Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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What else could the energy Cloud is emitting from his body to attack with during Omnislash be? Cheese whiz?
So is Sephiroth the strongest dude in FF7 or what
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Dark and Divine
Pro Adventurer
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Roger
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- Minato
You said Omnislash did get an explanation and then went back to the spirit energy thing. And WTF, you're the one that started swearing, prick.
I was joking. There's no reason to think the spirit energy CCC is talking about is visible when they're talking about Limit Breaks in general. Cloud and Red XIII I think is the only one that actually do a Mako-based attack. The magical beast and the Mako-infused guy. (And I suppose Barret if you believe in energy blasts from a gun that fires bullets)
I think that's Cloud again actually. The video focuses on Sephiroth, Cloud does his original finisher then Sephiroth get hit another five times. Looked to me that Cloud was just going for another run for good measure.
I was arguing that he used actual afterimages, impressions of light that were left because he was going so fast.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Do you know how to read? And way to go at the flaming, kid.
ME said:
I ALWAYS WAS TALKING ABOUT SPIRIT ENERGY. Unless you somehow missed my first and last sentences dictating my subject on the matter.
READ, FFS.
When you limit break, one of the indicators IS your spirit energy becoming visible. They say so in black and white. And it's not just Cloud and Red XIII. I guess you forgot Vincent, and Tifa, and all of the other characters who LIMIT BREAK.
That makes no damn sense, unless you believe Cloud can be in several places at once and be see through as a being of energy in every other spot but one.
They're more than after images because THEY CAN HURT YOU.
Wow! I dare you to be more biased than that.
OWA-2 said:
I'm not talking about skill, I'm talking about raw power.
As I said in this thread, I know that:
So if Kuja's "outside power source" doesn't count, neither should the other villains'.
Of course Kuja's destruction of Terra counts.
Mako Eyes
Yes I don't believe Dissidia is canon, for many reasons(including an old interview with Nomura), but I don't want to argue about Dissidia's canonicity right now, so lets agree to disagree. Or I can just concede, if that makes you feel better.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Well concession accepted then, because Dissidia is as canon as it gets out of the creator's own mouths. That completely invalidates your points of us never seeing Sephiroth's true power, when in Dissidia he uses both his sword AND magical techniques in full force against Cloud.
So Cloud in a one-on-one fight against Sephiroth was also able to stand up to his physical AND magical power and win. Twice.
There are no more excuses for Sephiroth. Cloud is simply better.
So Cloud in a one-on-one fight against Sephiroth was also able to stand up to his physical AND magical power and win. Twice.
There are no more excuses for Sephiroth. Cloud is simply better.
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
Hello Mr Pot, I'd like to talk to you about your racist comments towards Dr. Kettle....
Dark and Divine
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Even so, though the villain's abilities in Dissidia are consistent with the ones displayed in their original games, they seem a little watered down. For instance, i don't see Kefka destroying any towns with Dissidia's Light of Judgement, when it can't even kill a single person who is hit by it.
This can due to the nature of the gameplay, but all the villains don't seem to be the powerhouses they were in their respective games.
On the other hand, Sephiroth's profile in the Theatre Mode seems to provide an insight on his true power.
I don't remember the exact words and I don't have my PSP with me at the moment, but what is stated in Sephiroth's profile is:
Although this might refer to Sephiroth + the Black Materia and not Sephiroth after absorbing and corrupting Lifestream.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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They're not watered down, they just lack the obvious external plot devices that are not relevant to their own intrinsic power. Like Kuja using his own strength versus the entirety of the souls of the Invincible, or Ultimecia using her own innate magic and Junctioning to Griever, versus her incredible power up while in the midst of Time Compression.
There are no towns in Dissidia to destroy. But the Light of Judgment, is the Light of Judgment. He has the power of the Warring Triad within him, and given by the name and intensity of the attack, there's no reason to doubt its power. The fact the heroes survive it is a testament to their strength, not any weakness in Kefka.
Hell, the Onion Knight takes a fully powered Particle Beam from the Cloud of Darkness to the face. An attack that originally killed him. They aren't the same as they used to be. They've improved.
It's a reference to FFVII and the fact that Sephiroth had absorbed a good portion of the lifestream and yes, had the Black Materia, which ironically he has again. Granted the Black Materia of Dissidia is now no longer calling a Meteor that has the potential to literally end all life on the planet, he still is utilizing its magic to invoke an incredibly powerful Meteor spell, which takes extraordinary spirit energy to use. Again, there's no doubt at all to say he's been watered down. These are the villains using their own power, instead of the external power ups the plots of the original game give them.
