So is Sephiroth the strongest dude in FF7 or what

[Cat Rage Room]

Dude, that sounds like a cop out, man. If we were ONLY talking about FF heroes/villains in the first place, you should have said so as soon as I used an example from outside the series. You wait until I'm 5+ posts in the argument to say "WELL WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT VINSFELD/KRELIAN/ETC". The way the discussion was going we were definitely talking in context of villainy in general. I didn't even begin the discussion limited to just the FF heroes/villains.

 

[OWA-2]

Give it up Mako. Some people (coughOWA-2cough) can't understand the logic of this.

"If Sephiroth is the strongest, why does he keep losing?"

Simple question. Simple answer too: "Because he isn't the strongest".

By that logic, a half-Esper is stronger than the god of magic then.

 

[Dashell]

You've asked this question before, Que. Think about it.

Lol I know I was trying to counter what someone else said.

No you're right I know, Cloud's will is much stronger and in stories like FFVII that's what really matters. That's how he threw Seph over the bridge in the reactor.

Sephiroth doesn't have anyone to make him feel loved, happy, or important. He only has himself. He doesn't have people to care about that force him to go beyond his limits of power because if he doesn't, he'd not only let himself down..he'd be letting the people he cares about, down. There's nothing PUSHING him.

Oh that makes me sad

 

[DrakeClawfang]

So you would agree with me, if I said that a half-Esper is stronger than the god of magic?

Yes I would. He lost didn't he?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dude, that sounds like a cop out, man. If we were ONLY talking about FF heroes/villains in the first place, you should have said so as soon as I used an example from outside the series. You wait until I'm 5+ posts in the argument to say "WELL WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT VINSFELD/KRELIAN/ETC". The way the discussion was going we were definitely talking in context of villainy in general. I didn't even begin the discussion limited to just the FF heroes/villains.

LOL, what part of,

You're gonna compare every FF villain to Xenogears now, aren't you?

The villains have no hope. They want to *crush* hope. They don't have dreams. You're talking about an objective. A desire. That's not the same thing as a conviction or purpose a person see's as greater than themselves that they must go balls out to see come to fruition.

ExDeath wants to send everything to the Void. That's his wish and desire.

Terra wants to fight to see a future where children will have hope and a future to enjoy. Terra would die for that hope and conviction. ExDeath doesn't give a shit because he sees everything as insipid and meaningless. "Victory itself is nothingness."

That's not the same thing. I don't understand how you can equate the Cloud of Darkness wanting to send shit into a vacuum, or Sephiroth wanting to see Cloud suffer and despair, as true personal conviction that moves one to surpass their limits, like fighting against tyranny so that people can truly be free and not endure the pain and suffering of war.

And all my other examples that used exclusively the villains and heroes of FF, didn't let you on to the fact I was only speaking in regards to Dissidia? Especially when this all came about after Dark and Divine's post which was exclusively referring to Dissidia?

He wasn't speaking generally, he was speaking of Dissidia.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

If we're gonna talk about Dissidia, remember the end of the game. A single mortal - true you can choose who but all the heroes are mortals - battles the God of Discord one on one, and wins. And keep in mind that, besides being a God himself, Chaos was a God powerful enough to control all those other god and demi-god villains who served him. AND when the heroes fought Chaos, he was assisted in battle by Shinryu, the mighty dragon that is hinted to be even stronger then Chaos and Cosmos.

So yeah. Consider that, huh?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yes I would. He lost didn't he?

If this is because of Dissidia I'm starting to think that Dissidia is stupid. In the original FF6 it took the might of everyone in almost a dozen strong party to defeat Kefka. Now Terra alone is enough.

And all my other examples that used exclusively the villains and heroes of FF, didn't let you on to the fact I was only speaking in regards to Dissidia? Especially when this all came about after Dark and Divine's post which was exclusively referring to Dissidia?

He wasn't speaking generally, he was speaking of Dissidia.

Fair enough. How about this, then.

Vayne from XII can more or less be considered not unlike Vinsfeld, but in FF.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If we're gonna talk about Dissidia, remember the end of the game. A single mortal - true you can choose who but all the heroes are mortals - battles the God of Discord one on one, and wins. And keep in mind that, besides being a God himself, Chaos was a God powerful enough to control all those other god and demi-god villains who served him. AND when the heroes fought Chaos, he was assisted in battle by Shinryu, the mighty dragon that is hinted to be even stronger then Chaos and Cosmos.

