important to them. Their dreams, their wishes...that was their "strength".

This could apply to the villains as well. Assuming that the heroes posses more sentient humanity than the villains just cheapens them both.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This could apply to the villains as well. Assuming that the heroes posses more sentient humanity than the villains just cheapens them both.

Dude, most of the villains aren't human and have no humanity. They're evil incarnate.

Chaos is a demon god.

Emperor Mateus is essentially Satan.

Cloud of Darkness is a demi-god wraith born from the darkness of the Void.

ExDeath is a fucking tree.

Kefka's so batshit insane he has no shred of humanity.

Sephiroth has tossed away his humanity.

I mean, not many villains have much sentient humanity. They have no bonds, or anything they fight to protect. They're selfish fighters all fighting and plotting for their own selfish ends.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm sorry, I couldn't find a better term. By 'humanity', I meant, try not to look at it as 'Our heroes with hope, dreams, goals, etc face off against THE BAD GUYS THEY'RE BAD'. Villains have dreams, goals, and things that are important for them that they're fighting for as well. Most great villains do. Not doing so gives the heroes far more depth than the villains, which isn't fair for their portrayal.

I'm not saying that they should be sympathetic, but they should at least match their counterparts.

 

[Roger]

Well Kuja seems too be the exact same type as Zidane save for the fact that Kuja choose to specialise in Holy, Flare and Ultima while Zidane choose to specialise in... daggers.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well Kuja seems too be the exact same type as Zidane save for the fact that Kuja choose to specialise in Holy, Flare and Ultima while Zidane choose to specialise in... daggers.

That's not what I'm saying, man.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm sorry, I couldn't find a better term. By 'humanity', I meant, try not to look at it as 'Our heroes with hope, dreams, goals, etc face off against THE BAD GUYS THEY'RE BAD'. Villains have dreams, goals, and things that are important for them that they're fighting for as well. Most great villains do. Not doing so gives the heroes far more depth than the villains, which isn't fair for their portrayal.

You can't really compare the dreams, and goals of the villains to those of the heroes.

On one side you have a hero fighting for freedom, peace, and a world where wild roses can bloom and bring happiness to all.

On the other you have a megalomaniacal demonic emperor who's fighting to satisfy his own insatiable greed and lust for power.

You have a hero fighting for freedom and peace, and on the other side you have a cosmic entity fighting for the return of all existence to the Void.

They're not..the same thing.

The closest thing you have to what you're talking about is Tidus and Jecht..who are both fighting for the same thing, except going about it differently. Tidus wants peace and to restore harmony so that they can go home. Jecht wants to restore everything back to it was, no matter what. And he's been fooled into believing that the darkness will give him that.

I'm not saying that they should be sympathetic, but they should at least match their counterparts.

Well if that's the case, then yes. Each villain has a goal and "future" they're fighting for. Even if the future they want, is a future where no future exists.

 

[OWA-2]

The heroes had something to protect and look foward to. The villains did not.

The heroes were fighting for their dreams, for their crystals and for Cosmos.

Even with the gap in power (and a more than likely beating at the hands of their respective villain), the heroes knew that they couldn't give up hope, or all would be lost. The heroes wouldn't stay down, because they had something of extreme importance to achieve. Even wounded, they focused on what was more important to them. Their dreams, their wishes...that was their "strength".

And thus, even with their inferior power, they were able to defeat the villains.

So their "strength" was the power of hope, their dreams, love and friendship? Are you fu**ing serious?! Dude... These are all plot-devices used by a writer when he/she wants the hero to win, but doesn't know how to do it because the villain is clearly stronger.
What you described isn't strength/power, it's a plot-device. Hell, you yourself said the heroes have an "inferior power" compared to the villains.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So their "strength" was the power of hope, their dreams, love and friendship? Are you fu**ing serious?! Dude... These are all plot-devices used by a writer when he/she wants the hero to win, but doesn't know how to do it because the villain is clearly stronger.
What you described isn't strength/power, it's a plot-device. Hell, you yourself said the heroes have an "inferior power" compared to the villains.

You need to get it through your head that raw power and strength =/= superiority, in terms of a fight. Resolve, skill, and technique can overcome a gap in power, easily.