Dark and Divine
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Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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It also means that no positive evidence for Spacewhales can be found and thus we should not conclude or presume that spacewhales exist. That's what I was getting at when I brought up rational reductionalism. There being no positive evidence in favor of a thing, conclude that said thing is not so. Be willing to revise based on additional evidence, but do not entertain frivolous notions in the absence of verification.
In this case, the 'absence of evidence' for FTL speed leads us to conclude its absence. Not everywhere, but here, at the least.
Actually, I was pointing out that in the small scale, 'absence of evidence' is valid as evidence of absence, at least in the scientific mindset. It is in the large scale where it is still applicable.
That is what my point about 'We must conclude there are no spacewhales, at least not here' is about.
Gale
Read My Mind
I never really understood why the fallacy that because something is fiction basic physical laws don't necessarily apply keeps cropping up in fandoms like this, though you guys have retorted aptly already.
Considering that the basic physics of the world are true to every human experience, there's absolutely no reason to call them into question until a writer deliberately offers an exception. Gaia greatly resembles the modern world - they use normal commodities like cars, rocket ships and trains. The only difference there is that we know they're powered by Mako - something obviously illustrated in the narrative. Even the use of airships isn't too far fetched - various types of airships existed before the advent and popularization of modern planes. It isn't much of a stretch for the audience to assume that Gaia(or specifically Shinra's) technology simply advanced in a different way.
They even go out of their way to explain how materia/magic/limit breaks work. The only time characters do anything that defies physics as we know them is when that individual is shown to possess some enhanced spiritual energy or genetic modification (which personally I find more of a strech, but the vagueness surrounding the exact nature of Jenova cells allows for suspension of disbelief).
But whenever people assume that these narrative elements can break laws of physics to a degree that seems nigh impossible is a gross over-estimate. Beyond that, claiming that these laws simply don't apply is ludicris. As the writers of the material aren't from some bizzaro world, they're working with the same framing for a fictionalized world as the one they live in unless they make an explicit exception. Were someone to write a short story where the protagonist is visited by a ghost it shouldn't call other things we generally except as true into question just because one aspect of life (the absolute nature of death) has been violated. I'd discuss how the aspects of Cloud's Omnislash v.5/6 don't even show true characteristics of lightspeed travel, but other members have already done a more eloquent job in that regard.
I realize this post is a bit of a moot point now in this discussion, but radical assumptions about the nature of a fictional world made simply because the work is fiction is a fallacy I'm quite sick of seeing.
Considering that the basic physics of the world are true to every human experience, there's absolutely no reason to call them into question until a writer deliberately offers an exception. Gaia greatly resembles the modern world - they use normal commodities like cars, rocket ships and trains. The only difference there is that we know they're powered by Mako - something obviously illustrated in the narrative. Even the use of airships isn't too far fetched - various types of airships existed before the advent and popularization of modern planes. It isn't much of a stretch for the audience to assume that Gaia(or specifically Shinra's) technology simply advanced in a different way.
They even go out of their way to explain how materia/magic/limit breaks work. The only time characters do anything that defies physics as we know them is when that individual is shown to possess some enhanced spiritual energy or genetic modification (which personally I find more of a strech, but the vagueness surrounding the exact nature of Jenova cells allows for suspension of disbelief).
But whenever people assume that these narrative elements can break laws of physics to a degree that seems nigh impossible is a gross over-estimate. Beyond that, claiming that these laws simply don't apply is ludicris. As the writers of the material aren't from some bizzaro world, they're working with the same framing for a fictionalized world as the one they live in unless they make an explicit exception. Were someone to write a short story where the protagonist is visited by a ghost it shouldn't call other things we generally except as true into question just because one aspect of life (the absolute nature of death) has been violated. I'd discuss how the aspects of Cloud's Omnislash v.5/6 don't even show true characteristics of lightspeed travel, but other members have already done a more eloquent job in that regard.
I realize this post is a bit of a moot point now in this discussion, but radical assumptions about the nature of a fictional world made simply because the work is fiction is a fallacy I'm quite sick of seeing.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
To be honest, in the original AC I took the 'other Clouds' to be just what he was saying, afterimages because Cloud was just moving that damn fast. I mean even in regular Omnislash he just appears in the next position for a strike, you didn't actually see him move to it. I wasn't making excuses for physics in fiction, I simply didn't think that much into it. Like when you get Hyper Sonic or Hyper Knuckles they leave afterimages as they run.
That said, Omnislash Version 6 makes it pretty clear that they act independently of what Cloud does, the most obvious example is that they all plant his swords into the ground, rather than them just falling back down. And that they all swoop in again at the end as was mentioned. So while I might actually be arguing in favor of the lightspeed thing for version 5, 6 definitely displays them as spiritual doubles (flunkies?