So yeah. Consider that, huh?

I think that's more a gameplay thing, since in the story, all the heroes face down Chaos, and Chaos speaks of all the heroes as having bested him. But you can consider that yeah, one hero was able to overcome a villain who before, took several people to defeat before. Your point still stands.

If this is because of Dissidia I'm starting to think that Dissidia is stupid. In the original FF6 it took the might of everyone in almost a dozen strong party to defeat Kefka. Now Terra alone is enough.

Again. STRENGTH =/= SKILL. STRENGTH =/= BETTER.

You were the same guy who said that being the strongest doesn't mean jack, because a fight isn't determined by who has the bigger muscles/superpowers and shit. Wtf?

Vayne from XII can more or less be considered not unlike Vinsfeld, but in FF.

That's true he is. But...not every FF villain is a Vayne Solidor.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Again. STRENGTH =/= SKILL. STRENGTH =/= BETTER.

You were the same guy who said that being the strongest doesn't mean jack, because a fight isn't determined by who has the bigger muscles/superpowers and shit. Wtf?

There is a pretty big power difference between being one of sixteen people defeating the God of Magic in one scenario, and defeating the same dude by yourself in another.

It's a bit ridiculous and sort of wrecks my suspension of disbelief.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There is a pretty big power difference between being one of sixteen people defeating the God of Magic in one scenario, and defeating the same dude by yourself in another.

It's a bit ridiculous and sort of wrecks my suspension of disbelief.

Did Cloud beating Sephiroth in ACC wreck your suspension of disbelief?

And it was 15 people, not 16...

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The fictional universe doesn't *exist* beyond the plot or the writer. So saying they won only because the writer said so, makes no sense. That goes for EVERYTHING in the scenario. It doesn't exist objectively outside of the creator's own mind. You're speaking of the story as if it's an actual reality.

The thing you called "plot-device" is the actual truth of the story. The villain clearly isn't "better" because they weren't able to win within the bounds of the narrative. That's the only reality that exists. Sephiroth lost because when push came to shove, he couldn't cut it and Cloud bridged the gulf in power between the two with his own willpower, conviction, and drive to win. Cloud wanted it more because for him, winning wasn't just about himself, it was about all the people who were pinning their hopes and lives on his victory.

Be careful with this, man. A lot of writers use this as an excuse to cover up ridiculous shit they write. Sometimes it's just a matter of bad writing. Just because a creator has total creative control of his work doesn't mean it can't be bad or fucking retarded.

Did Cloud beating Sephiroth in ACC wreck your suspension of disbelief?

No, because Cloud was a lot stronger and wasn't one of sixteen (OKAY FIFTEEN (WAIT NO FOURTEEN)) people. Terra has received no such power boost in between installments.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Be careful with this, man. A lot of writers use this as an excuse to cover up ridiculous shit they write. Sometimes it's just a matter of bad writing. Just because a creator has total creative control of his work doesn't mean it can't be bad or fucking retarded.

It's the truth though. It doesn't exist outside of the creator's mind. It's their world that they fashion. I never said it couldn't be bad. Where'd that point even come from?

No, because Cloud was a lot stronger and wasn't one of sixteen people. Terra has received no such power boost in between installments.

The number of party members is a relation to the number of characters in the game, dude. Cloud took on a villain who required 10 people to defeat before. All by himself. With fatal injuries, including a pierced chest and lung, a sword through the foot and knee, and several major slashes. And what power boost did Cloud receive inbetween FFVII and ACC?

Terra was a lot stronger too than everyone else, considering she's a magical being hybrid. So what's your point?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Hold on hold on!

Where are we getting 15, 16 people to beat Kefka?

14 Party members - only 12 can enter the Tower - only four can actually fight Kefka himself.

Sephiroth, 10 people? 8 party members - only six can fight Bizarro Sephiroth - only three can fight Safer Sephiroth. And yeah, + Aeris to an extent.