An expert with a slingshot and a rock with a passionate cause to fight for, can overtake a novice with a machine gun.

 

[Roger]

I was replying to Make's earlier post, actually.

Anyway the villains may have dreams and goals but they don't give them the strength like the heros. Firions says his dream is one worth dying for and he fights with that conviction in mind. Emperor, not so much. If he is putting his life on the line then it's because he knows he'll be reincarnated. Onion Knight and Cloud fight to protect someone, Squall feels that even when fighting by himself he's still fights alongside his comrades (or something). Even if you take away the good and evil from it, it's not the same.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Villains have dreams, goals, and things that are important for them that they're fighting for as well. Most great villains do. Not doing so gives the heroes far more depth than the villains, which isn't fair for their portrayal.

I'm not saying that they should be sympathetic, but they should at least match their counterparts.

True, the villains also have their dreams/objectives. In Shade Impulse

Spoiler

Sephiroth even asks Garland if he doesn't have any dream

.

But the villains are all fighting for themselves and not exactly for a common goal, though it may seem that way at first.

The heroes, on the other hand, they have all their personal dreams and such, but they're fighting in unisson for a common goal.

Other than that, each hero knows that he's not fighting only for him/her. They're fighting for their friends, too.

They know that, if they fail, their comrades will suffer the consequences.

They know that it's not just their life that's on the line, but their friends' too.

Thus, this compels them even more to move foward, because they know that they have friends who are counting on them and giving up or being defeated could mean their friends' death.

 

[OWA-2]

You need to get it through your head that raw power and strength =/= superiority, in terms of a fight. Resolve, skill, and technique can overcome a gap in power, easily.

An expert with a slingshot and a rock with a passionate cause to fight for, can overtake a novice with a machine gun.

And you need to get it through your head that I'm not talking about superiority in every way, but only raw power and strength. From all the cutscenes and FMVs shown throughout the FF series, the villains ARE stronger than the heroes, you liking it or not.
Does that shatter your reality or something?

And most of those villains ARE able to overcome the heroes' skills and techniques with their raw power. That's the main reason why the heroes needed HELP to beat them, in their respective games.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And you need to get it through your head that I'm not talking about superiority in every way, but only raw power and strength. From all the cutscenes and FMVs shown throughout the FF series, the villains ARE stronger than the heroes, you liking it or not.
Does that shatter your reality or something?

What's the point of raw power and strength if it doesn't lead anywhere? You're parsing the facts to make a judgment that has no relevance to the plot at all. Okay. Sephiroth has more spirit energy and power than Cloud. Does that make him a better fighter and keep him from being beaten? No.

The end.

And most of those villains ARE able to overcome the heroes' skills and techniques with their raw power. That's the main reason why the heroes needed HELP to beat them, in their respective games.

Okay. And then they're shown to lose to them individually later on as well. Again, power doesn't equate to superiority. What's the point of stating "THEY TEH STRONGEST!!!11" when it doesn't mean shit in the end?

Dark and Divine laid it out perfectly. The villains have nothing to fight for to allow them to fully utilize their planet busting power and claim victory. The heroes do. The heroes win because their convictions and skills allow them to bridge the gulf in terms of power, and win. That's all there is to it. Untapped raw power means shit if it...untapped.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You can't really compare the dreams, and goals of the villains to those of the heroes.

On one side you have a hero fighting for freedom, peace, and a world where wild roses can bloom and bring happiness to all.

On the other you have a megalomaniacal demonic emperor who's fighting to satisfy his own insatiable greed and lust for power.

You have a hero fighting for freedom and peace, and on the other side you have a cosmic entity fighting for the return of all existence to the Void.

They're not..the same thing.

The closest thing you have to what you're talking about is Tidus and Jecht..who are both fighting for the same thing, except going about it differently. Tidus wants peace and to restore harmony so that they can go home. Jecht wants to restore everything back to it was, no matter what. And he's been fooled into believing that the darkness will give him that.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying you're supposed to sympathize with the villains goals. What I'm saying is this;

Even with the gap in power (and a more than likely beating at the hands of their respective villain), the heroes knew that they couldn't give up hope, or all would be lost. The heroes wouldn't stay down, because they had something of extreme importance to achieve. Even wounded, they focused on what was more important to them. Their dreams, their wishes...that was their "strength".