)
That said, Omnislash Version 6 makes it pretty clear that they act independently of what Cloud does, the most obvious example is that they all plant his swords into the ground, rather than them just falling back down. And that they all swoop in again at the end as was mentioned. So while I might actually be arguing in favor of the lightspeed thing for version 5, 6 definitely displays them as spiritual doubles (flunkies?
)
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
Better? Yes. Stronger? No.
EDIT:Cloud is definetely better than Sephiroth in terms of technique, and has good enough reflexes to react to most things Sephiroth can throw at him.
But I woud also say Sephiroth is stronger in terms of brute strength. In fact I would say that strength is what stops him from being as skilled as Cloud. Since he's strong enough to more or less kill anything, he's never had to develop more skill in order to survive, like Cloud did.
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Mitch Connor
Its All Good Enough
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- Blazing782
So are we supposed to assume that Dissidia Sephiroth is weaker than AC Sephiroth, because he really fucked Cloud up sick before he pulled out omnislash ver 6. And unlike all the other villians in Dissidia, Sephiroth looked completely fine after both fights, says he'll always be around, and just walked away unscathed even though he technically loses.
btw does anyone else think they are trying to set up another Sephiroth comeback because i know villians like to say this, but in literally in every game he shows up in, be it FF or something else, he keeps saying he's coming back (a lot more than the other villians).
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Well, considering Sephiroth in Dissidia didn't have any of the power he reaped from the negative lifestream or his plot with Geostigma to further increase his power, yeah. I'd say ACC is the definitive clash between Cloud and Sephiroth. In terms of their power and abilities, these are still Cloud and Sephiroth from around FFVII. Not ACC. Sephiroth in ACC is not only fully alive and powered up with the power of the newly realized Reunion, he's got the negative lifestream he's been creating and absorbing as well. And Cloud now has Omnislash Version 6, and his new swords, rather than just his Buster Sword. The stakes are higher.
I wouldn't say Sephiroth didn't hurt Cloud though, considering in the cutscene Sephiroth is shown to have repeatedly cut up Cloud with one his strikes and brought him to the floor. I mean, it's only due to content ratings and stuff that we don't see the blood and wear Cloud's gone through in Dissidia, fighting Sephiroth. It may not have been as violent and bloody as ACC, but he still is getting hurt.
Sephiroth is like herpies. He only goes in remission. At least, that's what he wants you to think
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DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
Best post ever.
Sollace
•|Welcome to the Real World|•
"Even after appearing in so many titles, Sephiroth's true strength is still unknown. It's stated in the official book "Reunion Files" the Sephiroth seen in Advent Children has "ascended to a new level of existence" and is much stronger than before. Though he was defeated, Sephiroth never used the full extent of his powers in the final fight against Cloud in Advent Children, and because of that his true potential is still unknown. Advent Children producer Yoshinori Kitase has said "Sephiroth's existence and will is extremely powerful. There is nothing stronger, nothing above him". He furthermore states that no character in the world of Final Fantasy VII is stronger than Sephiroth." -Article about Sephiroth on "The Final Fantasy Wiki" which can be found here.
Need I say more?
Need I say more?
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Wouldn't really trust everything you read on the FF wiki, since that uses a quote from the Reunion Files completely out of context.
Kitase's statement is regarding his will, not his physical strength. He said there's no will stronger than Sephiroth's.
On that note, someone really needs to go to the FF wiki and get them to clean up some of their articles. I'd do it myself but that'd be a massive undertaking.
Kitase's statement is regarding his will, not his physical strength. He said there's no will stronger than Sephiroth's.
On that note, someone really needs to go to the FF wiki and get them to clean up some of their articles. I'd do it myself but that'd be a massive undertaking.
Roger
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- Minato
i feel even that is saying to much. When I read through the Director's coommentary, to me, it just seems like that is the idea with which they handled Sephiroth's return. You know, Kadaj summons Bahamut, Kadaj get Jenova's head from Rufus, Kadaj goes batshit on Cloud, Sephiroth politely says "hello", NOW you're screwed. That's the feeling you had when you saw Sephiroth (or supposed to have). That's how I took that quote. I don't think we're suppose too believe that Sephiroth strength/will is forever unovercomeable.
Dark and Divine
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It was also said in the Director's Commentary that Kitase decided that they couldn't make a character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII.
So, while it is true that Sephiroth is the strongest in the FFVII world, people generally quote the wrong statement.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Yeah, but again, that quote probably was in the context of AC, considering later on, they make characters such as Weiss, Nero, and then the being Omega, who arguably reach power levels on par or greater than Sephiroth.
Dark and Divine
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From those, I only consider Omega as more or less equal to Sephiroth, since both of these entities are the ones with control over the Lifestream.