 

[Roger]

Dissidia maybe canon but the people in it aren't the same. From what i can tell they're souls that were attracted the conflict and were given shape. Kefka most definitely in not the god of all magic in Dissidia, Jecht didn't bring the farplan/sin/whatever made up his strength along with him and Sephiroth doesn't have the Negative Lifestream. They're just in a shape they're familiar with.

EDIT: Only four at a time for Kefka, they get replaced when they die, you can actually use all 12.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It's the truth though. It doesn't exist outside of the creator's mind. It's their world that they fashion. I never said it couldn't be bad. Where'd that point even come from?

No, but you said that in response to OWA's (I believe) point about something being a plot device and not something that should actually really work in the setting's world. In which case is true. Sometimes a creative outcome really IS a plot device and SHOULDN'T have worked otherwise, but it did simply because the creator said it should.

Which doesn't make sense all of the time.

The number of party members is a relation to the number of characters in the game, dude. Cloud took on a villain who required 10 people to defeat before. All by himself. With fatal injuries, including a pierced chest and lung, a sword through the foot and knee, and several major slashes.

Terra was a lot stronger too than everyone else, considering she's a magical being hybrid. So what's your point?

I can make an exception for Cloud and Sephiroth, I'm just saying it can be a bit goofy than all of the heroes are suddenly able to defeat the villains by themselves.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Sephiroth, 10 people? 8 party members - those eight can fight Bizarro Sephiroth - only three can fight Safer Sephiroth. And yeah, + Aeris to an extent.

Fixxed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hold on hold on!

Where are we getting 15, 16 people to beat Kefka?

14 Party members - only 12 can enter the Tower - only four can actually fight Kefka himself.

Sephiroth, 10 people? 8 party members - only six can fight Bizarro Sephiroth - only three can fight Safer Sephiroth. And yeah, + Aeris to an extent.

Gameplay dude.

In the cutscene where you face Kefka, everybody is there. Why would they be sitting out a battle to the death and leave only four people to fight? What are they doing, munching popcorn and enjoying the lightshow while Kefka spams Forsaken and Trine?

Same with FFVII. All the heroes are facing off against Sephiroth. They're all there surrounding him. ACC's opening speaks of all the characters as having gone down there to face Sephiroth. Even their 10th Anniversary profiles speak of them all having a hand in fighting Sephy. So they all had a slice.

Dissidia maybe canon but the people in it aren't the same. From what i can tell they're souls that were attracted the conflict and were given shape. Kefka most definitely in not the god of all magic in Dissidia, Jecht didn't bring the farplan/sin/whatever made up his strength along with him and Sephiroth doesn't have the Negative Lifestream. They're just in a shape they're familiar with.

...How are they not the same? That makes no sense. They are the same characters since their very profiles and the story itself calls them that. They have the abilities that made them who they were in their game, save any external power ups/plot devices.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, but you said that in response to OWA's (I believe) point about something being a plot device and not something that should actually really work in the setting's world. In which case is true. Sometimes a creative outcome really IS a plot device and SHOULDN'T have worked otherwise, but it did simply because the creator said it should.

Which doesn't make sense all of the time.

A plot device is something within the plot, which is the outcome of the story, and is how it went down according to said narrative's author. The story doesn't exist outside of that outcome. It's not an objective reality that can be tested and seen outside of the context of its situation. So saying it happened "just because of X" really doesn't make sense, because that's how it happened and will always happen within said context, unless stated otherwise.

The outcome I'm talking about has been confirmed to be true repeatedly. Let's stick to the topic *here* and not just generally, man. I'm gonna be repeating myself and arguing everything if you keep talking about every single instance of the same thing happening in media

I can make an exception for Cloud and Sephiroth, I'm just saying it can be a bit goofy than all of the heroes are suddenly able to defeat the villains by themselves.

If you can make an exception for Cloud and Sephiroth, make one for Terra and Kefka, since it's the same thing. It's not goofy, it's the plot. Why are you holding a double standard now?

 

[Roger]

Same with FFVII. All the heroes are facing off against Sephiroth. They're all there surrounding him. ACC's opening speaks of all the characters as having gone down there to face Sephiroth. Even their 10th Anniversary profiles speak of them all having a hand in fighting Sephy. So they all had a slice.

DoC makes it clear that Tifa and Vincent weren't there.