I'm saying that in regards to the above, the same does apply to the villains. The villains couldn't give up hope, they too had something important to achieve (to them, anyway), dreams, wishes, etc. Granted, these goals are usually subjectively bad and they have to be stopped, but I'm saying, don't assign all of these things to heroes and just paint the villains as just GENERIC BAD GUY.

 

[Dark and Divine]

(...)I'm not talking about superiority in every way, but only raw power and strength. From all the cutscenes and FMVs shown throughout the FF series, the villains ARE stronger than the heroes(...)

Yes, in terms of raw power, each villain is (far) superior to the heroes.

The same way that Sephiroth's raw power surpasses Cloud's and everyone else in the FFVII's world, for that matter. Even if Omega and Minerva can rival Sephiroth's power, they can't surpass his will.

And as seen in ACC, even Sephiroth using only his physical strength, was able to overwhelm Cloud.

But Cloud couldn't let himself die just yet. He couldn't leave a deranged godlike being at loose in his world. Tifa, Denzel, Marlene, Barret, Red XIII, Cid, Vincent, Yuffie, Reeve, everyone... he couldn't let them being killed by Sephiroth.

Cloud didn't wanted another friend's death to burden. Hell, part of the movie had Cloud surpassing the guilt he felt about Aerith's death. Now that he could overcome that guilt, he was going to let that happen again? No.

It was this rage, this desire to protect his loved ones that allowed Cloud's spirit to burn into its max and unleash an attack that defeated Sephiroth.

But i can't see the Omnislash V6 rot away and destroy a planet the way that the Negative Lifestream could.

So, bottom line is that Sephiroth is indeed the strongest being in FFVII, but Cloud, driven by its dreams and desires, was able to overcome his power disavantage and defeat Sephiroth.

At the end of the day, Sephiroth is the strongest and Cloud is the victor.

And that's all, folks!

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm saying that in regards to the above, the same does apply to the villains. The villains couldn't give up hope, they too had something important to achieve (to them, anyway), dreams, wishes, etc. Granted, these goals are usually subjectively bad and they have to be stopped, but I'm saying, don't assign all of these things to heroes and just paint the villains as just GENERIC BAD GUY.

The villains have no hope. They want to *crush* hope. They don't have dreams. You're talking about an objective. A desire. That's not the same thing as a conviction or purpose a person see's as greater than themselves that they must go balls out to see come to fruition.

ExDeath wants to send everything to the Void. That's his wish and desire.

Terra wants to fight to see a future where children will have hope and a future to enjoy. Terra would die for that hope and conviction. ExDeath doesn't give a shit because he sees everything as insipid and meaningless. "Victory itself is nothingness."

That's not the same thing. I don't understand how you can equate the Cloud of Darkness wanting to send shit into a vacuum, or Sephiroth wanting to see Cloud suffer and despair, as true personal conviction that moves one to surpass their limits, like fighting against tyranny so that people can truly be free and not endure the pain and suffering of war.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Give it up Mako. Some people (coughOWA-2cough) can't understand the logic of this.

"If Sephiroth is the strongest, why does he keep losing?"

Simple question. Simple answer too: "Because he isn't the strongest".

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The villains have no hope. They want to *crush* hope. They don't have dreams. You're talking about an objective. A desire. That's not the same thing as a conviction or purpose a person see's as greater than themselves that they must go balls out to see come to fruition.

ExDeath wants to send everything to the Void. That's his wish and desire.

Terra wants to fight to see a future where children will have hope and a future to enjoy. Terra would die for that hope and conviction. ExDeath doesn't give a shit because he sees everything as insipid and meaningless. "Victory itself is nothingness."

That's not the same thing. I don't understand how you can equate the Cloud of Darkness wanting to send shit into a vacuum, or Sephiroth wanting to see Cloud suffer and despair, as true personal conviction that moves one to surpass their limits, like fighting against tyranny so that people can truly be free and not endure the pain and suffering of war.

See, that's sort of lame.

Take for example Krelian, the main antagonist from Xenogears. He has hopes, dreams, desires, goals, convictions, etc. It's just that his goals are pretty terrible and thus the protagonists move to stop him with their own goals/dreams/convictions, and the player agrees with the heroes in doing so, and that's what makes them 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. But Krelian's goals and what drives him aren't 'worth less' than the heroes. They're just bad and generally undesirable to everyone but him. It would be pretty lame if the heroes had all of this stuff to fight for and the bad guys were just BAD GUYS.

To give a more realistic example; Hitler. He had many dreams, goals, personal conviction, and all that. He was just on the 'wrong side'. That's what makes it interesting, giving both heroes and villains a lot to fight for, just on different sides.

 

[Makoeyes987]

See, that's sort of lame.

How is that lame? Villainy is evil. Evil is in part, selfishness. A selfish ambition where one tries to exploit others leads to one doing evil acts. Not every villain is grey and misguided, sympathetic, or tragic.

Take for example Krelian, the main antagonist from Xenogears. He has hopes, dreams, desires, goals, convictions, etc. It's just that his goals are pretty terrible and thus the protagonists move to stop him with their own goals/dreams/convictions, and the player agrees with the heroes in doing so, and that's what makes them 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. But Krelian's goals and what drives him aren't 'worth less' than the heroes. They're just bad and generally undesirable to everyone but him. It would be pretty lame if the heroes had all of this stuff to fight for and the bad guys were just BAD GUYS.

You're gonna compare every FF villain to Xenogears now, aren't you?

Those aren't the same thing. You're taking it out of context. I'm sure Cloud of Darkness gets wet and weak in the knees at imagining a realm of nonexistence. I'm sure that just would make her day, and she'd do anything to make it happen. But that's not the same thing. You can't equate selfish ambition to a selfless cause and conviction.

If I challenged you to run a mile in 6 minutes or less, which would move you to actually accomplishing it...$500,000, or the threat that if you don't, I'm going to kill your g/f and your mother, and my henchman are right there, holding a gun to both their heads. And there's nothing you can do to stop me but do as I say.

Which one is a selfish ambition and goal, and a purpose that goes beyond you and your desires?

To give a more realistic example; Hitler. He had many dreams, goals, personal conviction, and all that. He was just on the 'wrong side'. That's what makes it interesting, giving both heroes and villains a lot to fight for, just on different sides.

It was more than just being on the wrong side. They were megalomaniacal and bred from a sense of entitlement and racial superiority. How are you not understanding the difference between a positive, selfless ambition/conviction, and a selfish goal? Their very natures are different.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that villainy should be sympathized with, nor am I saying 'it's not all that bad', or misguided, or whatever. I'm saying that even utterly evil acts can have personal conviction, hopes, dreams, or whatever. 'Conviction' just means a strong persuasion or belief. Anyone, good or evil can have that.

Vinsfeld from Wild Arms 2 ran a terrorist organization that repeatedly ruined the world's day (and was a pretty bad person!) but he fought hard for what he believed in and had enough conviction and drive to rival even the heroes. He had hopes (which he shared with his subordinates), dreams (which he broadcasted to the entire world when he hijacked a radio tower), and conviction (which drove him to destroy a nation and betray his best friend). They were just selfish and evil. But it's still hopes, dreams, and conviction, and those drove him. But he was still an evil bastard and had to die.

I'm not saying that heroic conviction and being an evil bastard are the same, but the things that drive them to do so, like dreams, hopes, personal goals, feelings, all that, exist in both. Giving all of these qualities to heroes and leaving the villains to display nothing but simple minded evil robs them of depth.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that villainy should be sympathized with, nor am I saying 'it's not all that bad', or misguided, or whatever. I'm saying that even utterly evil acts can have personal conviction, hopes, dreams, or whatever. 'Conviction' just means a strong persuasion or belief. Anyone, good or evil can have that.

Okay, fine. Both the heroes and villains have convictions. But they are inherently not the same. One set of convictions are selfish and inherently destructive, the other set are convictions that are beyond the self and positive.

One person is fighting for their own desires. One person is fighting for their own desires, and the desires of other people (and hell their futures and lives) on the line.

Which set of convictions are gonna move the person to go beyond their limits more? The one where they're just fighting for themselves, or the other where their performance has everything important to them and other people on the line?

A villain can still have depth and be selfish. I don't understand why you're saying the both have to have the same type of conviction to be deep.