...How are they not the same? That makes no sense. They are the same characters since their very profiles and the story itself calls them that. They have the abilities that made them who they were in their game, save any external power ups/plot devices.

Yeah but that's just it didn't they ALL have plot dvices giving them power? Without Magicite much less the Goddess statues, Kefka was nothing (or at least less of then Terra). Sephiroth the SOLDIER was good, but not that far ahead of everyone else, The Emperor doesn't have hell on his side. Ect Ect Ect.

EDIT: Golbez is the same, though.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

A plot device is something within the plot, which is the outcome of the story, and is how it went down according to said narrative's author. The story doesn't exist outside of that outcome. It's not an objective reality that can be tested and seen outside of the context of its situation. So saying it happened "just because of X" really doesn't make sense, because that's how it happened and will always happen within said context, unless stated otherwise.

Which in that case, like I said, can open itself up for some stupid as shit stuff to happen.

If you can make an exception for Cloud and Sephiroth, make one for Terra and Kefka, since it's the same thing. It's not goofy, it's the plot. Why are you holding a double standard now?

You know what, you're right.

It's all goofy.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Gameplay dude.

In the cutscene where you face Kefka, everybody is there. Why would they be sitting out a battle to the death and leave only four people to fight? What are they doing, munching popcorn and enjoying the lightshow while Kefka spams Forsaken and Trine?

Same with FFVII. All the heroes are facing off against Sephiroth. They're all there surrounding him. ACC's opening speaks of all the characters as having gone down there to face Sephiroth. Even their 10th Anniversary profiles speak of them all having a hand in fighting Sephy. So they all had a slice

But that's the thing. All the later FF games show all the heroes gathered to confront the final boss, then the battle starts and boom, just the current party. The exceptions are IX (the other party members *do* help in a way) and XII (where you can change the party in battle).

If Gameplay takes precedence over Plot, though, is itself another debate. They don't always get along.

EDIT: Only four at a time for Kefka, they get replaced when they die, you can actually use all 12.

*rings buzzer*

The dead guys only swap out in between phases. It's not like Ultimecia, where someone dies, they vanish and someone else takes their place a turn later.

 

[Makoeyes987]

DoC makes it clear that Tifa and Vincent weren't there.

What? What are you talking about? Everyone was there in the final battle. Epsecially Tifa...

Yeah but that's just it didn't they ALL have plot dvices giving them power? Without Magicite much less the Goddess statues, Kefka was nothing (or at least less of then Terra). Sephiroth the SOLDIER was good, but not that far ahead of everyone else, The Emperor doesn't have hell on his side. Ect Ect Ect.

No, they didn't. Kefka absorbed the Warring Triad into himself. That's the name of his special ability. That's the source of all of his power now in Dissidia. Why do you think he takes on his angelic appearance?

There are only a few villains who have their plot devices taken out.

Ultimecia isn't the universal being now as she was in FFVIII, in the midst of Time Compression. ExDeath isn't the Void possessed Neo-ExDeath.

Sephiroth is still himself, as he absorbed that spirit energy and added to his own. He's achieved his Reunion. And yes, the Emperor does have hell on his side. Have you not seen his powers and abilities?

 

[Dark and Divine]

DoC makes it clear that Tifa and Vincent weren't there.

They were, it was just after Sephiroth's defeat that they went to Midgar to help evacuate the place.

And I know it was just a minor mistake, but it's Yuffie and Vincent.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But that's the thing. All the later FF games show all the heroes gathered to confront the final boss, then the battle starts and boom, just the current party. The exceptions are IX (the other party members *do* help in a way) and XII (where you can change the party in battle).

That's a gameplay thing. They can't fully have you controlling every single party member in the final fight because that goes beyond the scope of the battle system. It's a limitation.

Again, see FFVII's 10th Anniversary Ultimania. It speaks of *all* of them facing off against Sephiroth within the Northern Crater. Not just 3 people.

FFIX is different because it gives a reason as to why only 4 members can face off against Necron. That's true.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Again, see FFVII's 10th Anniversary Ultimania. It speaks of *all* of them facing off against Sephiroth within the Northern Crater. Not just 3 people.

Not entirely relevant I admit, but what about Yuffie and Vincent?