 

[OWA-2]

What's the point of raw power and strength if it doesn't lead anywhere? You're parsing the facts to make a judgment that has no relevance to the plot at all. Okay. Sephiroth has more spirit energy and power than Cloud. Does that make him a better fighter and keep him from being beaten? No.

The end.



Okay. And then they're shown to lose to them individually later on as well. Again, power doesn't equate to superiority. What's the point of stating "THEY TEH STRONGEST!!!11" when it doesn't mean shit in the end?

The point of stating "THEY TEH STRONGEST!!!11" is because this is what the thread creator wanted to know. Read the tittle.
This thread is about Sephiroth's strength/raw-power, and I'm saying he IS stronger/more-powerful than Cloud, as proved in FFVII and all it's Compilation. That's it.

And you need to understand the concept of plot-device, Mako.
Many times in fiction, the villain IS better than the hero, and the only way to make him lose at the end, is for the villain committing a mistake he would never do normally, or make him underestimate the hero for no reason, or make him act like a moron by forgetting his own abilities previously shown in the story, or make the hero win by pure luck, etc.
In the end the hero won, but only because the plot/writer wanted it, not because the hero was actually better than the villain.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Okay, fine. Both the heroes and villains have convictions. But they are inherently not the same. One set of convictions are selfish and inherently destructive, the other set are convictions that are beyond the self and positive.

One person is fighting for their own desires. One person is fighting for their own desires, and the desires of other people (and hell their futures and lives) on the line.

Which set of convictions are gonna move the person to go beyond their limits more? The one where they're just fighting for themselves, or the other where their performance has everything important to them and other people on the line?

This can apply to either hero or villain. Vinsfeld (to use him as an example again) fought on behalf of all of his troops, officers and the world he wanted to build, and but he was still bad and had to be put down. You don't think villains don't fight for everything important to them, either?

Also, heroes can fight for just themselves (and nobody else) as well.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And you need to understand the concept of plot-device, Mako.
Many times in fiction, the villain IS better than the hero, and the only way to make him lose at the end, is for the villain committing a mistake he would never do normally, or make him underestimate the hero for no reason, or make him act like a moron by forgetting his own abilities previously shown in the story, or make the hero win by pure luck, etc.
In the end the hero won, but only because the plot/writer was at his side, not because the hero was actually better than the villain.

The fictional universe doesn't *exist* beyond the plot or the writer. So saying they won only because the writer said so, makes no sense. That goes for EVERYTHING in the scenario. It doesn't exist objectively outside of the creator's own mind. You're speaking of the story as if it's an actual reality.

The thing you called "plot-device" is the actual truth of the story. The villain clearly isn't "better" because they weren't able to win within the bounds of the narrative. That's the only reality that exists. Sephiroth lost because when push came to shove, he couldn't cut it and Cloud bridged the gulf in power between the two with his own willpower, conviction, and drive to win. Cloud wanted it more because for him, winning wasn't just about himself, it was about all the people who were pinning their hopes and lives on his victory.

Sephiroth doesn't have anyone to make him feel loved, happy, or important. He only has himself. He doesn't have people to care about that force him to go beyond his limits of power because if he doesn't, he'd not only let himself down..he'd be letting the people he cares about, down. There's nothing PUSHING him.

That's the factor that keeps Sephiroth from winning. And there's nothing that will change that because in the end, Sephiroth is a flawed existence. He's too self absorbed and alone to fully be able to realize his true potential in a life or death struggle against someone who wants it more than him.

This can apply to either hero or villain. Vinsfeld (to use him as an example again) fought on behalf of all of his troops, officers and the world he wanted to build, and but he was still bad and had to be put down. You don't think villains don't fight for everything important to them, either?

Not every villain is Vinsfeld or should be Vinsfeld. That has no bearing at all to the villains of FF in Dissidia.

Also, heroes can fight for just themselves (and nobody else) as well.

We're talking about FF Dissidia's heroes here, not every hero in existence.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Not every villain is Vinsfeld or should be Vinsfeld. That has no bearing at all to the villains of FF in Dissidia.

We're talking about FF Dissidia's heroes here, not every hero in existence.

Uh, no we weren't? We were having a discussion on villainy in general, man.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL, no I wasn't. I was speaking in context of Dissidia, dude.